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Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| Wrong??? |
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| Bro.__Y._Waahid |
| 03/13/02 at 18:43:08 |
| Bi-smi-llahi-r-Rahman ir-Rahim. Ashhadu al la ilaha illa-llah. Ashhadu anna Muhammadar Rasulu-llah. As-salamu `alaikum wa rahmatu-llahi wa barakatuh. Dear Sisters and Brothers, I was talking with a brother Muslim not very long ago, and a Scripture that I came across while looking for another reminded me of our conversation. In our conversation, he attempted to get me to accept the idea that hate of infidels is wrong. Do many of us share that brothers sentiments? For those of us that do share that brothers feelings, on this topic, the Scripture that reminded me of that conversation was Surah 60:4. Please read that Scripture; it is good for the believer. As-salamu `alaikum wa rahmatu-llahi wa barakatuh. |
| Re: Wrong??? |
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| ltcorpest2 |
| 03/13/02 at 20:36:40 |
| hey, i have a koran and i got to look up my 1st verse. enmity and hatred have become manifest between you and us forever, until you believe in allah. I still like infidels. can you define believe? If I believe in God, does that make me an infidel if i am not a muslim? This wasnt the most pleasant verse to look up though i must say. |
| Re: Wrong??? |
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| ltcorpest2 |
| 03/13/02 at 20:40:33 |
| also, this has some interesting implications if people really think like that. I have to run , but i do have a few questions that i will follow up on |
| Re: Wrong??? |
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| Kashif |
| 03/13/02 at 21:58:31 |
| assalaamu alaikum This is a quote taken from Ibrahim's speech to his people after they disobeyed his call to worship Allah. Recall that *his* people were the ones to show hatred to him, and prepard to slaughter him when they lit a fire and threw him into it. Here is something i found on the net: ------------------------------ Praise be to Allaah. 1- Islam is the religion of mercy and justice. 2- Muslims are commanded to call non-Muslims to Islam with wisdom and beautiful preaching and by debating in a manner that is better. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “And argue not with the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), unless it be in (a way) that is better (with good words and in good manner, inviting them to Islamic Monotheism with His Verses), except with such of them as do wrong” [al-‘Ankaboot 29:46] 3- Allaah does not accept any religion other than Islam. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “And whoever seeks a religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers” [Aal ‘Imraan 3:85] 4- The Muslims should give the kaafirs the opportunity to hear the words of Allaah. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “And if anyone of the Mushrikoon (polytheists, idolaters, pagans, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allaah) seeks your protection then grant him protection so that he may hear the Word of Allaah (the Qur’aan) and then escort him to where he can be secure” [al-Tawbah 9:6] 5- The Muslims believe that it is not permissible, under any circumstances whatsoever, for a Muslim to mistreat a non-Muslim who is not hostile towards Islam; so the Muslim should not commit aggression against him, or frighten him, or terrorize him, or steal his wealth, or embezzle him, or deprive him of his rights, or deny him his trust, or deny him his wages, or withhold from him the price of his goods when buying from him or withhold the profits of a partnership if he is in a business partnership with him. 6- The Muslims believe that it is obligatory upon the Muslims to honour treaties or agreements made with a non-Muslim party. If a Muslim has agreed to their conditions when seeking permission to enter their country (i.e., a visa) and has promised to adhere to that, then it is not permissible for him to commit mischief in their land, to betray anyone, to steal, to kill or to do any destructive action, and so on. 7-The Muslims believe that in the case of non-Muslims who wage war against them and drive them out of their homes, or help others to do so, it is permissible for Muslims to shed the blood of these non-Muslims and confiscate their wealth. 8-The Muslims believe that it is permissible for a Muslim to treat kindly those non-Muslims who are not hostile, whether by offering financial help, feeding the hungry, giving them loans if needed or interceding with regard to permissible matters, or speaking kindly to them or returning their greetings, and so on. