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Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| I need proof |
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| jaj |
| 04/01/02 at 00:22:39 |
| [slm] i need to know if it is true that when a child becomes 7 years of age, s/he becomes the property of the father. i need to know where in the Qur'an it says that if it does and i just dont know where to look. when i say "property", that is how it was said to me and what i mean is the child becomes solely the father's responsibility and if the parents are no longer together, the father keeps the child. this is very important to me. please help!!!!!! [wlm] jaj |
| Re: I need proof |
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| jaj |
| 04/01/02 at 00:48:30 |
| i've been searching all over the place in the Qur'an online.....and nowhere does it say anything about that.....i dont know where else to look that gives evidence that that's true....can anyone please help? jaj |
| Re: I need proof |
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| Kathy |
| 04/01/02 at 10:23:38 |
| [slm] Dear Jaj- I remember reading that somewhere too. I can not remember the source- but I remember how much it scared me. However, this morning, I could not find anything to support it. What I did find was from Islam Q&A: Question: After a marriage that lasted for a few years, a man divorced his wife and tried to take the child from her. She is asking who has more right to custody of the child, her or her ex-husband? Especially since she is going to travel to live with her family in another city. Answer: Praise be to Allaah. Women have more right to custody of children than men; in principle custody belongs to them, because they are more compassionate and more kind, and they know better how to raise small children, and they are more patient in dealing with the difficulties involved. The mother has more right to custody of her child, whether it is a boy or a girl, so long as she does not re-marry and so long as she meets the conditions of custody. This is according to scholarly consensus. The conditions of custody are: being accountable (i.e., an adult of sound mind etc.), being free (as opposed to being a slave), being of good character, being a Muslim if the child concerned is a Muslim, and being able to fulfil all obligations towards the child. The mother should not be married to a person who is a stranger (i.e., not related) to the child. If one of these conditions is not fulfilled and there is an impediment such as insanity or having remarried, etc., the woman forfeits the right to custody, but if that impediment is removed, then the right to custody is restored. But it is best to pay attention to the interests of the child, because his rights come first. The period of custody lasts until the age of discretion and independence, i.e., until the child is able to discern what is what and is independent in the sense that he can eat by himself, drink by himself, and clean himself after using the toilet, etc. When the child reaches this age, the period of custody ends, whether the child is a boy or a girl. That is usually at the age of seven or eight. With regard to the effect of travelling on transferring custody, if the parents have separated and are disputing custody, any of the following scenarios may apply to their travelling: 1 – If one of the parents wants to travel without moving, i.e., he or she intends to come back, then the parent who is staying put has more right to the child. 2 – If one of them wants to travel for the purpose of settling there, and the new city or the route is dangerous, then the parent who is staying put has more right to the child. 3 – If one of them wants to move and settle within the same city, and the city and the route is safe,the father has right to the child than the mother, regardless of whether the one who is moving is the father or the mother. 4 – If both parents want to travel to the same place, then the mother should retain custody. 5 – If the place is nearby so that the father and child may see one another every day, then the mother should retain custody. When the child reaches the age of independence, the period of custody comes to an end, and the period of kafaalah or sponsorship of the young begins, which lasts until the child reaches adolescence or in the case of a girls, starts her periods. Then the period of sponsorship ends and the child is free to make his own choices. Women’s rights to sponsor children. It appears from the comments of the fuqaha’ that women have the right to sponsor children in general, and that mothers and grandmothers in particular have this right. But the scholars differed as to who has more right to sponsorship if the parents are in dispute and are both qualified to sponsor the child. The Maalikis and Zaahiris think that the mother has more right to sponsorship of the child, whether it is a boy or a girl. The Hanbalis think that boys should be given a choice, but the father has more right in the case of a girl. The Hanafis think that the father has more right in the case of a boy and the mother has more right in the case of a girl. Perhaps the correct view is that the child should be given a choice if the parents are disputing and they both fulfil the conditions for sponsorship. From Wilaayat al-Mar’ah fi’l-Fiqh al-Islami, p. 692 (www.islam-qa.com) |
| Re: I need proof |
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| jaj |
| 04/01/02 at 23:40:33 |
| thank you Kathy the reason i posted this is because my ex husband wants me to send our 8 month old son to him. i am not going to and i will never give him to him no matter what. i dont trust that he will love him and not hurt him. even in the hospital as a few hour old baby, he yelled at my son to shut up when he was crying. he abused me, i don't trust him to not abuse my son. jaj |
| Re: I need proof |
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| Dawn |
| 04/02/02 at 08:52:08 |
| jaj, this is the same guy who wanted you to abort the child a year and a half ago? :o And the same guy who was physically abusing you and walked out on you? :o :o :o [quote] Perhaps the correct view is that the child should be given a choice if the parents are disputing and they both fulfil the conditions for sponsorship. [/quote] I am rather new to learning about Islam and haven't read anything that would specifically apply to this case (other than what Kathy so kindly posted above), but extending the "spirit of the law" from what I have learned, it seems to me highly likely that your ex would NOT fulfil the conditions for sponsorship, based upon his recent past record and his apparent continued harassment, albeit from a distance. And the mother in me says, I wouldn't let my child out of my sight if this person were around, much less surrender custody. Peace, Dawn |
