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Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| Would you lie if asked? |
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| mujaahid |
| 03/25/02 at 09:05:17 |
| [slm] Sisters, say you were meeting a brother to discuss marriage, and this brother asked you: "do you have a past, have you had boyfriends in the past (what you say will not be told to anyone else)" How would the sisters react? Would you tell the truth, would you lie, or would you feel uncomfortable, worried about telling the truth, IF you did have a past? Would you feel the brother has a right to know about your past if he is considering you for marriage? What would you think of a bro who asked this? EWould the SISTERS ask if the bro had a past? |
| Re: Would you lie if asked? |
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| Aneesa_A. |
| 03/25/02 at 11:59:47 |
| [slm] If I was in that situation, I would tell him all that he has to know, but i think it would depend on whether the brother is DEFINATELY going to marry me regardless of what my past is. If he's just "considering" it and can change his mind after I reveal my deepest secrets, then how can I trust him? How do I know that after him knowing, that he may just leave me and the next guy that comes along will ask me the same thing, and i tell him, and the same thing happens? I think that kind of trust is only there once youre assured that he'll marry you regardless. Also, for some it may be different, ie. if the sister has known the guy for quite a while, and theyve become good friends and she trusts him, and knows he wont tell anyone, then thats another story. Its basically a trust issue, whether or not you trust the brother...even if he says no to you, would he tell anyone else? It also depends on how dark the past is, if its something very hurtful and something you just want to forget, then its all the more harder imparting that with someone else and also, re-living those events. It all just depends on the guy, his willingness to marry the woman, and how much of a past she has, and how much they trust each other. I know for one thing that I would want to know if he has a past or not, and if he's willing to share it, then it would make it a lot easier telling him. Surely though, whoever a person ends up with in the end, should have a right, in my opinion, to know what has happened in the others life. It makes the two people even closer knowing they can share things which are very personal. Also, another reason to know could be, is that his/her past experiences makes the person that he/she is today. For eg. a brother gets married, and his wife is quite emotional, insecure, disturbed at times, and if knows what has happened to her in the past, it may enable him to understand her better & help her. [wlm] |
| 03/25/02 at 12:17:44 |
| Aneesa_A. |
| Re: Would you lie if asked? |
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| M.F. |
| 03/25/02 at 12:25:52 |
| Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullah, No one has the right to ask any one to reveal their past sins. If Allah has hidden our sins from people, it is a blessing and we have no right to throw away that blessing. Narrated Abu Huraira: I heard Allah's Apostle saying. "All the sins of my followers will be forgiven except those of the Mujahirin (those who commit a sin openly or disclose their sins to the people). An example of such disclosure is that a person commits a sin at night and though Allah screens it from the public, then he comes in the morning, and says, 'O so-and-so, I did such-and-such (evil) deed yesterday,' though he spent his night screened by his Lord (none knowing about his sin) and in the morning he removes Allah's screen from himself." |
| Re: Would you lie if asked? |
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| Aneesa_A. |
| 03/25/02 at 12:42:52 |
| [slm] oh well..guess i was wrong! [wlm] |
| Re: Would you lie if asked? |
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| mujaahid |
| 03/25/02 at 13:34:58 |
| [slm] Qurat what i'm asking is say before he has agreed to marry, like when you first meet to discuss marriage, and he's asking about you, your background, education etc, then he asks if you've had a past, what would you say? What if he first said to you that the past to him is massive, that he will not want to marry a woman with a bad past, that he would not be able to bear the thought of his wife, the mother of his children being touched by another man, knowing this, knowing how he feels about it, would you still lie and mislead him into marrying you? Or, even though you may like him a lot, would you prepared to be honest knwoing it would blow completely any chance of marrying him? Would you be prepared to marry someone who have mislead, knwoing that if he knew the truth, he would not have married you? |
| Re: Would you lie if asked? |
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| Aneesa_A. |
| 03/25/02 at 14:07:50 |
| [slm] Well if that was the case, then i would be completely honest to him, especially if it was so important to him. If i had a past, i would tell him that i did. I dont think i could mis-lead anyone that way. Its just wrong. [wlm] |
| Re: Would you lie if asked? |
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| Jenna |
| 03/25/02 at 15:20:11 |
| [quote author=Qurat-Ul-Ain link=board=sis;num=1017065117;start=0#5 date=03/25/02 at 14:07:50] [slm] Well if that was the case, then i would be completely honest to him, especially if it was so important to him. If i had a past, i would tell him that i did. I dont think i could mis-lead anyone that way. Its just wrong. [/quote] [wlm] Too me, its best if he doesnt ask, because whatever she did in the past is between her and Allaah!! Yet if he was really serious (like Qurat-Ul-Ain said) then I would tell him everything, because I would want his heart to be completely cleared........... And if he remembers that Allah forgives those who repent, then he should not keep reminding her, or trying to make her feel bad troughout their marriage..... Also that same question could be turned around to the man.... gotta go check my Frijoles (beans) (yes I make home made once in a while).. You Sis in Islaam Jenna :-) |
| Re: Would you lie if asked? |
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| mujaahid |
| 03/25/02 at 15:36:22 |
| [slm] "Well if that was the case, then i would be completely honest to him, especially if it was so important to him. If i had a past, i would tell him that i did. I dont think i could mis-lead anyone that way. Its just wrong" Jazaakullah Qurat for that answer. I am glad to see that you are prepared to be honest for the sake of a possible future husband :) I agree that its just plain wrong for people to mislead others by lying about such big things, especially when they know how important it is to the other person. And the truth often does come out anyway sooner or later, it may slip out in an argument, the brother may hear gossip, or someone who knew this sisters past may tell the brother (i have heard of a case where this happened, and the bro, unable to bear the thought of being mislead, divorced his wife). So to avoid all that trouble later on in the marriage, its better to be honest from the start. Some bros will be able to accept a womens pst, knowing they have grown up in such an environment, but others wont be so accepting and willing to turn a blind eye. |