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “Allaah does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion nor drove you out of your homes. Verily, Allaah loves those who deal with equity” [al-Mumtahanah 60:8] 9-There is no reason why Muslims should not cooperate with non-Muslims with regard to establishing truth and combating falsehood, to support the oppressed and ward off danger from mankind, such as cooperating to fight pollution or to protect the environment, or to combat epidemic diseases and so on. 10-The Muslims believe that there are differences between Muslims and non-Muslims in specific rulings such as diyah (blood money), inheritance, marriage, guardianship in marriage, entering Makkah etc., as is explained in the books of Islamic fiqh (jurisprudence). This is based on the commands of Allaah and His Messenger Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). We cannot regard as equal one who believes in Allaah alone with no partner or associate and one who disbelieves in Allaah or one who disbelieves in Allaah and joins others in worship with Him, or who turns away from the true religion. 11-Muslims are commanded to call people to Allaah in all the Muslim countries and other lands. They must convey the true religion of Allaah to the world and build mosques in all parts of the world, and send daa’iyahs (callers) to non-Muslim countries and invite their leaders to enter the religion of Allaah. 12-The Muslims believe that other people who are following other religions are not following any true religion, so the Muslims do not allow others to send missionaries to build churches in Muslim countries. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “Is then he who is a believer like him who is a Faasiq (disbeliever and disobedient to Allaah)? Not equal are they” [al-Sajdah 32:18] Whoever thinks that Islam is equal to other religions is making a serious mistake. But the Muslim scholars have opened the door to debate with non-Muslims and allow the opportunity to discuss with and listen to non-Muslims and explain the truth to them. Finally, Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “Say (O Muhammad): O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians): Come to a word that is just between us and you, that we worship none but Allaah (Alone), and that we associate no partners with Him, and that none of us shall take others as lords besides Allaah.’ Then, if they turn away, say: ‘Bear witness that we are Muslims’” [Aal ‘Imraan 3:64] “And had the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) believed, it would have been better for them” [Aal ‘Imraan 3:110]. |
| NS |
| Re: Wrong??? |
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| momineqbal |
| 03/13/02 at 22:06:46 |
| [slm], I will try and look up the verse and see what is the context of it. Infidel is an interesting word. The crusaders invented it by calling muslims infidels and spreading all sorts of lies about muslims, such as they worship the moon, or Muhammad (pbuh) etc. Dr. Jamal Badawi gave an ecellent lecture on this topic a few days back. I didnt have a chance to take notes though, but I will try to find someone who did. Maybe it will be on Islamicity sometime. The word used in the Qur'an to describe un-belief is Kufr. It literally means to cover up or to conceal. A kafir means someone who doesn't believe in something. Did you know that a muslim is a kafir too in some sense? A muslim rejects belief in more than one God, he/she rejects idol worship, trinity etc. So they are also Kafirs in some sense. In fact the very verse quoted (60:4) uses the word kufr with respect to muslims! Now you surely wouldn't label muslims with prophet Abraham (pbuh) as infidels would you? Also in another sense kufr can also mean literally covering up something. So a person who plants a seed in the garden and then covers it up with soil is also committing kufr. Anything in the Qur'an has to be taken in its proper context. Do not apply 'cut & paste' technology to Qur'an or any other scripture for that matter, otherwise you can prove almost anything you want to. The main contexts in which Qur'an has to be considered are: a) Always read the full sentece, do not quote from the middle of a sentence. b) Read the whole set of ayats (verses) which would generally be dealing with a topic, in which the particular ayat, verse appears. c) Compare what you understand in this context with similar things in similar or different context described elsewhere in the Qur'an (scholars of exegesis are agreed on the matter that Qur'an explains itself). d) Consider the theme of the Qur'an as a whole that it presents to its reader and contrast it with what you understood from a particular ayat (verse) or a group of verses or chapter. Maybe it would be better to give examples in each category of context, but I will try and do it a bit later inshaAllah. Eqbal |
