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Jenin Massacre

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Jenin Massacre
imran
04/12/02 at 10:57:48
JERUSALEM, April 12 (IslamOnline & News Agencies) – The Israeli army admitted Friday, April 12, to murdering hundreds of Palestinians in the Jenin refugee camp, in what U.N. chief Kofi Annan described an “appalling” massacre.

With the soaring death toll still controversial, the Palestinian Authority asked for an international inquiry on Jenin and invited visiting U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell to inspect the camp for evidence of Israeli army brutality, Agence France-Presse (AFP) reported.

A senior army official told AFP under condition of anonymity that Israel "estimates the Palestinian losses at about 250 dead" in the camp, but the Palestinians put the death toll at a much higher estimate.

Palestinian Information Minister Yasser Abed Rabbo said this week that some reports indicated about 100 Palestinians were killed in the Jenin camp Saturday, April 6, alone. The Palestinians said 500 people were killed by the Israelis in the impoverished refugee camp.

With the battle over, Jenin Mayor Walid Abu Mweiss said Friday that the Israeli army was detaining "thousands of men, between the age of 15 and 50," in the town of Jenin.

An Israeli army spokesman denied there were any "mass" arrests in the area, but confirmed that security sweeps were continuing in the town of Jenin.

The Palestinians separately appealed to the United Nations to launch an international inquiry into what the Israelis had done in the refugee camp.

"We call on the United Nations to immediately create an international commission of inquiry on the Israeli massacres at Jenin because it is a U.N.-administered refugee camp," said senior Palestinian official Saeb Erakat.

He told AFP the Israeli army's acknowledgement that the Jenin fighting left heavy casualties was "an admission by the Israeli government of massacres against our people."

Witness reports of the Israelis demolishing Jenin homes while families cowered inside, then stripping and beating detainees before marching them off naked into nearby woods, have cast a shadow over Israel's argument that it was acting in self defense, said AFP.

The world finally got to see what Israel has done in Jenin: piles of rubble where homes once stood; gaping holes rent in the sides of buildings; electricity wires torn down and strewn amid the wreckage, water flooding out of broken mains and running down the broken streets. These scenes of devastation will haunt the mission of Colin Powell, who flew in Thursday.

Hundreds of Palestinians fled their camp Thursday, an empty, smoking ruin resounding to bursts of Israeli machine gun-fire. They left behind entire neighborhoods flattened to make way for Israeli armor who massacred indiscriminately elderly women and young boys and girls. Those spared drank sewage water and live with rotting corpses of Palestinian civilians.

The operation began with rocketing from helicopter gun-ships and bulldozers moved in to finish the job.

Palestinians said they witnessed the execution and the dumping of at least 150 Palestinians, who were killed in “the concentration camp” by the Israeli occupation army.

Resistance leader in Jenin, Sheikh Gamal Abul Heiga, confirmed that following the fall of the refugee camp Wednesday morning in the hands of the Israelis, the occupation army then publicly started executing a large number of Palestinian youth.

Palestinian detainees tell horrific tales of their treatment by the Israelis. One said he was forced to strip naked and act as a human shield, standing with an Israeli soldier behind him resting his gun on his shoulder. Another said when he asked for a drink the soldiers forced a stick into his mouth. Then, he said, they brought him water that tasted of urine.

The Israeli army has encircled the camp with tanks, and shot at, or arrested, journalists approaching the area. The accounts of the killing of civilians and the massive destruction of civilian homes suggest a grave abuse of human rights.

Ali Mustafa Abu Siria, 43, an Arabic teacher, was carried to hospital on a ladder - nursing a gunshot wound to the left knee that had gone untreated for four days. Doctors said it was badly infected. He was injured while serving as a human shield for an Israeli army patrol, who led him out of his home handcuffed and at gunpoint on Friday.

Doctors at Al-Razi hospital in Jenin said a man bled to death on its doorstep after Israeli soldiers prevented medics from retrieving his body.