| Re: Would you lie if asked? |
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| Laila |
| 03/25/02 at 17:52:28 |
| [slm] If memory serves me correctly, if the so-called "sin/s" were really in the past, were seriously repented and put totally aside the the person (male OR female), then that same repentance was accepted by Allah(swt), and His forgiveness was received. All a questioning :-) or ;-) need ask is if the other party is free of "disease" ,-would they be tested, and are they currently free of emotional and physical involvement with someone. Unless you are currently a housebound teen, or have been a college geek, almost no one is free of a sin that they have'nt felt the need of repentance and forgiveness. And those of us who were "older" when we came to Islam, and are single, would you negate our need for a loving marriage because at one time we were sinful? Who is to judge these things? Allah(swt) only. [wlm] :-) Laila |
| Re: Would you lie if asked? |
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| Ayla_A |
| 03/25/02 at 20:34:28 |
| [slm] I agree with M.F. and Laila. What is in the past and forgiven should stay there. Now if the brother needs to know this before he is willing to marry I feel the only thing he could ask (my personal opinion only) is if she is a virgin....Maybe I am wrong but I think this is the only question that should be asked..... [wlm] :-) Ayla_A :-) |
| Re: Would you lie if asked? |
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| bhaloo |
| 03/26/02 at 01:49:39 |
| [slm] As I have posted in the naseeah folder: Sheikh Munajjid was asked this question: A woman says that she married a righteous man, but she did things before marriage that were displeasing to Allaah. Now her conscience is troubling her, and she asks whether she has to tell her husband about what she did in the past. He answered it like this: Neither spouse is obliged to tell the other about bad things that they might have done in the past. Anyone who has committed wrongful deeds should conceal them as Allaah has concealed him (or her). Sincere repentance is sufficient. If a man marries a virgin, but it becomes apparent to him at the time of consummation that she is not in fact a virgin because of an immoral act that she committed in the past, he has the right to take back the mahr (dowry) that he had given her and to divorce her. If, however, he sees that she has repented and that Allaah has covered her sin, and he decides to stay with her, then he will be amply rewarded by Allaah Taken from: I want to repent BUT... http://www.islam-qa.com/books/wantrepent/english.shtml |
| Re: Would you lie if asked? |
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| sunset |
| 03/26/02 at 05:00:28 |
| [slm] It is always easier to be honest about anything cause we don't have to worry about any consequences in future. When a brother/sister asked their potential spouse about their past, should the past be reveal? Why would anyone hide the truth (lie) about their past. Personally, I do not think their main intention is to mislead and trick people into marrying them but we should also consider that their past might be too painful or shameful to reveal. Another reason would be they have found a potential who they strongly feel can guide them into a better muslim life. Maybe they are afraid of losing this potential just because of their past which they have put far behind and repented from it. If only more people can learn to accept people for who they are and what they did easily. If Allah as the creator can forgive those who repented and made tauba, why can't we as His slave do the same? Maybe it would be best that we do not ask the potential about their past since we decided to make them a potential for who they are now, for who they have become not for who they were. [wlm] :-) |
| Re: Would you lie if asked? |
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| mujaahid |
| 03/26/02 at 07:06:40 |
| [slm] But how do we know they have/havnt repented? How many muslim women are practising? How many WANT to be practising? If asked, a person SHOULD tell of their past, if they are not aksed, then dont tell. But why lie? We see what happens if the past is later found out, it usually ends in divorce. The innocent partner feels they have been betrayed, lied to and mislead for years by thier spouse, and this angre and rage is too much to cope with, and they usually divocre, so if all this could be avoided by simply being honest about the past, why not just be honest? |
| Re: Would you lie if asked? |
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| Kathy |
| 03/26/02 at 08:46:32 |
| [quote author=mujaahid link=board=sis;num=1017065117;start=0#0 date=03/25/02 at 09:05:17] "do you have a past,... [/quote] Yes, a past, a present and Insha Allah a future! ;) Seriously tho- I can understand both sides and have even seen a marriage crumble because a husband asked/demanded to know about his wife's "past" after they had been married for about 3 months. My husband choose to never ask me. For some stupid reason I even offered to tell him about my "past." Al-humdullillah he refused. My first hubby asked and I told- it ate him alive.- although he did have other problems as well.(- and my past was quite mild!) I think the term "Past" is relative to who you are talking to. For the average American girl- to have a couple boyfriends by time she is 21 is not uncommon- and we would not consider it a "past." What constitutes a "past"- kissing, dating- or are you talking about marital relations- outside of marriage? As MF and bhaloo pointed out- it is a win win situation by not confessing. I think you can get alot more information by how she treats you when you are inquiring about marriage. Is she a flirt? or shy? What have you heard about her? Perhaps for the men- like you- it would be in your best interest to marry a virgin. |
| 03/26/02 at 08:58:50 |
| Kathy |
| Re: Would you lie if asked? |
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| mujaahid |
| 03/26/02 at 09:53:22 |
| [wlm] <Seriously tho- I can understand both sides and have even seen a marriage crumble because a husband asked/demanded to know about his wife's "past" after they had been married for about 3 months. > My point EXACTLY!! Now what if he had asked, and she told him BEFORE they got married? They could have avoided the whole mess by not getting married, it would have saved a lot of heartache. <What constitutes a "past"- kissing, dating- or are you talking about marital relations- outside of marriage? > Depends, but a boyfriend, long term, serious is a past in my opinion. <As MF and bhaloo pointed out- it is a win win situation by not confessing. > It depends on the guy. If he wants to know of the past, and it matters to him, then its not a win win at all, in facts its heading for disaster as the truth always has a way of leaking out!! <I think you can get alot more information by how she treats you when you are inquiring about marriage. Is she a flirt? or shy?> Yes, but the past also tells what a person is like. <What have you heard about her?> Well what if you hear something about your wife AFTER your married, something she hid from you, even if you asked her to mention it? How will the guy react to knwoing his wife mislead him during the marriage discussions? Its happend, it happens a lot, and it usually ends in divorce. So, if their are any young sisters out their reading this, young as in early teens etc, 13, 14, DO NOT get involved in all this boyfreind/girlfreind, dating nonsense, because later on it could, and may well, come back to haunt you. So to avoid a life of rejection and people turning you down for marriage, dont make the mistake of going out with boys because everyone else is doing it. It isnt fun, its not clerver, it only leads to heartache and tears, so avoid it all, and the future will be bright, you will have guys queing up to ask for your hand in marriage :) So learn from the mistakes of past generations, and dont make the same mistakes. ;-) Perhaps for the men- like you- it would be in your best interest to marry a virgin. |
