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Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board

Islamic School or Public School?
Abu_Hamza
03/03/02 at 02:50:59
[slm] For those who have been thru American high schools, or are going to high school right now ... Would you send your kids to a public school?  Or would you send them to an Islamic school?  Or would you homeschool them? Why?
03/03/02 at 03:17:05
Abu_Hamza

Re: Islamic School or Public School?
Laboogie
03/03/02 at 03:19:51
[slm] [quote]Would you send your kid to a public school?  Or would you send him/her to an Islamic school?  Or would you homeschool him/her? Why?  [/quote]    I think that it would be my dream to send my children to islamic schools, but we have A LOT of work to do in our schools and I can not say that would send them there, it depends on the school, its curriculm, its teachers. Many times we find in our islamic schools , uncertified teachers (aunties and unlces teaching), unexperienced staff, lack of resources/materials. This is something that we need to work on, that is VERY important. But if I could, I would, but me being a realistic thinker, I dont think I would at the moment...but by the time I have kids  ;), they will be better insha'allah.   To tell u the truth I wouldnt mind sending my child to a public school---Im a product of a public education and I turned out pretty ok ;). See often times we get caught up in these terms 'public/private/islamic/homeschooling'...not really focusing on the education our children our receiving...sometimes the education that they are receiving in a islamic school isnt as great, but b/c we want our children to go to an "ISLAAAAAMICCCC' school we jeoparadize their education. And when I talk about education, I mean all of it--islamic and  general academics.   About homeschooling,I think that homeschooling if its done, it should be done at an early age and then have the children attend school after 2nd or 3rd grade. Homeschooling can be very good but can be very damaging. Many ppl dont realize how much goes into homeschooling. We think that we can teach anything, but we cant...we are all educators in our own ways but teaching something is different... well just my 2 cents from a future educator ;) peace L
03/03/02 at 03:49:20
Laboogie

Re: Islamic School or Public School?
bhaloo
03/03/02 at 10:10:05
[slm] In my area the following Islamic school opened up.  The teachers there have proper teaching credentials from the state.  A masjid is being built next to the school and there was a ground breaking ceremony for the masjid and then a lunch provided by the school. http://www.newhorizonirvine.org/ The school's tuition according to the website is $6,000 a month, and people that have sent their children there speak very highly of the standards of this school.  This school actually has a few other campuses in different parts of Los Angeles county over the last 15 or 20 years, and people that I have run into that have gone there, always spoke very highly of the academic standards there. I went to public school all my life, and although I turned out ok (i think ;) ), public school is not where Muslim children should be going, most Muslims that entered it, are no longer Muslims now.  We need to have proper Islamic schools in this country, so Muslims can learn about their religion, learn what it is to be a Muslim, learn how to practice it, learn who are other Muslims in the community, create a bond between community members,  etc. This should be the most important thing we should be establishing in this country, Islamic schools, because without any proper education, there is no future.

Re: Islamic School or Public School?
Marcie
03/03/02 at 11:54:28
[color=Purple][slm] [quote]Many times we find in our islamic schools , uncertified teachers (aunties and unlces teaching), unexperienced staff, lack of resources/materials.[/quote] It is not just that, but the administration many times is made up of people who have nothing to do with education.  They may have their doctorates, but not in the right field. My dream would be to teach in an Islamic school, but I want to offer kids a first class education that is competitive with the standards of other countries and not the USA.  Another problem is the pay.   :'(  You don't make enough to finance your family.  When I talked with one Islamic school, about five years ago, the teachers were making  $800.00 a year.  The worst problem is the cliques that have been established!!!!! >:(  People are not working together as true Muslims should for the benefit of the entire ummah!!!!  Need I say more? Other than that I think that Islamic schools are the way to go. 8) [wlm] Marcie  :-) [/color]

Re: Islamic School or Public School?
Laboogie
03/03/02 at 14:19:58
[slm] Br. Bhaloo , seems like an interesting school...but my thing is 6,000 a mth...woooohooo thats a lot of money (but I guess in order to get the best, u need to pay the price? which is sad and true---even if you dont have it ) . Especially since the average muslim in the states cant afford that you know, I noticed there was a assitance program, which is great. I mean the school looks awesome, I wouldnt mind sending my kid there, if I could afford it ;)  Another thing is, that many of our islamic schools dont know about learning disablities/disabilites or diferent learning styles...which is soooo common in our communities...what typically happens is that, the kids are shunned from the communities schools, forcing them to attend other schools.  I think that, that is something very important that needs to be address when we are trying to establish our schools, how are we going to accomodate ALL our students? (or at least try). [quote]public school is not where Muslim children should be going, most Muslims that entered it, are no longer Muslims now. [/quote]   Ummmm, I dont know---I kind of disagree with that to a certain extent.  You said that public school is not where muslim children should go? I would have to say it would be best that our children go to islamic school not really that public school is not where they should attend, b/c where do they live? the society that they live in? would it be ok, if they attend college and its not a an islamic one? (of course college is different---but addressing your comment 'muslims that entered it, are no longer muslims now'--this happens in college as well, not that they are not muslim any more but are not practicing muslims). Higer edu, is different and when they are younger it is  very important (in terms of building that foundation), but want we need to really focus on is HOW the schools are run, not the title of the school. I totally believe that it all comes down to the school you put your child in, regardless if its a public/private or islamic school...how are they teachers, how is the admistration, the curriculm, parent envolvement, resources, etc. But like I said before my dream would be to put my child in an islamic school, b/c they get everything (but it all goes back to how is that school being runned?)  Like br. bhaloo said the most important thing is to establish islamic schools, proper islamic schools that is b/c 'without any proper education, there is no future'.

Re: Islamic School or Public School?
jannah
03/03/02 at 15:20:09
slm, i wouldn't recommend homeschooling, unless the person is qualified. it's seriously alot of work...i mean you have to be a fulltime teacher who creates new lesson plans and teaches every day.  i've seen some parents who have this ideal of 'homeschooling' but their kids are seriously getting probably less than a stellar education, because they cannot devote enough time and effort to it. as for islamic schools i'd recommend it just because i know most parents are not giving their kids an islamic education and not providing them an environment to become good muslims.   that's one of the things i realized when i went to a muslim country. all the islamic education kids get is from their schools and environment, which is all reinforced by parents.  i think alot of immigrant parents think their children will "get" islam like they did.. from school the environment etc and they don't need to do anything. they don't realize the two places are completely different!

Re: Islamic School or Public School?
BroHanif
03/03/02 at 18:30:45
Salaams, [quote]public school is not where Muslim children should be going, most Muslims that entered it, are no longer Muslims now.  [/quote] Err I think a bit of a generalisation Bro. We have public schools here and masha-allah they are good. And the kdis do stay muslims. [quote]The school's tuition according to the website is $6,000 a month, and people that have sent their children there speak very highly of the standards of this school.[/quote] Its 6k a year Bro! Had to check it out. Our Islamic schools man they are way behind. In our place these three kidergarden schools and all within throwing distances of two stones. Man thats crazy why re-invent the wheel ?. And the reason why there are three is politics, forget the kids. Salaams Hanif

