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A new Usama Bin Laden description
stap
03/18/02 at 23:00:03
"a simple person, very merciful, a very soft heart" Very interesting... :) CNN as usual tries to counter it every other sentence... ___ JEDDA, Saudi Arabia (CNN) -- A half brother of Osama bin Laden says the terrorist's family has its own information that bin Laden is alive and that he does not have kidney disease requiring dialysis. In an interview with CNN correspondent Rula Amin, Sheikh Ahmad -- who did not want his last name revealed -- also said he does not believe that bin Laden, part of a large and wealthy Saudi family, could be behind the September 11 attacks against the United States. "He is my brother. I know him. I lived with him for years. I know how much he fears God," Sheikh Ahmad said. He and Osama have the same mother but different fathers. Sheikh Ahmad said his mother received a call three weeks ago saying Osama was fine. He did not say who made the phone call. "He said they believed the phone call was credible, that Osama is alive," said CNN's Amin. The half brother knows bin Laden better than much of the rest of the family, which officially denounced Osama in the mid-1990s after he condemned the Saudi royal family for allying itself with the United States against Iraq during the Persian Gulf War. Sheikh Ahmad said he visited bin Laden a few times when bin Laden lived in Sudan and he saw him in Afghanistan last year. Sheikh Ahmad said he was "very worried" when the United States declared him a wanted man, but his concerns have eased. "It's easier now. We got used to it. We know any minute it's possible that we will hear some bad news," he said. Sheikh Ahmad spoke Arabic and his comments are based on English transcript of the 15-minute interview. It was taped this past Tuesday in a friend's house in Jedda, Saudi Arabia, where he lives Sheikh Ahmad is a 36-year-old married businessman who runs an advertising production company that's part of the vast and profitable bin Laden family business empire. The family business started in construction, expanding mosques in Mecca and Medina and building roads and palaces for the Saudi royal family. Sheikh Ahmad spoke fondly of his older brother, describing him as a simple, deeply religious man with "a very soft heart" who "hates injustice." Such words stand in stark contrast to how President Bush and other world leaders have described bin Laden, branding him the mastermind behind the September attacks. An estimated 3,063 people were killed when four hijacked U.S. commercial jets crashed into New York's World Trade Center, the Pentagon in Virginia and a field in Pennsylvania. "There's overwhelming evidence bin Laden was behind the attacks of September 11," said Peter Bergen, who has written a book about bin Laden. "If the family chooses not to believe that, that's just how families operate." Sheikh Ahmad described the September attacks as "terrible." "Any Muslim wouldn't accept this," he said, adding there was "no way" his brother could be involved in the hijackings. When the attacks came, it was a disaster for the bin Ladens. Two dozen of them were living in the United States, according to a family spokesman. For their own safety, the Saudi government quickly arranged for a charter jet that spirited them out of the country from Boston's Logan Airport. Since then, the bin Laden family has agonized over whether to publicly denounce Osama's activities. Sheikh Ahmad said he and his mother last saw bin Laden at the January 2001 wedding of one of Osama's sons in Afghanistan. It was at that wedding that Sheikh Ahmad said his infamous brother told him that stories he required kidney dialysis were not true. "He loved his family and friends, gatherings. He especially adores his mother. First comes God, then his mother," Sheikh Ahmad said. Sheikh Ahmad was hesitant at first about doing the interview but agreed, believing he knew a side of Osama that he wanted to share with others. "We grew up together in the same house," he said. "Osama is known for being a simple person, very merciful, a very soft heart. It's impossible that anyone would sit with him and not like him or get bored. Frankly, Osama is very close to the heart and very popular." Asked whether he believed his brother would be captured, Sheikh Ahmad replied, "I can't tell. As his brothers, we wish him safety." Their mother, he said, was "worried most" about bin Laden. "She is an expert now, more than any media person. She watched all the news on all the different TV channels. We get her all the newspapers, the interviews, and she is always discussing it." Whatever his brother's fate, Sheikh Ahmad said he would like to portray his brother should Hollywood ever make a movie about him. Throughout the interview, Sheikh Ahmad spoke repeatedly of his bin Laden's religious devotion. "No joking about this, when we were very young, he would wake me up and my sister. We were lazy, we were young, but we had to get up; he was our older brother. He would say, 'Ahmad, get up, get up,' and we would. We would pray with him and then just go to school, without going back to sleep." Sheikh Ahmad recalled going to the movies with bin Laden, seeing cowboy and karate movies, a youthful practice that stopped when bin Laden turned 14 and turned even deeper to religion. He said he was not surprised his brother turned so deeply to religion. "He is very stubborn," Sheikh Ahmad said. "When he puts his mind into something, he will do it."

A new Usama Bin Laden description
mujaahid
03/19/02 at 02:47:35
[slm] This interview shows a side to bin laadin that the Muslims already knew, from seeing his Appearance on TV, and the interviews he has given. Maybe now those westerners who hate him will see why the muslims and the islaamic world loves and supports Osama Bin Laadin  ;-)

Re: A new Usama Bin Laden description
humble_muslim
03/20/02 at 15:09:33
[slm] I, for one, cannot suuport and love a man who has made OPEN statements which do nothing more than tell lies about Islam.
NS

Re: A new Usama Bin Laden description
ltcorpest2
03/21/02 at 19:52:44
well, mujaahid,  i really doubt because he is a nice guy to his family and is religious that any westerner will see why muslims like him.  Ted Bundy was a real nice guy too with a great personality and good looks,  Adolph Hitler did not believe in killing animals, but I dont like any of them either.  In the article it states that the Bin Laden family is agonizing over whether to denouce his activities,  they wouldnt have to denounce him for anything if he was innocent of anything bad would they?  Any family member would not want to think that a fellow family member is cabpable of doing evil deeds. But, if they are agonizing it must be for something?

Re: A new Usama Bin Laden description
mujaahid
03/22/02 at 11:23:57
[slm] Humble Muslim, Osama Bin laadin is not perfect, he says things which are not correct, which are wrong, but everyone has faults. He has seen first had what we probably cannot even imagine, he has seen the suffering of the muslims more than anyone. He has angre in him, and agre often makes people say stupid things. Mike, I love Osama Bin Laadin, i love him because he is a muslim prepared to stand up and hit back, he is a muslim who has inspired hundreds of thousands of muslims across the world to seek military training to take on those forces of oppression. He has support from tens of millions of muslims across the world. You may love Bush, but few outside America have respect for him. Bush is an evil, vile man, who thrives on murdering and butchering the poeple of defenceless nations. He only bombs and attacks those nations who are unable to fight back. But in Afghanistan he has made a grave mistake. Because the Mujaahideen know how to handle overwhelming enemy forces, who are far superior. And like it or not, the US terrorist army is taking a serious beatings at the hands of our muslim heroes.

Re: A new Usama Bin Laden description
jannah
03/22/02 at 11:32:02
[quote]they wouldnt have to denounce him for anything if he was innocent of anything bad would they?  Any family member would not want to think that a fellow family member is cabpable of doing evil deeds. But, if they are agonizing it must be for something? [/quote] I'm not so sure about that. The BinLaden family is the richest family in the world. They have properties and businesses all over---millions if not reaching 1 billion. No doubt they are, for one, terrified their assets will be frozen and have all their businesses tainted with that "terrorist link" brush that everyone seems to be throwing around.   So maybe you believe your son/brother etc whatever is innocent, with everything being circumstantial evidence. But you have gov't pressure and US bombing pressure and pressure of losing everything you've worked for, your standing...and all you have to say is "yeah he's a terrorist"....i think every normal human should be a little agonized over that decision eh?

Re: A new Usama Bin Laden description
iimaan
03/25/02 at 14:01:15
[quote author=mujaahid link=board=ummah;num=1016510403;start=0#1 date=03/19/02 at 02:47:35]....I love Osama Bin Laadin.... from seeing his Appearance on TV and the interviews he has given. [/quote] Bismillahirahmanirrahiem [slm]  ;-), I agree, it's impossible to not love that man. haven't y'all noticed the Noor that's radiating from he's face :o ? The way he talks, the way he smiles, etc., etc. And I don't think that it's our duty to be judging, no offense, but  I think some people got a bit brainwashed. Salaam,  :-*

Re: A new Usama Bin Laden description
humble_muslim
03/25/02 at 16:05:28
[slm] First of all, I am NOT brainwashed. And I am not judging, I am just repsonding to Mujahhid's statement that "the Islamic world loves and supports UBL". Here is my point.  The US media love potraying sterotypes about muslims being terrorists, etc.  We get - quite rightly - upset about this trash.  But UBL then says the very same things we muslims in the USA are trying to defend Islam from.  Don't you think this leaves us feeling just a little frustrated ? If we're looking for heores and role models, try someone like Salhuddin Al Ayubi. Kashif once posted a wonderful post about him. As for his piety : let us remember that the Khawarij were the MOST pious muslims of their time, yet their extremism led to their downfall.  And let us remember that the Prophet SAW said "Help your brother whether he in an opressor or an opressed.  If he is an oppressor, stop him from opressing".  And look at the number of times the Quran talks about being just - EVEN WHEN YOU YOURSELF HAVE BEEN DEALT UNJUSTLY WITH.
03/25/02 at 16:08:37
jannah

