A R C H I V E S
Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| Should we go back? |
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| UmmAbdulRahman |
| 02/27/02 at 18:48:28 |
| [slm] I was listening to a radio talk show today on my way home from work and the host of the show was absolutely *bashing* Islam and Muslims-not terrorism. The words this guy was stating ever so bluntly really started to bother me...all the talk about racial profiling and how it is completely justified and how if he got on a plane with an arab, he would get off and take his family with him. He bluntly said he doesn't like Muslims and that we are ALL "guilty until proven innocent." Anyways, this talk show had all of these people calling in and expressing their support and agreement with what the host was stating. I was surprised about that...I suddenly felt so...I don't know...sad-and angry. The media suddenly has a license to say whatever they want about Islam and Muslims and it seems like a manifestation of what was only hidden before but was always there (although maybe in a lesser degree?). So, I started to feel like how can I live here? It seems like all the efforts of the Muslim people who worked to establish Muslims here-socially, politically, economically- were in vain. I started thinking that maybe I should go [i]back[/i] to where my parents are from-even though I consider the US my home because it's what I know-it's the language I speak and it's my biggest comfort zone. I am curious to know if any of you have considered going back to your native countries or moving to a Muslim country after 9-11. If not, I wonder why... |
| 02/27/02 at 18:49:20 |
| UmmAbdulRahman |
| Re: Should we go back? |
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| Kashif |
| 02/27/02 at 20:50:40 |
| assalaamu alaikum If the option to move back 'home' presents itself, it would be something to try and grasp with both hands, i say. I have two thoughts that come to mind: 1> The person you heard should just be ignored. Just as there are closed-minded people like him, similarly you'll find people who are not Muslim denounce racial profiling, and stand up with Muslims to help them ensure they get their rights, and post 9/11 we've heard of numerous accounts of this. 2> I think that the closed-minded people - or at least people who don't think for themselves - outnumber those who do. Why are you so shocked at hearing the words you did? Did you really expect to hear words of justice & deliberation coming from within a nation that has rejected God and removed Him almost completely from their lives? Its like, why are you disappointed that the disbeliever is talking and acting like a disbeliever? Kashif Wa Salaam |
| NS |
| Re: Should we go back? |
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| Mary |
| 02/28/02 at 00:10:16 |
| As-salaamu alaikum Kashif and UmmAbdul Rahman Inshallah I will be able to express what I want to say clearly. First, as for going back to your country. If you are able and it is what you want, well then by all means go. But go because you want to and it is what is best for you. If what you said about this (the US) feeling like your home is true, why let some ignorant people take it from you. OUr being here and being visible, behaving as true Muslims even against all that we face is a type of da'wah. Yes it is very hard to be the one that everyone looks at when you enter a room. And yes some of those eyes will be filled with hate. But I disagree that there would be more people that are closed minded than open to new things. Some will be friendly, smile talk to you. Maybe the others just don't understand, are a bit afraid. To shy to meet your eye and ask questions. Perhaps because we are already on the defensive we take their staring or silence to mean they hate or distrust us. There is always going to be prejudice. Every group has faced it. I remember a friend talking about not letting her son go out in the evening even just to walk to the store because he is black. everyone would assume he was up to no good. I have seen security in a store single out some people because of their race or age. My son told me that he and is friends were stopped by the police in a mall parking lot while walking from the movies to Taco Bell accross the lot, because they were teens. I think it is in how we react to the prejudice that makes an impression. do we run and or hide. (I almost did after 9/11. I am a fairly new revert and had only been covering for 6months. I was unsure of what to do .I even thought about not wearing a head cover, but then my feelings about what I have the right to wear, to do and believe kicked in.) Or do we stand proud to be Muslims. Here we have the choice, remember in some Muslim countries women can't cover and men can't have beards. Everyone isn't always going to agree with us , and not everyone will be nice. But here, Elhamduallah we have the choice. Inshallah we remain strong and make the right choices. Sorry about the rambling. As-salaamu alaikum |
| Re: Should we go back? |
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| Kashif |
| 02/28/02 at 05:21:22 |
| assalaamu alaikum I see where you're coming from Mary although i don't agree totally with what you say. After listing all the incidents of prejudice that you have (and there are worse) the question to ask is, is it worth living in such an environment which by ALL indications seems to be getting worse as opposed to better? I think the issue would be a lot more strightforward if Muslim countries chose to respect individual rights as opposed to the dictatorial-harsh regimes they are. Kashif Wa Salaam |
| NS |
| 02/28/02 at 05:22:58 |
| Kashif |
| Re: Should we go back? |
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| Mary |
| 02/28/02 at 12:37:58 |
| As-salaamu alaikum I guess my views about this might be a bit one sided, I am an American. This is my country, so I don't have the option to give up on it and leave. My husband used to think all the time about someday going home. But the last few times we were there he was not happy. to be with family yes, but not in a place that as you implied does not respect the individuals rights. The gap between the way things should be and the way they are is enormous. I think that we all, Muslims and Non-Muslims alike have the responsibility to strive to make the gap smaller. I know that no one alone can close it, but trying and reaching even one other person makes it better. (Must be enough out of me... I'm beginning to hear the Disney tune It's a Small Small World running thru my head.) Salaams |
| Re: Should we go back? |
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| eleanor |
| 02/28/02 at 15:39:09 |
| [slm] Mash Allah Mary I'm with you on this one :) UmAbdulRahman, don't let stuff like this get you down. You should hear some of the stuff I have to listen to here in Germany. It's even more unreal. My husband always says you should never walk looking at the sky. Otherwise you'll trip and fall. What he means is you should never keep on comparing yourself or your situation to that of those above you, instead keep your eyes on the ground and think of our brothers and sisters who are being persecuted and abused physically as well as emotionally. I don't mean to be giving a lecture here. I'm not denying how difficult it can be. For instance in my class at the moment we are split into three groups to make a commercial. You can choose for a yoghurt, a mobile phone or a bank/insurance. Well one of the other groups came up with this idea of having a suicide bomber making his farewell call on the mobile phone, then he detonates himself and at the end you see how only the mobile phone survived the blast. I felt sick to my stomach when I heard their idea. Alhamdulillah they decided not to do it. But only because it would have been difficult to realise without a large budget. Sometimes I'd like to move far away too. But I'd also like to move somewhere where I fit in. Now I've overtaken from Mary for being the rambler around here :) wasalaam eleanor :-* |