Re: Islamic School or Public School?
bhaloo
03/03/02 at 21:02:47
[slm] [quote author=Laboogie link=board=madrasa;num=1015141859;start=0#4 date=03/03/02 at 14:19:58][slm] Br. Bhaloo , seems like an interesting school...but my thing is 6,000 a mth...woooohooo thats a lot of money (but I guess in order to get the best, u need to pay the price? [/quote] Ooops, sorry, as Bro. Hanif pointed out my mistake its 6,000 a year.  And the school is for 10 months, so its $600 a month.  I believe the  maximum number of students is 20 students per class (180 for the whole school), so that means they are taking in $12,000 a month per class (if its filled to capacity).  And  you figure there is support staff as well, principal, secretary, janitor, librarian, teacher's aid.  So that $12,000 probably goes towards the rent of the place, and to pay the salaries of a teacher, and a support staff person.  I guess that doesn't leave a whole lot of money for the school to do well. ??? [quote] I mean the school looks awesome, I wouldnt mind sending my kid there, if I could afford it ;) [/quote] Two weeks ago this Arab brother was telling me that he has 3 children and he would love to send his children to this school but he can't afford the tuition for all 3.   Appearantly the county I live in has about 200,000 Muslims in it, and the average Muslim family probably has 3 children, so that's like 120,000 Muslim children in the county, and the only thing available to them is this school that can hold 180 students, and this other school at Dr. Siddiqqi's mosque (Garden Grove) that can also hold 180 students.  So at most, 360 kids are in an Islamic environment (or at least trying to be), what about the thousands of other kids, how will they learn about Islam?   The mosques out here don't really have classes, maybe some 1 hour a week class on some basics from the Quran, and thats it.  And based on the attendance I see at the friday prayers, the percentage of muslim males that shows up is very small.  So that's why it seems to me many of these people are only Muslim by name.   I know Dr. Jamal Badawi wrote up an article on this on a visit to Australia (or maybe it was Dr. Bilal Phillips), they mentioned it takes only 3 generations for this to happen.  We really need schools to ensure the future of Muslims.  5 or 6 years ago, I never saw a sister wearing hijab in this county outside of the masjid, and this is a county with 200,000 Muslims, but alhumdullilah, there are sisters wearing hijab now outside of the masjid. Alhumdullilah you Albanians are blessed with a wonderful sheikh there, with a man that gives so much of his time to teaching and providing you with an opportunity to learn, you all are so fortunate, insha'Allah I hope all the Albanians take the opportunity to learn and take advantage of this time, because it is a very rare opportunity. [quote] would it be ok, if they attend college and its not a an islamic one? (of course college is different---but addressing your comment 'muslims that entered it, are no longer muslims now'--this happens in college as well, not that they are not muslim any more but are not practicing muslims). [/quote] What's happened to so many Muslims in college has really shocked and scared me.  I remember a family my parents knew and still know, and their children went away to college, and now they have started working.  Well anyways I did a search on the internet for one of their children, and there was pictures of this person on the net with alcohol, and in the arms of someone of the opposite sex, and some other really bad things. Maybe these things could have been prevented if the children had a proper basic Islamic education?  Perhaps being in touch with other Muslims? (BTW: I did a check on our moderators here as well, Kashif and Asim came up clean, BUT this guy Abu Hamza, I need to check him out some more.   I came across this link, I had no idea: http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_299000/299522.stm ) [quote] But like I said before my dream would be to put my child in an islamic school, b/c they get everything (but it all goes back to how is that school being runned?) [/quote] That's true, one brother I know used to teach at the other school in my county and he said the teachers there didn't have the proper education and the pay was bad, and the kids weren't learning, they were learning the same things (islamically) for the last 3 or 4 years. jazak Allah khairen, sister Laboogie for your input.
03/03/02 at 21:06:06
bhaloo

Re: Islamic School or Public School?
momineqbal
03/03/02 at 22:20:53
[slm], Somebody should do a survey of students that have come out of Islamic schools over the years. I know there wont be many since all this has gethered momentum very recently but still we might try and do that. Survey could be on academic achievements, religious values they hold on to etc. I know one Islamic school that was started recently in North Quincy in MA had very good students academically coming out of it and who did well later on. But I would think that just because a school is called an Islamic school doesn't necessarily guarantee anything at all. So it shouldn't ever be publicised as an utopia for everything. Wassalam, Eqbal

Re: Islamic School or Public School?
BroHanif
03/04/02 at 16:30:02
Salaams Your a crazy bro Arsahd, oh man that was the best laugh of today. had tears in mee eyes, thanks man I needed it been down a bit. :) [quote](BTW: I did a check on our moderators here as well, Kashif and Asim came up clean, BUT this guy Abu Hamza, I need to check him out some more.   I came across this link, I had no idea:   http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_299000/299522.stm ) [/quote] Does our infamous Abu Hamza you know the infamous basketball player know his five minutes of fame. ? salaams Hanif

Re: Islamic School or Public School?
nouha
03/04/02 at 16:37:46
[slm] i agree with laboogie on this one, we need more certified teachers, if there was a islamic school here with good certified teachers and good tuition then i would defiently send my kids there, i heard there is a big islamic school in florida, they go all the way up to high school, mashallah!! ill try to to find out the name later...... [wlm] nouha :)

Re: Islamic School or Public School?
bhaloo
03/04/02 at 19:13:41
[slm] [quote author=BroHanif link=board=madrasa;num=1015141859;start=0#9 date=03/04/02 at 16:30:02]Salaams Your a crazy bro Arsahd, oh man that was the best laugh of today. had tears in mee eyes, thanks man I needed it been down a bit. :) Does our infamous Abu Hamza you know the infamous basketball player know his five minutes of fame. ? salaams Hanif[/quote] Bro Hanif I'm just glad someone got the joke, I was getting worried there for a minute. hehehehe :D The brothers know I'm just playing.

[i][/i][i][/i]Re: Islamic School or Public School?
UmmAbdulRahman
03/04/02 at 19:24:09
[slm] Islamic schools.  But it's important not to isolate students in Islamic schools to the outside society-if they are, they will not be prepared to deal with conflicts and other issues that may arise when they interact with non-Muslims, more so later in life.  Islamic schools can do this by sending their students to competitions, visiting organizations and non-Muslim schools, have an open-house day type thing where non-Muslims of the same age are interacting with them, etc., etc.  I do think Islamic schools are   [i]rapidly[/i] improving.  Usually, first year schools are disasters, but mistakes are learned quickly and usually trained educators step in and help. I also agree that most of these students are receiving their Islamic education from these schools-some of their parents are even non-Muslims (the mother, usually).  I really believe that some of these kids are saved by these Muslim schools, as bad as they may be.   I wouldn't recommend public schools to anyone, especially public schools with no Muslims just because of the need children and students have to identify with their peers-this is a fundamental and basic principle in childhood development.  If they don't fulfill this need, they lose self-esteem.  Loss of self-esteem as a child means a weak adult Muslim.  The seeds have to be planted when their young.   I also wouldn't recommend homeschooling because then children are missing the opportunity to gain the social skills they need.  I think a parent could homeschool-actually, I've never seen a parent fail at it.  They ususally know the amount of work it consists of and their willing to do it. But when children are taught from a variety of teachers, it enhances their schooling experiences so much more.  Teachers have all different kinds of teaching styles and students have all different kinds of learning styles.  Each teacher may complement a different learning style within a student that was never touched upon before.

Re: Islamic School or Public School?
se7en
03/05/02 at 13:40:33
as salaamu alaykum, Abu Hamza you don't answer your own questions ???

Re: Islamic School or Public School?
Abu_Hamza
03/05/02 at 20:14:56
Wa'alaikum assalam wa rahmatullah, [quote]Abu Hamza you don't answer your own questions  ???[/quote] I'd like to hear what others think first ... I'll give my own thoughts later insha Allah. Wassalamu alaikum :)

Re: Islamic School or Public School?
AyeshaZ
03/05/02 at 21:24:52
Asalmu Alykum, InshaAllah homeschooling  :) atleast for the first 10 years of a child's life.  One of the myths of homeschooling is that one has to be qualified, licensed teacher but a dedicated, patient and most importantly organized parent can homeschool as well. As a future educator when I look at the "future" teachers around me , I literally get scared stiff of the them possibly teaching children. Most of us have gone through the whole circle of public schooling , Alhamdullilah we got out of it, but atleast for ME it wasn't an easy ride. I got liberated when I came to the university and met other Muslimah's that I could relate to... Many parents don't realize that they are the first teachers of their children, who can know their children better than them? And yet it is perfectly A.O.K to send their children to perfect strangers for 6-7 hours each day without investigating who they are and what they stand for? Do we even realize it that teachers play an important role in child's life? Our Prophet Muhammad  [saw] was homescooled, SubhanAllah doesn't that tell us something. Traditionally for the first 7 years of childs life they were taught morals and Quran and than later were sent to madrasas that were differernt from the prisons that our children now sit it for hours. I mean we are so classically conditioned that learning stops when that bell rings and for half of the class atleast I use to spend counting down the mins and didn't grasp a lot of important material.  I know we have to get out of the mentality of looking back at our perfect times. However, we should question what produced those amazing scholars than and what are we lacking now. On the other hand not everyone can homeschool, we all have different circumstances and not everyone can handle homeschooling. As sister jannah said that some parents do a disservice of homeschooling their children!!! We can't just read one book and suddenly pull our children out of public schools and start homeschooling them. If we have not studied homeschooling in depth or met parents who are homescooling their children than we should stick to public schooling. In North America atleast 1.4 million folks are homescooling their children, and people are sending their kids to montessories schools as well!!!! I think there are more options than just sending your children to public schools and we should look into it!!!! errrr ofcourse if we had an awesome Islamic school in my community that would be my first choice  :-*  but we don't  :'( Some books that i found enlightening: "Dumbing us Down" by John. t. gatto "Beyond Schooling" by Sh.humza yusuf and J.t.gatto umm also the C.D of Beyond schooling, I think they are available at www.ihya.com.. Also there are soo many websites and groups that explain what homeschooling is all about, i have to dig in my notes.. i'll post the websites later.. JazakumAllahu Khair

Re: Islamic School or Public School?
Asim
03/05/02 at 23:48:47
Assalaamu alaikum, [quote]I'd like to hear what others think first ... I'll give my own thoughts later insha Allah.[/quote] Yeah right. As is typical for Ars...ermm and Abu Hamza, he will wait for everyone to give an opinion and then rehash the most popular as his   :P My first choice would be an Islamic school. But, it has to be reasonably good. If is really lousy then I dunno, public school. I have read only good things about homeschooling but don't have any first hand knowledge. Can't you hire qualified teachers to come teach at home? Wasalaam.

