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Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| Can God make a stone... |
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| Anonymous |
| 04/01/02 at 00:08:07 |
| Please ! Attention All Muslims Solve my Proble Give me answer of this Qustion ? Can a GOD make a Stone which he can't move ? and rember we belive on That God can do every thing Please Email me at with Answer zurcon_ibm@yahoo.com Abid Khaleel From Pakistan |
| Re: Can God make a stone... |
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| Kashif |
| 04/01/02 at 02:11:10 |
| assalaamu alaikum This is a false question from the beginning, for everything that God creates is by NECESSITY under his complete control, and something that depends on God for its own existence in totality. And just to comment on what M.F. says below, these really are absurd questions. Another one i've heard is: "Can God create a 4-sided triangle?" ????? What's the point of asking/thinking over nonsense questions like this? Kashif Wa Salaam |
| NS |
| 04/01/02 at 05:49:12 |
| Kashif |
| Re: Can God make a stone... |
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| M.F. |
| 04/01/02 at 04:46:06 |
| Assalamu alaikum This is a question that disbelievers (not that I'm saying anyone here's a disbeliever) have asked believers since.... I don't know when. It's a nonsensical and absurd question and it's obviously from the shaytan. I would be ashamed and afraid to ask this question knowing that God is watching and it's insulting to Allah the Creator and the All-Powerful. A3udhu billah. |
| Re: Can God make a stone... |
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| momineqbal |
| 04/01/02 at 13:54:06 |
| [slm], If this question comes in the mind of a muslim he should say "Audhu Billahi Mina-Shaitanir Rajeem". I think there is a hadith regarding this as well, if someone can search and post it, it will be good inshaAllah. Allah doesn't do a thing that will diminish Himself ever! Far exalted is He above His creation! |
| Re: Can God make a stone... |
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| se7en |
| 04/01/02 at 15:34:15 |
as salaamu alaykum, I remember Nazia commenting on this question on the old board.. she did an excellent job of breaking it down and tearing it apart.. I think she said something about how this question is sort of a double negative..? I'll try to find the link.. Nazia if you're out there, give us what ya got :) wasalaamu alaykum :-) |
| Re: Can God make a stone... |
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| Mentallect |
| 04/01/02 at 21:38:42 |
| Not to be a jerk but it seems a couple of the replies in here equates to: I dunno. Thats okay, but it isn't really answering the question and gives me the impression the Anonymous poster isnt welcomed to asking the question in the first place. Which is disconcerting. Theres nothing wrong with not knowing how to answer the question. |
| Re: Can God make a stone... |
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| bhaloo |
| 04/01/02 at 21:47:44 |
| [slm] Metallect is right, that the question should be addressed. This is the typical ATHEIST question that they ask. This question is flawed from the beginning. You are trying to apply the laws of this world, laws which Allah created to Himself. How can you apply laws and rules which Allah created to Himself? Let me give you an example to illustrate my point. Lets say I create this game where anyone that stays inside the circle is a winner, and anyone that is outside of it, has lost. After the game if someone comes up to me and says that I have lost, I would say those rules don't apply as it only applied to this game. In fact during the game I can change the rules to be anything I want them to be. So you see, the question doesn't really make any sense, does it? |
| Re: Can God make a stone... |
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| ali |
| 04/02/02 at 00:36:26 |
salam alaykum, This argument is a complete fallacy. As per the philosophical Law of Contradiction, A thing cannot be true and false simultaneously. By applying this Law, we can easily see the fallacy: The argument goes something like this: (1) God is All-Powerful. (2) Since God is All-Powerful, can He create a stone? This challenges God’s attribute that indicates He has power over all things. So the answer would be ‘Yes’ regardless of the remainder of the argument. (3) God should be incapable of lifting the stone. Next, they set a condition on the stone – that it should go against one of God’s attribute. This is like claiming ‘God is All-Powerful, except when it comes to lifting this stone.’ Since this premise contradicts the non-conditional premise (1), the argument is deemed invalid. walaykum as salam, - Ali |
| NS |
| Re: Can God make a stone... |
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| nouha |
| 04/02/02 at 00:40:21 |
| [slm] anon -- as muslims we beleive that Allah(SWT) or God can make and create anythign He(SWT) and do anythign HE(SWT) wants. so the concept of questioning if Allah(SWT) CANT do something is out of the question, and is even haram (a sin). again anon you may not beleive this and agree to this as you have the rigth to, but you asked muslims so this is what we beleive, alhumdulilah May Allah(SWT) forgive me if i said anything wrong, or offended anybody [wlm] nouha:) |