| Re: I need proof |
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| UmmWafi |
| 04/02/02 at 10:37:22 |
| Dearest Sister A quick reply here. I am not sure abt the proof and all that but from my working experience with the Syariah court in Singapore, the custody of the child is always given to the mother unless : a) the child is of age and can determine who she/he wants to stay with b) it is proven that the mother is unfit to take care of the child c) the mother herself rejects custody If your husband is an abuser, please please, fight for your rights. My du'a for u. Wassalam. |
| Re: I need proof |
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| jaj |
| 04/02/02 at 21:20:43 |
| [slm] Dawn, yes that's the same guy. the one who kicked me out for refusing to have an abortion because he didnt want to raise children in the US. he tried to tell me that it was halal. now we have an 8 month old son. i'm planning on putting his name on a list where if anyone tries to take him out of the country, the police will be alerted. his father never finished and turned in the paternity affidavit so he is not listed as the legal father. i'm not even sure if he'll ever be allowed back in the country. i was questioned about him by the fbi. i plan to keep him away from my son. even if i get remarried, i wont give him my son. i truly do not trust him to not abuse him. he found it so easy to swear at me and insult me and abuse me that i wouldnt put it past him to do the same to my son. he says he could take better care of him since i am not working and just going to school. he is also just a student. his parents pay for everything for him, even the money i get for my son his father sends it. he lied to me. i asked him about the status of our divorce and he told me it was finished and i thanked him and then the other day he told me in an email that we are not divorced but he is giving me the freedom to choose that. so now i don't know what to make of that. he still treats me like crap. i said "i don't have time for bull" in an email to him and he came back swearing in his email and demanded an apology. so to keep the peace, i apologized but i asked for an apology for swearing. it took him 4 days to apologize and he said he didn't think he needed to. so i guess it's not okay for me to say "bull" but it's okay for him to swear. ??? UmmWafi, thank you for the input. I will definitely fight for my son. he is my life (along with the most important things in life: religion, etc) and i will fight for my life. i will do whatever it takes to make sure his father never gets to him. even if that means moving to another state or country. thank you sisters, i really appreciate you. :) [wlm] jaj |
| Re: I need proof |
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| Marcie |
| 04/02/02 at 21:58:08 |
| [slm] Sister, I'm begging you to please go and talk with an Imam about everything. This is so important. Please try and get other people to help you in case you ever might need them. [wlm] Marcie |
| Re: I need proof |
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| jaj |
| 04/03/02 at 00:51:51 |
| [slm] Marcie i replied to your instant message about this post :) [wlm] jaj |
| Re: I need proof |
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| M.F. |
| 04/03/02 at 04:41:36 |
| Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullah, Subhan Allah I just read something about this last week, here's what I found in Malik's Muwatta: Malik related to me that Yahya ibn Said said that he heard al-Qasim ibn Muhammad say, "A woman of the Ansar was married to Umar ibn al-Khattab. She bore Asim ibn Umar to him, and then he separated from her. Umar came to Quba and found his son Asim playing in the courtyard of the mosque. He took him by the arm and placed him before him on his mount. The grandmother of the child saw him and argued with Umar about the child so they went to Abu Bakr as-Siddiq. Umar said, 'My son.' The woman said, 'My son.' Abu Bakr said, 'Do not interfere between a child and its mother.' Umar did not repeat his words." Yahya said that he heard Malik say, "This is what I would have done in that situation." |
| Re: I need proof |
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| jaj |
| 04/07/02 at 19:57:06 |
| [slm] M.F., so his father isn't allowed to just come and take him right? is that what that means? jaj |
| Re: I need proof |
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| flyboy_nz |
| 04/20/02 at 12:21:47 |
| asalaamu alaikum, Sister jaj, please fight for your rights!! If I was where you are, I'd fight for you! For one, the ex-husband is a pathetic excuse for a bro...what on earth is wrong with the guy? He is abusive, ill-tempered and wanted an abortion! What kind of father would he make for a child? Check with the laws of the state to see whether he has any legal custody, but as you said he hasn't filled in the form. It would be best for you to learn about islam as best you can and raise the child with proper Islamic teachings. A child first learns in the lap of the mother. I'll make dua for you inshaAllah. wasalaam, Ahmed |
| Re: I need proof |
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| BroHanif |
| 04/21/02 at 06:52:11 |
| [slm], Sister Jaj, forget the jerk of the ex-husband, if your husband was really abusive to the extent that you can't bear the sigh of him even if his in Antartica and your in America I would disassociate with him in every means possible. One bad apple spolis the whole box, you don't want any of the abusive qualities of your ex rubbing on to your child. I'm sure your a good mom, keep it that way and have faith and sabr in Allah. I'm sure your within your rights to look after him, if some jerk shouted at the baby when it was just 4 hours old asking it to shut up, I'd get the social services involved, because no way can a turkey like that look after the child. If I saw the guy I'd have a few words with him...or maybe my fists would... salaams Hanif. |
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