Re: Islamic School or Public School?
Adi28
03/06/02 at 00:26:56
Salaams everyone,    this is for me a really intresting topic and very relavent becasue i have been homeschooled , i did go to an islamic school and i currently go to a public school....and for me they were and still are intesting experiences...but for my kids i would have them in a islamic school in elementary school and then put them in a public school...so they have that good islamic foundation  and they can better handle public school.     And homeschooling is great (for me at least.)  because actually my mom homeschooled  me (just me)...but she was also a certified teacher and it was great!!! she would teach me stuff for like 2-3 hours in the moring. and then the rest of the time we go out cool places like the bakery..or hang out with  nouha's aunt and excersise (haha) who at the time was visiting...it was really cool i liked it better than both public school and islamic school..and it wasn't in elementary school that she homeschooled me it was like 7th grade..and i remeber when i went back to school eventually.... i was miles ahead of everybody else so it really did beneifit me...and islamic shcool was great becasue i had all my muslim friends...and their was no weird questions like "why don't you celebrate chirstmas"...so it was really good too..and the teachers there where qualified and we had fun and i think thats what counts :) ok thats my two cents.  Salaams         Adilah

Re: Islamic School or Public School?
Barr
03/06/02 at 00:52:02
Assalamu'alaikum :-) I think I would put them in a very good Islamic School. I'm not particularly statisfied with the quality of madrasahs that we have here, but inshaALlah, there are efforts to increase that quality, so inshaALlah, khair. Most probably a madrasah. Y? I think I'd like my children to grow up with firm knowledge and be very well grounded in Islam, and see how Islam relates to everything that goes around them. Also, would love to see them be fine ambassadors of Islam, and starting young, I think this can give them the flexibility of choosing whether they want to specialise in revealed knowledge (deen subjects) such as shar'iah, Islamic philosophy, Arabic etc. or to branch out to other areas such as medicine, engineering etc. [quote]Islamic schools.  But it's important not to isolate students in Islamic schools to the outside society- [/quote] I think you brought up a very good point. What happens sometimes, is that our children are excluded and overly "protected" from the "other world" such that he may find difficulty to relate to the society when he graduates and work. Especially so, if we want our children to become agents of change. There is a need to understand the mantiq (logic) of those around him. He needs to be able to talk their language. Society needs to feel that he is a part of them, and he needs to feel that he is a part of the society. However, I think we have to acknowledge that the bulk of our children are going to public schools, and the amt getting deen education from parents or mosques are far too small. Probably what can be done as in Chicago, is that we bring Islam to our children in school. That way, the net is cast wider with less structural rigidity. But if my children cannot get into an Islamic School, I won't mind sending them to public school. Afterall, I am the product of a public school. For it takes a lot more for us, as parents to mould our children to be the torches and bearers of our ambition and pride of the ummah. Allahua'lam :-)

Re: Islamic School or Public School?
Abu_Hamza
03/06/02 at 13:17:33
[quote]As is typical for Abu Hamza, he will wait for everyone to give an opinion and then rehash the most popular as his   :P[/quote] Et tu Asim ???   ::) You'll be surprised bro! :)
03/06/02 at 13:17:52
Abu_Hamza

Re: Islamic School or Public School?
NinthMuharram
03/07/02 at 08:27:46
HAve anyone check this out ? http://www.iiu.edu.my/gecd/iis/web/pages/main_page.htm

Re: Islamic School or Public School?
se7en
03/07/02 at 12:08:36
as salaamu alaykum, The original question was about highschool..  I think I would send my child/ren to a public highschool *if* they are solid in deen, and if that's what they want.  However, for elementary and middle school,  I would like to send my child/ren to an Islamic school, no matter what its condition, or homeschool. Let me explain :)  I just had a discussion with someone about this, and they thought I was crazy, considering that most of the temptations/fitan a kid faces occur in highschool, not before that. Early to middle childhood is when a child's sense of self and identity are being developed, and it's at this time a proper Islamic environment is *so* important.  Elementary school is a time when your understanding of *reality* is shaped.  I would not want to leave that in the hands of someone who does not acknowledge Allah as their Creator, no matter how many teaching awards s/he has won.  Whatever their teaching skills are, they would not be able to instill in my child that *Love* for Islam I would like him/her to have. Highschool does have its temptations, but I think that if a person has a solid background, and a support *system* of a strong family, active Muslim community, etc, they'll be aiite.  I'm a public school kid myself, from kindergarten to university, and I actually *liked* highschool - because we had a Muslim crew going on, a strong sense of Muslim identity, and we rocked the school instead of the school rocking us  8) What I'm saying is, I'm not worried about what my child would be exposed to in public school - but how their *intellect* and *understanding of reality* will be shaped.  I think if a kid is deenin', they can be exposed to anything and do fine.   I'm also very much into the John Taylor Gatto vibe.  (Read an article of his, the Six Lesson School Teacher, [url=http://www.cantrip.org/gatto.html][here][/url])  I think there is something wrong with the education system in the United States, and I would have no issue with home schooling my child/ren (especially considering that I most likely am pursuing a degree in education, inshaAllah.)  I second AyeshaZ's book rec's up there ^ I don't think all children who go to public school turn out to be delinquents, but I think it does affect you, harden you, and leave its scars.  There are *many* who get lost along the way, and as one of the 'survivors' I can tell you it's because I've been blessed with full-tilt immersion in an Islamic home/community/mafia. And I think there's something wrong with sending your kid to a public school if there is a Muslim school available.  To put it simply, we need to support our peoples, man. One other thing - inshaAllah, I will *never* be the type of parent to pressure my child to follow a particular career path.  I want my children to grow up good Muslims, active contributors to the ummah.. and *happy*.  Whether that's by being a dentist or a dairy farmer :P I'm saying "my child/ren" as if it's a sure thing :)  Of course, only Allah knows what's in my future. May Allah allow a groundswell of scholars, poets, and warriors to emerge from the next generation of Muslims. wAllahu 'alam. wasalaamu alaykum wa rahmatAllah.
03/07/02 at 12:29:03
se7en

Re: Islamic School or Public School?
Kashif
03/07/02 at 12:23:22
assalaamu alaikum I'm in agreement with sr Se7en. But in addition, who said that only the mother can be the educator in homeschooling? What i mean is that if there were a group of similar minded Muslims who wanted to homeschool, they could band together and help each other with some parents specialising in topics, etc. I think they already do this in one community just outside of London. Kashif Wa Salaam
NS

Re: Islamic School or Public School?
Laboogie
03/07/02 at 15:29:10
[slm] [quote]I would like to send my child/ren to an Islamic school, no matter what its condition, [/quote]  You sure about that???no matter its condition???ummm, I think u need to rethink that sistah  ;) I just wanted to comment on the assumptions that many ppl(not only madina citizens, but ppl in general) have about public school...this assumption that , students get lost, its hard, etc....my question is what makes u think that if u do go to a private school that these  things wont t happen to u/children there??? man I know of soooo many things that private school students have gone through, that im like WOOOOO  :o and im a product of a public education??---so basically what im trying to say is that each school is different and when I say each school, I MEAN EACH school INDIVIDUALLY, b/c u might find 2 schools in the SAME district BUT they are COMPETELY different...so the best thing to do is do your research, talk to parents and all that good stuff---or become a TEACHER  ;) and you'll know the systerm.... aight me outs L
03/07/02 at 15:29:46
Laboogie

Re: Islamic School or Public School?
se7en
03/08/02 at 00:53:30
as salaamu alaykum, hmm.  well, if my choices were: a. little abdullah running home from school, telling me *all* about how auntie-ji had to teach forty kids in one classroom, with ten text books or b. little abdullah running home and telling me *all* about how he learned that suzie has two mommies, and that this is a normal and healthy family structure.. I'll go with A, alex.. :P but I do understand what you're saying.  I guess I am of the feeling that - no matter how *bad* an Islamic school is, it's better than a public school, simply because it's Islaaaaaaaaaaaaamic  8) InshaAllah it's something I'll think about some more. wasalaamu alaykum :)

Re: Islamic School or Public School?
bhaloo
03/08/02 at 01:10:18
[slm] [quote author=Laboogie link=board=madrasa;num=1015141859;start=15#23 date=03/07/02 at 15:29:10]I just wanted to comment on the assumptions that many ppl(not only madina citizens, but ppl in general) have about public school...this assumption that , students get lost, its hard, etc....my question is what makes u think that if u do go to a private school that these  things wont t happen to u/children there??? [/quote] Your right the same thing could happen in either situation, however we're talking about Islamic private schools.  At least there would be some focus on teaching the basics of the deen, being in an environment with other Muslims, it would alleviate a lot of problems, i.e. food problems, celebrating non-Muslim hollidays, male/female interactions, learning the basics of islam, getting in the habit of praying, making Muslim friends, etc.  I'm not saying that problems couldn't happen, but at least it would solve a lot of problems and concerns.  As far as non-Muslim public and private schools are concerned I think the same problems will and do happen in both.