| Re: Can God make a stone... |
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| jannah |
| 04/02/02 at 01:19:57 |
| [slm] This reminds me of a story we learned about at the conference. Imam Shafii debated with another shaikh and they argued back and forth until finally Imam Shafii was declared the winner. The eminent and knowledgable shaikh then said he lost another debate. How? He had debated with a layperson and no matter what he said, the other said "nuh-uh, i don't believe that"... so how can you argue with such a layperson that doesn't even accept anything. Whatever you say they won't believe it, they don't have any principles to start out with, they don't have any valid arguments to discuss ----- and that is why this question is not applicable in islam :) |
| 04/02/02 at 01:21:30 |
| jannah |
| Re: Can God make a stone... |
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| Anonymous |
| 04/02/02 at 01:42:44 |
| [i]The following is a general refutation for this genre of questions[/i] Is Omnipotence Logically Impossible? by Bill Ramey A common argument against theism runs like this: 1. If God is omnipotent, then He can do anything. 2. Therefore, God can create a rock so heavy that He cannot lift it. 3. But if He cannot lift it, then He is not omnipotent (because that is one thing He cannot do). 4. And If He cannot create such a rock, then He is likewise not omnipotent. 5. Therefore, God cannot be omnipotent. The argument poses a dilemma and suggests that there is no way out, except by limiting God's power. The key premises are 1, 2, and 4. The first premise defines omnipotence as the ability to do anything. I will say more about this definition shortly, but for now, its key difficulty is its vagueness. The second premise is the argument's main problem. It asks us to pit God's omnipotent ability to create rocks against His omnipotent ability to lift rocks. But no matter how heavy a rock God makes, God has the ability to lift. If God makes a 2-ton rock, God can lift a 2-ton rock. If God makes a 4-ton rock, God can lift a 4-ton rock. God can create a rock of any weight and still have the ability to lift it. Therefore, there is no such thing as a rock too heavy for God to lift. The existence of such a rock is itself a logical impossibility. Some object at this point that if God is omnipotent, the He ought to be able to create logical impossibilities. If He cannot, then He is not omnipotent. For example, some have made the following argument: (1) If God is omnipotent, then God can create a square circle. (2) God cannot create a square circle (according to theists). (3) Therefore, God is not omnipotent. Of course, premise (1) can refer to any logical paradox, e.g., rectangle triangles, rocks too heavy for God to lift, and so forth. In logical notation this argument takes the form: p -> q ~q ------ ~p This is a valid argument known as modus tollens, so we must turn to the soundness of its premises to see if the argument fails in any respect. I concur with premise (2), so premise (1) is the key premise to be analyzed. Premise (1) can actually be broken down into further premises: 1' God is omnipotent, according to theists. 2' Thus God can create or do anything. 3' A square circle is a thing. 4' Thus God can create a square circle. Note that this is an attempt to draw a conclusion from the premises of theism; thus if theists do not actually accept these premises, the attempt at a reduction ad absurdum of theism fails. The only possible objection left is that by rejecting one or more of the above premises, theists have compromised and weakened the concept of omnipotence. I will deal with this objection shortly, but for now let's look at the above premises. Theists would overwhelmingly agree with 1'. The problem begins with 2'. Is omnipotence defined as the ability to create or do anything? The answer is "no." When theists assert that God is omnipotent, they assert: 5' God is a maximally powerful being. This means that God is the most powerful being that can exist. He can do anything that can be done. But what about premise 3'? Can God create a square circle? To answer this question, let's analyze the proposition: 6' God can create a square circle. According to 5' God is a maximally powerful being, to be defined more fully shortly. According to the Second College Edition of the American Heritage Dictionary a square is a "rectangle having four equal sides" and a circle is a "plane curve everywhere equidistant from a given fixed point, the center." Thus 6' asserts: 7' A maximally powerful being can create a four equal-sided plane curve equidistant from its center. It is abundantly clear that by definition such a thing cannot exist; a square circle is an oxymoron. But if a square circle cannot exist, then it cannot be brought into existence, i.e., it cannot be created. Hence premise 7' fallaciously states: 8' God can create that which cannot be created. This is a contradiction; thus 4' above and (1) in the original argument are unsound premises, and the argument against the coherence of theism itself can be reduced to an absurdity. Moreover, 3' is plainly false; a square circle is not a thing, nor is it even a legitimate abstraction. Returning to 5', theists hold that God is a maximally powerful being. This means that God can do anything that can be done. God can create things which now exist, such as