| Re: Should we go back? |
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| Abu_Hamza |
| 02/28/02 at 15:51:08 |
| [slm] I think whether or not one should stay in a non-Muslim country is a decision that everyone must make for themselves. There is also some scholarly discussion on this, which I will not get into here. You can look it up over the internet if you are really interested :) As far as moving away simply because of the Islam bashing and the tough opposition towards Muslims and anything Islamic ... I don't think that's what is expected from the Believers, wallahu a'lam. Wasn't the Prophet [saw] and his companions more ridiculed, opposed and harrassed than any one of us? Wasn't all this done to him by his own people? But he remained in Makkah for 13 years before moving to Madinah, where he saw the opportunity to establish an Islamic state right away. The point is that we are going to be ridiculed and opposed wherever we go. This has always been done to those who are working for the Truth. The Qur'an is filled with stories of Prophets and people of the past to whom this happened. But the response from us is not to give up and leave like Yunus (as) did before he was punished for doing so by spending 3 nights in the belly of the whale, but to stand firm and continue to give the message in the face of unfair treatment and hardships, with patience and Trust in Allah (swt). Just my two cents. Wallahu a'lam. Wassalamu alaikum wa rahmatullah |
| 02/28/02 at 15:52:01 |
| Abu_Hamza |
| Re: Should we go back? |
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| UmmAbdulRahman |
| 02/28/02 at 18:09:15 |
| [slm] I have spoken to groups of non-Muslims a few times about Islam and of course, have come across people who are not listening to learn, but to criticize. Of course, anyone who lives in the West has seen the stereotyping, misjudging/interpreting, and the injustice that has been done against Islam and Muslims. I think what surprised me about the radio show was the definitive and explicit nature of the comments that were made. Just as you mentioned, brother Kashif, there were many instances of support from non-Muslims after 9-11-it was overwhelming at times in our particular community. I think many of us hold on to this support because it makes us feel like there is hope in rebuilding and re-establishing our efforts here. Of course we have to remember, all good things come from Allah. The reality is is that as Muslims, we will always face opposition, even as sister Mary stated, in Muslim countries. The reality is profound now more than ever, I think. Some Muslims who live in the West have been living in the lap of luxury their whole lives that facing the reality now seems like a difficult concept to grasp. |
| Re: Should we go back? |
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| Mary |
| 03/01/02 at 00:04:07 |
| [slm] Recently Kathy I and my husband spoke of Islam at a local church . My husband began with a prayer. At the end during the Q&A part one of the woman admitted that "When you started off singing that prayer It made me kind of nervous. The arabic scared her because during the news when they talk of terrorism she hears that same "singing" in the back ground. I guess at some point she admitted that Muslims scared her too. We talked for quite a while to her and the others. and Elhamduallah we must have had a positive effect. She wrote the following thank you. 2/26 Good morning, Just a parishner of Fr. Stan who wanted to thank you for coming to Saint Rita's Enjoyed you company and all that you told us. Mary and Kathy were especially enlightning. Do hope I get to meet them on the street or in a store sometime. It was a good afternoon. This is the kind of bridge building I feel we need to do. Before that day Muslims and the sound of the Qu'ran scared her. Now inshallah if she sees a Muslim woman she won't be staring out of fear of something she does not understand, but she will be looking to see if it might be someone she knows. Allah knows |
| Re: Should we go back? |
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| Kathy |
| 03/01/02 at 10:21:02 |
| [slm] Wow Mary- I gotta hear about these letters on line? :o Alhumdullillah- May Allah swt accept it from us. A woman was sexually abused as a child. She has 6 kids and has never left them with anyone to babysit. Last week she had to have someone watch them. She picked a Muslimah neighbor- whom she only knows thru School Meetings. Now that is what I call excellent Dawah! |
| Re: Should we go back? |
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| eleanor |
| 03/01/02 at 15:06:32 |
| [slm] I couldn't begin to count the number of times I've seen news stories about terrorism where with impeccable timing, just as the reporter says "Islamic terrorists" they cut to scenes of Muslims with hands raised in dua or else in sujood.... I'm not surprised that the woman was scared. It's all this subliminal indoctrination from our beloved media >:( wasalaam eleanor :-* |
| Re: Should we go back? |
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| zomorrud |
| 03/02/02 at 10:08:42 |
| assalamu alaikum, I think the question of 'going back' should also include the tangents of reformation of 'the home country'. I suspect that it is not just a world/media conspiracy that Muslims are being touted as terrorists and plain uncivilized. *We* - meaning Muslims living in so-called Muslim countries- contribute greatly to such image. It is lots of toil for a Muslim to actually live in a Muslim country these days, and manage to stay true to 'al-amr bil ma'roof and nahy 'an al-munkar' principles [enjoining cood and forbidding evil]. Let's face it, most of Muslims who immigrated to European & N. American countries did so because they were fleeing economic, social and political 'disaster' areas. The call to Islam [dawa] came as an afterthought for many (I hope I am not over-generalizing). That's is OK I think, mind you, for Muslims to seek a more stable living environment. For the short-term, that was a good solution. But that turned out to be a less than ideal long-term solution and indicative of a myopic vision. You see, as more Muslims channelled to N. American & European countries away from their homes, the more so-called Muslim regimes became iron-fisted and more secure from elements of opposition. At the same time, the immigrant Muslims were initially (until very recently) very secure in their newly-found homes and religated building a politically strong community to the far future, after getting an education, securing a job, buying the house, etc. So do we repeat previous mistakes and pack up at the first sign of trouble and antagonism? Well, I guess each person has to review the reasons why they came here in the first place. If the reason has been fulfilled and/or no longer applicaple, I think it is time to go. Where to is another separate question. Take care Wassalam |
| NS |
| Re: Should we go back? |
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| jannah |
| 03/02/02 at 13:18:24 |
| wlm, interesting discussion, i think this should be a personal question every person asks themself: what is their purpose wherever they are living and would they be a better muslim living somewhere else? if the answer is yes, then by all means i think it's important for them to move. btw i think it's unfair of us to judge our parents and their generation as only coming here for the money and that they didn't think about the future etc. most of them were escaping political and economic oppression and only wanted the best for their children. |