| Re: Would you lie if asked? |
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| Caraj |
| 03/26/02 at 10:39:11 |
| Cara>>>>>>> looks to the left...... :-[ No Jannah Cara>>>>>>> looks the the right ::) No Jannah ;D Mujy ATTACKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK ;) hehe just joking Lil' Bro Now stop that >>> :'( here have a >>> [] He lil' Bro here's a couple luddos to go with your [] ;D luddos and [] official mujy calmer and a great bribe :-/ Mujaahid, I would like to respond to this as a women with a past and a women who gave and needed forgiveness, permission to speak freely and bluntly (but respectfully) Can you handle blunt and honesty? |
| 03/26/02 at 10:41:02 |
| Caraj |
| Re: Would you lie if asked? |
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| mujaahid |
| 03/26/02 at 11:43:27 |
| [slm] Can I hadnle honesty? Yes :D Its SHOWTIME!!! :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X |
| Oh fer cryin' out loud |
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| UmmWafi |
| 03/26/02 at 12:18:17 |
| [slm] ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) NOT AGAIN !!!!!!!!! Mujy..I thought we have been through this dodgy-sis-with-past debate before ???? Listen mate, virginity is NOT equals to a piece of skin called hymen that supposedly block the passageway to a woman's innermost parts. The hymen is the skin lining the side of the passageway. So theoretically, it is rather difficult for men to know fer sure whether a woman is a virgin or not. Unless she say so. Would a gynaecologist like to agree or refute this statement ? ( I got this fact from a gynae/obstretician ). Virginity is actually what u feel deep inside. Even if a woman has been married and divorced 3 times, she could still be a virgin on her wedding night with her fourth husband. Why ? Because perhaps she has known no happiness from her previous husbands and in her heart, her fourth husband is her true love, the one Allah has blessed her with and the one she gives herself to, inhtellectually, emotionally and bodily. Thus, that woman, in my eyes , is still a virgin. If u choose to limit a woman by a piece of skin, tough. Both the woman and the man has the right NOT to talk or reveal abt her past to ANYONE. Including her husband, let alone so-called potential fiance. If any guy has the audacity and effrontery to ask me about my past, I shall ask him this question instead. "Would u still love and respect me should I have a past ?" If he says no, then I will thank him for his time and show him the door. If he says yes, I will tell him, Good for u, perhaps when we are truly married and have matured together, Insya'Allah I will tell u. After all, if he was to accept me regardless, then it shouldn't matter to him whether I tell him or not about my past. Whats more important is how me and my partner are NOW and how we will be in the FUTURE. The past is never our glory neither is it our shame for they are just canvases for now upon which we build our future. That said, I don't know about the rest of ya, but I find this would-one's-past-matter-in-a-marriage issue rather tiring. It smacks too much of a holier than thou attitude. Sorry Mujy *ruffles his hair* guess the virus attacking me is attacking me brains too. Wassalam |
| 03/26/02 at 12:19:53 |
| UmmWafi |
| Re: Would you lie if asked? |
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| mujaahid |
| 03/26/02 at 13:32:41 |
| [slm] <Listen mate> err...i prefer you call me brother :) <Virginity is actually what u feel deep inside.> Ehem, dont wish to sound crude, but i think the rest of humanity would think otherwise. <Even if a woman has been married and divorced 3 times, she could still be a virgin on her wedding night with her fourth husband.> Yes, if she has not consumated the marriage. If she has, then she is not a virgin, how can she be! COme on Sister, dont play this card please!! <Thus, that woman, in my eyes , is still a virgin.> Maybe in your eyes, but technically she is not! <If u choose to limit a woman by a piece of skin, tough.> I dont remeber saying that. But Yes, Virginity is a MASSIVE thing. I guarantee you, 100% of Muslim men would refuse to marry a girl who was not a virgin!! If she was married previously, thats different. I'm talking about unmarried none virgins. <If any guy has the audacity and effrontery to ask me about my past, I shall ask him this question instead. "Would u still love and respect me should I have a past ?" > And if the guy had any sense, he would say:8br> "Answer the Question". <If he says no, then I will thank him for his time and show him the door.> But if he asked YOU if you had a past, and you refused to Answer, then he would probably get up and say "thanks for your time, good luck in finding a husband" and walk out! If a woman reacted the way you say, the guy would IMMEDIATLEY realise your hiding something major, and would not go any further! <Whats more important is how me and my partner are NOW and how we will be in the FUTURE. The past is never our glory neither is it our shame for they are just canvases for now upon which we build our future.> Go and tell that to all the brothers whose wives have run off with previous boyfriends. I guarantee, most brothers will not wanna risk it. <That said, I don't know about the rest of ya, but I find this would-one's-past-matter-in-a-marriage issue rather tiring. It smacks too much of a holier than thou attitude.> Yeah, well thats your decision. But all the brothers who have kept themselves untouched deserve a similar wife, not someone elses bit on the side. You find it as tiring as you like. I guarantee you most brothers would not marry a woman who has been in a physical active with a previous boyfriend. Mark my words sister, that is a fact. Why do you think so many go to india/pakistan/bangladesh to get married? Because a lot of the potential wives here have messed up pasts, and no guy wants to marry such a woman. <Sorry Mujy *ruffles his hair* guess the virus attacking me is attacking me brains too.> You Patronising me? And dont ruffle my hair >:( I aint a baby. The good news though, is that the younger generaltion of muslims girls are not as messed up as the older ones, they are avoiding the mistakes thier older sisters etc made, and are avoiding all that boyfriend nonsense. Its clear to see. I just wish i was born 5 to 10 years later, that way i would have had a much wider choice of potential brides, instead of mostly sisters with dodgy pasts. But no matter, if i dont find a sister with a good past here in the UK, i'll just go to india to find my bride. ;-) |
| Re: Would you lie if asked? |
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| Caraj |
| 03/26/02 at 14:16:05 |