rocks, trees, people, planets, and stars; and He can create things which do not now exist, such as Martians--so long as their existence does not involve a contradiction. As mentioned earlier, one might want to object that 5' is a weakened definition of omniscience--but on what grounds? One might want to assert against 5' that there can be a being X that has the power of a maximally powerful being and the ability to create oxymorons and hence that such a being is more powerful than the one in 5' (because it can do everything He can do and more). But this strategy is question-begging; it simply reasserts premise 7', even though 7' is unsound. There can be no such being X that can create oxymorons, because oxymorons cannot be created. The overall error of the argument against the coherence of divine omnipotence is that it assumes: 9' If a Being cannot create that which cannot exist, then He is limited. But the statement "a Being cannot create that which cannot exist" is vacuous; it does not assert anything that is not evident by logical analysis, nor does it assert anything whatsoever about the nature of the Being. It is trivially true. But since it asserts nothing about the nature of God, then it fails to derive a contradiction from theistic premises and is itself reducible to an absurdity. In short, a Being cannot be faulted for not creating that which cannot exist, because that which cannot exist cannot be created. God does not [i]lack[/i] the ability to create that which cannot exist, because there is no such ability. To sum up, theists make two claims regarding the omnipotence of God: 10' God is a maximally powerful being. 11' That which cannot exist, cannot be created. No contradiction can be derived from these two assertions. The omnipotence of God has not been demonstrated to be a logical paradox; rather the argument against omnipotence itself has been demonstrated to rest on a logical absurdity. |
| Re: Can God make a stone... |
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| WhatDFish |
| 04/02/02 at 01:46:07 |
| [slm] Anonymous - do no entertain such questions for the atheist love askin such questions and they arent new. like can God create a stone soo large he cant move/lift? etc you can see from the beginning that this is ascribing absurdities to Allah. Allah is all Powerful and all Wise. and all Powerful means He can do anything and all Wise means the question just asked is out of logic. High is Allah above what they ascribe to Him. |
| Re: Can God make a stone... |
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| ascetic |
| 04/02/02 at 03:23:07 |
| Assalam Aleikum, I had a similar conversation with a colleague last week who raised a similar question and he seemed to be very satisfied with the explanation that I gave him. Back in school, my further maths teacher told us, what I thought was, a very cool refutation to such "paradox" theories. It relied on the fact, which Uthmaan stated, that Allah is All-Wise. He has knowledge of laws/rules that we cannot even comprehend (simply because we have not been taught as such from Allah) Hence, things that we might deem logical impossibilities might not actually be so. To prove his point, my teacher drew a 2D stick figure on a piece of paper and told us that this "man" has created a whole world of his in 2D space. He can walk around in his 2 dimensions and is living a happy life. Then my teacher proceeded to thrust his pencil in the middle of the paper. No matter what level of mastery of his 2D space the "man" has achieved, he cannot explain this phenomenon (of the pencil appearing out of "nowhere"). This applies to us as well. Allah is omnipotent and can create a 4-sided Triangle if he so wishes to. Right now, with our limited field of vision/understanding, we might not be able to comprehend what that looks like but He is perfectly capable of doing so. For example, try telling the 2D man that it's possible to have a cube! There's no way he can explain a cube with his 2D laws. However, unlike the 2D man we do believe in a lot of things we cannot logically explain. This is called Faith/Eeman and it is because we have been sent irrefutable proof in the form of thousands of messengers who have been confirming the same thing over and over again: La Ilaha Illal Allah. We only have the advantage of 1 more dimension and we already know so much more than the 2D man. Imagine the greatness of Allah who has created everything in all the worlds! Subhan'Allah. We cannot enumerate such greatness in our minds, we can only feel it in our hearts. I hope this made sense. It does to me :) Wassalam. |
| 04/02/02 at 03:26:00 |
| ascetic |
| Re: Can God make a stone... |
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| M.F. |
| 04/02/02 at 10:48:00 |
| [quote author=Mentallect link=board=madrasa;num=1017637687;start=0#5 date=04/01/02 at 21:38:42]Not to be a jerk but it seems a couple of the replies in here equates to: I dunno. Thats okay, but it isn't really answering the question and gives me the impression the Anonymous poster isnt welcomed to asking the question in the first place. Which is disconcerting. Theres nothing wrong with not knowing how to answer the question.[/quote] The answer is not "I dunno". The answer is: Allah can make anything that He wants to make, but this type of question is disrespectful to Allah ta'ala, and I personally don't think it should be posed or addressed. But that's just my opinion and ma sha Allah the people who addressed it know what they're saying :-) |