| Re: Should we go back? |
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| se7en |
| 03/02/02 at 13:33:05 |
| Walaikum salaam, I completely disagree with those who say we should go back. In a sense, I think it is giving in to our nafs. Since when do Muslims run away when under pressure? I think there is tremendous opportunity for Muslims in the West, both financially and Islamically. SubhanAllah, it was the jihad of the sahaba to go into the midst of those without knowledge of Islam to teach them about it. Muslims all over the world would jump at the opportunity to speak at public forums about Islam in the US, organize conferences on campuses here, have access to mainstream media, and to attain levels of education scholarship completely absent in the Muslim world. Believe it or not, many foreign Muslims that I've met attest that Islam is better understood and practiced in the West. So here, we can publish books, organize television and radio programs, and help a nation of people who know little about the Truth. How can we runaway from this because of some hatred and bad looks from people? This is the essence of mujaahida. The more you difficulty we face, the more reward we get. I mean my brother said there is a niqaabi sister who works at his company. How many Muslim countries would allow that? We have to rise up to the challenge. |
| Re: Should we go back? |
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| ahmer |
| 03/02/02 at 15:38:50 |
| [slm] I think the notion of 'running back' can be an impulsive reaction which is understandable, but when you think of the proper response it's really self-evident. The dawah is the only tool to fight back this offense. There are so many oppurtunities in this land. Subhan'Allah everything can be used to propagate Islam and results do come. Allah says in Surah Kahf, "Thou wouldst only, perchance, fret thyself to death, following after them, in grief, if they believe not in this Message. " We all should feel the same grief for everyone who is not Muslim, the grief of the Prophet[saw]. If we are doing what is supposed to be done, then there is no need to worry, like Imam Zaid said, "Don't expect everyone to accept Islam at once, they will do it slowly and one by one" How many of us have thought of the simple fact that every shopping mall has special community tables which we can hire and setup a dawah table anyday to inform thousands of people?? Simple things like these.. How many of us have tried to educate people. It took a few Arab traders to introduce Islam to Indonesia, they did not even know the language, just their business dealings and practices told everyone what Islam is! We should always remember the Hadith when the Prophet Muhammad [saw] said "If the Hour comes and you are planting a seed finish planting it", which is really telling us a lot about how to act in these situations. Imam Zaid Shakir once quoted in a speech the story of Ammar bin Yassir[r.a] Subhan'Allah. He and his family were amongst those who were tortured severely by the Quraysh. The severest form of mental torture that he endured was seeing his mother Summayya (the first shaheed in islam) murdered before his eyes. To ease this pain the Prophet would continuously say to them, "Patience O'family of Yassir, for you are destined for paradise." Imam Zaid pointed out that we are in a far far better position. We have seen nothing worse here but our salvation lies in bringing others to Islam. This is the only way 'running out'. If we can turn one person's life to Islam we are 'eligible' to run towards jannah and what better running away that is.!! :) Wallahu Alam.. [wlm] ahmer |
| Re: Should we go back? |
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| Asim |
| 03/02/02 at 18:24:38 |
| Assalaamu alaikum, Inshallah, I will raise a few points to think about. I believe the question that we should ask ourselves is can we assure the Islamic future of our kids (not just ourselves)? Few of our parents’ generation kids survived. The survivors have strengthened themselves and developed some defenses (so they are reasonably safe). Children are defenseless. Are we reasonably confident that our children wouldn’t lose their Islam? (in a more hostile environment, etc, but on the other hand, in a more Islamically active community, as compared to our parents’ generation) Another point is that of control. Before 9/11, Muslims were confident about their future by building schools and mosques, etc. After 9/11, they suddenly became the focus (if not a target). Perceptions among the non-Muslims changed and even laws were modified against us. Who is to say that other such events could make life miserable for Muslims in the West? The sudden exposure that Islam received and the increase in the number of converts was not due to anything good we did. Allah Willed it to happen that way. (We should take advantage of this opportunity). An Islamic center in our community was completely destroyed by vandals. Is a ‘Bosnia’ possible here in the future? These are some of the questions we should be asking and working to achieve satisfactory answers for them. As pointed out earlier, there is scholarly difference of opinion on this issue, otherwise it won’t have been just a matter of personal decision. Also, the ‘Muslim’ countries (especially their cities) have most of the bad that the west has. Ibn Kathir’s The Signs Before the Day of Judgment is always an interesting read. I remembered this from the book (p. 12) narrated by Hudhayfah ibn al-Yamaan: … I asked, ‘What if there is no main body and no leader?’ He (the prophet [saw]) said, ‘Isolate yourself from all of these sects, even if you have to eat the roots of trees until death overcomes you while you are in that state.’ Just my 2 cents of jumbled thoughts :) And Allah knows best. P.S. Se7en, your nafs theory is not fool proof :) I would think the nafs would also prevent us from moving from the comforts of the west to a third world country… But, I understand your point :) Wasalaam. |
| 03/02/02 at 23:14:57 |
| Asim |
| Re: Should we go back? |
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| Kashif |
| 03/02/02 at 19:25:34 |
| [quote author=se7en link=board=madrasa;num=1015050411;start=0#13 date=03/02/02 at 13:33:05]I completely disagree with those who say we should go back. In a sense, I think it is giving in to our nafs.[/quote] wa alaikum us-salaam Perhaps the desire to move to a Muslim country is, rather than giving into the nafs, actually in compliance with the command of the Prophet sallallahu alaihi wa sallam to separate from the non-believers, just as he said "the fires of a Muslim and the fires of a non-Muslim should not be able to see each other." Or perhaps the desire stems from the guilt one feels when you see what your tax pounds/dollars are used for in the Muslim world, and even closer to home. Kashif Wa Salaam |
| NS |
| 03/02/02 at 19:32:51 |
| Kashif |
| Re: Should we go back? |
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| BroHanif |
| 03/02/02 at 19:50:06 |
| Salaams, For those thinking of going back where would you go ???? India ? Pakistan ? Bangladesh ? Saudia Arabia ? Jordan ? Iraq ? Turkey ? Duabi ? and so forth. Sadly, it is with regret that we feel safer in a kufr country and are accepted rather than our own Islamic countries. Try staying in Saudia without a visa and if you get caught you won't get a nice clean detention centre like the one in the UK but what you get is a sqaulid jail cell. My close friend has just been back from hajj and told me the discrimiation of Arabs against other ethnic groups is still carrying on. How the hell can someone work for £3.50 or $5-6 dollars a day ???. Please tell me someone ??? Doesn't Islam demand that we treat the worker with fair rights ??? So even if we move to a country like Saudia you get treated worse than being in a kufr country and no I'm not just on about practicing deen but in all other areas as well. If anyone reads the news they'll understand where most of the refugees are coming from and what religion the majority sadly are. Salaams Hanif |
