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| How do i respond? |
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| Maliha |
| 03/28/02 at 09:48:19 |
| [slm] I was trying to do dawah to someone who is really into sufi philosophy and thought. The conversation was long..but in essence the latest argument focused on the relationship of the Creator to the created. According to my friend, the Creator is ALL, the created is Nothing. Going with this argument, Al Hallaj's comment "I am GOD" or "I am The Truth", is the most servile position one could take in relation to Allah. The explanation goes further to say, that "I am a servant of Allah, presumes two existences; while "I am God" verifies that only Allah exists. Kinda warped huh? It got a little murky for me, so i need some suggestions on how best to respond. Jazakumu Allahu Khayran, Maliha :-) [wlm] |
| Re: How do i respond? |
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| M.F. |
| 03/28/02 at 10:25:07 |
| Assalamu alaikum, It sounds like the very basis of the argument here is false. How can they say that the created is "nothing"? Allah created nothing? That makes no sense. Who does Allah address in the Qur'an if we're nothing? The creator is all? Why would He need anyone to worship him of that were the case? That's my simple understanding of it. I don't understand philosophy very well but whatever this person's saying sounds like shirk to me. Islam is very clear on what our Aqeeda is, and anyone who says that they're God is a mushrik, clear and simple. |
| Re: How do i respond? |
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| UmmWafi |
| 03/28/02 at 10:58:44 |
| [slm] Dear :-) Maliha Insya'Allah, I will try my best to assist you. Sufism is a very complicated yet astoundingly beautiful aspect of Islaam. It is intricate because it deals not only with the obvious, it also deals with the ascetic and mystic. Its very difficult for someone to just pick up a book on Sufi thought and read it and at the end of it all say he has known all he needs to know about Sufi thought. The Sufis are very particular about receiving education and training under the proper pir for they hold fast to the maxim that learning without a master is to make Syaitan the master. As one traverse the Path or make suluk, one's level of knowledge and faith will also elevate correspondently. That is why some Sufi masters reach a stage where they say things which may seem to be blasphemous for us. The sheikh Bayazid Bastami used to go around and say I have God in my pocket how great I am. BTW, Al Hallaj, is a follower of the Bayazidiyah form of Sufism. Al Hallaj, is very closely connected to the Karmitist who are in turn very closely related to Ismailism and that is a very extreme form of Shi'ism. The moderate Shiites believe in the Twelvers while the hardliners believe in the Seveners. Al Hallaj was hanged in Baghdad, the first sheikh to be killed by a Caliph. The hardline Shiites which Al Hallaj is closely connected to believe that the Imam is inspired by God and thus by that inspiration the Imam is infallible in all ways. Al Hallaj is also notorious for saying that there is no need to perform the Hajj. He made a mock up of the Kaabah in the market area and said that his followers can do pilgrim there. the branch of Sufism that is opposed to the Bayazid branch is one that is headed by Al Junaydi who believed that there must be reconciliation between Sufi thought and Syariah. Now what he is saying is going back to the roots cos Sufism must start from Syariah cos Syariah is the first knowledge imparted to the murid. I know it has been a bit woozy since I first type, but here is the next part. In Sufism there are levels which u must aspire to. In the Sufi Hierarchy of Orders, the Sheikh is top of the hierarchy but then they move on to another hierarchy called the Sufi Hierarchy of Sainthood where sheikh is at the lowest rung. He must aspire to be the Wali followed by the qutb and finally the qutb al madaar, that is the Pole of the Universe. The sheikh who claims to be Al Wasilun will be the one who is supposedly the one who receives Divine vision etc. Many people who do not know Sufi thought would label Sufis as shirik or even anti-Syarie but their conclusion is formulated after a long arduous journey of knowledge. To answer your friend, advise him that Sufism starts with Syariah. If he cannot even comprehend Syariah then how could he even be arrogant enough to assume he can comprehend Al Hallaj ? If he is interested in Sufi thought then he must undertake the suluk and all suluk begins with the basics before moving on to the abstract. You might even ask him this. Before he even talk about his existence in relation to the Oneness with God or the Moment with God, ask him what is his proper place in the order of creation ? He has to be careful sister because back in the days when Sufism is a disciplined school of thought, the sheikh is always at hand so that the murid does not go berserk or go astray. Wallahualam bissawab. Afwan if my convoluted post confused u more. I wish I can be more helpful but this is one instance where the written medium restricts and the oral medium would be better. May Allah forgive me for any wrongs I have committed in my post, Amin. |