| 04/02/02 at 10:50:14 |
| M.F. |
| Re: Can God make a stone... |
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| Mentallect |
| 04/03/02 at 07:33:03 |
| [quote author=M.F. link=board=madrasa;num=1017637687;start=0#13 date=04/02/02 at 10:48:00] The answer is not "I dunno". The answer is: Allah can make anything that He wants to make, but this type of question is disrespectful to Allah ta'ala, and I personally don't think it should be posed or addressed. But that's just my opinion and ma sha Allah the people who addressed it know what they're saying :-)[/quote] How is that disrespectful? Its a question regarding the validity of Allah being all powerful, not that He and I have daily discussions but I suspect He is totally capable of withstanding questions. And since He provided us with intellect and curiosity, the ability to ask questions, and gasp, questions about Him don't strike me as out of line at all. Now if someone comes in here and slams Islam or Allah based on something profane, rauncy or false, thats a whole different issue. If a non Muslim came to you with that question, what would you do? Which do you think would be more productive, to: 1) Answer the question like the posters above. 2) Say you simply hadn't thought about it or don't know and try to help that person search for the answer, for their sake and your own. 3) Categorize the question as a kafir/atheist question or shut the person down for asking the question to begin with. The first two leave SOME room for that person to actually learn something, but for the third...what kind of Da'wah is that? The Angels asked Allah why He created man, with all are retarded tendencies and He more or less told them: I've got this covered, it doesnt concern you. (horrible paraphrase) He didnt smite them for questioning Him, and He loves us more than them. From that I deduce it isnt a bad or disrespectful thing. My mother grew up in a Christian household and when she was repremanded for asking why she didn't feel the Holy Ghost, it totally turned her off to the religion. |
| 04/03/02 at 07:53:09 |
| Mentallect |
| Re: Can God make a stone... |
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| se7en |
| 04/03/02 at 22:37:59 |
| as salaamu alaykum, Check out the thread with Nazia's response [url=http://www.jannah.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl/YaBB.pl?board=madrasa&action=display&num=3018]here[/url]. And another thread with some good responses to atheist questions is [url=http://www.jannah.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl/YaBB.pl?board=madrasa&action=display&num=4384&start=0]here[/url]. Have a good one y'all :) wasalaamu alaykum. |
| 04/03/02 at 22:39:55 |
| se7en |
| Re: Can God make a stone... |
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| Seeker |
| 04/04/02 at 11:24:18 |
| [slm] ok, so wait, humans decree whether Allah can lift a stone or not? If Allah wanted to lift a stone or for that matter, provide a way for a small army of about 300 to beat an army almost 7 times their size as in Badr, he will. Not by your command or by mine. The human race has no right to decide whether Allah can do this or that by way of elaborate thinking or "reason". As a piece of insight, human reason is FLAWED. Humans are flawed. We have to acknowleged that our own hawa, our "intellectual" inclinations are not valid on any subject. What are the first few ayats of the first of the *first* surah revealed?(coincidence isn't it?) Allah is commanding us to seek 'ilm! and basically to humble ourselves because Allah is the one who has provided faculties in which to seek 'ilm, to understand it, AND the 'ilm it self. I speak to myself, and then others, we have potential, let's use it. Oh yeah, another question, Allah can be the force holding all the planets together, every cell in your body, every molecule, every neucleus in an atom of water that comes down from the sky together, but not move something as stupid as a rock? So where would this rock be found? astaghfurallah, we should not entertain such Shaytanic ideas in our heads. It is very easy to get carried away. Phew! laa ilaha illaha. May Allah guide us all and protect us from the oh so sneaky tricks of the Shaytan. Ameen. ~Tauhirah |
| Re: Can God make a stone... |
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| Mentallect |
| 04/06/02 at 10:17:22 |
| [quote author=Seeker link=board=madrasa;num=1017637687;start=15#16 date=04/04/02 at 11:24:18] [slm] ok, so wait, humans decree whether Allah can lift a stone or not? If Allah wanted to lift a stone or for that matter, provide a way for a small army of about 300 to beat an army almost 7 times their size as in Badr, he will. Not by your command or by mine. The human race has no right to decide whether Allah can do this or that by way of elaborate thinking or "reason". As a piece of insight, human reason is FLAWED. Humans are flawed. We have to acknowleged that our own hawa, our "intellectual" inclinations are not valid on any subject. What are the first few ayats of the first of the *first* surah revealed?