| Re: Should we go back? |
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| Ayla_A |
| 03/02/02 at 20:03:18 |
| [slm] This is a very hard thing for me to understand....I have no place to go back to, my heritage is very mixed from many countries (all kufir) I am a revert to islam, so I do make my husband's country my own? When the words of the Quran were first spreading, many people were becoming muslim but were not then living in a muslim country, years after these countries became "muslim". This could easily be the case as we know that Islam is still the fastest growing religion in the world right? I know many people who have raised their children here, some third or fourth generation and islam is still a very powerful force in their household, yet I know of immigrants excetera coming from so called muslim countries where their deen is weak or they are still living in a muslim country and their deen is weak.... It is up to us to work at practicing Islam as a way of life, avoiding things that are haram and raising our children as strong muslims. The same things still apply to raising children here (non-muslim country) and a muslim country. So I don't have anyplace to go, I think I will work hard here to make islam the driving force in my life and leave the rest up to Allah [wlm] :-)Ayla_A :-) |
| Re: Should we go back? |
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| Kashif |
| 03/02/02 at 20:09:52 |
| assalaamu alaikum It stands to reason that one who is making hijra would make sufficient preparations before he leaves, including issues of employment and procuring a source of earnings, housing, etc. Even if there is discrimination in Muslim countries, its not something thats entirely alien to us, being ethnically different to the majority of people in our countries of residence. Of course there will be sacrifices that need to be made, but at the same time, perhaps those who do make hijra will be 'pioneers' of some sort in that they will lay the foundations in their new communities to make it easier for other Muslims to come join them. Its like at your workplace. If you're the first practising Muslim in your company, you may have some difficulty in arranging breaks for prayer, and you'll have to educate colleagues about things like what happens in Ramadan, however, the difficulty that you face and overcome will make it easier for future Muslim employees to come in and observe their own religious practices without trouble. Kashif Wa Salaam |
| NS |
| Re: Should we go back? |
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| maee |
| 03/02/02 at 22:59:53 |
| [slm] i completely agree with Jannah that it is a matter of personal choice...but there are some points i'd like to make in this connxn..... i personally think that u ppl are better off practising Islam out there in the west bcos u r practising totally out of choice...there is no compulsion of n e sort on u ....and that is the best way to practise religion.!..! i have been to a lot of muslim countries where the women r forced to cover themselves ....and when they board the plane to go out west they simply remove hijaab and all....and want to expose themselves......they r not making a willful choice....and bcos it doesnt involve the struggle that goes with making a choice and living by it ...they r simply not growing!! when i joined college i was the only girl covering my hair ...not bcos there werent other muslims !.....!one muslim girl actually asked me y i wanted to look so traditional????? ???n though i had explained it a lot of times to non muslims ...i found it hard to tell this muslim woman that it is part of OUR religion! but as i say this i am also reminded of a hadith i read sometime back where God says that He has made the earth a wide expanse and men can move wherever they want to live their lives in a better way....so it definitely is food for thought..i guess!! :-/ it is a struggle for every muslim.......no matter where u r living.......but if u r doing something out of choice and not compulsion (or to merely follow a fashion statement)...then i think God will reward u more for it..... well....i hope i've made my point clear and also hope that God leads us all to the right path...aameen! |
| Re: Should we go back? |
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| Abu_Hamza |
| 03/03/02 at 02:30:30 |
| [slm] The topic has changed a little bit from its original form. Before we were talking about whether or not we should move (back) to a Muslim country because of the hatred that people have towards Muslims and Islam especially after 9-11. Now, it seems like what we're questioning is ... whether or not we, Muslims, should be living in this country (a non-Muslim country whose government is anti-Islamic) in the first place! Like I said before, and Asim also mentioned it, there's some scholarly discussion on this. So in case you haven't read the opinions, a good place to start is islam-qa.com. Just be aware that that is NOT the only opinion out there though. To comment on what Kashif quoted: [quote]"the fires of a Muslim and the fires of a non-Muslim should not be able to see each other."[/quote] I'm really interested to know what the context of this hadith was. Because I can think of many incidents from the lives of the Sahabah and the Prophet (saw) which do not exactly seem to be going along with the "command" of the Prophet (saw) in this hadith. Could it be that he was referring to a specific case, a specific situation, a specific person in this hadith? Allahu a'lam. If the content of this hadith *is* "commanding" the people not to live in the lands of non-Muslims, then someone explain to me why the Prophet (saw) ordered his companions to move to Abyssinia - a non Muslim state? Why did he not call all of them back once he had moved to Madina? Why did he send Mus'ab (I believe it was him) to Madina to live among the people there before making Hijrah? And after he did decide to make hijrah to Madina, why did he allow some Muslims to remain in Makkah among the disbelievers? Furthermore, what can also be interpreted from the face-value of this hadith is that the Muslims should not mix with the non-Muslims to the extent that "their fires are able to see each other." But why do we see then that the Prophet (saw) pays a visit to the Jewish lady when she gets sick, even though she was her staunch enemy? Why do we see him accepting the invitation of Jewish people when they invite him for dinner? Indeed, why do we see the Qur'an spend so much time describing to us *how* to deal with the non-Muslims, we are not to deal with them at all?!? Finally, if what the hadith means is that Muslims should NOT live in non-Muslim lands period, then I wonder how Islam would have spread as it did throughout history. I wonder even more how Islam would reach the people living in the West today, if all Muslims (especially activists) were to move to Muslim countries. Surely CNN and BBC is not going to pick up the work of da'wah in these countries! And you definitely cannot expect the non-Muslims to find out about Islam on their own. If they were expected to do that, why then are we called the best generation evolved for mankind? Commanding the good and forbidding the evil, telling people about Islam and inviting them to it, is an act that has to be done *actively* and not *passively*. We don't wait for people to come and ask us questions about Islam, we take Islam to them. I should probably mention here something that should already be obvious, but just in case it's not I'll mention it. I strongly believe that if a Muslim wants to stay in a non-Muslim country permanently, then their *primary* purpose in doing so must be for the sake of da'wah. NOT a better life. NOT fleeing from oppression. NOT a better life or education for their kid. This doesn't mean that you don't earn a living in a non-Muslim country. Of course you do. You would do that anywhere, regardless of whether the place of a Muslim land or not. But your *primary* reason for living in a non-Muslim country instead of a Muslim country should be because you want to make da'wah to the people. [quote]Or perhaps the desire stems from the guilt one feels when you see what your tax pounds/dollars are used for in the Muslim world, and even closer to home.