Re: Islamic School or Public School?
bismilla
03/08/02 at 02:39:54
[slm] [i][color=green][sub]bsm[/i][/color][/sub] [sub][color=magenta][i]I am having trouble downloading this thread so have not read most of what has been discussed.  Therefore apologies in advance if you find me repeating myself or mentioning something where the discussion has been resolved already :) [/color][/i][/sub] I can only talk from our own experience and will attempt to describe best i can why we chose to send my daughter to a school that follows an Islamic ethos :- [color=red]Having qualified teachers and personnel teaching and running the affairs of the school is a pre-requisite.[/color] 1.  Although it is a privately run school, it still runs parallel to the curriculumn set out by the Govt. Dept. of Education - this ensures that the children are not being educated in a bubble. 2.  This same curriculumn is ammended to suit the needs of the Islamic way of Life, in that Allah swt, Quran and the Prophet Muhammed  [saw] are introduced into the syllabus in a natural way.  A way in which doesn't make a child feel that he/she is being taught any different from a child taught in another school, but in a way that encourages one to constantly view the world from an Islamic standpoint. All that we read, see and experience in this world, is unfortunately from a non-Muslim point of view.  This in most cases always reflects Islam as negative religion. Given time, it can also erode confidence in our younger generations.  Suttle changes and introductions like those afore-mentioned are vital in maintainging a child's confidence in themselves and their practices.  This, coupled with positive influences at home, Insah Allah cannot fail in bringing into society confident, upright citizens. 3.  The norm in our communities is usually school till 2 p.m. and Madressah following (almost) immediately till 5 in the evening. This leaves a child with very little time for recreation, homework or rest. Whereas, with the school she is in, Islamic studies form part of the school syllabus.  Therefore, when she reaches home at 3.30 p.m. she can spend some time playing before she get's down to homework etc. 4.  The Sunnah of our Beloved Prophet Muhammed   [saw] is followed closely. eg. -  reciting (and constant reminders) to read your appropriate Duahs b4 entering and leaving the toilet, eating, drinking your water etc etc      - to drink water whilst sitting down etc.      - Manners and mannerisms in the Islamic way of life 5.  The day is strated off by making Zikr in the classrooms & Salah is a priority.  The school breaks are devised in a way that a child can complete lunch, make whudu and read Dhur Salah comfortably. There are just so many positives i see coming out of this environment in which she spends majority of her waking hours. Jazak Allah for "listening".  I better sign off b4 i start sounding like an advertisement :) [slm]

Re: Islamic School or Public School?
Ayla_A
03/08/02 at 19:03:23
[color=Green] [slm] The subject of sending your child to an islamic public school is a very hot topic in my community right now.  There has been an islamic school now for about 3 years or so now.  When the school first was starting it was in 2 rooms in the mosque.  This did not work so well for most of the children there. Now they have bought a wonderful building (previous public elementary school) and have added up to grade 6 in the school.  Every year they are hoping to add the next grade to the [url=http://www.hudaschool.regina.sk.ca/about.htm]School[/url] My problem is that the teachers (educational teachers) are not muslim.  Now I realize that there is muslim/ahs that come in to teach arabic, quran and so on, but the regular classes are taught by none muslims.  They have had "cowboy dress up day" and many other such days. Also I know of many many cases of children going to "religious" private schools who for whatever reason end up going into the public system end up way behind the other children. Another issue that I have with islamic p.school is the fact that the resources are just not available for the higher grades.  No labs, art, industrial types of classes for the not so academically inclined. The cost is a factor, but I don't think it is the deciding one for me.  If it is important for you to do you will find the means to do it. My feelings about sending my children may change as the school grows and becomes more recognized and such.  One has to be very careful with thier childrens education [wlm] :-)Ayla_A :-) [/color]

Re: Islamic School or Public School?
Abu_Hamza
03/10/02 at 00:12:04
[slm] Note: In the discussion below, I have stuck with the male third-person pronoun when talking about my kid.  He/she gets old after a while  ::)   I must say I've really enjoyed this discussion, alhamdulillah.  A lot of food for thought here.  A lot of different perspectives, all of them carrying some valid points.  As far as what is my answer to my own question ... Those of you who know me, or who have at least read my replies in the "should we go back" thread, should not be surprised by what I say here.  Anyway, here it goes ... First of all, I do NOT plan to live outside the United States, at least for the time being, for the sole purpose that I feel there's a LOT of work (Islamic work) that needs to be done here, and I feel that Allah (swt) has placed me here for a reason.  I don't see how I can benefit my surroundings more in any other country, be it Muslim or non-Muslim, because *this* is the place where I was raised, *this* is the society about which I know the most, and *these* are the people who I can talk to most easily about Islam.   I went to school here, and I went to (and am currently going to) college here.  I have seen the problems that the people here face everyday.  I know how they think, how they behave, what's good in them and what's bad.  I know what appeals to them and what doesn't.  I know what makes them listen and what makes them run away.  All of this, and more, gives me a better ability to talk to them and invite them to Islam than to ... say ... an Australian! What about a Pakistani, you say.  Wasn't I born in Pakistan?  Yeah.  But I wasn't raised there.  I kind of have an idea of what teenagers go through there, but not exactly!  I still look at my cousins in amazement sometimes when they tell me what high-schoolers there do at school and out of school, shocked at the state of affairs.  And they laugh at my amazement, calling me naive and completely ignorant about our own culture and the present state of affairs.   How can I talk to people who I don't know?  The first thing they'll tell me when I make da'wah to them will be ... "boy, you don't even know half of what we're going through ... easy for you to say these things ..." etc etc Basically, what I'm trying to say is, you have to know the people, their language ([i]lingo[/i], I'm talking about more than just the "language" here), their culture, their problems, their strengths, their weaknesses, their morals, their history, their ideals and their beliefs before you can talk to them and be really successful in your da'wah.  Go and read any book about the methodology of da'wah, and it'll tell you to know the people whom you're making da'wah to first! This is indeed why every nation was sent a Prophet from among them.  That is, he was not a stranger to them.  In fact, most if not all of the Prophets were born in families that were well-known in the surrounding areas.  They were not families that were outcasts or isolated from the rest of the community.  Therefore the Prophets were all aware of the exact diseases that existed in their communities because they had seen them with their own eyes. Now, what does all this have to do with me sending my kid to a public or a private school?   A LOT!!! When I raise my kid in this country, I want to raise a [i]daa'ee[/i].  I want to raise a kid who will become an ambassador of Islam in this country.  A person who people will look at and say, "man, that guy/girl is a Muslim?  I wanna be like that!"   In all honesty, I don't see how you can raise a daa'ee ... a person who has all the qualities that I mentioned above ... if he has been raised isolated from the society around him.   I would send my kid to a public school, knowing full well the dangers of being among desires and temptations every day from 8 to 4.  My child *needs* to be with these people, to interact with them, in order to understand his audience and the people that surround him.  I can't put him under a shelter all his life, and then give him a complete culture shock when he enters college, because his whole life, he was just used to being with Muslims!!  (In worst cases, I know of people who changed a 180 degrees upon entering college after spending their whole life in Islamic schools, because they were completely unprepared for the culture shock that occurred). Of course there is a big condition that has to be placed next to all this.  And that is ... There has to be EXTENSIVE tarbiyyah at home for the kid.  The parents (me and my wife) MUST take an active role in rearing the kid.  To make sure that he knows who he is first and foremost - a Muslim.  To instill an Islamic identity and the Islamic purpose in the child's heart.  To make him aware of what he is going to see in school, and how to overcome the pitfalls of Shaytaan in his daily life.   Tarbiyyah also means to make sure that the child is raised in and nurtured by a close-knit, vibrant Islamic community - a community with good Muslims, good Masaajid, good Muslim youth who the child can hang out with, and just a good sense of brotherhood.  I think it's also the parents' responsibility to provide the child with such an atmosphere, and to make sure that he's raised in such a community.   Now ... IF the mother and father are both too busy with other things, and they know for sure that they cannot devote enough time to make tarbiyyah to their kid, then sending the kid to an Islamic school is definitely the better way to go ... but I say it's STILL not enough!  The parents MUST make their best effort to be there for their children at home.  This is their primary responsibility as parents.  If they can't even do that, then I say they should go to a Muslim country to save their child.  They don't belong here.  It's faaaaaar too easy for the child to become lost in the society, whether going to an Islamic school or public school, if the parents are not involved directly and deeply with the tarbiyyah of the child. Alright, one more additional condition ... and this was mentioned by someone up there I think ... I would send my kid to an Islamic school for the first part of their education, say until 4th or 5th grade, and *then* I would send him to a public school.  The reason is two-fold. First, the whole idea of instilling an Islamic identity into a child really starts at that age.  Most of the fundamental identity of a person is really established in that age, and what happens later is either an enhancement or a modification of that personality, based on the adolescent experiences of the child.  I think it would be a lot more efficient, and easier, if the child were to go to an Islamic school during these fundamental years of his age, while getting tarbiyyah from home as well. Second, my whole goal of raising a daa'ee who knows the society around him really doesn't take effect until the child matures a little bit.  He has to reach an age where he starts rationalizing things.  An age where he can really start observing the behavioral patterns of those around him and notice how and why they differ from what he has always been taught, and begin to convince himself that indeed what he has always learned from his parents *is* the right way of doing things, and that he needs to, somehow, show the other people what his parents have shown him from day one to be the Truth! So ... Islamic school until 4th/5th grade, public school from there on, WITH extensive tarbiyyah and attention from parents at home the entire time.  That's what I would do with my kid.   I hope that answers the question :) One last thing.  The definition of "extensive tarbiyyah" may vary from person to person.  Someone may think that if a child is praying regularly and fasting the month of ramadan, then the parents have fulfilled their responsibility of making tarbiyyah to them.  That their child is now a "good Muslim."  This is obviously not what I'm talking about!  When I say "extensive tarbiyyah," I mean to make sure that the child is growing to be a *strong* Muslim -- a Muslim who, quite simply, wants to live his *everyday life* seeking the Pleasure of Allah (swt) ... and nothing else! P.S.  For those not married, does all this mean that we have to start with finding a good spouse for ourselves?  Absolutely! P.P.S.  Does that mean we ourselves have to straighten out our act?  To make sure our child has a role model at home to look up to?  You bet! Wallaahu a'lam. Wassalamu alaikum wa rahmatullaahi wabarakatuh.
03/10/02 at 00:13:24
Abu_Hamza