Re: A new Usama Bin Laden description
struggling
03/25/02 at 17:06:11
[slm] I don't know whether one has to be pious and great enough for us to like him or not. Whatever he is, Allah knows better but I know one thing for sure that he is definitely going to be regarded as one of the very controversial personalities of 20-21st centuries. I don't think that he has done what they blame him to have done, probably his only sin is that he talks a lot about bringing down imperialism, capitalism, US hegemony and getting the crusade armies out of the sacred lands probably in very blunt words. As far as the media coverage is concerned, I am sick of that. Humble Muslim, do you sincerely believe that Salahuddin Ayubi is a person that is liked by these media Gurus, the same guy who always kindles the agonies of the Crusades in their very souls? I think not. UBL is probably not even close to it. Only today there is news about the implementation of Shariah Law in parts of Nigeria and nobody knows the true story behind what or who is really at fault (I know one thing that at least Shariah is not!!!) , yet we know one thing that western media is really happy that it has again found a fault with the Islamic Law in the inhumane treatment of women and now they are going to discuss this issue in all the fora they have got until they find another issue. Wassalam

Re: A new Usama Bin Laden description
ltcorpest2
03/25/02 at 20:00:59
Struggling, i doubt that most americans know who saladin is.  I am sure it is the same saladin who I was taught about in HS  ( a catholic hs)  (also since I loved and still do love history i paid attention, but wasnt stupid enough to make it my major in college).  I was told he was a just man and a great warrior.  I was also told about what the church and kingdoms that originated the crusade and that many of their actions were wrong.  We really dont learn too much history from our media, in that media is giving news, not history.  Western media loves to find fault wit hanything that is sensational, not just Islamic  items.  Imman,  i read your post about noor radiating etc.  I wont bring too much biblical scripturee, but havent you ever heard of a wolf in sheeps clothing?  and Mujaahid,  I really don't like bush all that much.  My heroes tend to be the people who feed the poor, and help the sick and take care of their families,  i just think that type of stuff is a better example and motivates me in a better spirit than the ones who get me all fired up for violence.  Not that I don't like a good fight now and again. Jannah, If obl's family is so shallow, I feel kind of sorry for  him.  If on the one hand he is such a great human being from the article, but then his family feels they need to agonize over publicly denouncing his actions for (nothing?). but all in all,  Osama does have a great demeanor and style,  I just wish he didnt want me and my country dead.  Mujaheed,  you need to come to the US for a visit to see what the people are all about.

Re: A new Usama Bin Laden description
Abd_al-Rashid
03/26/02 at 02:00:46
[slm] [quote]But UBL then says the very same things we muslims in the USA are trying to defend Islam from.[/quote] What kind of things are you talking about? UBL's arguments can be summarized in these 3 main points: 1- US and their allied armed forces must immediately leave the Arabian peninsula, their presence there violates a clear command of the Prophet [saw] "Expel the polytheists from Arabia" 2- US must stop its annual delivery of billions of dollars in aid and weapons to the Zionists. 3- Sanctions on Iraq must end. Is asking for these things wrong?  Furthermore, Allah says in the Qur'an "Opression is worse than slaughter"  UBL has taken a  firm stand against the traitor rulers and the source of their power (USA) and many Muslims love him for it.  OK, so his methods are far from ideal, but what do you call American methods in Afghanistan and Iraq, or Zionist methods in Palestine?  The only part I that I can think of right now where I disagree with UBL is his issuing of fatwas when he has no authority to do so, but it's more than I can say for the rulers of saudi america and ameristan. [wlm]

Re: A new Usama Bin Laden description
mujaahid
03/26/02 at 04:50:50
I agree with Musulman. All Osama Bin Laadin is asking is for the sanctions to go, Support of israel terrorism ended, and the US forces leaving the Gulf regions. I for one, and it seems much, most, if not all the arab and islaamic world will support him on that. Yes he is not going about it the right way, but the climate we live in, someone has to act, because if we musts dont do something about it, the oppression we live under will continue.

Re: A new Usama Bin Laden description
iimaan
03/26/02 at 06:19:23
[quote author=ltcorpest2 link=board=ummah;num=1016510403;start=0#9 date=03/25/02 at 20:00:59]Struggling,Imman,  i read your post about noor radiating etc.  I wont bring too much biblical scripturee, but havent you ever heard of a wolf in sheeps clothing?[/quote] Bismillahirahmanirrahiem Alaikum Itcorpest2, About the wolf in sheeps clothing, I know it may sound strange to you, but in my heart I can't imagine he's behind the attacks and that's based on the way he looks and absolutely on the way he talks. There's a thread here in Madina about Firasah, maybe that would make things clear for you about the 'Noor' thing. (Station of Firasah/Al Taqwa Masjid & Library) And about  ;-) Bin Laden wanting you and your country dead, when did he say that? I mean if that's true your not the only one who would be affected by this, so don't take it all to seriously. Amerika is well-armed I assume. But I try not to get to much into politics,'cause then I feel like a victim and will start making excuses why I can't make a difference in the world today. So my only intention was to point out what I think about Bin Laden based on my perceptions. Wa alaikum,  :-*.

Re: A new Usama Bin Laden description
struggling
03/26/02 at 13:40:44
dear ltcorpsest2 :-). I just have one comment that I hope more Americans like u start to get their history lessons from history classes (unbiased I hope) but I guess that you are in a minority, isnt it... only a few days ago i read that the ppl who like what bush stands for and what he is doing is more than a staggering 80% (down from 90%). Probably they are the ones who take their lessons from media... ;-) anyways.... Also unlike you, your fellow americans have also banned many Muslim charities that used to be "the people who feed the poor, and help the sick and take care of their families" only in the name of UBL. Probably they don't like to do that... :-) they just want to create such ppl. wassalam

Re: A new Usama Bin Laden description
se7en
03/27/02 at 08:53:02
as salaamu alaykum, Even if Usama bin Laadin's goals are noble, does this somehow justify his methodology, which is *far* from being Islamically sound?  Is Usama bin Laadin somehow granted exemption from the verse in the Qur'an that says that we should not let the hatred of others towards us make us *swerve* and *depart* from justice?   I really am having a hard time understanding our psychology as a people.  We find it so easy to criticize scholars when we disagree with them on fiqhi issues, organizations when their approach does not coincide with our own, but when it comes to clear cases of RIGHT and WRONG in the sight of Allah -  a person who calls to combative jihad when they have *no right* to do so - we hesitate to criticize.  We look the other way.  We say we love him as our brother, and mention his terrible mistakes as if they were foibles. No wonder we explain and explain and non-Muslims just shake their heads in confusion.   Usama bin Laadin is by no means the arch villain he's been made out to be in mainstream western media today.  But nor is he the faultless hero many Muslims make him out to be.  The ends *do not* justify the means in Islam - and though his goals may be noble he will be called to account for his deeds. wAllahu a'lam. wasalaamu alaykum wa rahmatAllah.
03/27/02 at 09:04:46
se7en

Re: A new Usama Bin Laden description
mujaahid
03/27/02 at 09:55:58
Seven "a person who calls to combative jihad when they have *no right* to do so" He had EVERY right to call for a combative Jihad. Thousands of afghans have been murdered by the US terrorist Crusaders in Afghnaistan in the past few months. What do you suggest we do? Sign a petition saying we are agianst the war? Well? Do that, fine, just dont critisize those who have the courage to leave behind thier cosy lives to go and help defend thier muslim brothers and sisters from a murderous barbaric enemy. Bin Laadin IS a hero, like it or not. He is one man prepared to say it how it is and prepared to take on the greatest enemy of islaam. Why the mods on this board are so anti-Jihad, i dont know, but when your getting blown to bits, i'm sure you will not have the same anti-Jihad opinions. Lay off the Jihadi's, they are giving thier lives up to defend our people, while we sit behind computer screens reading about their efforts.

Re: A new Usama Bin Laden description
se7en
03/27/02 at 10:49:54
as salaamu alaykum, [quote]He is one man prepared to say it how it is and prepared to take on the greatest enemy of islaam.[/quote] Again, my question is: does this legitimate a method that is incorrect?   It seems there's this knee-jerk reaction going on here.. that as soon as someone criticizes Usama bin Laadin, they *must* then be anti-jihad.  And that is not true.   Be careful, son.  Don't make assumptions.
03/27/02 at 10:57:06
se7en

Re: A new Usama Bin Laden description
M.F.
03/27/02 at 11:45:37
Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullah My thoughts on this is in reality, none of us have enough information to judge Bin Laden.  We've been shown both good things and bad about him (videos where he's a pious and humble man, and others where he's talking about how he wasn't expecting the towers to fall....)  We don't know how much of these videos are true and how much is fake (most people I know immediately concluded that the second one is fake whereas in reality we don't know). I say, we can be supportive of jihad against oppression done within the boundaries of Islam without giving it anyone's name.  Whose niya is for Allah alone, we'll find out on yawm al qiyama (that's the day of judgment for you FBI people reading this, not a date of a future attack or whatever). So, I say now don't judge the man since we don't know much about him.  Judge the actions without ascribing them to any one person or group.  The intention is not for us to know.

Re: A naw Usama Bin Laden description
mujaahid
03/27/02 at 13:16:27
[slm] <<Whose niya is for Allah alone, we'll find out on yawm al qiyama (that's the day of judgment for you FBI people reading this, not a date of a future attack or whatever). >> RESPECT to the sista!  :D  :D :D You tell 'em!!

Re: A new Usama Bin Laden description
Caraj
03/27/02 at 13:25:17
ok question here, The word .....  Jihad  ?????  Does it not mean ..... Struggle Many seem to use is (interpt it) as meaning war, yet others say in Arabic it means struggle Which one is it and where can I actually read about it in the Quran? Another question,  I hear how the Prophet prayed for those who mistreated him, where is that in the Quran? Thank You Cara

Re: A new Usama Bin Laden description
mujaahid
03/27/02 at 13:41:14
[slm] Cara Jihad means struggle, both agianst ourselves, and against Enemies in war. But it is focused a LOT on the aspect of war, defence.