| Guess who????? Lil' Bro you and I need to talk. I can't till tonight so will post phen. I've lots to say and to bring to your attention as insight from a woman with a past. :o Careful Mujy you may overlook at diamond and end up with fools gold Cause fools gold is shiny and looks good and fools most A diamond in the rough doesn't look like much till it is polished and worked with. More later Bro |
| Re: Would you lie if asked? |
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| BroHanif |
| 03/26/02 at 18:27:17 |
| [slm] [quote]I guarantee you, 100% of Muslim men would refuse to marry a girl who was not a virgin!! [/quote] Hmm, somebody does not know enough married men or has just made a very naive statement! [quote]The good news though, is that the younger generaltion of muslims girls are not as messed up as the older ones, they are avoiding the mistakes thier older sisters etc made,...[/quote] Dream on man, you don't see what I see on the streets of Yorkshire. [quote]Why do you think so many go to india/pakistan/bangladesh to get married? [/quote] Who said partners in other parts of the world have not dated or have a tainted past. Bro Mujy I think you really need to understand Sis UmmWafis post. If you concentrate too much on virginity you may lose out on some other values. Straight question: Which is better a person who is a virgin and disobedient to Allah or a person who is not a virgin, but loves Allah dearly ? [quote]That said, I don't know about the rest of ya, but I find this would-one's-past-matter-in-a-marriage issue rather tiring. It smacks too much of a holier than thou attitude[/quote] Couldn't agree more. Salaams Hanif |
| Re: Would you lie if asked? |
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| Khathija |
| 03/26/02 at 20:47:09 |
| [slm] I have been reading this thread for a couple days and I began to wonder what I would do put in the scenerio Br mujaahid made up. I don't think I would feel comfortable disclosing my past with a prospective husband. Maybe because in life, a guy could be wild when he is "young", and most people would say "he's young, when he gets older he become better, he'll change." Then he gets married, whether it be to someone form "back home" or someone from his comunity, but most likely never disclosing his past. But a if girl becomes emotionaly attached to one brother then it's the end of the world. She's a disgrace to the family, the honor and reputation of the family is ruined....maybe this is a little extreme, but i've seen it happen. It's not that I wouldn't want to tell him about my past, I guess it would make a difference on how it was brought up. The two most important thing for any type of relationship to work two things to be present: trust and honesty. There has to be a certain level of trust before disclosing anything to anyone, whether it be a friend or a fiancee. |
| Re: Would you lie if asked? |
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| nouha |
| 03/26/02 at 22:30:11 |
| [slm] to answer mujahids question -- after reading eevryones posts about how its not good to tell, and how some sheikhs say its wrong, if i did have a past, i would keep my mouth shut, but alhumdulilah im pure, ive never had a"past" -- kissing dating etc ummwafi -- i like your post, i do beleiev that virginity is more than a piece of skin, its a deep feeling, im about to get graphic here so if u dont want to read just skip until i say salam....but i need to make a point men cant really determine whether a girl is a virgin or not unless she tells him, when women excersice the hymen becomes weak and naturally falls out, so if you end up marryign someone who works out at the gym, and then wonder why on the wedding night some red fluid didnt come out, dont divorce her the next day thinking she is not a virgin. ive seen at least one marriage break becuase of this, traditionally back home, the mother in law of the bride checks the sheets after the wedding nigth. so when this mother in law saw nothing she accused her of not bieng a virgin and all, the poor girl wasnt able to convince her that she never did anythign she even spoke to a gynacologist. but it didnt help....:( just a sad story i wanted to bring up, it seemed reletive to this issue. [wlm] nouha:) |
| Re: Would you lie if asked? |
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| Anonymous |
| 03/27/02 at 00:21:55 |
| Salaam As far as I know a person is not meant to reveal their sins, it is upto the person enquring about marriage to find out for themselves as much as they can about their future spouses character. These are also from www.islam-qa.com but seem to give a different opinion. http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=21566&dgn=3 Question: Although it may not be respectful, is there anything wrong in asking a future wife-to-be whether she is a virgin or not? Answer: Praise be to Allaah. If there is some doubt concerning a (future) wife’s chastity, then you have the right to find out, but if you do not have any doubts, there is no need for this, because it may generate hatred and enmity, and be a reason for a lack of peace of mind. Shaykh ‘Abd al-Kareem al-Khudayr. (www.islam-qa.com) |
| Re: Would you lie if asked? |
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| Anonymous |
| 03/27/02 at 00:22:21 |
| Brother mujaahid I do not wish to offend or sound rude, but I am forced to be blunt - your statement about 100% of Muslim men not wishing to marry a non-virgin is incredibly naive and to say it is a gross misuse of your authority to speak is an understatement. Since when do you know how all the men in the world would feel on this issue, and how can you possibly forward such a statement? I know many brothers, myself included, who would marry a non-virgin - where do we fit into this "100% of Muslim men would not marry a non-virgin" world view of yours? That is a ludicrous statement, with all due respect. Secondly with regards having a history, being "touched" etc, I would think the honour and dignity with which Islam has bestowed on the woman, virgin or non-virgin, makes any discussion of her being "touched" previously by another man immature and irrelevant if that was in the past, and a matter between her and her Lord only - as it should be, and as some people on this thread have provided evidence to show. I have done things which I have sought forgiveness for, from the bottom of my heart - I am getting married soon, insha Allah, and anything before is in the past, I am dedicated to her 101% as from the moment I propposed and she accepted, and if she has a past or not I will love her with all the might and power Allah bestows on me. Because, regardless of her past, from then on she will be MY wife and me HER husband, insha Allah, and that is all that counts. wa salam |
| Re: Would you lie if asked? |
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| WhatDFish |
| 03/27/02 at 01:58:56 |
| [slm] ~~~~~~~~~~~~ Careful Mujy you may overlook at diamond and end up with fools gold Cause fools gold is shiny and looks good and fools most . A diamond in the rough doesn't look like much till it is polished and worked with. ~~~~~~~~~~~~ nice one CaraJ bro Mujaahid, it all depends on what u can accept and what u cant. so its unfair to generalise all men. also have u heard of repentance?? so what is the problem, even if she has had a tainted or chequered past . . . .what matters is what a person is now. ~~~~~~~~~ >:( I aint a baby . . . :-/ :-/ :-/ ~~~~~~~~~~ anyhow i believe in being in having an open relationship. so i have no worries with sharing the past etc. i would prefer my wife or wife to be to tell me. |