At dusk on Thursday, the refugee camp was hit by 10 explosions in the space of an hour.

A new wave of refugees streamed out of the camp - including many children - scavenging for food. A few hours earlier, Riyad Ghalib Damaj, 28, a produce seller, also smuggled himself out with a group of women and children fleeing the camp.

"There are no houses left in the refugee camp; there is only a highway. There are countless numbers of houses destroyed. If you see them you will go crazy," he said.
Re: Jenin Massacre
mujaahid
04/13/02 at 03:13:07
[slm]

Jihad is the only answer, military Jihad.

Talking will not solve this. Negotiations and sanctions will not solve this.

Jihad will. But only in time, not immediatly. The muslims are too weak in thier faith at the moment to be able to launch a successful Jihad against a military superpower in Palestine. Build on your faith, train yourself in military warfare, stamina, firearms training, but never neglect the islaamic duties, and everything, inshallah will fall into place.

Look at the israeli's, they all have big beards, have that twist in thier hair, wear those little caps, they follow thier religion. Yet look at the palestinians, how many actually keep a beard? How many palestinian women dont even look like muslims (makeup, hair all done up, western cloths etc)?

The suffering of the palestinians is a punishment from Allah. Only turning to Allah will change that.
Re: Jenin Massacre
jannah
04/13/02 at 14:22:25
[quote] The suffering of the palestinians is a punishment from Allah.[/quote]

You know this for sure do you?

Whenever a trial is brought to a people it [i]could[/i] be a punishment, but it could also be a test for them.  Perhaps it is a test for the entire ummah or a punishment for all of us, and those in palestine who just defend their homes and their childrens will be given all the reward while we nothing.

[quote]no beards, makeup, hair all done up, western cloths etc[/quote]
I'd have to say that is the majority of the Muslim world.

04/13/02 at 14:24:08
jannah
Re: Jenin Massacre
Shahida
04/16/02 at 07:27:13
[quote author=mujaahid link=board=ummah;num=1018623469;start=0#1 date=04/13/02 at 03:13:07] [slm]

Look at the israeli's, they all have big beards, have that twist in thier hair, wear those little caps, they follow thier religion. Yet look at the palestinians, how many actually keep a beard? How many palestinian women dont even look like muslims (makeup, hair all done up, western cloths etc)?

The suffering of the palestinians is a punishment from Allah. Only turning to Allah will change that. [/quote]

let me get this straight...u say the suffering of the Palestinians is their own fault for not having beards and wearing make-up?  ???  So they are being PUNISHED for this?  

Mujahid, dont make me  :'(!  It could be a punishment, like Jannah said, but I feel it is more of a trial for ALL of us, and let me just tell you, that they are PASSING the test, offering all they have and all they are for Islam, while we sit back and watch...who is going to get punished for that?

and btw, if not having a beard and wearing make-up deserves such "punishment" from Allah, then I shudder to think what the rest of the Muslim world is still going to face...

get a grip on things, and think about what you have just said
>:(
Wasalam
Shahida
Re: Jenin Massacre
ltcorpest2
04/16/02 at 19:54:57
i used to have a beard, but i got married,  wife didnt like.  i am just not a fighter.  can you give me the verse where it says you must have a beard in the quran, so i could look it up,  is that a requirement? or is it opinion?
Re: Jenin Massacre
amatullah
04/16/02 at 22:11:19
Ha'aretz             Tuesday, April 16, 2002 Iyyar 4, 5762
                                                           Israel Time:
08:32 (GMT+3)

                       Last update - 16:03 16/04/2002

                     Report from Jenin: voices heard under the rubble

                     By Amira Haas, Ha'aretz Correspondent

                     JENIN REFUGEE CAMP - Two weeks after
                     IDF forces began the attack on the Jenin
                     refugee camp and five days after the military
                     took control of the camp, Jenin residents
                     were searching for bodies under the ruins,
                     and instead of dead bodies they were
                     finding live ones. Residents of the camp
                     roaming throughout the ruins, the burned
                     houses and the bullet-ridden buildings, said
                     that voices heard a day earlier were no
                     longer heard today.