| 03/13/02 at 22:08:15 |
| momineqbal |
| Re: Wrong??? |
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| Mohja |
| 03/14/02 at 14:12:29 |
| [slm] Br. momineqbal, when was Dr. Jamal Badawi's lecture held? I attended one on 03/01/02 and he talked about the exact same things that you mentioned in your post. I thought it was an awesome lecture, mash'Allah! As the brother mentioned there's a big difference between the word infidel and kafir in arabic. The former implies that the person has no faith at all, where as the later means that he rejects a particular belief but may have other beliefs. IMHO, muslim should never use the word infidel because it's not the proper translation of the word that Allah[swt] uses in His Holy Book. We have to be careful of what we say because words have connotations and a whole set of notions that come with them. [wlm] |
| 03/14/02 at 14:13:02 |
| Mohja |
| Re: Wrong??? |
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| mujaahid |
| 03/14/02 at 15:48:34 |
| [slm] You cannot hate infidels simply because they dont choose islaam. If you got non-muslims amongst you then your supposed to protect them, not hate them. That dont mean you become best buddies, but it dont mean you kill each other. Look at the time of Salahuddin, he lived side by side with the non-muslims, peacefully, and it was a time of enlightenment for the whole world!! The trouble begins when a few GENUINE extemists start preaching hate to young kids who are easily influenced. Thier is no compulsion in religion. Never forget that. |
| To Brother Kashif |
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| Bro.__Y._Waahid |
| 03/14/02 at 16:42:40 |
| Bi-smi-llahi-r-Rahman ir-Rahim. Ashhadu al la ilaha illa-llah. Ashhadu anna Muhammadar Rasulu-llah. As-salamu `alaikum wa rahmatu-llahi wa barakatuh. "This is a quote taken from Ibrahim's speech to his people after they disobeyed his call to worship Allah..." This statement is according to what brother (non-rhetorical?) Those who are outside of the ranks are the disbelievers. "O ye who believe! Take not into your intimacy those outside your ranks: They will not fail to corrupt you. They only desire your ruin: Rank hatred has already appeared from their mouths: What their hearts conceal is far worse. We have made plain to you the Signs, if ye have wisdom. Ah! ye are those who love them, but they love you not,- though ye believe in the whole of the Book. When they meet you, they say, "We believe": But when they are alone, they bite off the very tips of their fingers at you in their rage. Say: 'Perish in you rage; Allah knoweth well all the secrets of the heart.' If aught that is good befalls you, it grieves them; but if some misfortune overtakes you, they rejoice at it. But if ye are constant and do right, not the least harm will their cunning do to you; for Allah Compasseth round about all that they do." (Âl-'Imrân:118-120; Yusuf Ali Translation) As-salamu `alaikum wa rahmatu-llahi wa barakatuh. |
| To Brother Mujaahid |
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| Bro.__Y._Waahid |
| 03/14/02 at 16:49:12 |
| Bi-smi-llahi-r-Rahman ir-Rahim. Ashhadu al la ilaha illa-llah. Ashhadu anna Muhammadar Rasulu-llah. As-salamu `alaikum wa rahmatu-llahi wa barakatuh. "You cannot hate infidels simply because they dont choose islaam..." Are you saying here that Surah 60:4 is a lie? If not, how is this statement reconciled to Surah 60:4? |
| Re: Wrong??? |
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| Bro.__Y._Waahid |
| 03/14/02 at 16:50:14 |
| In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful. Sorry others; no time to reply. |
| Re: Wrong??? |
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| mujaahid |
| 03/14/02 at 17:01:06 |
| [slm] Sura 60:4? I dont know the Sura, but i doubt it specifially tells you to hate them, it may say dislike, but hate? But then i'm not an arabic scholar or islaamic scholar so i can;t say for sure, but be careful of the translations. Islaam is not a religion of hate. Its a religion of peace, and submitting to the will of Allah, its a religion of fairness and justice. Everything islaam mentions is for the benefit of people. Hating others for no other reason apart from them not benig muslims is not for the benefit of no people, in fact it just casues a lot of problems. IF the christians, muslims and jews followed the revealed text properly, many of the problems we se today would not exist. |