[/quote] This feeling is something that in itself is not negative. I think if a Muslim living in this country does not abhor where his tax dollars are going, then he/she really needs to look deeper in his/her soul and find out what's wrong with him/her. But the conclusion based on this feeling, that we need to move to a Muslim country because of this, is wrong in my opinion. Wallahu a'lam. One reason is because even if you are living in a Muslim country, you will be paying taxes. And believe me once you live in the Muslim country long enough, you will have the same feeling about your taxes that you have living in a western country. Because your money will either be going in the pockets of the tyrant regimes who will put shuyookh that you love in jail and execute them publicly, or it will go indirectly to the same western countries whom you didn't want it to reach in the first place! Because what are musilm governments if not puppet regimes of the west? One solution to this problem, as was mentioned by someone a long time ago on this board I think, is that you live a simple life! Why do you have to earn so much in the first place?! Have an earning which is below the tax bracket, and insha Allah you won't have to pay taxes! Or at least you'll be paying very little taxes. In any case, I think it's running away from the challenge as se7en said. We have a job to do in this world, and that is to teach the world about Islam. Being in this country, the obligation of giving da'wah to these people is even bigger, and especially after Sep. 11, the responsibility is even more magnified, subhan Allah. We need to be living examples to the people where they can look at you and say, "that's what Islam is all about. I wanna be like that." We're not people who run away from the problem, but people who tackle the problem with the help of Allah, and be patient as we struggle through it. This is all my opinion. Of course what Jannah said is correct. That every person needs to decide for himself what is best for him. If you feel that you can contribute to Islam and Muslim more by living in a Muslim country, then by all means do so! But if you feel that Allah (swt) has given you talents and skills to be able to talk to these people about Islam, and bring a change in the way Islam is viewed in this country, then I would strongly suggest to you that you keep on keepin' on! And don't let the Shaytaan weaken your resolve and decrease your reward ... Wassalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakaatuh. |
| 03/03/02 at 02:36:00 |
| Abu_Hamza |
| Re: Should we go back? |
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| mymacsys |
| 03/03/02 at 11:54:09 |
| [slm] I am new here, and this is my first post. :) I live in New York, though my country of origin is elsewhere. Since I've lived here long enough, I have established home, friendships and relationships with Muslims and non-Muslims alike. I can safely call this city my home. After 9/11, in general, there is a sense of anger towards Muslims because of what had happened. Editorials in local newspapers did not make it easier for Muslims to hold their head high. The thought of going back to my country of origin crossed my mind, but situation was not unbearable for me, and this is still home. I wear hijab. Several days after the tragedy, I ventured out, walking around in the city (outside of the route I take to work), and I was very afraid. Now, why would I do such a thing--I just wanted to test the environment. Nothing happened. My landlord came over, and his family was from the war-torn Croatia -- he and his family lend support and shared some stories of courage. I attended talks, gatherings by non-Muslims curious to know about Muslims and Islam, and I went, and chatted with them. Because of my hijab, they pulled me aside and asked questions like "what do Muslims believe," etc. Most of those who were serious about learning set aside their preconceived notions of Islam and started learning. In a way, it is quite ironic considering the city was hit hard, yet some people here try harder to understand what is going on. I've sat down with a person I know who is an American Jew, and later admitted that his studies on Islam has accelerated because of our meetings. I've made new friends--Muslims, Jews and Christians. Had I packed my bags and left, none of this would have happened. Again, my situation is not bad at all, Alhamdulillah, and I do not know about the situation of other Muslims elsewhere in the US. Some people take what they know about Islam, unfortunately, from outlets of no authority. I personally think that this chance is given to us who can to interface with people, be more present, be more informative, set the truth about Islam out, and I am seizing it. It also give me a chance to learn more about my faith, and my relationship with others, friends or foe. Decisions made whether to go or to stay will ulimately be yours to make. If you know that the situation has become life-threatening, seek another alternative, because some Muslims are US citizens, so what should they do? Peace, mymacsys |
| Re: Should we go back? |
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| se7en |
| 03/03/02 at 13:57:13 |
| as salaamu alaykum, just so y'all know, that first post in this thread under the name 'se7en' was not written by me. I agree with the post completely, but just felt a bit guilty for being given credit for something I didn't write. wasalaamu alaykum wa rahmatAllah :-) |
| "Should we go back"--No, Allah put us here |
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| Anonymous |
| 03/03/02 at 22:59:29 |
| Assalamu alaikum I'm posting this anonymously only because I haven't registered on the new madina..... i just wanted to share some information--FACTS--about Muslims in the United States because I have been doing extensive research on it in the last few months (and am actually taking a break from typing right now :) ). I am studying the Political Participation of Muslims in the United States as the topic of my undergraduate thesis. The Muslim community in the US has a GREAT DEAL in its favor. Statistically speaking, the average Muslim American is more educated, more wealthy, and younger than the average American. And that's just the beginning. In a very short amount of time, Muslims have been able to establish themselves as a growing segment of the population with mosques, schools, and of course, political institutions. It's an alphabet soup out there, even when you're only looking at political institutions--CAIR (Council on American- Islamic Relations), AMC (American Muslim Council), MAPS (Muslims in the American Public Square), AMA (American Muslim Alliance), and more. InshaAllah WHEN, not if, Muslims in the US are able to make a real place for themselves in American society, Muslims the world over will benefit. Conservative estimates place the Muslim American population at 6-7 million which makes us 2-3% of the population of the United States. Sound like a familiar figure? We're at the same #s as the Jewish population in the U.S. You