                     Residents of the camp were searching for
                     their relatives and neighbors. They do not
                     know which were killed, injured, arrested or
                     are alive. Approximately half of the
                     population that was in the camp before the
                     IDF invasion is there now.

                     Around 2 P.M. on Monday, Jenin residents,
                     assuming they would only find dead bodies
                     under the ruins, were shocked to hear the
                     voice of a young man whispering from beneath the
ruins, "Help me. Help me."
                     Residents of the camp quickly began to remove
cement boulders and blocks of
                     wood with their bare hands. They managed to reach
the trapped man and
                     removed him from the ruins, bringing him to a
nearby house. The young man,
                     apparently a member of the Al-Aqsa Martyrs'
Brigade, had also sustained
                     shrapnel wounds to his neck. It appears that the
house he was trapped under
                     had been hit by IDF missiles and was later
demolished by an IDF bulldozer.

                     Up until Monday afternoon, IDF forces, the Red
Crescent and the Red Cross
                     were cooperating in the removal of the injured and
dead from the Jenin camp.
                     The operation was halted after it became known
that equipment the IDF brought
                     to rescue the injured from underneath the ruins
was unsuitable to ensure the
                     safety of the injured and a fear from explosive
devices left behind.

                     Red Cross officials told Ha'aretz that they met
with senior IDF officers and it was
                     agreed that the removal of the dead was the IDF's
responsibility. IDF forces
                     were to resume attempts Tuesday to rescue the
injured and remove the dead.
                     The military said they would notify the Red Cross
of any findings so that Red
                     Cross ambulances can remove the injured and dead
from the camp where Red
                     Crescent representatives can help to identify the
injured and the bodies, inform
                     families and arrange for medical attention or
burial.

                     Women, children and the elderly were walking
throughout the camp, entering
                     buildings without fear of explosive devices, a
fact that contradicts what the
                     military told journalists - the army had said that
jouranlists could not enter the
                     camp because of explosive devices still there.

                     Ha'aretz was informed Monday that the explosive
devices placed in the camp,
                     intended for IDF tanks and soldiers, are detonated
by hand and therefore no
                     longer pose a risk.

                     Residents whose homes were totally destroyed, roam
the ruins during the day
                     and spend the night with relatives and neighbors
whose homes remain intact or
                     were only partially ruined. It is difficult for
people to leave the camp since IDF
                     forces remain stationed nearby and occasionally
enter the camp.

                     Palestinians reported that the hospital, located
at the camp's entrance, is also
                     difficult to reach because an IDF tank is
stationed there, which according to
                     Palestinian claims opens fire at anyone who
approaches the hospital. It is also
                     impossible to bring medication or blood units from
the hospital to treat the
                     injured in the camp.

                     Camp residents have no working telephone, water or
electricity. Already at the
                     start of the invasion the water pipes in the camp
were damaged by IDF tanks
                     maneuvering throughout the Jenin streets. Lack of
water is apparent on the dry
                     lips of the inhabitants and in their reddened
eyes.

                     The IDF refused a request from UNWRA (United
Nations Relief and Works
                     Agency) to transfer water and food to the refugees
Monday. UNWRA director
                     Richard Cook told Ha'aretz that since the
beginning of the IDF's military
                     operation in the camp, the organization has been
unable to deliver medical or
                     food supplies to the camp's inhabitants due to the
army's refusal.

                     Nabil Shaath demands probe into Jenin 'massacre'
                     Reuters
                     NICOSIA - Palestinian cabinet minister, Nabil
Shaath demanded an inquiry on
                     Tuesday into allegations that IDF troops massacred
Palestinians in the Jenin
                     refugee camp.

