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| Topical Use of Products containing gelatin? |
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| Ruqayyah |
| 02/26/02 at 16:01:03 |
| [slm] I have a quick q- I know we're not allowed to ingest any substance that has gelatin in it, but is a topical use of it allowed? One of my friends asked me this question, because her facial cleanser has gelatin in it (go figure) and she was wondering if I would be able to use it. Any answers? Jazakallah khair in advance :-* [wlm] Ruqayyah |
| Re: Topical Use of Products containing gelatin? |
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| bhaloo |
| 02/26/02 at 18:14:40 |
| [slm] [quote author=Ruqayyah link=board=madrasa;num=1014757263;start=0#0 date=02/26/02 at 16:01:03] [slm] I have a quick q- I know we're not allowed to ingest any substance that has gelatin in it, but is a topical use of it allowed? [/quote] This is not correct to say, as there is gelatin made via vegetables which all scholars hold as permissible. Gelatin made by animal products also maybe from animals such as cows and some scholars differ in this regard, (i wont get into the discussion about meats slaughtered from ahl-kitab). Other scholars also say that gelatin is permissible as it has undergone a chemical change (such as the view expressed below by Sheikh Darsht {may Allah have mercy on his soul)). The best thing to do is to consult your local scholar. I'll also put up the fatawa from islam-qa.com as well. Pepsi Cola - Halal or Haram? Dr. S. Darsh with an introduction by Abu Muntasir ------------------------------------------------------------------------ We need to be very careful when pronouncing anything to be forbidden by Allah. In addition we should also fear Allah in creating difficulties for Muslims or subjecting them to the inconveniences of unecessary restrictions. Recently some query and discussion has been taking place with regards to Pepsi and possibly Coca Cola containing a small amount of alcohol and how we should view such beverages. Shaikh al-Albani’s view is that change purifies substances that had originally been deemed prohibited. A brother Tamim kindly pointed out with due care and caution that Shaikh Albani apparently also hold it permissible to eat e.g., chocolate bars containing intoxicating substances in small quantities. This is because even if one were to eat say a 100 such chocolate bars, one would not become intoxicated. He drew our attention to the shaikh mentioning the hadith of when a rat fell in some ghee (clarified butter). They simply removed the rat and threw out the ghee that they saw had been contaminated around where the rat had fallen. The rest of the ghee was still considered pure. The shaikh’s analogy was with regards to the fact that some remnants of the rat falling in the container of ghee were still in there, but it was still considered pure. He also clarified the other hadith, "that if something is considered impermissible then small quantities are also impermissible" where the shaikh agreed that if the small quantity is enough, where you take it numerous times it will have the same effect as the original dose, then it is not permissible. However, in the case of alcohol in the chocolate which is so minute, that even if one eats a 100 bars one will not become drunk, then this ruling doesn’t apply here...thus harmonizing the aforementioned situation and the latter hadith. Subsequently Ali Al-Timimi confirmed that Ibn Baz has a similar Fatwa which can be found in a booklet distributed by the Saudi Embassy entitled Fatawa al-Mughtarib. He said the rule is does consumption lead to drunkenness even if large quantities are drunk. Since it is apparent that drinking large amount of Pepsi does not lead to intoxication it is therefore not haram to consume. Here are some notes from Dr. S. Darsh (may Allah have mercy on him) where he discusses the issue of food additives. He wrote the following in 1992! Abu Muntasir -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ADDITIVES Additives are chemical elements. They are no more considered as the original material from which they are derived, the fiqh rule is: any change in the substance entails change in the rule’. This is the answer I give to those who inquire about what foods today are Halal. Many try to argue that any additive which contains an element of Haram makes a food itself Haram, based on the hadith, "any flesh grows out of suht (unlawful food) will not enter Paradise’. But there are two aspects to this: first, suht means unlawful. Ibn Mas’oud explained this word which is recorded in chapter 5 verse 42 of Tafseer Ibn Katheer as meaning ‘one who takes bribes’. Thus, Ibn Katheer first explained suht generally as anything unlawful or derived from unlawful means. Second, this hadith is weak, (see Kashful Khafa vol.2 page 176). |
| Use of Products containing gelatin? pt 2 |
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| bhaloo |
| 02/26/02 at 18:16:42 |
