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Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| Andrea Yates & Islam's view on Insanity |
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| Ruqayyah |
| 03/13/02 at 18:21:06 |
| [slm] What are everyone's thoughts about Andrea Yate's guilty verdict? and what is Islam's view on Insanity? [wlm] Ruqayyah |
| Re: Andrea Yates & Islam's view on Insanity |
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| EdisonShi |
| 03/14/02 at 22:29:56 |
| Can one of the scholars answer this. I have the same question. Thanks. |
| Re: Andrea Yates & Islam's view on Insanity |
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| bhaloo |
| 03/14/02 at 22:57:17 |
| [slm] Who is Andrea Yates, and what is special about her? sheikh munajjid answered the following question: Question: My sister was born brain damaged meaning that even though she had a physical appearance of a 16 years old, She had the mental age of a 4 year old, She was unable to write nor read. My sister died about a month ago, and i was wondering whether she would go to Heaven or Hell? Answer: Praise be to Allaah. and blessings and peace be upon the Messenger of Allaah. We ask Allaah to have mercy on her, and to join you with her in the Gardens of Delight (Paradise). The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Every child is born in state of fitrah (the natural disposition of man), then his parents make him a Jew or a Christian or a Magian.” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 1296; Muslim, 4803). And he said: “The pen is lifted from three (i.e., their deeds are not recorded): the sleeper until he awakes, the child until he grows up, and the insane until he regains his sanity or regains consciousness.” This was narrated by the authors of Sunan and classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in al-Irwa’, no. 297. If a child is born lacking mental faculties or brain-damaged, and his parents are Muslim, then he is Muslim too. Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: “The ruling on one who is insane is like the ruling on a child: if his parents are Muslim then he is also Muslim. This is according to the consensus of the Muslims. The same applies if his mother is Muslim, according to the majority of scholars such as Abu Haneefah, al-Shaafa’i and Ahmad. Similarly, one who become insane after becoming Muslim is also regarded as a Muslim. An insane person who was born in a Muslim society is also regarded as being outwardly Muslim, like his parents or the people of the society, as is also the ruling on children. The children of the Muslims and their insane will be like their fathers (i.e., they will be counted as Muslims) on the Day of Resurrection.” (Majmoo’ al-Fataawa, 10/437) Ibn Hazm (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: “As for the insane who have no mental faculties until they die, as we have already mentioned, they are born as ‘haneefs’ (monotheists) and believers, and they do not change their faith, so they die as believers and so they will go to Paradise.” (al-Fasl 4/135). So if your sister had no mental faculties or power of discernment, and she did not understand the meaning of worship or how to do it, then the pen was lifted from her (and her deeds were not recorded), so she was still adhering to the fitrah, and we hope that she will enter Paradise. But we cannot testify that any specific person will go to Paradise, apart from those whom the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) testified would go there. But if she had mental faculties and could understand things, then she is accountable like everyone else, and she will be rewarded or punished for whatever she did after she reached adolesence. If she was fine sometimes and not at others, then she will be rewarded or punished for whatever she did at the times when her reason was sound. And Allaah knows best |
| Re: Andrea Yates & Islam's view on Insanity |
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| Caraj |
| 03/15/02 at 11:38:18 |
| For those out of the country and don't know who this Yates lady is, she is a lady in the US who was accused of killing her 5 children :'( and convicted of 3 of the 5 deaths so far. If anyone has questions for the purpose of answering this thread message me and I'll email you some news articals. Don't quote me but I believe the youngest was only 6 months old and the oldest 6 or 7 yrs old. She drowned them in the tub in her home while her husband was at work. Such an awful and sad thing. |
| Re: Andrea Yates & Islam's view on Insanity |
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| Sparrow |
| 03/15/02 at 15:04:20 |
| I'd be interested to know what the moms on the board think about this case. I mean the notion of postpartum as an insanity defense, obvioulsy everyone thinks murdering kids is wrong, God forbid. I think the guilty verdict was the right thing but then I have no children and don't know about it really. Peace, Sparrow |
| Re: Andrea Yates & Islam's view on Insanity |
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| Caraj |
| 03/15/02 at 18:37:34 |
| ok here's this Mom's opinion. :o There is postpartum depression, BUT I think any woman who kills her child MUST be crazy. I just don't see with maternal instinct how one could do it. Here's the thing though, her kids were 6 months, 2 yrs, 3 yrs, and two others 7 and under I think. I believe she had been treated for mental illness on and off for a while, she is married, so why would this husband continue making children with an emotionally unhealthy spouse to begin with? I guess now they are deciding if she will get the death penilty or life in prison. It will be based on several things one of which is... Is she a threat to society? WELL EXCUSE ME but killing 5 people and children at that (I don't care if they are related or not) kind of tells me she is a threat to society. Can't say I am for or against the death penilty, I feel very very mixed about it. But at the very least life in prison sounds good. This is such a sad thing, but as a Mom I cannot see any woman in her right mind killing their own child, or any child, or any human being for that matter who was not threating them. |
| 03/15/02 at 18:38:54 |
| Caraj |
| Re: Andrea Yates & Islam's view on Insanity |
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| BroHanif |
| 03/15/02 at 18:59:43 |