Re: Islamic School or Public School?
Noor
03/10/02 at 06:49:44
[slm] good post bro Abu Hamza [quote]For those not married, does all this mean that we have to start with finding a good spouse for ourselves? [/quote] ahh...i knew there'd be a catch to it   ;D j/k

Re: Islamic School or Public School?
Laboogie
03/10/02 at 09:10:02
[slm] [quote]a. little abdullah running home from school, telling me *all* about how auntie-ji had to teach forty kids in one classroom, with ten text books or b. little abdullah running home and telling me *all* about how he learned that suzie has two mommies, and that this is a normal and healthy family structure.. [/quote] A-happens in public schol as well B-I understand what u are saying but  call me 'different' and 'strange' if u most but If my lil abulrahman ;) learns about the different family structures that we have IN THIS society then hey, but of course Im going to let him know, that aint right my lil man, but thats what we are living in....all u need to do is have respect ....I dont want my child to grow up not knowing about the society that he is dealing with and then when he grows up his like SHOCK and doesnt know how to deal with it, and totally has disrepect for them...especially after auntie ji told him that they are going to hell , they are nasty,etc...and he goes and repeats that to them, yeah ok...sorry but thats not how im going to raise my lil abdul-rahman and my nusayibah ;) but anyways I get what ya saying sistah :-X..... I have to agree with abu-hamzah, said a lot of good points.....its all about trying to survive in this society.... peace L
03/10/02 at 09:12:24
Laboogie

Re: Islamic School or Public School?
Road2Jannah
03/10/02 at 15:57:57
[slm] Mashallah :-*, this is a very interesting topic. I liked very much how Abu Hamza stated his ideas, they were very good mashallah. But i have a question here if the rasul  [saw]was to live today, would he like us to take that risk of interacting with fitnah, since most of us are at the risk of low eman?Also who is in more in danger of public school; the sisters, or the brothers? It seems alot scholars always warn women about going to public school, or even tell them not to finish since they know how to read and write because of the dangers of  interacting  with men and the negative things that will come out of it. i want to know what's ur opinions on this matter. Jazakum Allahu kheir. ur sister fi llah.  :-)

Re: Islamic School or Public School?
Laboogie
03/10/02 at 16:40:50
[slm] [quote]Also who is in more in danger of public school; the sisters, or the brothers? It seems alot scholars always warn women about going to public school, or even tell them not to finish since they know how to read and write because of the dangers of  interacting  with men and the negative things that will come out of it.[/quote] ummm, I dont know -I think both can be in danger...sorry but thats my feelings...I cant say that sisters are more or brothers are more...and its just kills me when I hear stuff like that ' that its too dangerous for a sister ( I think thats WACK )....I dont know, so Im not going to say much here since I might come off wrong....so I said my piece  ;)

Re: Islamic School or Public School?
Abu_Hamza
03/10/02 at 18:07:22
[slm] [quote] if the rasul  [saw]was to live today, would he like us to take that risk of interacting with fitnah, since most of us are at the risk of low eman?[/quote] This entire world is a fitnah for a believer sister!  Allah (swt) says in the Qur'an, "And know that your possessions and your children are a test [fitnah], and that with Allah is immense reward."  (8:28 ) And ... "Your wealth and your children are only a temptation [fitnah], whereas Allah! with Him is an immense reward."  (64:15) So, if we are to completely avoid fitnah, should we not get married or acquire wealth?  No, because our example is the Prophet [saw], and we know that he married women and he himself acquired money and allowed his companions to do so. If we were to completely isolate ourselves from fitnah, we would become ascetics, and go live in the woods or the deserts.  But that is not the teaching of our Prophet [saw].  He taught us to live in this world, not outside of it.  But he also taught us to live in it as a stranger.  To understand that this life is only a bridge, a means to an end, a trial, etc.  We are to live [i]with[/i] the people, teach them what is good, forbid what is bad, take from them whatever is good, shun away whatever is bad, and indulge in and encourage the worship of Allah (swt). So what seems to me to be the answer to your question, sister, is that Rasulullah [saw] would not isolate himself from the society.  He was a Prophet, a warner.  And he wouldn't be able to warn the people if he didn't interact with them and live amongst them.   [quote]Also who is in more in danger of public school; the sisters, or the brothers? [/quote] I'm going to be the radical one here and say it's the brothers who are more in danger of public school, especially if the brother's parents are your typical desi parents! The reason is because the rules for guys are always a lot more relaxed in desi culture than the girls'.  The guy can stay out of the house longer, hang out with non-Muslim friends more often, spend the night at someone else's place more often, etc ... than the girl.  So the guy, because he's given more freedom from the parents, experiences a lot more temptation than the girl.  Combine that with a male's natural tendencies of boldness and forwardness, and you are putting the guy in a really difficult situation. The girls are, in general, naturally more shy and restrained than guys, and in the typical Eastern cultured family, she has a lot more restrictions placed on her at home than her brother. If the household is really unique, and both the son and the daughtr experience an equal amount of restraints from home, I'd still say the brother is more in danger.  This is, again, due to his natural tendencies that are a lot more rebellious than the girl's.   Wallahu a'lam. Wassalamu alaikum wa rahmatullah :)
03/10/02 at 18:08:36
Abu_Hamza