Re: A new Usama Bin Laden description
bhaloo
03/27/02 at 13:47:45
[slm] I thought this was a good explanation on the kinds of jihad and the ruling on jihad from Sheikh Munajjid. Firstly: Jihaad is of various kinds, some of which are obligatory upon everyone who is accountable, and some are obligatory upon the community as a whole – if some people undertake them then the rest are relieved of the obligation. And some kinds of jihad are mustahabb. Jihad al-nafs (jihad against one’s self) and jihad al-Shaytaan (jihad against the Shaytaan) are obligatory upon everyone who is accountable. Jihad against the munaafiqeen (hypocrites), kaafirs (disbelievers) and leaders of oppression and innovation is obligatory upon the community as a whole. Physical jihad (i.e. fighting) against the kaafirs may become an individual obligation upon everyone who is able to do it in certain circumstances, which will be described below. Ibn al-Qayyim (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: Once this is understood, then jihad is of four kinds: Jihad al-nafs (jihad against one’s self), jihad al-Shaytaan (jihad against the Shaytaan), jihad against the kaafirs and jihad against the hypocrites. Jihad al-nafs (jihad against one’s self) is of four kinds: 1 – Striving to learn the teachings of Islam without which one cannot attain success and happiness in this world or in the Hereafter; if this is missing then one is doomed to misery in this world and in the Hereafter. 2 – Striving to make oneself act in accordance with what one has learned. Simply knowing without acting, even though it may not cause any harm, is not going to bring any benefit. 3 – Striving to call others to Islam, teaching those who do not know about it. Otherwise one will be one of those who conceal that which Allaah has revealed of guidance and teaching, and it will not benefit him or save him from the punishment of Allaah. 4 – Striving to bear patiently the difficulties involved in calling people to Allaah and the insults of people; bearing all that for the sake of Allaah. If a person achieves all these four levels, then he will be one of the rabbaaniyyeen (learned men of religion who practise what they know and also preach to others. Cf. Aal ‘Imraan 3:79). The salaf were agreed that the scholar does not deserve to be called a rabbaani unless he knows the truth, acts in accordance with it and teaches it to others. Whoever teaches, acts in accordance with his knowledge and has knowledge, he will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Jihad against the Shaytaan is of two types: 1 – Warding off the doubts that he stirs up to undermine faith. 2 – Striving against him to ward off the corrupt desires that he provokes. The first jihad is followed by certainty of faith, and the second is followed by patience. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “And We made from among them (Children of Israel), leaders, giving guidance under Our Command, when they were patient and used to believe with certainty in Our Ayaat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.)” [al-Sajdah 32:24] Allaah tells us that leadership in religion is attained through patience and certainty of faith. Patience wards off desires and certainty wards off doubts. Jihad against the kaafirs and hypocrites is of four kinds: with the heart, the tongue, one’s wealth and oneself. Jihad against the kaafirs is more along the lines of physical fighting whereas jihad against the hypocrites is more along the lines of using words and ideas. Jihad against the leaders of oppression and innovation is of three kinds: 1 – Jihad with one's hand (i.e., physical jihad, fighting) if one is able. If that is not possible then it should be with one's tongue (i.e., by speaking out). If that is not possible then it should be with one's heart (i.e., by hating the evil and feeling that it is wrong). These are the thirteen types of jihad, and “Whoever dies without having fought or having resolved to fight has died following one of the branches of hypocrisy.” (Narrated by Muslim, 1910). Zaad al-Ma’aad, 3/9-11) Shaykh ‘Abd al-‘Azeez ibn Baaz (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: “Jihad is of various kinds, with one’s self, one's wealth, by making du’aa’, by teaching and guiding, by helping to do good in any way. The greatest form of jihad is jihad with one’s self (i.e., going oneself and fighting), followed by jihad with one's wealth, jihad by speaking out and guiding others. Da’wah is also part of jihad.  But going out oneself to fight in jihad is the highest form. (Fataawa al-Shaykh Ibn Baaz, 7/334, 335) Secondly: The idea of waging physical jihad against the kaafirs went through a number of stages, depending on the state in which the Muslim ummah was. Ibn al-Qayyim (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: “The first thing which his Lord revealed to him was to read in the name of his Lord who had created. That was the beginning of his Prophethood, where Allaah commanded him to recite to himself but He did not yet command him to convey that. Then He revealed the words (interpretation of the meaning: ‘O you (Muhammad) enveloped in garments! Arise and warn!’ [al-Muddaththir 74:1-2] So he became a Prophet with the word ‘Iqra (Read!) and he became a Messenger with the words, ‘O you (Muhammad) enveloped in garments…’ Then Allaah commanded him to warn his closest kinsmen, then to warn his people, then to warn the Arabs around them, then to warn all the Arabs, then to warn all of mankind. He continued to call them for over ten years from the beginning of his Prophethood, without fighting or imposing the jizyah; he was commanded to refrain, to be patient and to be forbearing. Then permission was given to him to migrate, and permission was given to him to fight. Then he was commanded to fight those who fought him, and to refrain from fighting those who left him alone and did not fight him. Then Allaah commanded him to fight the mushrikeen so that the religion would all be for Allaah. After jihad was enjoined upon him, the kaafirs then fell into three categories: those with whom there was a truce or peace treaty; those with whom he was at war; and those who lived under the rule and protection of the Islamic state.” (Zaad al-Ma’aad, 3/159) Thirdly: The ruling on physical jihad against the kaafirs is that this is an obligation on the community as a whole (fard kafaayah). Ibn Qudaamah said: “Jihaad is an obligation upon the community; if some people undertake it, the rest are relieved of the obligation.” What fard kafaayah means is that if it is not undertaken by enough people, then all the people are guilty of sin, but if enough people undertakes it, the rest will be relieved of blame. Initially the command is addressed to all of them, as in the case of an individual obligation (fard ‘ayn), but then in the case of fard kafaayah the obligation is dropped if enough of the people undertake to do it, unlike the case with fard ‘ayn where the obligation is not dropped if someone else does it. Jihad is a fard kafaayah, according to the majority of scholars.” (al-Mughni, 9/163) Shaykh ‘Abd al-‘Azeez ibn Baaz said:   “We have previously explained on more than one occasion that jihad is fard kafaayah, not fard ‘ayn. All Muslims are enjoined to support their brothers with their selves (i.e., physically, by joining them), or with money, weapons, da’wah and advice. If enough of them go out (to fight), the rest are freed from sin, but if none of them do that then all of them are sinners. The Muslims in Saudi Arabia, Africa, North Africa and elsewhere are obliged to do their utmost, and if there is a jihad in one country, the surrounding countries should hasten to help them, the closest then the next closest.  If one or two states, or three or more, manage to fulfil the obligation, then the rest are freed of responsibility. They deserve to be supported, and it is obligatory to help them against their enemies, because they are oppressed. Allaah has enjoined jihad upon all Muslims, and they must fight against the enemies of Allaah until their brothers are victorious. If they fail to do that then they are sinners, but if sufficient people undertake to do that, then the rest are absolved of sin.” (Fataawa al-Shaykh Ibn Baaz, 7/335) Fourthly: Physical jihad against the kaafirs becomes obligatory in four cases, which are: 1 – When the Muslim is present in a jihad situation. 2 – When the enemy has come and attacked a Muslim land 3 – When the ruler mobilizes the people, they must respond. 4 – When a person is needed and no one else can do the task except him. Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen said: Jihad is obligatory and becomes fard ‘ayn if a person is present where fighting is going on. This is the first of the situations in which jihad becomes an individual obligation, because Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “O you who believe! When you meet those who disbelieve, in a battlefield, never turn your backs to them. And whoever turns his back to them on such a day — unless it be a stratagem of war, or to retreat to a troop (of his own), — he indeed has drawn upon himself wrath from Allaah. And his abode is Hell, and worst indeed is that destination!” [al-Anfaal 8:16] The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said that running away on the day when the army is advancing is one of the sins that doom a person to Hell. He said: “Avoid the seven sins that doom a person to Hell…” among which he mentioned running away on the day when the army is advancing (agreed upon). But Allaah has made exceptions in two cases: 1-     When it is a military manoeuvre, in the sense that he is leaving to bring reinforcements. 2-     When he is going to join another group, when he has been told that there is a group of Muslims elsewhere who are about to be defeated, so he goes to join them in order to strengthen their numbers. This is subject to the condition that there is no risk to the group he is in; if there is a risk to the group that he is in, then it is not permissible for him to go to the other group. In this case (jihad) is an individual obligation upon him (fard ‘ayn) and it is not permissible for him to leave.   The second situation (in which jihad becomes an individual obligation) is when a city is besieged by the enemy. Then he has to fight in defence of the city, because when the city is besieged there is no alternative but to defend it, for if the enemy is going to prevent people from leaving the city or entering it, and prevent provisions from reaching it, and other things which are well known, then in this case the people of the city are obliged to fight in order to defend their city. The third situation is when the leader tells the people to mobilize; the leader (imam) is the highest authority in the state, but he need not necessarily be the leader of all the Muslims, because there has been no leader of all the Muslims (khaleefah) for a long time. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Listen and obey, even if you are ruled by an Abyssinian slave.” So if a man becomes a leader, then his word is to be heeded and his commands are to obeyed. (al-Sharh al-Mumti’, 8/10-12).