The Hanafi Position Going to the substance of the letter. The purity of an additive is based upon the principle described (the change of the nature of the substance) . In vol. 1, page 314, Hashiya ibn Abedin, Radd al Muhtar ala ad-durr al Mukhtar, a standard Hanafi fiqh text book, written by Muhammad Ala’a al Deen Al Hasafki, there are more than thirty purifying things mentioned by Al Hasafki (rendered into a poetry form to make it easy to memorize) . In one line he said, ‘and change of substance" . Ibn Abedin said, "the swine which drowns in a salt lake, after decomposition, becomes salt and thus halal". Ibn Abedin based his comments on the saying of Al Hasafki regarding the manufacturing of vinegar made from wine. "According to the principle of change of substance, vinegar made of wine is lawful". He then went on to say, "Vinegar made by mixing wine with water, according to the correct opinion, is pure" One page 315, Al Hasafki has said that "soap made from impure oil is pure and can be used. Ibn Abedin, commenting on this said, "This is an example of change of substance". he then went on to quote a statement issued by Al Mugtaba which reinforced Al Hasafki’s view that pure soap could be derived from oil that was not pure. A similar position was reflected by Muhammad ibn Al Hasan, the second great pupil of Abu Hanifa. According to Ibn Abedin, the fat of a dead animal, used to make soap is subject to the same conditions. The expression used was impure (najas) as opposed to mutanajjis which means to make impure. However, oil is usually used in preference to other fatty substances. However, reading Al Munyah, I found an explanation which supports the first view, he states, "If a man or dog falls into the container in which soap is being made, it remains pure". Ibn Abedin goes on to say, "Know that a compound is deemed pure, according to Muhammad ibn Al Hasan, from the rule which allows for change of substance". In addition, he adds that any product or substance, not only soap, can also be judged pure on account of its widespread use. One page 326, on the subject of change of substance, as if to reinforce the point, al Hasafki says that dust and smoke particles rising from burnt human or animal excrement cannot be judged impure. If it were, he says, then we would be forbidden to eat bread baked on fires in which such impurities were used as fuel. The same can be said for salt filtered from animal-contaminated lakes. This, concludes Ibn Abedin, is how any product or substance is judged to be pure or otherwise. Muhammad Al Dakhira, Al Muhit and Abu Hanifa are all of the same opinion. Other shaikhs choose to follow this ruling as well. This is the chosen rule for the Shar’iah ruled that these things were impure in their nature. The reality of a thing changes with the change of some of its implied parts, not to mention all of them. Salt is totally different from meat and bones. If they become salt, they are salt. What is similar to that in the Shar’iah is the life-germ (sperm), the beginning of human life. From a Hanafi point of view it is impure, then it is turned into a clot, it is still impure, then it becomes a lump of flesh and at this point it becomes pure. The same goes for wine juice. it is pure, when it becomes wine it becomes impure, but when it turns to vinegar, it becomes pure. This is as far as the Hanafi school is concerned. |
| 02/26/02 at 18:17:25 |
| bhaloo |
| Re: Topical Use of Products containing gelatin? |
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| bhaloo |
| 02/26/02 at 18:16:57 |
The Hanbali position The Hanbali school’s attitude is quite different. In al Mughni by Ibn Qudamah, a Hanbali standard book, in the book of purity, section on utensils, he writes: ‘No impure thing could turn into pure as a result of the change in its substance except wine when it changes by itself into vinegar’. But it could be deduced that all impure things become pure as a result of the change of its nature, analogous to the change of wine to vinegar is the skin of a dead animal when tanned and the domestic, edible birds and animal which eat excretion. The Literalist position According to the Literalist School: Ibn Hazm, the exponent of the Literalist school wrote in his manual (Al Muhalla) volume 1, page 166, problem no. 132: ‘If the excretion of the animal is burnt down or changed and becomes ashes or dust, all that becomes pure and can be used for tayammum (earth purification) . The proof of that is the fact that rules are in accordance with what Allah Most High, has ruled regarding the objects in what the object is named. If the name of the object is changed or dropped, the previous rule is dropped as well. It is something from that which Allah has named’. As such, excretion is different from dust, as it is different from ashes. The same thing with wine which is different from vinegar and human being is different from the blood from which he is created. The dead thing is different from dust or ashes. In problem 136, page 178, he goes on to say: ‘If the quality of the substance of naturally