Re: Islamic School or Public School?
UmmAbdulRahman
03/10/02 at 20:27:06
[slm] Interesting post Abu Hamza...I agree with you on a lot of what you said and I thought you made some very good,valid points.  However I wanted to comment on this: [quote] In all honesty, I don't see how you can raise a daa'ee ... a person who has all the qualities that I mentioned above ... if he has been raised isolated from the society around him.  [/quote] I do think that Muslim students can go to Muslim schools without being isolated from the outside society.  To assure this is the job of the school and the parents-and I do think that the child should be doing something beneficial while integrating with non-Muslim society. For example, I know a sister here in my community who has 5 children.  They all go to Muslim junior high and high school and they are all practicing Muslims.  They all have gone to Muslim schools since elementary school too.  O.K.  now, all of them have played sports with town teams (even the girls in hijab!), they all have attended various local and national academic competitions, they do volunteering at community organizations, and are active in their schools in organizing visits and gatherings with non-Muslim schools and organizations.  To me, they are not isolated at all and at the same time their protected. What do I mean by that?  I see your point about raising a child to be completely literate with it's society and it's people.  But putting a child in a public school over an Islamic school for the sake of raising a daee'  in my opinion can be dangerous.  Those of us who have gone to public school knows what goes on there-and I'll be blunt-people have sex as casually as drinking soda and they talk about it and everyone hears it.  THe health curriculum consists of sex education (I remember in high school, during one health class the teacher initiated a conversation about sex where everyone ended up talking about how many partners they've had, what they would do if they got AIDS-one girl said she would spread it-, what sex was like, etc.), the health curriculum also consists of demonstrating how to use a particular method of birth control, drugs and smoking are also incredibly common even among students of "well-to-do" families.  I mean, I could go on forever, literally.  Now, how could someone place their child in this environment.  We can not use a means to justify an ends.  THe protection of our families comes first.  Even if the child has had and continues to have extensive tarbiyah, does not mean that his/her iman will be immune to these exposures.  Even adults are not immune to it.  Why are adult Muslims more and more every day throwing away their TV sets?  Because we know and feel the impact the TV has on our iman.  Many of us know that insha'Allah we would never, ever do the things we see actors doing on TV. So one would say, "well then, what's the harm in watching it?"  But we all know the harm that is done inside ourselves when we watch TV.   I would like to remind us of the following hadith Qudsi where Allah says- "Whosoever shows enmity to someone devoted to Me, I shall be at war with him.  My servant draws not near to Me with anything more loved by Me than the religious duties I have enjoined upon him, and My servant continues to draw near to Me with supererogatory works so that I shall love him.  When I love him, I am his hearing with which he hears, his seeing with which he sees, his hand with which he strikes, and his foot with which he walks. Were he to ask [something] of Me, I would surely give it to him, and were he to ask Me for refuge, I would surely grant him it.  I do not hesitate about anything as much as I hesitate about [seizing] the soul of My faithful servant: he hates death and I hate hurting him." The part that I have bolded I have heard been interpreted by scholars and well learned people.  they have said that of course, Allah does not literally become our eyes or our ears, how High He is above that, but rather, Allah, when He loves us, allows us only to see, hear, and touch good things and to walk towards good things-things that are not harmful to us.  Also, we know that when we make wudu, we are washing away all of the huram and harmful things we have seen, heard, and touched.  Protection is an element of tarbiyah.   I think that I have lost a lot of shyness from being raised in the public school system.  We become desensitized to the sins that are being committed around us and we do not want our hearts to be in that state-we should always be in a state of sadness and grief when we see such horrible sins being committed around us-and it's hard, if not impossible, to be like that when we are exposed to kufr each and every day for long periods of time.   Ultimately, I do really believe that parents can raise a child without isolating them to the outside world-it just takes a lot of effort, creativity, and resourcefullness.   May Allah protect us and our children and guide us all to the straight path...

Re: Islamic School or Public School?
sofia
03/10/02 at 20:30:37
Assalaamu 'alaikum wa rahmatullah [quote]I'm going to be the radical one here and say it's the brothers who are more in danger of public school, especially if the brother's parents are your typical desi parents! [/quote] Couldn't agree more with this statement (as most of the sisters here would agree).  Seems it's not just a desi phenomenon, though. Other reasons have already been eluded to (I can't speak for the brothers, since I'm not one), but let me just put it to you this way.  Even the seemingly "strong" brothers have complained about how tough it is to be  a Muslim male in the West.  Not surprised, I mean, just look around!  Ok, never mind.  Lower the gaze, brothers.   ::)

Re: Islamic School or Public School?
Asim
03/10/02 at 23:44:29
Assalaamu alaikum, Abu Hamza, your post did surprise me a bit. You did make some good points but I have questions regarding your reasonings. UmmAbdulRahman has said most of what I wanted to say, but I will post my 2 kobos worth anyway. I wonder whether being a great daaee is more important than being a righteous Muslim ? As someone has pointed out, why take the risk? A good kid, firm in his deen, will also be a good daaee. The converse, however, is not true. Of course, there is no guarantee that a child that goes to Islamic school would turn out a-okay but the probability will be greater inshallah. Also, I am a firm believer in the fact that environment subtly changes our way of thinking, perspectives, outlooks, likes/dislikes, and goals. Putting a child in public school exposes him/her more to this danger in their formative years through the general fitnah and curriculum based on non-Islamic philosophies. To assume that parents can effectively counter the child’s public school's experiences is simplistic; it won’t be easy. Moreover, these efforts can create conflicts in a young child’s mind. Once a person’s thoughts are molded and set they are very hard to change. Oftentimes they are very subtle but they do slant the person’s perspectives. Furthermore, an Islamic school would make doing good easy and evil hard (some examples were presented in this thread). Why risk racking up evils by sending kids to public schools when an alternative is available? We need all the good and as little of the evil on the day when the only currency would be our deeds. That should be the primary criterion in all our decisions. We live a global media driven village and I don’t quite buy your theory that a child has to go to a public school to learn the lingo of the land. Just my thoughts :) Wasalaam.
03/11/02 at 00:01:49
Asim

Re: Islamic School or Public School?
Abu_Hamza
03/12/02 at 01:47:11
[slm] I wrote a reply to Asim and UmmAbdulRahman's posts, and while I was in the middle of it, I accidentally closed the IE window ... >:( Oh well! If you haven't read the other thread in the Naseeha Corner called "a letter from a mother", check out the first post in it.   THAT ... is my biggest fear of Islamic schools!  That my kid will grow up to be a child who despises the [i]kuffaar[/i], and think that they're all bad, horrible people who deserve to be killed because they're all enemies of Allah and His Deen!   No, not all Islamic schools are like that.  But unfortunately, a lot of *parents* are like that!  In trying to keep their children clean from the society, they end up exaggerating the evilness of the non-Muslims to their kids, and over-generalize about them so much that the kids grow up despising the people around them.  When they enter college and see the reality, you can imagine the consequences!  Loss of trust in their parents?  Loss of trust in everything they learned in Islamic schools?   I think the example of the family that UmmAbdulRahman gave is *rare* to find!  And like she said, it's hard to be creative and find ways to integrate your kids in the society if they are going to a full-time school.  I wonder how many parents will actually exert an effort to do that with their kids. But if you feel you can do that efficiently, to a point where when your kid talks to a non-Muslim in college, he can understand what he's going through and show him the path accordingly, I'd say go for Islamic schools! To respond to what Asim said, I don't believe that being a good Muslim is more important than being a good daa'ee.  I think they're equally important, especially if your kid is going to stay in this country.   There was a thread once on the old board which was started by a brother who was seeking advice about whether or not to go to the prom at high school!  I've seen such questions on other messageboards, and the severe replies that people get from fellow brothers and sisters ... ASTAGHFIRULLAH!!!  FEAR ALLAH!!!  What you're doing is HARAAM!!!  (caps are not mine :)) It's interesting that most of these harsh replies come from people who were not raised here, and thus never experienced that struggle of saying no to prom or things of that nature.   Compare that reaction to the reaction we had on our old board, when Sr. Jannah replied to that brother in such beautiful words that I almost had tears in my eyes!  The brother ended up not going to the prom, and *understanding* why it was not good for him to go :)  Alhamdulillah! What I'm saying is, having been there, done that gives you that edge when making da'wah to people.  You understand what the person is going through, and thus it's easier for you to talk to them on their level.  If you have no idea what they're going through, it's *hard* to talk to people on their level.   That's my two cents, and hopefully my last post in this thread :) Wallaahu a'lam Wassalamu alaikum wa rahmatullah