| [slm], Caraj, sorry to be blunt but my sister works with people in the mental health institue. From the stories she told me you'd be surprised at what people go through and what people do. If you talk to a social worker or somebody who works in mental health your opionions will be changed. Please don't be so quick in passing judgement about Andrea Yates. It is very upsetting what has happened, yet I also know some one personally who has gone though even worse than this, its very damaging on the family. Thats why I would hold my judgement on saying something outright before we have even tried to help or understand that person. I hope to Allah none of us have to go through to what others have endured. Ameen. salaams Hanif |
| Re: Andrea Yates & Islam's view on Insanity |
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| EdisonShi |
| 03/15/02 at 21:14:21 |
| I'm a severe paranoid schitzophrenic. Delusions, audiotory hullucinations, paranoia and the physical ailments that come along with it. I've been battleing this illness since 1995 and have never killed anyone. The hospital said I was a severe case, my several doctors say I am a severe case, I lost everything and was homeless before treatment, but nobody, no matter how much pain and cunfusion there in should get away with killing 5 of there own children. My schitzophrenic annonomous group discussed her plight and they for the most part all beleive she should be given treatment, but when I asked them what treatment there is for her, as we all sat there in various states of sickness, I got no reply. She should be sent back to Allah, only he knows what she is responsible for and what her punishment should be and if she is as sick as her lawyers claim, trust me that is by far the most humane thing to do. |
| Re: Andrea Yates & Islam's view on Insanity |
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| Caraj |
| 03/15/02 at 23:41:49 |
| BroHanif, If offended you in any way, please forgive me. Please read my post again. Passing judgement was not what I was trying to do. I said things such as ........................ I think ..... I just don't see .....I believe .... I guess ..... kind of tells me ..... Kind of tells me ..... I have very very mixed feelings ... This is such a sad thing ... I didn't say things like ..... SHE DID ... or ... SHE IS etc. And was only answering the one who in their posts was curious to know what the Mom's on the board thought. As for mentioning her husband and having more children. Since I am not there I don't know for sure. But from reports she has been treated and seen before for emotional problems for a while. I don't know if that is fact I myself, if my spouse was having emotional problems, I would not have more children till it was a solved issue with time passed. But this is me. I sincerely meant no offence nor wish to judge. Salaam |
| 03/15/02 at 23:46:26 |
| Caraj |
| Re: Andrea Yates & Islam's view on Insanity |
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| Ayla_A |
| 03/16/02 at 00:53:50 |
| [slm] I don't know what the punishment should be for doing what Andrea Yates did, all I know that she was failed miserably by the people around here :( Her husband failed her, he should have tried to avoid pregnancy if she was so depressed. They should have had those children in school, instead of being homeschooled. The doctors definitely failed her as well. As for the post partum depression.....Women usually don't do what Andrea Yates did when they have this, but hers had turned into Psycosis (spelling) This is when PPD goes untreated for a long time. With having 5 children in such a short time period had to have made it much worse as well...... The only thing that gives me peace is the fact that those babies are all going directly to Jannah:) [wlm] :-) Ayla_A :-) |
| Re: Andrea Yates & Islam's view on Insanity |
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| se7en |
| 03/16/02 at 13:59:37 |
| as salaamu alaykum, There is a discussion about this on a radio program on [url=http://www.ibn.net]IBN.net[/url]: Andrea Yates, 37-years-old, admitted drowning her five children last year but her defense claimed she was insane at the time. Both prosecutors and the defense in this case agree that Andrea Yates is mentally ill. While, the jury continuing to deliberate her sentencing, questions have been raised about mental illness and insanity defense. Joining us to discuss this issue are Dr. Mahir Hathout and lawyer Asim Ghafoor. |
| Re: Andrea Yates & Islam's view on Insanity |
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| Ruqayyah |
| 03/17/02 at 02:14:16 |
| [slm] Where do i go to listen to the lecture on IBN? Was it on a specific day? Having not had a chance to listen to the lecture, my opinion is that we can never truly know what it feels like to have a mental illness unless we go thru it ourselves. I really got an appreciation for that when i saw A Beautiful Mind-the movie was remarkable in that it took you inside John Nash's mind and gave the viewer a first hand look at what his life was like. [wlm] Ruqayyah |
| Re: Andrea Yates & Islam's view on Insanity |
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| zomorrud |
| 03/17/02 at 08:56:49 |
| assalamu alaikum there has been a discussion on ppd and whether it is capable of making a mother kill her baby. well, i think ppd is a serious thing especially when coupled to an existing case of chronic depression. 2 years ago, there was a tragic case in toronto. a mom holding her few months old baby was standing on the subway platform, pushed her baby in front of an incoming train then jumped herself. baby died on the scene, mom few days later in hospital from her injuries. turned out that she is a [color=blue]psychiatrist[/color]!!! she was happily married and from a squeeky clean upper crust family. but apparently she was suffering from depression before having the baby (I guess b/c she deals with people in a low mood all the time, and she internalized it or something). but the ppd just brought things to surface and the situation became unbearable. read all about it [url]http://www.chatelaine.com/article.jsp?page=health&cid=600755[/url] but the difference here, is that the mom took her own life also - which kinda indicates that she is disturbed. the yates case is different in this regard. imho, the life jail sentence is a very cruel punishment for someone who is suffering from severe mental illness. the whole act of murder was a cry for help - but there is no help that can be offered to someone like that. 3aafaana Allahu wa 3aafaakum ajma3een [may Allah protect us all] wassalamu alaikum |
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