| 03/28/02 at 11:03:16 |
| UmmWafi |
| Re: How do i respond? |
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| khanzadeh |
| 03/29/02 at 05:56:02 |
| [slm] Here is a good article on tassawuf (no, mentioning the T word does not make me a sufi). http://66.34.131.5/ISLAM/misc/shafiqur.htm Anyways, tassawuf has roots (only) in islam and not vice versa, i.e., one can live without ever understanding the T word and be among the believers by strictly following the shariah. The same thing is NOT true the other way round. I hope I said it right. |
| NS |
| Re: How do i respond? |
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| humble_muslim |
| 03/29/02 at 09:43:34 |
| [slm] UmmWafi, Would you please bring forth the Shariah proof for the hierarchy you are talking about ? |
| NS |
| Re: How do i respond? |
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| Maliha |
| 03/29/02 at 15:24:59 |
| [slm] yeah i am a little confused ::) but i guess i should know, its not smart to be involved in discourses we know little about :( Anywayz, shukran for trying UmmWaffi, M.F, and everyone else. :) Maliha :-) [wlm] |
| 03/30/02 at 14:50:23 |
| Maliha |
| Re: How do i respond? |
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| WhatDFish |
| 03/30/02 at 03:20:07 |
| [slm] there is very little of authentic sufism left, that was in the past, what remains of sufism today brings you away from the sunnah. Islaam is plain and clear, there isnt a need to delve into the esoteric matters. those scholars reached that level because of their eeman and `ilm. and what is goin on today is the lay man on the street tryin to grasp the understanding the great men had when they lack the basic knowledge of the Deen. |
| Re: How do i respond? |
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| UmmWafi |
| 04/02/02 at 09:56:28 |
| [slm] My sincerest apologies for the late replies. I am still not well. Afwan. [quote]Would you please bring forth the Shariah proof for the hierarchy you are talking about ?[/quote] I said that Sufi thoughts and doctrines are grounded on the Syariah. The hierarchies are part of the Sufi social institutions, and they have many of those, I might add. The hierarchies themselves are not quoted anywhere in the Syariah but the methodologies and ideologies of the hierarchies might have Syariah foundations, wallahualam bissawab. Wassalam |
| NS |
| Re: How do i respond? |
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| UmmWafi |
| 04/02/02 at 10:10:59 |
| Wa'alaikumsalam wr wb [quote]there is very little of authentic sufism left, that was in the past, what remains of sufism today brings you away from the sunnah.[/quote] There is a whole world of difference between popular Sufism and Higher Sufism. We have to be careful of what claims we make. Na'udzubillah, we should be very very careful when making generalisations so as to avoid being unfair. I am personally in contact with 2 practising Sufis. They are really intelligent and wise people who, most importantly, are men of adab. Knowing these men, it saddens me to great extreme that someone would actually imply that they are going away or deviating from the Sunnah. If truth be known, their thoughts, conduct and words reflect a faithful following of the Sunnah. [quote]Islaam is plain and clear, there isnt a need to delve into the esoteric matters. those scholars reached that level because of their eeman and `ilm. and what is goin on today is the lay man on the street tryin to grasp the understanding the great men had when they lack the basic knowledge of the Deen.[/quote] Tassawuf is indeed an extremely difficult subject but that does not mean we should stay away from it just cos its tough. When we have the knowledge and the imaan for it, by all means, embark on tassawuf. It would allow us to know Allah SWT on a higher plane than before. BTW that was the point I was making to Sis Maliha in my original post. There are just too many people who wanna jump into trigonometry when they cannot even add or minus. Wallahualam bissawab. |
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