impure object changes the name which was given to it so that it is no more applicable to it and it is given a new name which is given to a pure object, so it is no more an impure thing. It becomes a new object, with a new rule. The same thing is true of a pure thing changing into impure thing such as juice becoming wine or the wine becoming vinegar. The pork flesh eaten by a chicken and becoming a chicken flesh. It is halal. The water becoming wine or the food turning into excretion, the excretion and the wine used as fertilizer or becoming a fruit and so many other things. Al Qur’an The basis of all these is the Qur’anic verse: ‘And surely there is a lesson for you in the cattle we give you to drink of what is in their bellies from between the faeces and blood, pure milk, wholesome to those who drink it’ (16-66) Allah Most High, considers it one of the favours He bestowed upon people that a healthy pure animal product comes out of these impure things. Conclusion In the light of what is mentioned above, and the widespread use of so many things which are becoming essential needs for Muslim communities living in a non-Islamic environment, any substance which chemically changed from its original character becomes a new product and acceptable to use. This includes: 1. Chemical preservatives, i.e. all E’ numbers 2. Soap made from fat, animal products or oil, deemed impure in its original form 3. Toothpaste 4. Wine Vinegar 5. Gelatin and products containing it To obtain gelatin from animal protein, it has to undergo a lengthy chemical process described in the Oxford dictionary of science as follows: ‘A colourless or pale yellow, water-soluble protein obtained by boiling collagen with water and evaporating the solution. It melts when water is added and dissolves in hot water to form a solution that sets to a gel on cooling’ (page 290) This description shows the great change it undertakes and the new name it takes. On considering part of the Qur’anic verse of chapter 16 I quoted earlier, it is clear this process is like or similar to the process of obtaining milk out of the dirt inside the belly of the animal which Allah described as wholesome, palatable and pure. In fact, most of the new products which are containing such chemical elements are obtained by chemical processes. These processes are not a mere mixing up of what is Haram with what is Halal. it is a real change. Protein is different from gelatin. As such it is pure and can be used in products which are allowed. Vinegar, milk and salt are all examples of products extracted from impure substances. In fact the Hanafi view in this connection is much more advanced and liberal, particularly when we study the purifying aspects mentioned by Ad-Durr Al Mukhtar, which, by the way, includes boiling, tanning, slaughtering and dividing. To hasten to say Haram without considering the process of change, to look into the original without considering the new product shows the inability to understand the world of science and chemistry advanced as it is nowadays and ignoring the needs of the Muslim communities in their new environment. May Allah guide us on the right way. |
| Re: Topical Use of Products containing gelatin? |
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| bhaloo |
| 02/26/02 at 18:18:23 |
| [slm] From islam-qa.com http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=210&dgn=3 |
| Re: Topical Use of Products containing gelatin? |
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| humble_muslim |
| 02/27/02 at 11:58:41 |
| [slm] OK now I'm really confused. We seem to have two opposite views, the fist being that changing the haram chemically makes it halal, the second that change the haram can never make it halal. So what to do ? |
| NS |
| Re: Topical Use of Products containing gelatin? |
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| Abu_Hamza |
| 02/27/02 at 19:25:35 |
| [slm] [quote]So what to do?[/quote] The same thing you do anytime there is a difference of opinion among *real* scholars bro :) If there is one opinion that *clearly* seems to be stronger, not just according to you but according to the majority of the scholars of our time and the time before, then you take that opinion and stick with it. Still respecting the other opinion, and recognizing that others may choose to follow it. If both seem equally strong, then the best thing to do is to choose the safest way. And insha Allah since we are not mujtahids, the fault is not on us if we followed the wrong opinion. It is the fault of the mujtahid, and even he will not be held accountable for it, insha Allah. Because as the Prophet [saw] is reported to have said, the mujtahid gets two rewards if he's right, and one if he's wrong in his ijtihaad. Walhamdulillah. P.S. The absolutely wrong thing to do would be to follow that opinion which seems to be the easier one, even though its evidence makes no sense to you or other scholars. Wassalamu alaikum wa rahmatullah. |
| 02/27/02 at 19:26:17 |
| Abu_Hamza |
| Re: Topical Use of Products containing gelatin? |