Re: A new Usama Bin Laden description
Sparrow
03/27/02 at 14:59:16
Mujaahid, you said this is a previous post: "Yes he is not going about it the right way, but the climate we live in, someone has to act, because if we musts dont do something about it, the oppression we live under will continue." So here's my question, in four parts: 1) what oppression are you talking about? I thought you lived in the UK. 2) how can Bin Laden's actions be acceptable to you when you say above that he is not going about it the right way, which I assume you mean the right way Islamically?  That says to me that it is okay to disregard God's laws when it suits our political beliefs, or when we don't like the way things are going either personally or politically.   3) I believe (and correct me if I'm wrong) that in previous posts you have said that you don't believe Bin Laden is guilty of  any violent acts. So what things is he "not going about the right way?"   4) Your comment that Bush is an "evil, vile man"  strikes me as histrionic and a little silly.  Certainly, I don't think the man is a saint, but tell me, if you were in his shoes - or the shoes of any leader whose country was attacked either by war or terrorism -  what would you do? I mean this question seriously.  The US *should* act with discretion because it does have so much power, but that does not mean it can sit back and let itself be a target. Power also does not mean that the people killed on 9/11 were any less innocent or defenseless or deserving of protection than the Afghan people or the Palestinians living under the boot of Israeli oppression. Seven's comment that it's no wonder non-Muslims shake their heads in confusion is an important one, IMHO.   The things I read about Islam (history, pactices, beliefs) lead me to it but the "kill kill kill" philosophy espoused by some (not just here, BTW) have me further and further away.   Please forgive me if any of my opinions have offended you. I'm simply trying to understand. Peace, Sparrow

Re: A new Usama Bin Laden description
Caraj
03/27/02 at 15:20:29
Well I don't know what to say at this point. I know what I feel. These feelings are from several different posts, but will put it all in this reply then I am done. Like someone else posted somewhere else, they invited I think Mujaahid to the US to see for himself. We all act like brothers and sisters on a board but Mujaahid talks about hoping others get nukes and I quote 'big nukes' He is told not to speak of the T-----word but does so and gets in every lick he can sneak. Folks hate the US but come here to own businesses and get an education, recieve medical, etc, But yet people think we are so bad and are terriable people, yet people want in  here so bad they even sneak in when they cannot get visa's All I can say is I am really fed up with the hole thing, like I said in another post, I don't like living in a country where they think they are the worlds policemen, yet I certainly don't want to live in a country where I would get beat or jailed cause I didn't cover myself completely. Some of you hope the US gets what you think it deserves, well let me ask you this................. many of you have gotten to know me, DO I SEEM like a person who would harm any of you????????? DO I SEEM like a person you would want killed???????????? Blown up???? And I said it before, IF people were getting killed in my name I would come forward, not coward behind a country and people. So what if he wanted the US out of Saudi?????? That is between Saudi and the US not Bin Laden. Why is it that he is a wanted man in his own country??? As for the media, I truly believe each media lies. Ones here in my country and ones in other countries. If most your subscribers are with a certain group you certainly aren't going to side with the ones they are against, you would lose people buying papers and losing money. Mujaahid and any other I have a question for you????? If I am not Muslim and I don't wear a total cover do you think I should be beaten?????? Jailed?????? killed??????? And from other post you started,  if I made mistakes, if I have a past and I was not a virgin getting married do I deserve to be unmarried????????   Not all of us have had the luxuary to have lived a blemish free life that we can demand perfection from another.   :o Well if any of you agree with any of that that, then you are judging me and you are not following the Quran that I believe says only Allah is to judge. I am so flustered I don't know what else to say, I have to many thoughts running through my head. All I have to say is this....... if jihad means war against me or the people in my country cause someone attacked my country and my country attacked someone over it, and after getting to know me you think I deserve to die (get nuked) cause I live in the US then PLEASE STOP ACTING LIKE MY FRIEND.   If you think I am unworthy of happiness cause I have a past...... PLEASE STOP ACTING LIKE MY FRIEND If you think cause I am not Muslim I am a lesser person or because I don't cover myself completely the way you think I should....... PLEASE STOP ACTING LIKE MY FRIEND In conclusion I cannot change this world over night. I can only change it one small piece at a time, by showing kindness, mercy and love. And asking those around me to do the same. If this post sounds a little confusing it is cause I have many thoughts about many posts.

Re: A new Usama Bin Laden description
Sparrow
03/27/02 at 15:26:10
Cara, you and I are in total agreement, only I sound like a robot in my post!   I admire your passion! peace, Sparrow

Re: A new Usama Bin Laden description
humble_muslim
03/27/02 at 15:34:49
AA OK, a few respones to the posts. If all UBL said was that muslims should stand up against opression, that is one thing.  But he is saying, without being misquoted, that he does not differntiate between combatants and civilians.  Now if an "anti muslim" writer like Steve Emerson says such things about Islam, we get upset.  But when UBL says it, some of us - and NOT me - see nothing wrong in it.  This does NOT make me anti-jihad, or brainwashed, so please don't label me as such. I hope that those of you on this board who continue to talk about death and detsruction read Sparrow's post about what is pushing her away from Islam.  Still, that's not the first time this has happened on this board. Cara, the whole world, its rights and wrongs, its politics and wars, is not a simple good vs bad or black vs white issue today.  You are trying to see things in a very simplistic way, when the truth is mostly hidden and to complex for most people to undertsand, especially when looked at thru the eyes of the US media.
NS

Re: A new Usama Bin Laden description
Caraj
03/27/02 at 15:50:43
Sometimes things are more simple than they seem. Complicating things only seems to hinder getting to the truth. If the Americans are so bad, why not also go after the Germans for what their government done.  And while we are at it how about the British for what they did in So. Africa and India, etc, etc. I would be willing to bet we can find fault in all cultures, religions and such. I chose not to and if that is looking at things simplistic, then I guess I am a simple woman. If love and kindness and mercy are simple....... well I chose simple Looking through the eyes of the US media????????? Brother I don't think so I don't believe the media no more than I believe anyone elses media. I learn by talking and developing friendships with other in other countries. Getting their insight and views and feelings. I have pc friends in Saudi, Pakistan, India, England, France, Canada, Austrailia, etc etc.
03/27/02 at 15:53:58
Caraj

Re: A new Usama Bin Laden description
ltcorpest2
03/27/02 at 18:09:54
I probably should respond in more detail, but im at work,   and unfortunatly so stinkin busy.  I really thank Caraj and se7en for their posts and hamayoun, hopefully we will get to talk again soon.  (and mujahiid, i always love your posts!!!).  Jannah,  i still cant find thespellcheck here.  But these posts have really been enlightening.

Re: A new Usama Bin Laden description
Sparrow
03/29/02 at 08:38:46
Good morning everyone, well I have to say I'm disappointed.  Mujaahid, I though for sure you would address my questions (as you have so many other comments before) and we could have an interesting discussion about the topic.  Now I'm left to wonder if your silence speaks volumes. Peace, Sparrow

Re: A new Usama Bin Laden description
mujaahid
03/29/02 at 11:33:34
[slm] Sparrow [quote] well I have to say I'm disappointed.  Mujaahid, I though for sure you would address my questions (as you have so many other comments before) and we could have an interesting discussion about the topic.  Now I'm left to wonder if your silence speaks volumes. [/quote] had the thought occured to you that maybe i may not have read your post? [quote] 1) what oppression are you talking about? I thought you lived in the UK. [/quote] Islaam is one family, and when you see muslims in other lands been massacred, murdered, raped, burnt alive, those who truly believe feel thier pain. It feels like our own brothers and sisters are going through it. Just let me mention some of the oppression. In Bosnia, hundreds of thousands of muslims were massacred, in Kosovo hundreds of thousands were massacred, in Palestine for the last 50 years, the muslims have been oppressed and brutalised, in Kashmir for 50 years, the muslims have lived under occuation and had hundreds of thousands of their people murdered, in Chechnya the muslims have been bombared by a military superpower, with thousands being murdered, in Rwanda 2 million muslims were massacred in weeks, in the Phillipines the muslims are being brutalised, in china thousands of muslims have been killed, in india recently, you saw muslim women being raped, gang raped and then burnt alive, simply for being muslims, in Iraq, US sanctions have caused the deaths of over a million Iraqi's, in Afghanistan recently, thousands have died from US bombs. Now you tell me, if this isnt oppression against Muslims and Islaam, then what is it? Why should we have to put up with it? Why should any muslim tolerate this kind of genocide against our people? Why SHOULD'NT we support those muslims who are prepared to do something, anything about it? [quote] 3) I believe (and correct me if I'm wrong) that in previous posts you have said that you don't believe Bin Laden is guilty of  any violent acts. So what things is he "not going about the right way?" [/quote] By saying things such as calling suicide bombers martyrs. They are not martyrs islaamically, maybe politically for thier own ends, but islaamically they are not martyrs for blowing themselves up. However i CAN understand why they would be prepared to go to such extremes, when you have nothing else left, you become desparate. Suicide bombings are the act of a desparate person. Osama Bin Laadin calling these people martyrs is making a mistake. Also calling for innocent Americans to be killed is wrong. We all know that its American policy to kill innocents, any sane person can see that, but that dont mean WE muslims should do likewise. [quote] 4) Your comment that Bush is an "evil, vile man"  strikes me as histrionic and a little silly. [/quote] He is an Embecile, a murderer, and plain evil. He even has the looks of an Evil man. Compare him to Bin Laadin, Bush has a little, whiny face, with small, sharp, beady evil eyes, while binlaadin is tall, dark, handsome, has big round eyes, has a beautiful warm smile. Compare the two. And see for yourself. Sparrow Bush has admitted he is prepared to obliterate any nations which pose a threat, any nation that does not kiss US butt, but is prepared to develop weapons to protect itself against US aggression has been given a clear message, that they will be obliterated if they use those weapons to defend themselves if the US decides to invade. [quote] Certainly, I don't think the man is a saint, but tell me, if you were in his shoes - or the shoes of any leader whose country was attacked either by war or terrorism -  what would you do? [/quote] for a start, i would NOT EVER kill thousands of innocent people, i would not bomb villages to the ground, i would not be a coward and send bombs from thousands of feet in the air, i would not murder innocent people. secondly, if i was Bush, when the Taliban asked for evidence that bin laadin was involved, i would have shown it to them, because their was a chance (if any evidence existed), that bin laadin WOULD have been handed over, even to a neutral country. That should have meant they had thier hands on him. But when Bush clearly said he had no intention of talking, "hand him over or else", it showed the sane world that Bush was after war, and nothing else. He couldnt give a flying fiddle if he got bin laadin or not. [quote] I mean this question seriously.  The US *should* act with discretion because it does have so much power, but that does not mean it can sit back and let itself be a target. Power also does not mean that the people killed on 9/11 were any less innocent or defenseless or deserving of protection than the Afghan people or the Palestinians living under the boot of Israeli oppression. [/quote] well for a start they could have caught who done it, you know, like the one the "claimed" done it, they could have had him!! But the fact they openly blew any chances of it sent alarm bells ringiing, and many people realised the reason the US took that stance was because they dont have anything on Bin Laadin, apart from a bit of laughable evidence!! [quote] Seven's comment that it's no wonder non-Muslims shake their heads in confusion is an important one, IMHO.   The things I read about Islam (history, pactices, beliefs) lead me to it but the "kill kill kill" philosophy espoused by some (not just here, BTW) have me further and further away.   [/quote] What about the Kill kill kill policy/philosophy of the US in Vietnam, Korea, Cambodia, Iran, Lebanon, Sudan, Somalia, Iraq, Nagasaki, Hiroshma, Afghanisatn, to name but a few? Or has that passed you buy? If the blantant murder of millions by the US acceptable because their media can brainwash you into thinking the US can do no wrong, and everyone else just misunderstands you? What, do the Americans REALLY believe that people will not give them payback? Do you REALLY believe people will not come after you for revenge after all the death and destruction the US has caused all over the world? Sept 11 was bought upon the US by itself. If you hadnt ruined so many nations, killed so many innocent millions, ruined so many lives, people would never have hated you as much as they do, because they would never have HAD a reason to hate you so much.
03/29/02 at 11:35:36
mujaahid