                     According to Palestinian eyewitness accounts,
Shaath said, close to 500 Jenin
                     residents were killed as Israeli forces swept
through the town, including "at
                     least" 60 to 70 who were summarily executed.

                     "The Israeli army took six days to complete its
massacre in Jenin and six days
                     to clean it up... there is a crime here demanding
an immediate investigation," he
                     said.

                     Israel says around 70 Palestinian militants were
killed in the camp in fighting
                     with its security forces.
Re: Jenin Massacre
amatullah
04/16/02 at 22:19:48
Bismillah and salam,

As muslims we would not even know how to pray if it wasn't for the prophet saws since it isn't "mentioned" clearly in a verse in the Quran. The prophet saws showed us and lived the Quran. He had a beard. To me, that should be enough to do it too to get the rewards of loving him more than anyone else even our spouse and ourselves. All his companions had them.

Here are some fatwas:
What is Islam’s views on growing a beard?  
Name of Mufti Yousif Ali Qardawi  
Content of Reply Albukhari narrated from Ib’n Omar that the Prophet PBUH said “distinguish yourselves from non-believers, grow your beards, and shave your mustaches.” The Prophets’hadith stated the reason to distinguish Muslims from non-Muslims. The non-believers here are the Persians –fire worshipers- who used to shave their beards. The Prophet PBUH wanted to teach Muslims to be distinguished in their appearance, and their behavior. Besides, shaving the beard carries the meaning of revolting against the essence of man, and an imitation to women. Thus beard is a sign of maturity and manhood. Growing the beard not to trim it and let grow in width or length does not mean it; what is meant is that its ok to take some of its width, and length by trimming it as the righteous predecessors used to do.

I would say most of Muslims nowadays shave their beards in an imitation to the enemies of there religion as well as in an imitation to colonizers as a sign of imitation of the defeated to the triumphant being the Christians and the Jews ignoring the instructions of their prophet who said “whoever imitates a people, he is one of them.” Many scholars made it unlawful –Haram- to shave the beard based on the prophets PBUH reasoning, thus it is mandatory to grow the beard. It was not narrated ever about the righteous companions, and Salaf –predecessors- ignored this matter. Some contemporary scholars made it lawful to shave the beard under the pressure of current conditions. They further stated that growing a beard by the prophet was a normal action but not a ritual action. In reality, the prophets insistence on growing the beard did not come form his action but his deliberate insistence on the signs of distinction between Muslims and non-Muslims. Ib’n Timyah stated that being different from non-believers what the prophet meant and the imitation to them would lead to companionship, loyalty, and internal love to non-believers, and the internal love leads to external love, and this has been proven right nowadays. Ib’n Timyah proceeded to say that the Qur’an and the Sunnah in many places and on many occasions reiterated the importance of being distinctive from non-believers due to the fact that imitating them would also leads to behavioral imitation a matter that is prohibited Islamically.

Based on the above mentioned, we see thap there are three views on growing the beard: first, shaving the beard is unlawful, that is Ib’n Timyah’s view. Second: Not acceptable, that is Ayad’s view, and the Third one that see no problem with shaving the beard and deem it as lawful. This is the view of many contemporary scholars. It seems to me that the closest of these three views is the one that deems shaving the beard as not acceptable, Makrouh, that is the order of being distinguished from non-believers does not seems to be a clear cut rule although its rational was distinguishing from non-believers. The closest example to this is coloring the gray hair with henna as a mark of distinction to Christians and Jews, although some Muslims did not color their hair meaning it’s acceptable.

Re: Jenin Massacre
bismilla
04/17/02 at 04:09:23
[slm]  

[img]http://www.iol.co.za/data/mastheads//mast_3.gif[/img]

[u]Rubble, dust and rotting bodies everywhere[/u]

April 15 2002 at 11:42PM - By Phil Reeves (The Star - South Africa)

Jenin - A monstrous war crime that Israel has tried to cover up for a fortnight has finally been exposed.