don't necessarily needs enormous #s to make a nice place for your community in the American landscape, but our numbers are certainly growing. They are growing through reproduction, through immigration, and through conversion, at rates faster than any "missionary" could ever hope for. Should we stick around? Absolutely. I certainly intend to inshaAllah. I was born here, raised here, and the U.S. is MY home as far as I am concerned, though my parents were born in another country. And for all those prejudiced talk-show hosts out there, move over buddy because I am as American as you, hijab and all. There are forces in American society working to keep it a pluralistic and multi-faceted place, and I am right on that bandwagon. I will fight for the rights of Muslims and any other people who may face oppression and injustice, InshaAllah. So what should we do? What do we need? U-N-I-T-Y!!! Scholars who have studied American Muslims have commented (Sulayman Nyang and John Esposito to name a couple, and whether you like or dislike their style listen to what they're saying) that the only way that Muslims are going to amount to anything in this country is by PUTTING ASIDE OUR DIFFERENCES AND UNITING ON A COMMON GOAL OF ADVANCING MUSLIMS, ALL MUSLIMS. Muslims in the U.S. have tremendous variation in terms of ethnicity, race, professions, sects, ideologies, schools of thought, and just about anything else you can imagine. We need to leave it behind us and join together for the sake of Allah to advance this ummah, starting with the US community. I will NOT run away to another country just because some people think I'm weird, or backward, or whatever, but rather with the help of Allah I intend to take advantage of the opportunities Allah has granted me by being in THIS COUNTRY in the first place. I intend to pursue my education to the utmost and always look for avenues to help our community. If we have a united, collective goal my dear sisters and brothers there is no prejudice or discrimination that can stop us because we have Allah on our side as long as we are true to his deen and are true Muslims, which means that we love our neighbor not bomb them, that we help the poor not forget them, and we can join with those who want to see our community advance--and believe me there are those who would like us to succeed, and they too are American. And our being here and being steadfast Muslims will allow people to see beyond media hype. So I apologize for the length but I really just wanted to emphatically urge you all to not ponder how you can escape this country but rather how you can PRAY and WORK to make it a better place, for Muslims, and for everyone. Wasalamu alaikum |
| Re: Should we go back? |
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| rashidazad |
| 03/04/02 at 15:38:32 |
| [wlm] I feel blessed as a Muslim to have my eyes opened by the whole 911 incident and the following events. Allah has shown us so many signs in this, and I think one of the most important is that you must realize just how much the Kuffar hate you in their heart. Muslims were getting more and more Westernized and were forgetting the reality that we are in a country of disbelief, one that is in love with sin and shirkh and will fight for their freedom to commit it. And Islam will always be a potential obstacle to them for they have studied us and know that when we are truly sincere, Allah's light cannot be contained and the Haqq will dominate their ignorance and nullify it, Inshallah. If my children (Inshallah) don't have the blessing of living through any situations like this, I will remind them Inshallah of the malice and hatred they had for us. We must have Wala Wa Bara - Love and Hate for the Pleasure of Allah. Though it is necessary to give dawa, you must understand that someone who has declared disbelief is hated by Allah, and is yours and His enemy. I heard that a Christian and a Jew were asked on some program - If you believe in God, did God do this (the 911)? The Christian pastor said, No, the Devil did it (Shirkh and disbelief, and ignorance of Allah and the Shaytan). The Rabbi said, Yes and that's why we must be angry at him. Such a man has declared war on the One I worship, the Lord of all the worlds, and is now my enemy. Don't mean to preach, I'm only a student myself. Forgive the lecture. But really, anything that opens your eyes to reality and reminds you of the Haqq is a blessing. [slm] |
| :)Re: Should we go back? |
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| nouha |
| 03/04/02 at 16:55:14 |
| [slm] i agree with the first post that seven put up in this discussion, weather it was her or not :), muslim countries today are some what worse than the muslims here in america, i have a good oppurtunity here to practice my religion, i was turkish, i would be arrested for covering my hair, if i was saudi arabian i wouldnt have hafl the oppurtunity i have here (not because of islam of course, but becuase of the politcal system set up over there), if i was algerien (wait i am ;) ) i would be bombarded with "muslims" wearing mini skirts adn even less, partying with guys and i wouldnt be able to attend a masjid...... i just say alhumdulilah i have been given these oppurtunities to live the way i want as a muslim. dont let small talks like that radio show get the best of you. yes there may be people like that, there are ALWAYS people like that ....but dont forget the 34,000 and more americans that converted to islam and the many more aroudn the world. the first reason they became muslim is of course Allah(SWT) and becuase of muslims in america..... [wlm] nouha |
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| mymacsys |
| 03/04/02 at 20:59:08 |
| [slm] This wil be a posting slightly irrelevant to the topic. So, I beg your pardon, please be patient with me. :) I see several people use the word Kafir, Kuffar to denote those deemed unbelievers. Please, my dear brothers and sisters, be careful when labelling and generalizing people. If the person may look and act like a disbeliever, only Allah s.w.t. knows deep inside whether that person is kafir. If we generalize people like this, we may accidentally have called those who are not kafir, we are guilty of fitnah. And to lock the doors for the disbeliever, we deny him/her the chance to discover Allah s.w.t. Allah decides whether He will open the heart of a person to see the truth, whether at 20, 30 or the few moments before the end of our lives. As much as we do not want others to clump us Muslims into one homogeneous demographic data, we should at least try to refrain ourselves from sliding into the trap of generalizing others. Jazakallah khairan, -mymacsys |
| Re: Should we go back? |
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| bhaloo |
| 03/05/02 at 01:33:24 |
| [slm] [quote author=mymacsys link=board=madrasa;num=1015050411;start=15#27 date=03/04/02 at 20:59:08] [slm] I see several people use the word Kafir, Kuffar to denote those deemed unbelievers. Please, my dear brothers and sisters, be careful when labelling and generalizing people. [/quote] This discussion has been discussed many times on this board in the past, if someone is still unclear about this or has a question, please feel free to IM me and we can discuss this offline, but lets not get into this discussion on the board, as many people were confused about this and after some discussions offline with other members things became clearer, alhumdullilah. Simply put, any person that is not a Muslim is a kafir. This was a good thread explaining this matter, specifically read Abu Khaled's post: http://www.jannah.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl/YaBB.pl?board=madrasa&action=display&num=3911 |
| Re: Should we go back? |
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| mymacsys |