Re: Islamic School or Public School?
Umm_Abdul_Haqq
03/12/02 at 11:35:15
Asalam Alaikum dear Brothers and Sisters, Insha allah you are all well.   I changed my mind about Muslim schools after spending some time working in them recently (in UK).  Check out the article below. I personally went to a Public school myself, and by the grace of Allah became strong in Islam. I actually did an assignment on this issue recently during my MA, might be useful just to state some of my findings, which were by interviewing (questionaires) and observing muslim girls in school, I found that parental upbringing, family/friends and home environment are the key factors in shaping children- the schools have very little effect. Ma Salams Muslim Schools: A View From The Inside Yahiya Emerick launches a scathing attack on the hypocrisy of immigrant Muslim parents in North America. "Most parents send their kids here for reasons other than Islam, lamented the principal of a large Muslim school. "A lot of our students have older brothers and sisters who have gone out of control. They smoke, use drugs, sleep around and disobey their parents." I knew from my own experience that what he was saying was true. In my first year of teaching I had met the families of many of my students in the Muslim school. What I saw shocked me. Trying To End Up With At Least One Good One The older siblings were completely and thoroughly non-Muslim in their behavior and demeanor. One girl had an older brother with an arm full of tattoos! The girl, who had seven older siblings that went through an urban public school told me that her parents were sending her to the Muslim school because they wanted "at least one good one." On another occasion, I happened to be standing in the school office talking to the secretary when a middle-aged, Indo-Pak couple came in with their teenage daughter. She was wearing tight jeans, no Hijab and a lot of make-up. Her face said it all: she's been around. Her parents, as it turned out, wanted to enroll her in the Muslim school because they didn't want her to become "Christian." Oh... the parents also mentioned that she had a boyfriend and that they didn't want her to "get into trouble." She was enrolled in the ninth grade and therefore would be in my Islamic Studies class. As it happened, she didn't know how to pray, she never made Wudu in her life and she knew nothing of Islamic teachings. She was, for all practical purposes, a non-Muslim with a Muslim sounding name. Do you see a pattern emerging here? After having been involved with Muslim education for the last seven years as a teacher in Sunday schools, summer schools and full-time Muslim schools, I have had the chance to observe the immigrant Muslim community very closely. I wish I could say the indigenous Muslim community, but the immigrants have not seen fit to spread Islam to native-born Americans, but that's another story. The idea behind Muslim education is simple: our children identify with those around them so they should be schooled with other Muslim children in an environment that is friendly to Islam. The theory goes that when they graduate they will be practicing and believing Muslims, ready to take their rightful place in society. This goal should be the first and foremost priority of every Muslim in the world. After all, what's more important: being rich in this life but losing your soul to eternal punishment, or somehow getting by in this life and gaining Paradise in the next? The Aim of Muslim Families: Get Rich Quick In my voluminous experience, most Muslim families have chosen the first option. Muslim families are, by and large, more concerned with their child being rich than with them going to Paradise after this short life is over. The depth of this statement is sickening when I consider all the wealthy families I've seen who practice little to no Islam but go crazy if their child gets lower than a 95 percent on any test. Their child could be cursing, smoking, dating, fighting, cheating or whatever, but all that really matters is that the kid's going to get into medical school. So why have Muslims here and there opened Muslim schools? They usually provide a different level of education than most public schools and they're sometimes not operated in a standard manner. (Remember, I'm speaking as an insider.) Muslim Families Are Losing Their Children The answer is simple, the families are losing their children. Not losing them away from Islam, necessarily, because Islam is the first thing most families will do away with. It's much worse. The children are rejecting the ethnic culture of their parents and adopting the American culture they experience everyday. The mother and father want their child to be like them: eating kabobs, wearing a shalwar or jilbab, speaking Urdu or Arabic and identifying with the customs and ways of the old country with respect to marriage, family structure and social interaction. Who cares that the kid's not praying or wearing Hijab, they're not Pakistani or Indian or Arab anymore! Horrors! Of course, a few, a very few, families want to send their children to a Muslim school so the children will be staunch believers. Such families know what the most important ingredient in a person's life is. Sure, their children will grow up to become doctors or engineers or whatever, but the main priority in the household is that whatever they do, they will do it as practicing Muslims. But such families are not the majority in a Muslim school project. The vast majority of students who come to Islamic schools are from families where Islam is either not practiced or is mixed in with cultural ways and never fully explained to the children. By the time the parents notice their children have different values from them it's too late. The children are thoroughly "Americanized" (whatever that means) and love pizza, video games and alternative music. They date, disrespect their elders and dabble in alcohol or whatever. Perhaps the older siblings are so completely corrupted that the parents want that "one good one." Parents want Teachers to Save Their Child Do you know how many parents have come to me in the last seven years begging me to "save their child?" One man enrolled his three children in my summer school and they were so wild and unruly that the teachers asked me to remove them, and they were all under nine years old! These monsters were cursing, throwing things and fighting with all the other children around them with no regard to any manners or respect. When I called the mother to take them home she came in a mini-skirt and Mercedes. The father called me and when I told him that our small summer school program couldn't handle this type of serious discipline problem, he sobbed that his wife, who was a non-Muslim, was turning his children into "Christians." I suggested to him that he should spend more time with the children but he brushed that idea aside saying that he owned three businesses and was always away from home. He wanted the summer school to teach his kids the "Moslem religion." Hey, we all dig our own graves and decide what really matters. How Many Muslim Schools Start Off So what about the schools themselves? A typical Muslim school is started by a group of concerned parents who quickly attract big-name players who are eager to soothe their consciences over their haram business dealings. These doctors, businessmen, engineers and other professionals develop a project outline and raise funds. Usually they have to go outside to Arabia or other foreign sources for the bulk of the money because local donors are a bit scarce. (Abu Bakr donated all he had when the cause of Allah needed it. I've seen millionaires give less than a thousand dollars at fundraising dinners. Then they intone that being wealthy is allowed in Islam. But not if you're not willing to part with the money when the cause needs it!) After the school is built, the original concerned parents are muscled out of the Board of Directors and the qualifying criteria for a seat on the board becomes tied to the size of a person's bank account. (Don't disagree with this statement because you know it's true.) The Role of Teachers in Muslim Schools Then the school advertises for teachers and a principal. The starting salary that the school is willing to pay is somewhere below the poverty level. Of course they could pay competitive wages but who wants to sell their Mercedes Benz or mansion just to augment the salary of a poor Muslim teacher? There are two types of people who work in a Muslim school: those who care and are willing to sacrifice for the cause and then those sho can't find a job anywhere else. There are no exceptions to this rule. In my experience, the usual ratio between those who care and those who can't find a better job is about three to ten. For every ten teachers, three will care about Islam and the other seven just happen to be biding their time until a better job opens up. Many teachers are unqualified to teach according to local public school standards and most don't know how to relate to American-raised children. In all my years of teaching I have only seen perhaps twenty out of a hundred Muslim teachers who knew how to teach kids. The rest would either bore the kids with lectures, yell and curse at them or stand mute in the class as the kids took over. (I guess the same holds true for public schools in inner cities.) The School Administration : Not Much Better The administration of the school usually fares no better. Most schools are run in the drab, third-world methodology where one man dominates like a lord in his castle. No one is important but him and nepotism and favoritism are rampant. If you're just off the plane from the old country and you're so and so's cousin or aunt or brother-in-law, you've got a job. If you're a true believer in Allah, behave as a sincere Muslim and love kids you're likely to feel like a misfit in this type of environment. So with all these difficulties in Muslims schools, again, why are they popping up all over? Muslim Communities : The Three Dangers Many parents look at the schools as the savior of their children after the children have embraced "American" values. But is this the way to establish Islam here? Reacting when it's too late? Our communities are not even communities to begin with. For most Muslims, they are the only Muslims on their street or in their neighborhood. The term "community" is used but how can we say "our local Muslim community" when all there is are scattered families here and there who happen to drive to the Masjid for dinner parties once a month? That's the first level of danger. We're isolated from each other and interact with non-Muslims most of the time. The second danger is that some of our Masjids are being operated by people who would be considered hypocrites in the Medina of the Prophet's (peace and blessings be upon him) time. They have Haram earnings, they look for fame and status and they feel nostalgic surrounded by people of the same ethnic group as they. The Masjids are ethnic clubs by and large! Those of you who have converted to Islam know what I'm talking about! Therefore, our Masjids are dead structures with next to no meaningful Dawa or community support being conducted. The third problem then, becomes our children. Out of the six million or whatever Muslims that our foolish pollsters claim to be here in North America, perhaps only half a million fit the definition of a Muslim according to the Quran and Sunnah. Many of the second and third generation kids are gone. That leaves only a few hundred thousand Muslims who will take over when the older generation dies off. Out of those kids, only perhaps two percent have any contact with a Muslim school where they can develop a sense of belonging to a community. Our Children are not Surrounded by Muslims! What the immigrants fail completely to understand is that they grew up surrounded by Muslims so it's much easier to feel like a Muslim, even if you don't practice Islam very much. Our children are growing up with almost no Muslims around them and are therefore identifying themselves as non-Muslims! Muslim Schools : The Only Hope for the Future? Despite all the problems associated with a Muslim school, then, one fact remains. In my experience, it is the only place where you can give Dawa to the next generation and show them what it means to be a believer. I've seen problem after problem in the structure of Muslim schools, but at the same time, I've seen the awareness of Islam and Iman blossom in even the most lost of children. I was telling a parent the other day that the only ones, by and large, who will be Muslims after us, are those who went to Muslim schools. He objected and said that the local Sunday school was providing all the Islamic education the kids needed. Well, I visited that Sunday School on numerous occasions and found the children to be more non-Muslim than the non-Muslims! The teachers were sincere but helpless, the children were noisy and disinterested and the principal ran from problem to problem like he was in a soccer game. Again, we all dig our own graves and decide what is really important. I just hope there will be a Muslim community twenty years from now when the old people, who grew up in Muslim countries, die off. In my experience, the only children who remain Muslim are those who had very strong Islamic tendencies in their family or those who went through Muslim schools. So while Muslim schools are not perfect, it's the only way that many children will be saved from the Hellfire. It would be nice if the Muslim community got serious about its schools and its future. In some places they are. What about your neighborhood?