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| Graced |
| 03/07/02 at 14:14:16 |
| :-) I am a relatively new convert, about 8 months. I am thrilled to see this topic as I have a question along these same lines. Prior to converting I used wine to cook with. I always boiled the wine, so that the alcohol content would burn off. I have a friend that tells me I cannot cook with wine even if I boil the alcohol off, but this makes no sense to me at all. Are there any Fatwa's that specifically address this issue? Thanks in advance for your responses. |
| Re: Topical Use of Products containing gelatin? |
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| bhaloo |
| 03/07/02 at 14:26:44 |
| [slm] Welcome to the board Graced. From what I know alcohol doesn't completely evaporate so there is still alcohol in there. I think it was M.F. or Kathy that mentioned some substitutes, like red vinegar? Or maybe it was something else. But this was from islam-qa.com. Question: Is it permissible to eat dishes cooked with alcohol? It is well-known that alcohol evaporates with heat. Answer: Praise be to Allaah. It is not permissible to eat dishes cooked with alcohol, as ALL the alcohol is not evaporated with cooking or heat. Refer to the following, quoted from the famous Mayo Clinic: [Begin quote] Many people believe that because alcohol is sensitive to heat, it is eliminated with cooking. However, not all the alcohol content of alcoholic drinks is removed with heat; it depends on the type and time of cooking. For instance if you add beer or wine to boiling liquid, then immediately remove it from the heat, 85 per cent of the alcohol content will remain. If you light the alcohol, as in flambé dishes, 75 per cent will remain. Even after simmering the dish for one and a half hours, it will still have 20 per cent of the original alcohol content. It is only if you simmer the mixture for two or more hours, (as you would with a wine-based beef casserole), that as little as five to 10 per cent of the original alcohol content remains. Mayo Clinic Health Oasis http://www.mayohealth.org |
| Re: Topical Use of Products containing gelatin? |
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| Graced |
| 03/07/02 at 14:45:46 |
| Hmmm, well then my question still remains as I use the wine to make spaghetti sauce and it cooks for at least 8 hours, I really try to cook it for 10 hours (old sicilian recipe). Insha' Allah, I'll be forgiven if I've done wrong. Graced. |
| Re: Topical Use of Products containing gelatin? |
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| humble_muslim |
| 03/08/02 at 09:09:19 |
| [slm] Why not use grape juice ? |
| NS |
| Re: Topical Use of Products containing gelatin? |
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| M.F. |
| 03/08/02 at 14:45:30 |
| [quote author=bhaloo link=board=madrasa;num=1014757263;start=0#8 date=03/07/02 at 14:26:44][slm] It is only if you simmer the mixture for two or more hours, (as you would with a wine-based beef casserole), that as little as five to 10 per cent of the original alcohol content remains. [/quote] So five to ten per cent of the original alcohol still stays in the food even after simmering it for two or more hours. You can never really tell if all the alcohol's gone even if you cook it for 8 hours. I'd say if there's a doubt about something like that it's better to avoid it. I've heard that fruit juice is a good substitute for wine but I've never actually tried it. Whenever anything calls for wine I usually dissolve a bouillon cube in water :D I'm sure the flavor is completely different from what it should be. I might try grape juice sometimes, but my husband hates it because it reminds him of wine; so I don't know how I'll ever buy any :) By the way Graced: [glow=red,2,300] WELCOME TO ISLAM AND WELCOME TO MADINA!!! [/glow] :) :) :) Al hamdu lillah it's always a blessing to meet a new sister |
| Re: Topical Use of Products containing gelatin? |
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| talib_ilm |
| 03/09/02 at 15:58:44 |
| [slm] On the authority of Abu Muhammad al-Hasan ibn 'Alee ibn Abee Taalib (radiAllaahu 'anhumaa), the grandson of the Messenger of Allaah (sallAllaahu alayhi wa sallam), and the one much loved by him, who said: I memorised from the Messenger of Allaah (sallAllaahu alayhi wa sallam): Leave that which makes you doubt for that which does not make you doubt. [It was related by at-Tirmidhee and an-Nasaa'ee, with at-Tirmidhee saying that it was a good and sound (hasan saheeh) hadeeth.] This is hadeeth 11 from Imam Nawawi's 40th hadeeth. Graced, I think it might be better to avoid using wine in cooking if you are in doubt as po whether it is halal or haram. This reminds me of a hadeeth or is it an ayah in which it is said that the Halal is clear and the Haram is clear but in between them is the doubtful matters. I will look for this hadeeth or ayah and post it Insha-Allah. And Allah know Best! [wlm] Kareem |
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