| 03/05/02 at 08:18:11 |
| [slm] > This discussion has been discussed many times on this board in the past, > Thank you for the pointer. Jazakallah khairan, -mymacsys |
| Re: Should we go back? |
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| Barr |
| 03/05/02 at 09:59:05 |
| Assalamu'alaikum :-) [quote]One solution to this problem, as was mentioned by someone a long time ago on this board I think, is that you live a simple life! Why do you have to earn so much in the first place?! Have an earning which is below the tax bracket, and insha Allah you won't have to pay taxes! Or at least you'll be paying very little taxes. [/quote] One solution leads to another challenge. If all Muslims are to apply this rule, how do we gain strength economically? Whereas economic strength is an imperative tool to build up the ummah. In addition to that economic power has strong correlation with influential power. And shaping public opinion a powerful tool, mashaALlah. Allahua'lam :-) |
| 03/05/02 at 22:27:13 |
| Barr |
| Re: Should we go back? |
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| Abu_Hamza |
| 03/05/02 at 12:56:27 |
| [slm] Hmm. Good point, Barr! :) If you are going to earn a lot of money for that purpose, then may I stress that you keep that purpose in mind and don't lose focus! It's really easy to start something with a good intention, and then somewhere along the way, lose focus and forget the big picture ... Wassalamu alaikum. |
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| Laila |
| 03/06/02 at 15:22:18 |
| [slm] And where do you go if all your ancestry was American and European? I am recently disabled from working in the career I've had since 1975 :(, am single and the only Muslim in the family. Who will I live with- who will be my guardian- how will I make a living? Many reverts in this country are single women with no Muslim ties abroad. What would we all do? And as we argue should "we" go back- think of what could happen if that decision was no longeer our own to make >:(!! Perhaps we should all make more of an effort to welcome others to the beauty that is Islam, and not frighten them with some of the hot-headed attitudes that pervade our scattered Ummah. Just an idea of my own- all that is wrong is mine, all that is right is from Allah(swt). [wlm] :-) Laila |
| Re: Should we go back? |
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| Kashif |
| 03/06/02 at 19:53:29 |
| assalaamu alaikum Admittedly, the issue of moving to a Muslim land requires a great deal of thought and is a matter in which lots of clarification and guidance is required. Even for those who desire to move away the issue is less than clear. For instance, where would they go? In the Gulf you can't get citizenship, and in other places you'll have other difficulties. There are almost 10 million Muslims in the UK and the US: can you imagine the reaction of Muslim embassies if even 1% of this figure turned up at their doors requesting visas? They'd probably shut up shop and go straight home! But from the shari'ah point of view, I think that as a base, Muslims in the West should [i]at the very least[/i] harbour the desire to live amongst their brethren-in-faith. This is clear from the Qur'an & ahadith. Furthermore, some seem to take the attitude that if we are going to move then we don't do da'wah here in the meantime. A middle path would be the opposite: to plan long and hard, putting one's trust in Allah, and ALSO continuing with da'wah in the meantime. Sr. Laila, in response to your comments all i could think was the verse: "Allah does not burden a soul with more than it can bear." Arsalan, are you absolutely sure that the Muslims didn't return from Abysinnia after the Medinan state was setup? The information i have indicates that they moved to Madina the moment the state was brought into existence there. As soon as i get the opportunity i'll try to check this from a book of seerah, insha'allah. [quote]Why did he send Mus'ab (I believe it was him) to Madina to live among the people there before making Hijrah? [/quote] Simple. He was the Messenger of Allah alaihis-salaatu was-salaam, and he had full authority to make such decisions. [quote]what can also be interpreted from the face-value of this hadith is that the Muslims should not mix with the non-Muslims to the extent that ...[/quote] Nope. That isn't what it says. It says that you shouldn't be living in a land which is majority kaafir. The reason why we have laws regarding treatment of non-Muslims (although i don't know how many are specific to non-Muslims, as they are entitled similar rights to Muslims, e.g. the right to just treatment, the right to kindness, etc.) is because of the completeness of the religion: acknowledgement of the fact that there will be numerous occasions when Muslims meet them: for example, in trade, in the field of da'wah, non-Muslims living in a Muslim land, etc. Regarding taxes, i didn't think of the issue of where taxes in Muslim countries go before.. jazakallahu khair for mentioning that. However, to suggest that we should take jobs in the lower tax-bracket is really shooting ourselves in the foot. As people have mentioned, how will we grow economically as a community paying for masajid, schools, etc? And what if someone then went to the extreme with this opinion claiming that it was better to live on the dole as that way you're not paying any taxes! ------- Just as an addendum, one of the most serious issues with living in the West is the Americanisation, or Europeanisation of Islam. I've mentioned this in bits and bobs on the board, but this movement to change Islam inwardly is something we have to tackle full-time because it is piece by piece stripping away aspects of our shari'ah. They are reformulating Islam to tell things like, we can't believe that Islam is the only way to God, but that there are numerous ways...., in a nutshell: our aqeedah is under a vigorous attack. And i don't mean to be rude but when i hear of people talking about the huge potential for Muslim influence in the political process, and how much can be achieved, and how one day we'll have a Muslim President, and how every newborm Muslim should have the adhaan whispered in one ear and the American constitution in the other, i think that the person is being extremely, extremely naive. Did the Muslim ummah not learn even the most basic lesson from what happened in Algeria? Kashif Wa Salaam |
| NS |
| 03/06/02 at 20:11:21 |
| Kashif |
| Re: Should we go back? |
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| AbdulBasir |
| 03/06/02 at 21:47:01 |
| [quote] are you absolutely sure that the Muslims didn't return from Abysinnia after the Medinan state was setup? The information i have indicates that they moved to Madina the moment the state was brought into existence there. [/quote] [slm] The emigrants to Abyssinia returned back to Madina at different points. Uthman RA, for example, arrived just after the Hijrah, as did several others. Others came a bit later. And others like Jafar RA did not come back to the Madinan state until well after the Hijrah, the last (including Jafar) coming after the battle of Khaybar, which was seven years after the Hijrah. The group that came back with Jafar had been in Abyssinia for almost fifteen years or so. So there were different times that different companions came back, and this was all by the commands of Rasulallah[saw]. And Allah knows best... [slm]:) |
| 03/06/02 at 23:04:30 |
| jannah |
| Re: Should we go back? |
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| Mohja |
| 03/07/02 at 00:08:29 |