Re: A new Usama Bin Laden description
mujaahid
03/29/02 at 11:45:01
<We all act like brothers and sisters on a board but Mujaahid talks about hoping others get nukes and I quote 'big nukes'> Cara i say that because everyone has a right to defend themselves, and if the US is making threats to destroy nations, why SHOULDNT these nations have the right to defend themselves? <But yet people think we are so bad and are terriable people, yet people want in  here so bad they even sneak in when they cannot get visa's> CARA why dont you ever listen to this point i keep making? They only do this because they have nothing else, WHY? Because of the behaviour of the US in thier home lands!! Sanctions, boycottss etc plunged their home countries into poverty, these peopel than have nothing!! <And I said it before, IF people were getting killed in my name I would come forward, not coward behind a country and people. > People are being killed in your name, the afghans are being murdered in the name of ALL americans! Bush is proud to make that point often. <So what if he wanted the US out of Saudi That is between Saudi and the US not Bin Laden. > No, its between the Muslims and the US, ALL muslims. That is OUR holy lands, and the US have no right to be thier. Bin Laadin was prepared to get them out of their. <Why is it that he is a wanted man in his own country > Because he is prepared to stand up to, and speak against the oppression, and brutality of the regime he lived under, the Saudi royals. He was a threat to them being overthrown. <Mujaahid and any other I have a question for you?? If I am not Muslim and I don't wear a total cover do you think I should be beaten Jailed killed? > No, and i dont ever remeber any sane muslim, saying that!!

Re: A new Usama Bin Laden description
ltcorpest2
03/29/02 at 17:50:49
SINCE i AM SO LAME i CANT FIGURE OUT HOW TO QUOTE ANYONES POST i WILL ( also I will take the caps lock off now also).  respond to some of mujahiid post.  What the heck does round eyes and a beautiful smile have to do with anything?  and besides,  my wife thinks Bush is cute.  I vote libertarian, so I am neutral on how cute Bush is. Didn't the USA go into Kosovo to help the Muslims, or am i wrong on that point?  And in case you were not aware,  regarding Somalia,  the USA resisted for quite a while whether or not to go there, since we had no national interests.  There was a huge debate and many African Americans were upset that we were not going to help the Somalis, and the US was pressured to go in there. (That is the quicjk short version of events) Also,  you talked about the muslims around the world being killed and oppressed,  I was just wondering,  do you feel the same about people of other religions?  I pray every day for people in Afghanistan, They are not of my faith.  But they were created by God in his image.  Kinda goes for everyone he created. I won't respond to every action that you mentioned because we could have a 20 page debate on each issue that you raised.  But why doesn't Bin Laden try to overthrow th Saudi regime instead of ours,  If he put as much effort into doing that instead of waht he is doing , the USA would be gone from there , the house of saud would be gone and he could run his country the way he wants to to show the world that his way is the best.

Re: A new Usama Bin Laden description
humble_muslim
03/29/02 at 17:51:56
[slm] First of all, let's all calm down. I think people on all sides are getting confused about what this issue is about, and are making irrelavent and possibly unneeded statements. The way I see it, non muslims are tring to judge Islam soley on the actions of a few people (like UBL or the Taliban), without looking at either the context or the real meaning of Islam.   If you really want to judge Islam, let me give my own example based on Cara's question about covering/not covering.  Now I consider myself a "fundmanetalist", though I hate that word. So for many years I have been trying to get thru to my wife to encourage her to cover (not in the Taliban sense, but to go out with her hair covered).  If she does not, how do I feel ? Angry ? No. Vengeful ? No.  Very sad, because I would want her to obey God.  But also I would understand my own failure, that I did not instruct/educate her in the correct manner.  Now if that is the way a "fundmentalist" thinks, is that not light years from what the Taliban do ?  So why judge Islam by them rather than by me, or by the many other "fundamentalists" you meet in the west ? You cannot judge Islam per se by looking at what's going on in the world.  People are opressed thruout the world, both muslims and non muslims.  When people are opressed, they get desperate.  In that desperation, they will forget everything not of importance to them at the time.  An example : the recent killings of muslims in India at the hands of Hindus.  This was done by ignorant people being controlled by people at the top.  Did this incident effect how I worked with Hindus at my workplace ? No, because I knew that those Hindus did not support the actions of a few ignorants. To be honest, I think it is utterly pointless for muslims/non-muslims to even try to discuss political/war situations.  We are looking at it from two different perspectives, and neither of us can follow each other's line of reasoning.  We end up, like in this thread, just arguing the same points over and over again.   I will end with one message each for muslims and non muslims.   Muslims : the ONLY reason we are suffering at the moment is because of our going away from Islam.  History has shown that the muslims do not suffer when they faith and actions are strong.  We live in a time when maybe 10% of muslims even pray their 5 times a salat : what can we expect ? Non-muslims : bear in mind that almost 100% of muslims have totally condemened the WTC tragedy and the people who did it, yet the majority of Americans have given unwavering support to everying Bush has done, regardless of whether it is just or legal. Ask yourself whether this is a selfish attitude.
NS
03/29/02 at 19:01:27
humble_muslim

Re: A new Usama Bin Laden description
ltcorpest2
03/29/02 at 18:09:30
? Non-muslims : bear in mind that almost 100% of muslims have totally condemened the WTC tragedy and the people who did it, yet the majority of Americans have given unwavering support to everying Bush has done, regardless of whether it is just or legal. Ask yourself whether this is a selfish attitude.   Is that true?  I seem to keep hearing that a majority of muslims do not believe taht UBL had anything to do with it?  I do not think most Americans give unwavering support to Bush.  Maybe for the short term they did, But  give it time and peoples attitudes will change. . To be honest, I think it is utterly pointless for muslims/non-muslims to even try to discuss political/war situations But Hamayoun,  it is soooo fun.  I really really  do like Mujahiids posts,  although i must say,  they were some of the 1st ones i read when i came across this place and they really really ticked me off.

Re: A new Usama Bin Laden description
humble_muslim
03/29/02 at 19:09:22
Mike, Whether muslims think UBL did it or not, NO muslim (apart from a few really carzy ones) have failed to utterly condemn the WTC attack.  The two things (wheter UBL did it, and condening the WTC attack) are orthogonal to each other. I don't consider it "fun" to discuss death and destruction when other people are the ones suffering, and I am not.  I CRIED for many days after the WTC incident; I still hate just thinking about it.  The only reason I am getting involved in this thread is not for fun, but because I do not want to see my religion being maligned, and bringing war and politics into is an easy way to do that.   With all SERIOUSNES, I think that Americans are currently behind Bush because of the US media potrayal of this whole thing.  I'm in the UK on vacation at the moment, and the media here is VERY different from the US media as far as the "war on terror" is concerned. So the fact that most Americans support Bush does not surprise me one bit.
NS

Re: A new Usama Bin Laden description
ltcorpest2
03/30/02 at 10:53:59
Hamayoun,  In all seriousness,  it wasnt england that  was attacked,  it was the US.  I am sorry but the US media showing the world trade center being collapsed is more than enough for Americans to want our President in no uncertain terms to act and act strongly.  When terrorists run a plane into the tower of london,  i guarantee you that england will act.  So, please do not even try to put the blame on the Us media.  The blame goes directly on AL Qaeda. If they have a problem with the US , and they want to start a war, then so be it.  But then they need to accept the consequences of those actions.