| Re: Would you lie if asked? |
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| Tesseract |
| 03/27/02 at 05:09:56 |
| [slm] I may be wrong in my opinion but I am in agreement with bro. Mujahid except this part : [quote]. I guarantee you, 100% of Muslim men would refuse to marry a girl who was not a virgin[/quote]. :) Wallahu 'Alam! [quote]If a man marries a virgin, but it becomes apparent to him at the time of consummation that she is not in fact a virgin because of an immoral act that she committed in the past, he has the right to take back the mahr (dowry) that he had given her and to divorce her[/quote] Why has this right been given to him? Makes some sense to me, but again its my opinion, I dont know how do others think of this particular statement. If a brother who has been born/raised in US/UK and keeps himself clean and chaste his whole life, then why doesn't he deserve the right to marry a chaste/virgin. Marrying a sister with past but who has repented is obviously difficult to accept, and I repeat that it is "difficult to accept " (meaning, not impossible) because how can one be sure that she has really repented or not. I dont see this as an issue of virginity/hymen-torn during exercise/whatever only, I for my sake, can live with it, but what really matters is that somebody who have had a past will be worrisome for me as regards the up-bringing of my next generation i-e raising up of my children as "strong Muslims". It may be possible though, but its probably very rare to expect and then really see that a sister with a past not only repents but then makes her children real strong Muslims as well. Things do not change overnight in most cases. Personalities/upbringing/environment/friends do matter in the growing-up of a person as a strong human being and as a Muslim as well, and then transfering those teachings/learned acts to ur next generation isn't an easy job as well. So "past" really does matter. If I have a past and I am going to get married to a chaste/virgin sister, then in my opinion, she deserves every right to ask me anything about my past and I consider it an obligation upon me not to mislead her, but to tell her the truth in any case, irrespective of whether I have repented or not. Its simply her right and I cannot take it away. Things should be on equal basis for me and her, and this is what bro. mujahid's point is here, probably, if I didn't take anything wrong. Wallahu 'Alam. Wassalam. |
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| se7en |
| 03/27/02 at 08:10:41 |
| as salaamu alaykum, Here is a discussion from the old board that y'all might find interesting: [url]http://www.jannah.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl/YaBB.pl?board=sisters&action=display&num=3578[/url] wasalaam :-) |
| 03/27/02 at 08:13:33 |
| se7en |
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| Kathy |
| 03/27/02 at 08:32:57 |
| [slm] All good conversations. I do think that making absolute statements are in error- because there are always exceptions. Everyone is talking about the woman's virginity- Sisters- What about the man's? Do you ([i] or did you before marrying[/i]) think or ask about it? If he had been with a girl in college or highschool- how would it affect you? On this other side I think I would be bothered by it- in a subconcious level- even tho Islamically knowing that the past is the past. |
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| Aabidah |
| 03/27/02 at 08:40:25 |
| [slm] Being honest and truthful about anything in life is one of the characeristics of a good Muslim. No matter how our past is we should always be honest about it. B/c we have no one to fear except Allah, and if Allah covers our past sins, then like Qurat said, it's a blessing, and we have no right to take that away. If the bro does not like a sister with a past, then that means they weren't meant for each other and it's a way of Allah showing us His plan, that the sis and bro will go their separate ways. If I was in a situation like that, no matter how much i liked the bro, i would still let him know of my past, if he insists on it so much. And I don't see how the bro can be tricked (it can happen, but rarely) b/c the bro will go through the parents, bro's and sis' of the girl, friends, and other close ppl to find out more about the sis and s/thing is bound to be said of her past, and he will just inquire about it. May Allah protect us all from making the wrong choices and keep us guided on the straight path. Ameen. [wlm] Betul |
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| UmmWafi |
| 03/27/02 at 13:12:03 |
| [wlm] [quote author=mujaahid link=board=sis;num=1017065117;start=15#18 date=03/26/02 at 13:32:41] Ehem, dont wish to sound crude, but i think the rest of humanity would think otherwise.[/quote] The rest of humanity ? Which rest are u talking about ? Or are u assuming the role of the supreme mouthpiece of the whole of poepledom ? Because let me tell you BRO Mujaahid, your definition of virginity ain't the only accepted version. If at all. [quote]Yes, if she has not consumated the marriage. If she has, then she is not a virgin, how can she be! COme on Sister, dont play this card please!![/quote] Can I ask u a question ? Do u honestly think u have the whole world and life figured out ? Do u honestly think that your deductions, inductions, inferences and presuppositions are sufficient to decide on a matter, especially, mind you, something as delicate as a woman's virginity. Which I assume u would have no experience or first hand knowledge thereof ? [quote]I guarantee you, 100% of Muslim men would refuse to marry a girl who was not a virgin!! If she was married previously, thats different. I'm talking about unmarried none virgins.[/quote] Bingo. Your guarantee card just expired BRO. A local religious brother I know just married a revert who was in a cohabitative relationship previously. BTW if u were abt to argue that this case is different because of the girl's religion etc, save your breath because your whole post is on this fixation with past and virginity, regardless. Period. [quote]But if he asked YOU if you had a past, and you refused to Answer, then he would probably get up and say "thanks for your time, good luck in finding a husband" and walk out! [/quote] Then I would say good riddance to bad rubbish for the nerve of that guy. One should say that if he makes a habit of asking this question, then the table MIGHT be turned and he might need all the luck in getting a wife. A good one. [quote]Go and tell that to all the brothers whose wives have run off with previous boyfriends. I guarantee, most brothers will not wanna risk it.[/quote] Well goodness me. I must have mistaken the matter. Only NON VIRGINS run off after a marriage. Virgins on the other hand stay true forever and ever. Well well....and here I thought all along that its the person's CHARACTER and IMAN that determine his/her faithfulness in marriage. Why didn't someone educate me on this ? Barr ? [quote] You find it as tiring as you like. I guarantee you most brothers would not marry a woman who has been in a physical active with a previous boyfriend. Mark my words sister, that is a fact. [/quote] Again, your guarantee card expired BRO. Look outside your personal ..emm..ahh..convictions and you would be surprised. [quote]You Patronising me? And dont ruffle my hair >:( I aint a baby.