| Re: Wrong??? |
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| ltcorpest2 |
| 03/14/02 at 20:01:38 |
| Bro waahid, that is an interesting question. Do you hate all infidels or non muslims? Doesn't that make life kinda miserable? It seems from your 1st post here that is your natural state of affairs. I obviously am no Islamic scholar, but the verses seem to be quoting Abraham. Is it him telling his people this or is it a commandment of God? and is there a difference? My version does say enmity and hatred, not dislike. mujaheed, not that that means anything. and mujaheed, I have had the Koran for 1 day and I already figured out what the surah is. |
| Re: To Brother Kashif |
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| Kashif |
| 03/14/02 at 20:13:58 |
| [quote author=Bro.__Y._Waahid link=board=ummah;num=1016062988;start=0#7 date=03/14/02 at 16:42:40]"This is a quote taken from Ibrahim's speech to his people after they disobeyed his call to worship Allah..." This statement is according to what brother (non-rhetorical?) Those who are outside of the ranks are the disbelievers.[/quote] assalaamu alaikum I would have assumed that you had read the verse yourself before making your post. It reads: [color=blue]"Indeed, there is for you a good example in Ibrahim and those with him when they said to their people: 'Surely we are clear of you and of what you worship besides Allah; we declare ourselves to be clear of you, and enmity and hatred have appeared between us and you forever until you believe in Allah alone' - but not in what Ibrahim said to his father: 'I would certainly ask forgiveness for you, and I do not control for you aught from Allah. Our Lord! on Thee do we rely, and to Thee do we turn, and to Thee is the eventual coming.'"[/color] Recall that Abraham's people were idol-worshippers and had such a deep-rooted hatred of the message of monotheism that they attempted to kill Allah's Messenger by throwing him into a fire. Thus, this verse is not a command to hate non-Muslims; it is an illustration of the fact that by virtue of a people's disbelief in Allah, and striving against Allah's religion, there is an open and clear barrier that has come between them and the Muslims. But, the notion that we are supposed to hate non-Muslims, in the literal sense of the word, sounds quite absurd to me. Is it not our duty to spread Allah's Message to all people? How can you spread the message or even hope to convert* a person who you hate? Trust me, if you're talking to a non-Muslim about Islam and he gets the slightest inkling that you have preconceived hatred of him, he'll be away from you like the wind. Its not correct, and the earliest Muslims were not like this. When the sahabah came behind Umar to accept the handing over of Jerusalem, the Christians of the city themselves remarked that these men surpassed in piety even the descriptions handed down of the disciples of Jesus, son of Mary. What does that tell you of the sahabas dealings with non-Muslims and the impact it had on their thoughts about Islam & Muslims; Its important to remember that as Muslims, it should be our nature to want good for all people, muslims and non-muslims alike. Chiefly, we want for all of humanity to accept Allah's guidance so that they can enjoy Allah's blessings in this life and moreso in the next. But aside from that, its not one of our characteristics to want to see a person beat up, or cheated, or slandered just because he is a non-Muslim. We have been commanded numerous times to deal with humanity with justice and fair-dealing, and there is no evidence anywhere to suggest that non-Muslims are exempt from such treatment. And I definitely agree with my brother Momineqbal in his posting about taking verse in context, and understanding them in light of other verses of the Qur'an because some parts of the Qur'an explain others. Kashif Wa Salaam PS The second verse you quote from 'Ali-Imran sounds like it is describing the munafiqeen and not the non-Muslim population as a whole. * Though it is Allah alone that Guides. |
| NS |
| 03/14/02 at 20:28:27 |
| Kashif |
| Re: Wrong??? |
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| Aabidah |
| 03/14/02 at 21:56:10 |