Re: A new Usama Bin Laden description
Caraj
03/30/02 at 17:06:10
I wanted to reply to a few things but I don't want to do the cut and paste stuff. Takes to much time.   Can someone please tell me how to post quotes more than once in a post? I have seen where someone quote post quote post How is this done please?

Re: A new Usama Bin Laden description
mujaahid
03/30/02 at 17:18:00
[slm] Mikey you said the planes going into the world trade towers is enough for bush to blow up innocent afghan, in thier thousands right? Well thats how you see it right? Do you wanna know how the muslsims see it? And this is REALLY gona tick you of. Or is it? Seeing small babies dying in Iraqi hospitals, in thier thousands, because US sanctions prevent the most basic of medicines, is enough for the Islaamic world to support action against the country doing it. Seeing small Iraqi children with massive cancerous lumps growing out thier necks, the size baseballs, because of the Uranium tipped weapns used by the US is enough reason for us to feel it right for people Like Bin Laadin to launch strikes agianst those responsible, and BEFORE you start rolling around on the floor because you think i'm saying the WTC attacks were good, get up Mike, i am Reffering to blowing up the USS Cole!! That was not a terrorist act, but a heroic act to make SURE that ship was no longer able to carry out attacks against Iraq. Seeing pictures of hundreds of dead bodies of Somali muslims killed by devastating US attacks is enough reason for Muslims to support Bin Laadin in hitting back at the US. Seeing pictures of Israelis launching attacks with high tech weapons agianst women and children, weapons supplied by the US to DO this, is enough reason for us to Support OBL in declaring War on the USA. The USA has done a LOT more harm to the world than they have EVER had to go through themselves, they have bombed and killed millions, from korea to Vietnam, to cambodia to iraq, to lebanon, to afghanistan, to somalia, and sudan, the list is masssive, the list is endless, the massive numbers of innocents killed by the US easily goes into the millions. Now you tell me, some fools ramed a plane into the WTC towers killing 3 thousand. The high and Mighty USA has killed millions upon millions of innocent people. Who are the real terrorists? Take away the names, just call them group A and group B, look at the figures of innocents killed by either side, look at the list of lives ruined, nations plunged into poverty by either side. I Gurantee you, one is gona have low numbers, one will have MASSIVE numbers of casualties caused, people murdered, probably so large its beyond belief. YOU will say these people are evil, they are crazy, they are murderers, and you will ask, "Who is this B, who are they, who do the do this all for, why do they do this" and to your shock and horror, you will be told, "this murderous group, called B, is the USA", and you will gasp, and gulp, then turn a blind eye, and walk away as if nothng happened, unable to accept the fact that your nation is in fact the greatest terrorist this planat has ever known. Wake up Mike, because Europe is, and so is the UK, your greatest allies are starting to see you for your true colours (not you personally, but the USA), and you are loosing friends fast, and the world is getting sick to death with your nations threats and bullying, and i have seen with my own eyes even white non-muslims here in the UK starting to understand why people Hated you enough to wanna caryr out the WTC attacks. Sympathy for the WTC attacks is starting to evaporate.

Re: A new Usama Bin Laden description
Caraj
03/30/02 at 17:21:15
[quote author=mujaahid link=board=ummah;num=1016510403;start=30#30 date=03/29/02 at 11:45:01]<We all act like brothers and sisters on a board but Mujaahid talks about hoping others get nukes and I quote 'big nukes'> Cara i say that because everyone has a right to defend themselves, and if the US is making threats to destroy nations, why SHOULDNT these nations have the right to defend themselves? <But yet people think we are so bad and are terriable people, yet people want in  here so bad they even sneak in when they cannot get visa's> CARA why dont you ever listen to this point i keep making? They only do this because they have nothing else, WHY? Because of the behaviour of the US in thier home lands!! Sanctions, boycottss etc plunged their home countries into poverty, these peopel than have nothing!! >>>>>>>>>>>I am listening, just cause I do not 100 % agree does not mean I am not listening. As for Santions and boycotts, when someone gives it is out of the kinde\ness of their heart, no one says you have to sell your goods to anyone. And I mentioned before... Like with the Iraqi government, they have money for weapons and chemicals and they even use stuff like that on their own people, if they have money for weapons they have money to feed their people.  How they choose to use their resourses is their choice. Then one says well they cannot get stuff in???? WELL HOW THE HECK are they getting weapon and chemical supplies in??? >>>>>>>Also people from Iraq and many other countries were flocking here years and even decades before the santions were placed. ********************************************************** <And I said it before, IF people were getting killed in my name I would come forward, not coward behind a country and people. > People are being killed in your name, the afghans are being murdered in the name of ALL americans! Bush is proud to make that point often. *********************************************************** >>>>>>>>>>>NO THEY ARE NOT GETTING KILLED IN MY NAME, I am not wanted by the US government, nor the Saudi government NOR ANY Other government for that matter. So people are not getting killed in my name and there are no warrents out for me or for my arrest. *********************************************************** <So what if he wanted the US out of Saudi That is between Saudi and the US not Bin Laden. > No, its between the Muslims and the US, ALL muslims. That is OUR holy lands, and the US have no right to be thier. Bin Laadin was prepared to get them out of their. ********************************************************* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>No it is between the two countries, like someone said why not go after his own government if he thinks it is doing wrong??????? I thought that was a great response. If the Saudi government or any other government asks for help or assistance, they have the right to ask who they want to do it. That may be your Holy Land but it is the country owned by the Saudi government and when they let them in it was between them and the US.  Now if Saudi asks them to get out (which I think is being discussed now)  then I think they need to get out, Not cause a third party wants them to do so. *********************************************************** <Why is it that he is a wanted man in his own country > Because he is prepared to stand up to, and speak against the oppression, and brutality of the regime he lived under, the Saudi royals. He was a threat to them being overthrown. <Mujaahid and any other I have a question for you?? If I am not Muslim and I don't wear a total cover do you think I should be beaten Jailed killed? > No, and i dont ever remeber any sane muslim, saying that!! ********************************************************* >>>>>>>>>>>>Well just thought I would ask, after all I am part of a country and government you despise ********************************************************* [/quote] [color=Blue][/color]
03/30/02 at 17:25:45
Caraj