[/quote] Nau'uzubillah. It wasn't my intention to patronise, rather a misplaced gesture to show that we are still brothers and sisters. My sincerest apologies for the unwanted act. Sis Kathy To answer your question sincerely and honestly, if I know a brother had had a sexual relationship in the past but has now repented and is capable of guiding me in the path to Allah, yes I would accept him totally. His past is his sin with Allah, not with me. To be doubly honest, I wouldn't let his past bother me that much because we don't own our spouses, we are just entrusted to them by Allah. If our union is blessed till we meet again in the heaven of Allah, then Insya'Allah, we will be together, regardless. That said, I think, personally, I would rather have someone who committed the sin of the flesh in the past out of ignorance rather than have a clean brother who would make marriage a living hell. Wallahualam bissawab. Insya'Allah this is my last take on this issue. My apologies for taking up your time. Wassalam. |
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| mujaahid |
| 03/27/02 at 13:37:45 |
| [quote] The rest of humanity ? Which rest are u talking about ? Or are u assuming the role of the supreme mouthpiece of the whole of poepledom ? Because let me tell you BRO Mujaahid, your definition of virginity ain't the only accepted version. If at all. [/quote] Listen i dont CARE what your perception of virginity is, the fact is that Islaamically, a girl looses her virginity when she has consensual penetrative sex for the first time. That is the Islaamic View, the one of the great Prophet Muhammed (Saw), and THAT sister, is enough for me. I dont buy the other Pshycho babble nonsense when it comes to virginity, ie. She still FEELS a virgin! WHAT is that nonsense? Where do you get that from? Feminists Anonymous? :D [quote] Do u honestly think u have the whole world and life figured out ? Do u honestly think that your deductions, inductions, inferences and presuppositions are sufficient to decide on a matter, especially, mind you, something as delicate as a woman's virginity. Which I assume u would have no experience or first hand knowledge thereof ? [/quote] I never claimed any of the above. All i said is i would not wanna marry a girl who has had a past, i was not the one who bought virgity into it, YOU did. [quote] Bingo. Your guarantee card just expired BRO. A local religious brother I know just married a revert who was in a cohabitative relationship previously. BTW if u were abt to argue that this case is different because of the girl's religion etc, save your breath because your whole post is on this fixation with past and virginity, regardless. Period. [/quote] NO, it aint period, because that is one of the exeptions. A nonmuslim, western girl is doing nothing wrong if she has boyfriends etc because its part of her culture, its part of the way she was bought up, its part of her lifestyle, so to hold it against her would be STOOPID! As soon as they take the Shahada, ALL is forgiven, all their past is forgiven and for me that is enough. Understand? [quote] Then I would say good riddance to bad rubbish for the nerve of that guy. [/quote] why must you insult the brother for having his own views? Has he harmed you in any way? If he turned a girl down for that reason, maybe its because he feels he would not be happy being with someone with a past, has he therefore done anything for protecting his own happiness? Why the need to refer to him as rubbish? He may not refer to the sister as rubbish, he may simply say to himself "she has a past, so she is not the one for me" without uttering a single abuse word to her! [quote] One should say that if he makes a habit of asking this question, then the table MIGHT be turned and he might need all the luck in getting a wife. A good one. [/quote] no, he will find a wife who he feels suitable. he may limit his choice, but as long as he finds someone he personally feels is suitable, then i dont see why that is a problem. [quote] Well goodness me. I must have mistaken the matter. Only NON VIRGINS run off after a marriage. Virgins on the other hand stay true forever and ever. Well well....and here I thought all along that its the person's CHARACTER and IMAN that determine his/her faithfulness in marriage. [/qoute] did i ONCE mention virginity in regards to women running off? Did i? If so, then show me. If not, then please stop putting words into my mouth. I simply said a lot of women who run off, run of with past boyfriends. [quote] Again, your guarantee card expired BRO. Look outside your personal ..emm..ahh..convictions and you would be surprised. [/quote] Ask all the bros who go abroad to get married, WHY they do it, i assure you, nearly all will say the girls here have bad pasts and are messed up. That is not an insult to the women, that is simply what a lot of brothers think. The same applies to sisters, a lot who go abroad do so because they a lot of guys here have bad pasts, and although sisters are more tolerant to guys pasts, a lot prefer to have guys with decent pasts. [quote] Nau'uzubillah. It wasn't my intention to patronise, rather a misplaced gesture to show that we are still brothers and sisters. My sincerest apologies for the unwanted act. [/quote] Apology Accepted. Would you like a drink Sister [] [quote] That said, I think, personally, I would rather have someone who committed the sin of the flesh in the past out of ignorance rather than have a clean brother who would make marriage a living hell. Wallahualam bissawab. [/quote] Why do you seem to have it in for bro's who have had a good past? And why is this such a sensitive issue for you? |
| 03/28/02 at 09:26:20 |
| mujaahid |
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| Caraj |
| 03/27/02 at 15:31:50 |
| Mujaahid, Not all of us have had the luxuary nor the pleasure of living such a blemish free life that we can demand perfection of those around us. I know you're not going to like this and I do not mean it in a disrespectful way, but in a way that I have lived on this earth almost twice as long as you. It's called experience. You (hopefully) will look at things differently in 10 and again even more differently in 20 yrs. I was a sort of critical, judgemental person in my early 20's. Most are (not all) Now I have a son in his 20's and he things everything is all cut and dried. No in between. I pray God/Allah will show and teach you compassion and mercy, I will equally pray you are a fast learner and that he is able to teach you in a mild manor. Cause I fear the tougher student you are the tougher the lessons will be. I pray your heart will be softened and you learn your lessons at a low price. This is a prayer I have done for my own sons also. |
| 03/27/02 at 15:33:29 |
| Caraj |
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| Kathy |
| 03/28/02 at 10:46:17 |
| [slm] I just recieved this message from a respected Muslim: [i]"I'd like to suggest that the "Would you lie" thread be locked. I don't see any point of it going on, it's just getting personal. "[/i] I love debates- especially from all different generations. I especially like seeing the different views between men and women and between cultures. This subject is beginning to go over the line- into personal "attacks." Can we be a little more careful? Just remember one person does not speak for the entire group. As of now both "sides" have very valued opinions. So I will let the topic go unlocked- unless it takes a worse turn. :-) |