| [slm] I checked in "Holy Qur'an: Meanings & Commentary", it is from the original works of Yusuf Ali. Verse 4: [font=Verdana]There is for you an excellent example (to follow) in Abraham and those with him, when they said to their people: "We are clear of you and of whatever you worship besides Allah: we have rejected you, and there has arisen, between us and you, enmity and hatred for ever, unless you believe in Allah and Him alone"; but not when Abraham said to his father: "I will pray for your forgiveness for you, though I have no power (to get) anything on your behalf from Allah." (They prayed): "Our Lord! In You do we trust, and to You do we turn in repentance: to You is (our) final Return."[/font] This is what he said about Ayah 4 in Surat-ul Mumtahanah (60): Abraham was tender-hearted, and loyal to his father and his people. He warned them against idolatry and sin, and prayed for his father, but when his father and his people became open enemies of Allah, Abraham entirely dissociated himself from them, and left his home, his people, and his country. [i]Those with him[/i] were his believing wife and nephew Lut and any other Believers that went into exile with him. The enemies of Allah are enemies of hte righteous, and they hate the righteous. Therefore the righteous must cut themselves off eternally from them, unless they repent and come back to Allah. In that case they receive Allah's Mercy and are entitled to all the rights of love and brotherhood. [font=green]This shows that our detestation is for evil, not for men as such so long as there is a chance for repentance.[/font] But we must give no chance to evil for working. Evil on our Brotherhood at any time. (See also verse 7) Verse 7: [font=green]It may be that Allah will establish friendship between you and those whom you (now) hold as enemies. For Allah has power (over all things); and Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. [/font] For the explanation of verse 7, Yusuf Ali says this: Apparent religious hatred or enmity or persecution may be due to ignorance or over-zeal in a soul, which Allah will forgive and use eventually in His service, as happened in the case of Hadrat `Umar, who was a different man before and after his conversion. [font=green]As stated above, we should hate evil, but not men as such.[/font] So, we hate the evil, not the men b/c Shaitan causes the evil, the men are not the cause. InshaAllah this will help. [wlm] Betul |
| 03/14/02 at 21:59:00 |
| Aabidah |
| Re: To Brother Mujaahid |
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| bhaloo |
| 03/14/02 at 23:02:28 |
| [slm] [quote author=Bro.__Y._Waahid link=board=ummah;num=1016062988;start=0#8 date=03/14/02 at 16:49:12] "You cannot hate infidels simply because they dont choose islaam..." [/quote] Within the same surah, verses 8 and 9 say: Yusuf Ali translation: Quran 60:8-9 8 Allah forbids you not with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just. 9 Allah only forbids you with regard to those who fight you for (your) Faith and drive you out of your homes and support (others) in driving you out from turning to them (for friendship and protection). It is such as turn to them (in these circumstances) that do wrong. |
| Re: Wrong??? |
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| momineqbal |
| 03/15/02 at 00:23:13 |
| [slm], Yes I think we attended the same lecture, the one for Hawthorne Al-huda Islamic school? There was also a session with youth he had the next day in Hawthorne Masjid. It was excellent also masha'Allah. As regards to the quotation that brother bhaloo gave (60:8-9). I learned from attending that lecture that the word used is "Birr" when Allah describes our dealing with peaceful non-muslims. I was quite surprised to know that! It is the same word Allah uses when He advises us on how to deal with our parents! So even though the translation says "dealing with kindness and justice", it really means according a high amount of respect to other human beings something more than "kindness and justice" would imply. Another point I forgot to mention in my previous post was about mistranslations. So yeah, beware of mistranslations! Eqbal Eqbal |
| Re: Wrong??? |
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| humble_muslim |
| 03/15/02 at 10:19:49 |