Re: A new Usama Bin Laden description
Sparrow
03/30/02 at 21:13:44
YIKES!  I cannot get the quote thing to work either, I am just going to have to wing it and hope I hit all the points I want to. Mujaahid, first of all let me say you are right, I should not have assumed that you read my post and didn't respond.  I apologize for that.  Now, on to it. "Islaam is one family, and when you see muslims in other lands been massacred, murdered, raped, burnt alive, those who truly believe feel thier pain. It feels like our own brothers and sisters are going through it. " - okay, I understand what you meant by "oppression" now.   "However i CAN understand why they would be prepared to go to such extremes, when you have nothing else left, you become desparate. Suicide bombings are the act of a desparate person." - I agree 100 percent.  I can understand why a desperate person would do this.  In fact, when I hear the media here going off about how horrible things are for the Israelis I think "what about the Palestinians?!"  I think it's a must for us not to just try and rectify the situation of the Palestinians but look to what led them (and us) to this place,a dn take responsibility for turning a blind eye and throwing our (US) unilateral support behind Israel adn its brutal policies. "We all know that its American policy to kill innocents, any sane person can see that, but that dont mean WE muslims should do likewise. " It's AMerican government policy to do whatever it takes to look out for #1, namely, the American givernment.  However, I certainly don't think this is an American phenomanon.  IMHO, ALL governments, whther they be American or Taliban, exist to further their own power, control, and bank accounts, full stop.  You seem to think the US invented corrupt government.   You tell me I shouldn't trust or believe my government: why do you trust and believe yours?   "Sparrow Bush has admitted he is prepared to obliterate any nations which pose a threat, any nation that does not kiss US butt, but is prepared to develop weapons to protect itself against US aggression has been given a clear message, that they will be obliterated if they use those weapons to defend themselves if the US decides to invade." -I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing here, but I will say that I believe the first duty of any government is to protect its citizens.  The US govt has every right to protect itself against attack, and other countries have every right to fight back.   "He is an Embecile, a murderer, and plain evil. He even has the looks of an Evil man. Compare him to Bin Laadin, Bush has a little, whiny face, with small, sharp, beady evil eyes, while binlaadin is tall, dark, handsome, has big round eyes, has a beautiful warm smile.   Compare the two. And see for yourself. " - they are both unattractive as far as I am concerned.  But here's my question: if it is proved that Bin Laden had something to do with 9/11  will you call him an evil murderer or will you find some excuse for his behavior, like he "has a good reason," or "it was the act of a desperate man" etc. "for a start, i would NOT EVER kill thousands of innocent people, i would not bomb villages to the ground, i would not be a coward and send bombs from thousands of feet in the air, i would not murder innocent people.     secondly, if i was Bush, when the Taliban asked for evidence that bin laadin was involved, i would have shown it to them, because their was a chance (if any evidence existed), that bin laadin WOULD have been handed over, even to a neutral country. That should have meant they had thier hands on him. But when Bush clearly said he had no intention of talking, "hand him over or else", it showed the sane world that Bush was after war, and nothing else. He couldnt give a flying fiddle if he got bin laadin or not. " - nor would I kill innocent people. But neither would I run and hide in caves when the innocent people I claim to love so much are being blown to smithereens.  I would let myself be killed before I would let my silence and cowardice result in the death of babies and children.  AS far as proof goes, let me ask you this. What proof would be enough?  Everytime there is something that might be the slightest hint of proof there is a great outcry in the Muslim world, that it is fabricated, it's a conspiracy, translated badly etc. etc.  I believe that for many muslims nothing will ever be enough proof.  What would it take to convince you? And why do you belive that the Taliban would have willing handed Bin Laden over, even with proof? "well for a start they could have caught who done it, you know, like the one the "claimed" done it, they could have had him!!   But the fact they openly blew any chances of it sent alarm bells ringiing, and many people realised the reason the US took that stance was because they dont have anything on Bin Laadin, apart from a bit of laughable evidence!!" - I'm not sure what you mean by the first paragarpah.  Could you please clarify? "What about the Kill kill kill policy/philosophy of the US in Vietnam, Korea, Cambodia, Iran, Lebanon, Sudan, Somalia, Iraq, Nagasaki, Hiroshma, Afghanisatn, to name but a few?   - just as bad, alhtouhg I was speaking more of the common mans opinion, not government.  that governments will kill to get what they want comes as no surprise to me.   Or has that passed you buy? If the blantant murder of millions by the US acceptable because their media can brainwash you into thinking the US can do no wrong, and everyone else just misunderstands you?   - okay we were good til now but now you've offended me.  Disagreement with you does not equal Sparrow is brainwashed and ignorant. I am more than aware of what is going on in the world and what part the US has played in it so don't assume that you hold some sort of moral high ground here.  Do you really think I'm so weak-minded and idiotic that I take what the media give me with no question?  Give me a break.  And I suppose all the folks living and dying by what is reported on Al Jazeera AREN'T brainwashed, right?  Al Jazeera has no agenda of its own and only reports the God's honest truth.   What, do the Americans REALLY believe that people will not give them payback? Do you REALLY believe people will not come after you for revenge after all the death and destruction the US has caused all over the world? - no, I don't believe that, and was not surprised (saddened and frightened, yes, because I was there) by 9/11.  I think 9/11 was a long time coming, and frankly, I'm surprosed it didn't happen sooner.     "Sept 11 was bought upon the US by itself. If you hadnt ruined so many nations, killed so many innocent millions, ruined so many lives, people would never have hated you as much as they do, because they would never have HAD a reason to hate you so much." - 9/11 was brought on (in part) by the US foreign policy of running roughshod over other countries, absolutely.  But those people did not deserve to die becuase of what the government does, any more than the Afghans deserved to die because of Al Quida.   You know what was really horrible to me after 9/11?  That the Muslims I know barely took a breath between the two sentences "Oh yes it's horrible" and "but you know the US deserved it."  The bodies weren't even cold yet and there was all this discussion about how the US deserved what it got.    That's not helpful.  I would have liked it if after a decent time, prominent Muslims here and abroad opened the floor for discussion of the possbility  (reality?) that US foreing policy  had something to do with the attack.  I;m generalizing here, but some good could have come of this is the form of open dialogue, but instead the response was one of angry defensiveness, and in the end I think that has done more harm than good.   I don't know you at all, of course, but it seemd to me that you know your stuff and have a lot of relevant points to make, but when I read your posts, those things get lost in the blind hostility I sense in them, and put *me* on the defensive.  Maybe I'm naive, but in the end I think it will be people like you and me who are going to bring the world around. How can we do that if we are defensive and angry? "because Europe is, and so is the UK, your greatest allies are starting to see you for your true colours (not you personally, but the USA), and you are loosing friends fast, and the world is getting sick to death with your nations threats and bullying, and i have seen with my own eyes even white non-muslims here in the UK starting to understand why people Hated you enough to wanna caryr out the WTC attacks. Sympathy for the WTC attacks is starting to evaporate." - the world will spew and spout until they need US money, or want the US to ride in and save their collective behinds from invasions. then they will change their tune, as always. "They only do this because they have nothing else, WHY? Because of the behaviour of the US in thier home lands!! Sanctions, boycottss etc plunged their home countries into poverty, these peopel than have nothing!! " - rubbish.  US influence/behavior may be a part of it, but we must also look to corrupt governments within each country, people like Sadam Hussein yelling about US sanctions while he and his family live off the fat of the land, he uses all his money to make weapons, thereby assuring the US will continue sanctions and his people will suffer and die.  Great leadership that.  Do you really believe it's that black and white?  People cometo this country because, despite all its problems, it is still a better place to live than 90 percent of the world.  I don't see a lot of people heading back to the homeland. - Finally, Please understand that my disagreement is not really with your opinions per se.  In fact, I think that if we comapred them side by side you and I might agree more often than not.  My problem is that you are so convicned that you are right, when in reality we have no idea of the hows and whys of what's happening in the world. Neither of us is stupid or ignorant, we jsut aren't privy to what's really happeneing (unless of course you are in actuality some high ranking government official :) )  Frankly, you remind me of these crazed flag-waving Americans, who can't conceive of the idea that maybe - just maybe - that they are wrong, and refuse to believe the US has done some very evil, corrupt, insidious things, and who believe that what they are being told by the goverbment is the truth!  Aren't you doing the same thing?  Right or wrong, there are thousands of Americans who feel as strongly about Bin LAden as you do about Bush.  Who's to say who is right? You're 100 percent sure that you are right about Bush, and they are 100 percent sure they are right about Bin Laden.  My opinion is that I don't know.  For all I know, Bush and Bin Laden are on the phone once a day planning to take over the world togetehr.  How can you be so convicned that you're right when in reality, no one knows?  You may be dead wrong. Okay I'm going to end and go bake something. Much more peaceful.   Thanks for answering my post.  Looking forward to your response! Peace, Sparrow

Re: A new Qsama Bin Laden description
Abu_Mustafa
03/31/02 at 00:23:02
[slm] everyone, Alhamdulillah, a very good and logically put argument by Br. Mujaahid. So ltcorpest2, you wrote, [quote]SINCE i AM SO LAME i CANT FIGURE OUT HOW TO QUOTE ANYONES POST i WILL ( also I will take the caps lock off now also).  respond to some of mujahiid post.  What the heck does round eyes and a beautiful smile have to do with anything?  and besides,  my wife thinks Bush is cute.  I vote libertarian,  so I am neutral on how cute Bush is.   [quote/] So if you are a libertarian, then what do you think about what Harry Browne had to say about 9/11 and American foreign policy.  You can read all about it by following the link below. http://www.harrybrowne.org/TerrorismSeries.htm   (What I was referring to was this link on that page, A Foreign Policy for America.  But it looks like it was taken off for some reason.  I read it last night after seeing him on Hannity and Colmes show) Anyway what Harry Browne said was that it is our foreign policy that is to blame for all this.  He said if he had become president he would have started pulling all the troops from over 100 countries that they are deplyoed in, for the first nine months of 2001.  Maybe that would have averted the 9/11 tragedy.  So now you should agree with Br. Mujaahid because essentially Harry Browne (the Libertarian who ran for the presidency) is saying the same thing.   Abu Mustafa

Re: A new Usama Bin Laden description
ltcorpest2
03/31/02 at 00:42:30
i know what Harry Browne has been saying for quite some time.  While I agree on several parts of his foreign policy,  (I for the most part agree with a non-interventionist policy)  but I totally disagree with him in respect to 911.  911 was a direct attack on th United States.  One of the presidents main jobs is to provide defence of our nation and when we are attacked he must act.  The failure to act when our embassies were bombed and the attack on the original trade center bombing and the seattle/ lax attempt in fact emboldenedthe people to attack us like they did on 911. and mujahiid,  becasue Osama Bin Laden (or AL Qaeda) wants to take pot shots asnd then filter back into the civilian population.  It is he that set the tone,  go after civilians 1st.   I feel very badly for the civilians of afgahnistan, but like osama said,  there are no innocents,  if you are part of the us economy, then you are not innocent  (sorry for the butcher of his quote but he basically said it in the AL Jazeera interview.  and I know we hashed this out before, but Saddam Hussein should never had signed that treaty if he wasnt going to live up to it (not that treaties havent been broken before by just about everyone).  But if you know taht someone is powerful enough to make you stick to it, then well. gotta go, its easter,  God Bless you all.