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| Aneesa_A. |
| 03/28/02 at 11:13:52 |
| [slm] Mujaahid, I would just like to point out to you, and i think a brother did mention this point, that, you cannot generalise and say girls back home are more chaste and pure than those that live in Western society. In fact, a lot of women "back home" do have pasts, they are just less open about it & keep quiet about it and forget about it after it happens. Besides, you can easily go abroad to find your bride, but she can be lying to you when says she didnt have a past, when she did. How would you know what the truth is? It is a rather sweeping statement when you make this point, because there are lots of girls out there in the West that remain pure and chaste, and like everyone here has said, that if she repented, its between her and Allah. Btw, what is your defination of a "past"? Is it when a girl goes too far in an unlawful relationship ie. loses her virginity? Or is it when she goes out with a guy just for fun, ie. just "going out" no physical thing happening? What exactly do you mean? Would you consider marrying a girl that was a virgin but went quite far physically with someone? Also, a girl could easily lie/or had decided to forget it and tell you that shes never been with a guy before, but in fact went quite far with him but not to the extent of losing her virginity...how would you know what she has done? [wlm] |
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| mujaahid |
| 03/28/02 at 11:44:11 |
| Qurat i am simply referring to girls who go out with boys on dates etc, why cant they have fun with other girls? Why the need to go out with boys? Why the need for boyfriends? That to me is enough. Once you start getting into how far she went, your already going way beyond where i wanna go. As for girls abroad, yes many are bad, i have heard enough stories, but generally they are a lot better then the ones in the west. If i did go to india, i would only marry a girl who went to an islaamic Girls school, and thier are plenty, especially in the Gujarat region. Kathy, i apologise for any personal comments i may have made. But i will be disspointed if you lock this thread, you can't simply reach for the Lock key as soon as things get heated. Your job is to keep the discussions at an acceptable level, not kill them. Locking threads kills discussions completely. |
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| Kathy |
| 03/28/02 at 12:15:01 |
| [quote author=mujaahid link=board=sis;num=1017065117;start=30#35 date=03/28/02 at 11:44:11]Kathy,... i will be disspointed if you lock this thread, you can't simply reach for the Lock key as soon as things get heated. Your job is to keep the discussions at an acceptable level, not kill them. Locking threads kills discussions completely. [/quote] [slm] Absolutely- I agree. That is why I didn't. What you are saying is hitting a nerve. What I find interesting is that (with an execption of 1) no girl/woman is addressing my question. Mujaahid- I wish when I was growing up into my teen years, I read read alot of your comments. It may have had an impact in the way I saw life. So many of our young are bombarded with messages of sex everyday- that we become numb- or think that it is ok because everyone is involved (at least we think this- because the media has put sex into every thing- to sell) For example- my sister gave me a glamour magazine, the other day. I haven't looked at one in years. Oh my! In every add- the models looked like they were posing for Playboy! I wonder if the general public see this- or have they become numb? I don't think it is the subject that needs to be locked. It is the style of writing. No personal attacks- just this is how I feel and why- and then drop it. I find it amuzing that now this topic has gotten into questions of definitions. Reminds me of the Bill and Monica fiascal. That is not is not what is important in this discussion- what is important is following Sunnah. |
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| Aneesa_A. |
| 03/28/02 at 12:17:15 |
| [slm] OKay, thats all i wanted to know :) So, you wouldnt consider marrying someone who has been out with a guy and who has been honest to you about it? [wlm] |
| 03/28/02 at 12:23:00 |
| Aneesa_A. |
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| Caraj |
| 03/28/02 at 12:44:10 |
| Ok here's my reply to the actual/main question. NO I WOULD NOT LIE ... tell you why sisters, if a man cannot accept you for you, past, present and future then in my opinion he doesn't deserve you. My husband and I met and emailed each other on the internet over a year before we met. Before we laid eyes on each other we already knew each others past, present and hopes, dreams, goals and opinions on things. When we started discussing a future together I went in full steam ahead mode. I told him EVERYTHING and I do mean EVERYTHING. I never wanted anything in the future to come up and bite us in the :o (backsides ;D) I went so far as to start getting on his nerves ;D he finally said.... I Love You and you're not getting rid of me that easy. (ok and all the sisters say awwwwwwwwwwwwwwww :) how sweet ) Anyway Sisters, tell everything, spill your guts out then finish with (tell the man) .... I asked Allah's forgiveness, then I forgave myself, it is dead and in the past. If this bothers you then go away, if not it is never to be brought up or thrown in my face in the future understand??????? And then get his feelings, thoughts and have him commit to how he feels about it. And if he says ... " well we will just deal with it" ... that is not a good sign, there is nothing to deal with cause if you asked Allah's forgiveness and then forgave yourself then IT IS DEALT WITH right? If you washed your car and did it right the first time are you going to go out 5 minutes later and wash it all over again?????? No cause you DEALT WITH IT See...... I dealt with it ........past I am dealing with it ...... present We will deal with it........ future .......... LOOK OUT :o So if you hear, "we'll deal with it" RUN, Run like the wind :P I am always hearing "In Allah's timing" well if the guy is so blemish free then do yourselves both a favor and leave him to find a blemish free women. And remeber your marriage (or future marriage) should be a place of comfort, joy, peace and safety. Your spouse should be one you can go to about ANYTHING and EVERYTHING and be able to do so without fear of rejection or critisizim. It is meant to be a relationship like no other. One thing I will tell you, if it bugs him now I guarentee you it will bug him more later, no matter what he says. Things that cause an inkling (small discomfort) actually only get bigger when you have to eat, sleep and live with them full time. Spill your guts so nothing comes back at you, a mans reaction to this is a good sign of how he will handle it after marriage when they are more possesive. |
| 03/28/02 at 12:52:37 |
| Caraj |
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| Aneesa_A. |
| 03/28/02 at 12:59:04 |
| [slm] "I went so far as to start getting on his nerves he finally said.... I Love You and you're not getting rid of me that easy. " yup..the sisters DO say awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww :-X I do agree with Caraj, its good to be honest and open right from the beginning!! [wlm] |