| [slm] Ayat 1 O you who believe! Take not My enemies and your enemies as friends, showing affection towards them, while they have disbelieved in what has come to you of the truth , and have driven out the Messenger and yourselves because you believe in Allâh your Lord! If you have come forth to strive in My Cause and to seek My Good Pleasure. You show friendship to them in secret, while I am All-Aware of what you conceal and what you reveal. And whosoever of you (Muslims) does that, then indeed he has gone (far) astray, (away) from the Straight Path[] . ... Ayat 4 Indeed there has been an excellent example for you in Ibrâhim (Abraham) and those with him, when they said to their people: "Verily, we are free from you and whatever you worship besides Allâh, we have rejected you, and there has started between us and you, hostility and hatred for ever, until you believe in Allâh Alone," except the saying of Ibrâhim (Abraham) to his father: "Verily, I will ask for forgiveness (from Allâh) for you, but I have no power to do anything for you before Allâh[] ." Our Lord! In You (Alone) we put our trust, and to You (Alone) we turn in repentance, and to You (Alone) is (our) final Return" First of all, the purpose of this board is to give Dawah to non muslims, not take verses out of context to try to create animosity between muslims and non muslims. Neither muslims nor non muslims should behave like this. Here is the tafsir of these ayats. There was a copmanion, whose name I belive was Hatib, who had migrated to Madinah but left his wife and family in Makkah. He tried to sneak a letter to the Quraish in Makkah, who at that time were are war with the muslims. In this letter, he was asking for their help in looking after his family in Makkah. Ayat 1 rebukes him for putting his trust in those people who had shown open emity and hostility to the muslims, to the extent of driving them out of Makkah. Ayat 4 explains that he should have handled himself the way Abrham (peace be upon him) did do in the same situation, in that Abraham understood that his people would always be hostile to him (Abraham) until they accepted the faith. Remember that Abraham, too, was expelled from his land by the polytheists. Now I consider myself to be a "fundamentalist" muslim. I try to follow the Quran to the word. So how do I deal with non-muslims ? The answer is in the same Chbapter, in Ayat 8 : Allâh does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion and did not drive you out of your homes. Verily, Allâh loves those who deal with equity. So I hope this sets the record straight. Bro Waahid, please do not start interpreting the Quran ayat-by-ayat without looking at the whole context, this is a very dangerous thing to do. |
| NS |
| Re: Wrong??? |
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| Caraj |
| 03/15/02 at 10:46:46 |
| I am responding to this from the heart as a non-Muslim and as one who is not educated in the Quran. If I am loving and kind and helpful to Muslims, even though I am not a Muslim, and I was treated badly by them and I was shown a Quran verse and had true knowledge they were commanded to be mean or cruel to me just because I was not a Muslim???????????? Then I can truly say IF that were the case then Isalm is not for me. And this be the case with any other religion or belief or way of life. If I am able I would help, feed, assist any persons in need if I can regardless of their religion. My only condition on myself would be to do so to folks who are not using my help to harm others. |
| Re: Wrong??? |
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| jannah |
| 03/15/02 at 10:55:38 |
| [slm] I think everyone has cleared up the misconception the original poster asked about. The verse obviously does not mean "to hate infidels". I think this illustrates the discussion we were having about Quran translations. First we learned: 1. Never take a Quranic verse out of context. Anyone who is doing analytical studies on a text knows better. What comes before this verse? What comes after? What is it refering to? When was it revealed? Why? 2. Always read the commentary. Aabidah posted commentary from that same Yusuf Ali translation Quran. A lot of times it helps to clear up any problems right off the bat. 3. The Quran itself has rules of interpretation. No one verse can be taken alone. All of it comes together. All of it is interpreted alongside every other verse AND alongside the Sunnah. Now I don't know about you all, but I don't know every verse by heart, but there are many scholars that do. That's why we read their commentaries and explanations and ask them our questions. A verse may "appear" to say something, but it is the prophet [saw] who explained it in actions. God could certainly have just sent down the Quran and left us to it, but He sent a messenger, so we could see Islam practiced in real life by a real person. So we can't just take one without the others. |
| Re: Wrong??? |
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| momineqbal |
| 03/16/02 at 18:25:50 |
| [slm], The lecture on muslim, non-muslim relations by Dr. Jamal Badawi is on www.islamicity.com main page. Eqbal |
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