(coincidence isn't it?) Allah is commanding us to seek 'ilm! and basically to humble ourselves because Allah is the one who has provided faculties in which to seek 'ilm, to understand it, AND the 'ilm it self. I speak to myself, and then others, we have potential, let's use it. Oh yeah, another question, Allah can be the force holding all the planets together, every cell in your body, every molecule, every neucleus in an atom of water that comes down from the sky together, but not move something as stupid as a rock? So where would this rock be found? astaghfurallah, we should not entertain such Shaytanic ideas in our heads. It is very easy to get carried away. Phew! laa ilaha illaha. May Allah guide us all and protect us from the oh so sneaky tricks of the Shaytan. Ameen. ~Tauhirah[/quote] Why are people acting like this question is such an abomination? It has the weight of a feather and can be easy enough to break down into nothing rationally. Falsehood by its nature is bound to perish, thats a promise from Allah. The question is smoke and mirrors crap, but if people dont even entertain it to break it down into what it is, how in the world is it going to be recognized as such on a broad range basis? Also, to whom are you posing the question of anyone decreeing anything Allah does? Decree by definition is an authoritative order. Using that term alone suggests (if you're refering or talking indirectly to me) that you don't understand me at all or what I said. But I'm glad you replied because I'd like to ask you a question. If human understanding is flawed, how in the world do you know anything? If you're going to use that rationale or 'irrationale', whatever, how exactly do you know that what you think you know is even valid? Does that mean what you understand and posted above me is flawed too? I asked this question more or less before and have yet to get any complete discussion on this matter, maybe its a kafir question or some nonsense or another--who knows. |
| 04/06/02 at 10:20:05 |
| Mentallect |
| Re: Can God make a stone... |
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| Kashif |
| 04/06/02 at 18:19:23 |
| assalaamu alaikum I agree with Mentallect, i do think that this question has been treated a bit 'like an abomination' by some people, but i don't think it should be. Its a question that people are likely to face in the field so its good to learn an appropriate response to it, and alhumdulillah there have been a number of good responses posted earlier. The point of whether asking this question certainly isn't worth arguing over. Kashif Wa Salaam |
| NS |
| Re: Can God make a stone... |
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| Seeker |
| 04/07/02 at 01:08:31 |
| [slm] I'm apologize for making you, Mentallect, think that I was lashing out to you in anyway. My intention was not to target anyone. With this thread, I felt like I personally needed to respond because this question basically is one to falter someone in their deen, and the idea of that happeneing scares me. I've literally seen it happen how the use of reason misguides some people. To me, this question and some replies seem not to have the weight of a feather, but of something much heavier, in that it could totally change the way someone thinks or feels about Allah. I feel it's absurd to me because it has that power, (this is weird, I'm talking about a question as if it's something living..) and because of its power, I can't even entertain it in my mind. It's kind of as if Shaytan is whispering in your ear, and all you want to do is shut him out. But, I agree with you that because it will come up with other people, it definately needs to be broken down. Pertaining to human reason/understanding, if our reason is not flawed, it must be perfect, and our reason is certainly not perfect. No one has a perfect understanding of anything because there is always more knowlege to acquire about everything. Only Allah has perfect knowlege. Humans are so limited in their understanding of everything because we cannot see everthing, hear everything, feel everything. We know things but not to their fullest, thus being flawed in our understanding. For example, one may say thay know the Qur'an or they know everything about waves, or just a general "I know!" but in reality we're all struggleing with the mother of all diseases of the Qalb, arrogance. And there is always another dimension to everything that we do not see or know. I do think that what I know is not valid, and my pervious post...is not valid, (Phew that took a lot), but, I go around saying things that I have no knowlege of because I have flaws. You know, arrogance, uncontrolable tounge...very common in this day. Everything that I think I know is always missing something. I'm always complaining on how I only feel like I know the very thin surface dimension of understanding the Qur'an. I may not even know that.. Ok, I feel like I'm rambleing on about my flaws a bit too much, but they can never be too exposed. Peace. |
| 04/07/02 at 01:12:25 |
| Seeker |
| Re: Can God make a stone... |
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| Muslimah |
| 04/12/02 at 08:37:28 |
| salaam, might be a bit late for response, but Allah is the Almighty, Allah can do and create anything he wants, Allah has made a stone it is by his will that it will move and Allah can create anything and to say that he can't make a stone that he can't move it is totally inaccurate!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :o |
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