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| mujaahid |
| 03/28/02 at 13:40:50 |
| [slm] "you wouldnt consider marrying someone who has been out with a guy and who has been honest to you about it?" It depends, did she just go bowling, or to the cinema, and for how long? few weeks? Why? Because a few friends pushed her into it? If that was the case, then yes i would not have a problem with that. Where i would draw the line is if it got physical, even holding hands is too much in my opinion. Thats how i feel, others may feel different. But this only applies to girls who grew up as muslims. For converts, its different, because the rule,s the family pressures etc they grew up under are a lot different to what most muslims would grow up under. |
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| princess |
| 03/28/02 at 14:04:49 |
| walikumas'salaam warahmatullah ;D [quote author=mujaahid link=board=sis;num=1017065117;start=0#12 date=03/26/02 at 07:06:40] But how do we know they have/havnt repented? How many muslim women are practising? How many WANT to be practising?[/quote] that whole statement just bothers me >:( i find it baqwaas :) trust in Allah..trust urself..and go with it..:) u "know" because she tells u she's repented..that should be enough.. ::) how do u "know" ur brother prays when u aren't there? how do u "know" someone didn't pay interest on their new car? a lot of muslim women r practicing.. (what kinda question is that anyways? ::)) why WOULDN'T someone wanna be practicing? ??? this question doesn't even make sense :) and if they didn't "care" to be practicing, u wouldn't be approaching them anyways ;) |
| 03/28/02 at 14:06:02 |
| princess |
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| BroHanif |
| 03/28/02 at 18:49:08 |
| [slm] [quote]For example- my sister gave me a glamour magazine, the other day. I haven't looked at one in years. Oh my! In every add- the models looked like they were posing for Playboy! I wonder if the general public see this- or have they become numb[/quote] Yep I see this as well, you think that is bad, well let me tell you this one. The other day I saw an ad and it was for a Childrens TV programme. It had the advert lines of for example, 'Jack is confused he dosen't know which is better a date with [some girl] or being loyal to his pet dog, guess how old was Jack, aged 5!. It was going to be aired on Nickelodeon TV as well, yeah thats right the kids channel. And as for the mags well....they've got naked women in PC mags selling CD writers, Graphic cards and laptops. Sadly,its just life..as the old saying goes 'Sex Sells'. Salaams Hanif |
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| Marcie |
| 03/28/02 at 20:27:43 |
| [color=Teal] [slm] [quote]Sisters- What about the man's? Do you ( or did you before marrying) think or ask about it? If he had been with a girl in college or highschool- how would it affect you? [/quote] In answer to your question, Kathy, I would not care about his past. For me the most important thing is that he be practicing the religion. In my book there really is nothing more important than that. I have made too many mistakes in my own life to be worrying about someone else's mistakes. :( [wlm] Marcie :-) [/color] |
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| Kashif |
| 03/29/02 at 12:37:32 |
| [quote author=mujaahid link=board=sis;num=1017065117;start=30#40 date=03/28/02 at 13:40:50]But this only applies to girls who grew up as muslims. For converts, its different, because the rule,s the family pressures etc they grew up under are a lot different to what most muslims would grow up under. [/quote] assalaamu alaikum I don't buy this at all, and i think its bordering on having double standards. The environment for Muslim children and non-Muslim children isn't as dissimilar as you perhaps suggest. And i actually believe the environment has a GREATER impact on the attitude of the child then the parents. Both Muslim and non-Muslim children attend the same schools, have similar friends, live in the same society, watch the same TV & movies, listen to the same type of music (regardless of whether they're listening to Celine Dion or Asha Bhosle - cos the message in the songs is quite similar) so why the great surprise if they turn out similar? You know as well as i do what Muslim parents in the West can be like: you know that too often physically they are living in London, but mentally they are still living in their gaoun back in Pakistan .. and it can quite easily be argued that English parents have a much greater understanding of the issues their children face then say Pakistani or Indian parents. Kashif Wa Salaam |
| NS |
| 03/29/02 at 12:41:43 |
| Kashif |
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| pakiprncess |
| 03/29/02 at 17:06:26 |
| [quote author=Marcie link=board=sis;num=1017065117;start=30#43 date=03/28/02 at 20:27:43][color=Teal] I have made too many mistakes in my own life to be worrying about someone else's mistakes. [/quote] you said it, sister! in answer to the original question, i wouldnt lie because as said earlier, its better to be honest about things from the get go...i wouldnt want any problems down the line. but if he isnt gonna ask me...why should i tell? :P yah, like princess, i find it baqwaas to worry about the past and what hes really thinking and why...if i made a mistake, then so be it. Allah (SWT) is the only one to judge me, and if he wants to even tryyyy to take on that duty, well then...he will wonder why he ever bothered :P i would only ask him if i felt it necessary, based on his reputation or attitude towards other girls. but if i even had to question him, i doubt he would be in the running anyways. btw...thanks for making me laugh, you guys...even tho the board gets heated at times, it sure is worth it..hehe ps..go, bro mujaahid for speaking your mind :) i admire your bluntness, man |
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| eleanor |
| 03/30/02 at 19:18:11 |
| [slm] [quote author=Kashif link=board=sis;num=1017065117;start=30#44 date=03/29/02 at 12:37:32] and it can quite easily be argued that English parents have a much greater understanding of the issues their children face then say Pakistani or Indian parents. [/quote] I agree. Children with immigrant parents have a very tough time, because their parents expect them to behave exactly as they would if they were growing up "back home"..yet the things they are faced with on a daily basis are so much different. As I was growing up, I knew many girls whose parents were quite strict with them and knew loads of people who weren't allowed to sleepover at someone else's house etc.. Luckily for me I was more interested in sport while at school and college and I slid into Islam relatively unscathed. The fact that I went to girls only schools helped too somewhat. And to join in on Kathy and Bro.Hanif's posts I'd just like to add that the six o'clock news here in Germany has their weather section sponsored by a sun-studio...so the opening title and closing title for the weather has a naked woman rolling around with the name of the sun-studio going across her waist- - apart from that everything is on display... Britain and the US are bad, but Germany is just plain sick. wasalaam eleanor |
| NS |
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