| [slm] As I read the several posts in this thread I couldn’t help but ask myself where would each one of us be if we weren’t born into a muslim family? Where would I be if eight centuries ago some muslim merchants didn’t decide to come to Somalia and invite my people to islam as they settled there? Hmm…probably a kafir like the ones people are talking about here and from whom they’re so anxious to get away. Sometimes I think we take islam for granted to the extent that we don’t even realize that it’s a gift from Allah[swt] that we had NOTHING to do with; A gift that comes with a HUGE responsibility. You see Allah is just. He doesn’t cause someone to be born in a muslim environment and another into a non-muslim environment so that the muslim can have a free ticket to heaven while the other heads straight to hell! That’s why in the Qur’an Allah[swt] says: [color=Green] “Whoever goes aright, for his own soul does he go aright; and whoever goes astray, to its detriment only does he go astray: nor can the bearer of a burden bear the burden of another, nor do We chastise until We have sent a messenger” (17:15) [/color] After 9/11 muslims have been astounded by the number of reversions to islam, in spite of the unfavorable atmosphere. Alhamdulillah. But there’s something else that 9/11 has revealed: how prior to the WTC muslims have failed (for lack of a better word) non-muslims by isolating themselves instead of being open, kind, and welcoming people to islam. Today non-muslims are coming into islam first and foremost because of Allah’s [swt] guidance but also because muslims were literally forced to come out of their hiding and share islam with non-muslims.I wonder what would the situation be like if we had done that from the start? I’m not saying that muslims were not doing da’wah before 9/11, just that it was not enough and it’s till not enough today. And how can we talk of da’wah when we have this negative attitude towards non-muslims calling them kafirs and all. It doesn’t matter what is the linguistic meaning of kafir or whether it can or cannot be used to describe the average non-muslim. The truth of the matter is that Jo next door has absolutely no clue what islam is about, unless you accept the media’s definition of islam as true. So kafir or not these people simply do not know what islam is. This means that the message didn’t reach these people. And if it didn’t reach them, it must be because the messengers did not deliver the message in the first place! So who’s at fault here? Why are we so stingy? Really! Why are we so stingy when it comes to sharing islam? One would get the impression that islam is for certain people from certain geographical areas by reading some of the posts on this board. The truth is that all muslim countries were at some point in time lands largely inhabited by non-muslims. And not all of these areas became muslim due to muslim conquests. Sometimes I question our understanding of what islam is. Isn’t it the submission to the Lord of the universe? The Lord of the east *and* the west and all that is in between? Isn’t islam about worshipping the One True God ? Aren’t we all the servants of that one God? Doesn’t Allah say in the Qur’an that all the creatures in the universe bow down to Him with or in spite of their will? So why can’t we deal with non-muslims from that perspectives: as fellow servants of God, even if they don’t know that themselves…yet? I’m amazed at the character of our prophet [saw] who used to endure ignorance and insults from the bedouin arabs and would reciprocate that with kindness and gentleness. Why did he have to do that? Of all people he, the beloved of God, had the right to be angry and retaliate but he didn’t. We all know the story of the jewish lady who used to throw garbage at him…GARBAGE…yet one day when he noticed that she was not doing it, he visited her to inquire about her health. She was so touched by his [saw] kindness that she cried and become muslim right there! That is da’wah! That is islam! Also the story of Taif and how the arabs abused and hurt him and yet when the angels asked for his permission to crush the mountains on them what did he say? “O yeah kill the kafirs!” ? No! he prayed for them and said that he hoped that out of their progeny will come those who would worship Allah. It makes my eyes tear as I’m typing this. Really what mercy! What kindness! But then he had the Truth and he was confident in that. He knew his purpose and the message that he was entrusted with. It didn’t matter how others behaved towards him. He had true belief and his actions were derived from that belief. Subhan’Allah! May the peace and blessings of Allah be on him who was a mercy to mankind. My prophet! Brothers and sisters, Allah [swt] has promised in the Qur’an that the truth of islam shall prevail. Allah will guide non-muslims, as he did with our forefathers, with or without us for He is the One who’s more Merciful to His servants than a mother to her child. When we really think about it, it’s not even a question of us guiding non-muslims but actually saving ourselves from the torment of the day of judgement when we will be asked about what we did with the precious gift of islam. Allah doesn’t need us. It’s us that are in the most need of Him. So let’s realize this simple fact and let us show gratefulness by inviting non-muslims to islam with kindness and compassion instead of looking down at them from our nose. In the end which one of us can guarantee that he will die as a muslim? I hope I did not offend anyone for that was not my intention. I’m writing this as a reminder for myself first. Whatever good I said is from Allah and the mistakes are mine, may He forgive me for them. [wlm] :) |
| Re: Should we go back? |
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| Asim |
| 03/07/02 at 00:57:56 |
| wa alaikum us-salaam wa rahmatullah, Jazakallahu khayran Sr. Mohja for the beautiful post. I suggest that we stick to the original discussion on "should we go back?" and what Islam says about it. The issue of kafir = non-believer = we look down upon them (?) is a separate issue. And Arshad posted a link that explains this well alhamdulillah. And as Br. Arsalan, Br. Kashif, and Sr. Mohja have mentioned da'wah is a necessity regardless. Let's keep it on the original topic inshallah. It has been an interesting discussion. Wasalaam. |
| 03/07/02 at 01:08:09 |
| Asim |
| Re: Should we go back? |
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| Abd_al-Rashid |
| 03/08/02 at 03:10:35 |
| [slm] Regarding the hadith about the fires of the believers and that of the unbelievers, I found this on [url=http://islaam.com/Article.asp?id=331]Islaam.com[/url]: "Abu Daud reports on the authority of Samura ibn Jundub that the Prophet [saw] said, "Whoever joins a Mushrik and lives with him is like him." (Abu Daud, at-Tirmidhi) Jabir relates the Prophet [saw] said, "I am free of every Muslim who lives among the Mushrikeen." We asked, "Why is that, O Messenger of Allah?" He replied, "Their fires should not be visible to one another." (Abu Daud) Imam al-Khattabi writes: "Different scholars have interpreted this hadith in different ways. One is that they are not equal in their hukm (‘ruling’; meaning they both have different rulings pertaining to them). Others say this hadith means Allah has differentiated between Dar al-Islam and Dar al-Kufr, hence it is not allowed for a Muslim to live in the land of the unbelievers since when they will lit their fire, he will be seen to belong to them. It also an evidence that it is disliked (makruh) for a Muslim to goto Dar al-Harb for trade and to stay there for more than four days." (Mu’alim us-Sunnan by al-Khattabi. Kitab al-Jihad) Abu Daud reports in his Marasil from Makhool from the Prophet [saw] "Do not leave your children among the polytheists." ----- The article itself is a collection of fatwa given with regards to living in the land of the unbelievers. [wlm] |
| 03/08/02 at 03:14:33 |
| Abd_al-Rashid |
Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board |