Re: Islamic School or Public School?
jannah
03/12/02 at 18:12:36
wow..!!! that brotha tells it like it is!!! i see the same thing in our community, the EXACT same thing.. but what can we do about it as individuals.. someone should email him and ask him for some constructive suggestions and stuff.. maybe things that WORKED in their community can be implemented in others... [wlm]

HOMESCHOOL! :)
Jenna
03/13/02 at 04:20:29
Wa'alaikum Assalaam wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuh Homeschool! I was homeschooled all my life SubhanAllah, and I turned out just fine Alhumdulilah. SubhanAllah where I live, the "Islaamic" schools are just as bad as the public school system. Allahu'Alim, but to me, by the time my son is old enough to go to highschool, it wil probably be extremely corrupted (as if its not already)!! I swear these kids of today are pumped up with Sex and Violence and Homosexuality, why should I expose my child/ren to this?? Even if they STRONG in the deen?? Our own Prophet Muhammad (saw) told us to stay away from the Shaytaan because we may go astray. We are Human and we can be weak, so why should I even expose my kids(s) to this, when I dont even expose my ownself to it??? Even when we migrate InshaAllah, I am not putting him in schools outside his home, except for arabic/tafseer class which InshaAllah I will be present. And InshaAllah when he gets older like college of course he will have to go out, yet InshaAllah I will find the best Islaamic college for him to go to. I am beging to Allah that he agrees to go school to become a scholar!! InshaAllah! [glow=red,2,300]Sheikh Muffin!![/glow] hmmmmmmmmmmm *Ahem* sorry day dreaming! Anyways.... .... I dont trust the world and I have every right to do so (not that any one is saying I dont  ;) )  A lot of Muslims today have no Taqwa (fear of Allah)  :( so they will do just about anything. I don't trust the world. I know someday he will have to go out in it, yet InshaAllah I am going to protect him as much as possible (of course with the Help of our ONLY protector Allah swt). Lets not forget! They can go to highschool online!!!  :) :) :) Allahu'Alim Jenna  :-)
03/13/02 at 15:59:53
Jenna

Re: Islamic School or Public School?
imaazh
03/13/02 at 08:07:55
Salaams So far everyone has posted really interesting comments about this issue, from various different view points. As a pre-service secondary school teacher, hoping to enter the workforce next year (please make dua that i get through my prac in one piece!),  I face the dilemma of choosing between entering the state school system (as they call it in Australia) or the Islamic schools, as a first year teacher.  I had read the article by brother Yahya Emerick a few years ago,  and it was one of the things that really influenced me in my decision to become a teacher in an Islamic school.   However, now i'm not so sure.   The Islamic schools in Australia are just starting to emerge, they too have many problems such as have been extensively described in previous posts. My dream has been to teach in  an islamic school, but now i'm wondering if i should work in the state schools first, gain some experience and then enter the Islamic schools.  I also think it would be an incredible opportunity for da'wah.  What do you think?   ??? ???

Re: Islamic School or Public School?
Abu_Ikrima
03/19/02 at 17:02:50
[slm] I must say I agree a lot with Umm AbdulRahman and Asim.   As Muslims in this country, I believe it is imperative to our survival that we begin setting up institutions (political, economic, educational, etc.).  If we examine the seerah and the history of other successful civilizations in the world (both past and present), we will notice that they all established these institutions. For our short history in America, we have been Alhamdulillah rather successful in establishing masajid across the country, the center of all institutions.  Without an educational institution, other efforts may be futile, because the future of the civilization is not being properly developed. Alhamdulillah, it is good to know that there are Muslims that can go through public school and turn out just wonderful, but I do not believe we can depend on this option.  Putting the future of this country (Muslim children) in the hands of those who do not submit to the will of Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala is extremely scary and possibly detrimental to the future of Islam in this country. I was born and raised in America; I went to public school.  The high school I went to would probably be considered an excellent school academically and pretty good as far as not having drugs, crime, etc.  Nevertheless, the only way I can describe it is as “the hell of the dunya”.  If you’re child is in any way active as far as extracurricular activities (e.g. sports, clubs), they are going to be exposed to stuff far beyond the imagination of some of our parents, especially those who have not gone to school here.   The schools of today are no longer the schools of 20 years.  They are not even the school of 5 years ago.  I recently graduated from high school and have talked to brothers who have graduated 5-6 years ago and the descriptions are quite different.  Some of you may have seen the article on the cover of USA Today a few days ago, and it clearly pointed out that the morality present in American public schools is deteriorating. Even if the child does not get into the “major bad stuff”, the habits that are picked up in these schools sometimes never leave and can gnaw at your heart until it slowly melts away.   Personally, I cannot imagine sending my child to a public school, knowing what he/she will be exposed to.  I would be in constant worry.   I just pray that I will be able to make the sacrifice that so many parents today are not willing to make.  Will I be able to send my child to an Islamic school, pay the extra cash every month?  Or will I be thinking, “what kind of college will my child be able to get into if he goes to an Islamic school”? May Allah give us the strength to overcome the pleasures of this Dunya and always keep the Akhira in mind.   May Allah guide us all and may He make the future of Islam in this country strong.     [slm]

Re: Islamic School or Public School?
tq
03/20/02 at 08:09:41
Assalamo elikuim Being a mother I definitely agree with Asim, UmmAbdulRahman   , ZIL and Seven. In my opnion (and everybody is free not to agree :) ) we should send our kids to Islamic school, even if the school has less qualified teachers (atleast till 7-8 grade  if there are no proper HS ) unless there are financial issues. The reason most of the parents sent their kids to Islamic school is for islamic environment . Education is important but Islamic environment is more important , I could spend extra time tutoring my kids mathes, science etc (Being a desi it is very important for me that my kids get college education :)  )  but I cannot replace the Islamice environment they get in the school for 6 ½ hours. Ofcourse kids learn islamic values from home/parents but the environment they are in also effect them . Also Abu Hamza how could the kids going to Islamic school be isolated form the society while living in the society?  There are  neighbours , TV(controlled), interaction with people at stores,bank etc etc. About  the example some body gave of kids hating the kafirs – that is where parents have to teach kids that this is not right if they have learned this at the school(parents do teach/correct kids even if they are going to Islamic school :) ) It surely doesn’t mean that all the kids who are going to Islamic school are going to be perfect Muslim or Muslimah or that all the kids going to Public school are going to be bad Muslim/Muslimah but as a parent we can only try and do what we think is best for the kids and leave the rest to Allah swt ( you know kind of tying your camel :)  ) Wasalam tq

Re: Islamic School or Public School?
fiza
03/25/02 at 16:48:01
salamzz jus lie to say m opinion...i go to an islamic skool and i think it really mkes a difference....ie surroundings...food matters.....etc and i wud advise every parent to re consider sending their children to public skool  [wlm]

Re: Islamic School or Public School?
bismilla
03/26/02 at 10:21:17
[slm] :-) bsm I just thought it would be appropriate to add that just because a school is run with an Islamic ethos, does not mean it is PRIVATE. We have PUBLIC "Islamic" schools that are open to all and sundry on condition of course that they follow the Islamic codes in terms of dress and behaviour, etc. All for now, Jazak Allah  :-* [slm]
03/26/02 at 10:24:06
bismilla
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