Re: A new Usama Bin Laden description
eleanor
03/31/02 at 09:14:21
[slm] I'd  like to make an appeal to all the Muslims who are taking part in this discussion. Please be very careful with what you say on this board. The consequences for driving a potential Muslim away from Islam are surely greater than the chance of reward for defending OBL to the world wasalaam eleanor  :-*
03/31/02 at 17:19:59
eleanor

Re: A new Usama Bin Laden description
mujaahid
03/31/02 at 16:31:50
Sparrow <<It's AMerican government policy to do whatever it takes to look out for #1, namely, the American givernment.  However, I certainly don't think this is an American phenomanon.>> I agree, most governments would do this. However, you must ask yourself, how many other governments have killed as many, and bombed as many countries as the USA? The numbers would be very few. Most brutal governments stick to oppressing their own people, and maybe a few neighbours. The US has decided to bully much of the defenceless world!! And any nations who do acqruire weapons to fight back, are automatically labelled Rogue States, and made out to be Evil. The hollywood gets in on the act pumping out all kinds of propoganda movies!! <IMHO, ALL governments, whther they be American or Taliban, exist to further their own power, control, and bank accounts, full stop.> It depends, its probably true for all, but to what extent are they prepare to do this? For example, how many other countries did the Taliban ever target, in fact i dont even remeber them threatening any other country! <You seem to think the US invented corrupt government.   You tell me I shouldn't trust or believe my government: why do you trust and believe yours? > But i DONT trust mine!! They are the USA's biggest puppets, Tony Blair is a fraud of a leader!! The UK public dont even trust the leaders!! In fact all polls suggest the public is sick of the lies and spin!! <-I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing here, but I will say that I believe the first duty of any government is to protect its citizens.> Yes, but making half the world hate you is not really protecting your people is it, in fact its more likely to make them targets for hate and revenge attacks!! <- they are both unattractive as far as I am concerned.  But here's my question: if it is proved that Bin Laden had something to do with 9/11  will you call him an evil murderer or will you find some excuse for his behavior, like he "has a good reason," or "it was the act of a desperate man" etc.> If he really did have something to do with it, then he would be seen as an evil murderer, thiers no way you could call him anythhing else. <- nor would I kill innocent people. But neither would I run and hide in caves when the innocent people I claim to love so much are being blown to smithereens.> Sparrow, you MUST realise this point i'm gona make. The Taliban, just before the US attacked, asked the US if they handed Bin Laadin over, would the USA not attack the country. The USA said no, they would still attack. Therefore its pointless to say thousands of innocents have died because bin laadin is hiding, because the reality is that even if he WAS handed over, the USA would still have attacked. Also Bin Laadin is not hiding. He was leading the attacks in the Tora Bora mountains in December, against US forces. <AS far as proof goes, let me ask you this. What proof would be enough?> I dont know, i aint a legal expert, but in november, the UK government released a "damning" paper provong bin laadins guilt. When the legal experts went through it, they laughed it off, saying the case would immedialtly be thrown out of court because the evidence was basically a joke!! <Everytime there is something that might be the slightest hint of proof there is a great outcry in the Muslim world, that it is fabricated, it's a conspiracy, translated badly etc. etc.> Sparrow that Tape of Bin laadin was highly suspicious, everything about it, from the key inaudible words, to the happy, worry free chubby bin laadin, to the fact that not once did he mention US airstrikes, to the fact that why would he allow someone to video him? <What would it take to convince you?> The Talibans Judgement. <And why do you belive that the Taliban would have willing handed Bin Laden over, even with proof?> Because they said they would, and them being deeply Fundamentalist about Islaam, they WOULD have handed him over. Remeber the Taliban and OBL did not get on as well as the media makes out. Also, one on the Talibans main officials said if he saw evidence that Bin Laadin was responsible, he said he himself would slit bin laadins throat. Understand that the Taliban came to power without Bin Laadin, they did not rely on him, or his money. Ones mans wealth is not enough to sustain a goverment, not even Bin Laadins. "well for a start they could have caught who done it, you know, like the one the "claimed" done it, they could have had him!!     <- I'm not sure what you mean by the first paragarpah.  Could you please clarify? > What i meant was that if the USA wanted to react in the right way after the WTC attacks, they should have got thier hands on the man they claimed was behind it, namely OBL. They should have made a massive effort to get him extradicted, even to a neutral country. The fact that they shrugged thier shoulders at the Talibans demand for evidence should that they were in fact not too bothered about getting OBL. <- okay we were good til now but now you've offended me.  Disagreement with you does not equal Sparrow is brainwashed and ignorant.> I was not referring to you personally, but to the American public in General, which i'm sure you will agree, that they ARE brainwashed by the media!! <And I suppose all the folks living and dying by what is reported on Al Jazeera AREN'T brainwashed, right?  Al Jazeera has no agenda of its own and only reports the God's honest truth.> I never said that! But at least they DO show the reality of US bombings, namely the sickening images of kids with thier limbs missing.   <You know what was really horrible to me after 9/11?  That the Muslims I know barely took a breath between the two sentences "Oh yes it's horrible" and "but you know the US deserved it."  The bodies weren't even cold yet and there was all this discussion about how the US deserved what it got.> But they were making a valid point which the rest of the world was. They were telling it how it was. The Americans only wanted to see it one way, and that being that America was attacked for no reason whatsoever. Also, many many non-muslims said the US also deserved it. So why did you single out the muslims? <I would have liked it if after a decent time, prominent Muslims here and abroad opened the floor for discussion of the possbility  (reality?) that US foreing policy  had something to do with the attack.> We tried, believe me we tried, but the Americans were having none of it. They were going crazy whenever someone even hinted that the USA may have bought this onto itself, that US f-policy was partly to blame!! Anyone who tried to talk rationally was immedialty accused of being a Bin Laadin supporter, or a terrorist sympathiser, or an apologist!! <Maybe I'm naive, but in the end I think it will be people like you and me who are going to bring the world around. How can we do that if we are defensive and angry?> We can do it sparrow, believe me we can. The Government s can only snub the people for so long. Now about the Angry and defensive issue, the reason we are like that is because we are both giving our veiws from two opposing sides. So some things you say tick me off, and some things i say will tick you off, but should we remian silent and avoid the disagreements simply to achieve a false feeling of harmony? One bad point to the Jannah boards is the threads which get locked as soon as something gets heated, this means disagreements are never sorted out, and we never get to know WHY people have the views they have. Now if you cannot sort out differences through dialogue, then what CAN you do? Nothing!! So we may be at each others throats now, but thats because we're putting our cases on the table, i assume that in a few weeks time, things will have calmed down, and we will start coming up with ways to get out of this mess. But we can never get out of this big dark hole unless we work out why and how we got in thier in the first place! Working out why is a volatile issue, but one that MUST be addressed. <- the world will spew and spout until they need US money, or want the US to ride in and save their collective behinds from invasions. then they will change their tune, as always.> You see this is what people dont like about the US, this attitude that you are the worlds saviours!! If you look at those whose butts you have saved, you'll find most are evil dictators!! You saved, SHOCK HORROR, saddams butt during the Iraq/Iran war, by supplying him with weapons and military training. You continue to save the butts of the SAudi Royal thugs! Now you are helping the NA Afghan thugs!! And what about the Latin American/Far East dictators you helped save!! The USA has done more harm them good! <- rubbish.  US influence/behavior may be a part of it, but we must also look to corrupt governments within each country, people like Sadam Hussein yelling about US sanctions while he and his family live off the fat of the land> ....while he develops weapons using the techonology the USA gave him. <he uses all his money to make weapons, thereby assuring the US will continue sanctions and his people will suffer and die.> But if the USA is this force of good, and if it knows that Saddam dont care about sanctions, and that he dont care if his people die, then why are the USA still keeping sanctions on him, even though they know its the people who are gona suffer? <People cometo this country because, despite all its problems, it is still a better place to live than 90 percent of the world.> Well people in Europe, South America, Australasia, and in many Arab states would not agree with that comment. After all dont the US have a mega high crime rate, with murders happening left right and centre, dont the USA have the highest crime rate in the western world, dont they also have the highest rate of teenage pregnancy in the western world? And the high rates of suicide? And rapes? And Serial killers? <I don't see a lot of people heading back to the homeland.> People mostly go to the USA for the money, not for the culture, but saying that, its largly a culture of money. <For all I know, Bush and Bin Laden are on the phone once a day planning to take over the world togetehr.> Well it is a well known fact that the Bush Administration allowed only one plane to leave the USA on the day of the attacks, its was a plane for the Bin Laadin Family!!

Re: A new Usama Bin Laden description
Abu_Hamza
03/31/02 at 16:54:58
[slm] How to quote stuff: It's not that difficult guys :) Take whatever it is that you want to quote, and put at the beginning of it this text: [ q u o t e ] And at the end of it, put this text: [ / q u o t e ] without all the spaces of course. And voila, you'll have the stuff that you wanted to quote appear inside a blue box.   Now, to quote various sentences from somebody's post, you just go to the Reply screen, and at the bottom of the Reply screen you'll see the entire conversation that occurred in that thread.  Look for the phrases that you want to quote in your post.  Copy-paste those phrases from the bottom of your screen onto the window where you type stuff.  And do the above procedure around that text (i.e. [ q u o t e ] and [ / q u o t e ] stuff).   Try it a few times and use the "Preview" feature.  If you need more help with it, IM me :) Wassalamu alaikum wa rahmatullah.
03/31/02 at 16:56:20
Abu_Hamza

Re: A new Usama Bin Laden description
eleanor
03/31/02 at 17:18:41
[slm] Thank you Brother Abu Hamza. That was what I was trying to say, but I was too stupid to know that if I put in spaces then it wouldn't work... wasalaam eleanor  :-*

Re: A new Usama Bin Laden description
jannah
04/01/02 at 01:28:29
[slm] everyone... Ok here's a side comment.... Why are we arguing so much over the character and words of a single man...... a person NONE of us have met or even known.  All we know of him is through (dubious) media sources or claims here or there. And what benefit is it,  even if we could open up his brain or heart and know either way?? I think at this time we should be concentrating on the more important concerns of our Ummah, like our brothers and sisters being starved, incarcerated, humiliated, tortured and killed all over the world, not to mention our sisters and brothers here in the UNITED STATES being detained without trial or reason, their homes raided, their children put in handcuffs, their computer records seized, our educational and relief organizations shut down under the red-scare of 'terrorism'.   Anyway the official bit... this thread is completely delving into the topic of the Taliban under the guise of a' simple discussion' on whether one man's idealogy is correct or not. It is NOT benefitting the greater citizens or guests of this board.  Please, if you are pro/anti taliban take your opinions elsewhere and discuss to your hearts content. There are plenty of free websites and message boards. THIS IS NOT THE BOARD TO AIR THEM IN. This thread is now closed.
04/01/02 at 01:29:42
jannah
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