Its armed forces have flattened the centre of the Jenin refugee camp, reached on Monday by the Independent Foreign Service.

A residential area the size of at least five soccer pitches has been reduced to rubble and dust. It has been flattened like a nuclear wasteland.

We could not see the bodies; but we could smell them
The sweet and ghastly reek of rotting bodies is everywhere, evidence that it is a human tomb.

The residents, who spent days hiding in basements as the rockets pounded in, say there are hundreds of corpses entombed under a dust-field now crisscrossed with tank and bulldozer track marks.

In one half-wrecked building, gutted by fire, lay the corpse of a man covered by a rug. In another we found the remains of a man who, we were told, was buried beneath the ruins of a fire-blackened room that collapsed on him after being hit by a rocket. In a third lay five long-dead men.

A quiet, sad-looking young man led us across the wasteland, littered now with detritus of what were once households - torn clothes, shoes, tin cans, children's toys.

He suddenly stopped. This was a mass grave, he said, pointing.

It was about ethnic hatred and brute revenge
We stood and stared at a mound.

It was here, he said, that he saw Israeli soldiers pile up 30 bodies beneath a half-wrecked house. When the pile was complete, they bulldozed the building, bringing its ruins down on the bodies. They proceeded to flatten the area with a tank. We could not see the bodies; but we could smell them.

A few days ago, we might not have believed his account. But the descriptions given by the many refugees who escaped from Jenin camp were understated - not, as many feared and Israel encouraged us to believe, exaggerations.

Their stories had not prepared me for what I saw; I believe them now.

Until two weeks ago there were several hundred tightly packed homes in this suburb. They simply no longer exist.

Around the ruins there are many hundreds of half-wrecked homes. Much of the camp, once home to 15 000 Palestinian refugees, is falling down.

Every wall is speckled and torn with bullet holes and shrapnel, testimony of the Cobra and Apache helicopters that hovered over the camp, randomly spraying their machinegun fire.

Building after building has been torn in half, their contents spewing out into the road.

Every other building bears the giant, charred bite-mark of a helicopter missile.

On Monday night there were many families with children still living amid the ruins, cut off from humanitarian aid.

Ominously, we found no wounded.

Those who did not flee the camp or were not rounded up by the army have spent the bombardment hiding in their basements, enduring day after day of terror.

Some were forced into rooms by soldiers who smashed their way into houses through the walls.

According to the UN agency for Palestinian refugees, UNWRA, half of the camp's 15 000 residents were under 18. As the evening hush fell over these killing fields, we could suddenly hear the children chattering.

The mosques, once so noisy at prayer time, were utterly silent.

Wandering through this carnage, the systematic and deliberate act of savagery by a government and army that is out of control, it was impossible not to remember the lies told by Israel's government in the massive international propaganda campaign launched in the past fortnight to lessen the impact of what has now, finally, emerged.

Was it only a few days ago that Mark Sofer, an Israeli government spokesperson, was telling the audience of BBC World TV that "not one single civilian" had been targeted, and that such a suggestion was "unthinkable" to the government of Ariel Sharon?

Nor could one forget that only a few days ago, US Secretary of State Colin Powell had stood laughing next to Sharon before the world's TV cameras, calling him his "good, personal friend".

Israel was still trying to conceal these scenes on Monday. It had refused entry to ambulances of the International Committee of the Red Cross for nearly a week, in violation of the Geneva Convention.

On Monday it continued to try to keep us out.

Jenin, which lies on a plain in the northern end of the occupied West Bank, remained "a closed military zone". It was ringed by tanks, army jeep patrols and armoured personnel carriers.

Reporters caught trying to get in were escorted out of the area by the army. A day earlier the Israeli armed forces took in a few, selected journalists to see sanitised parts of the camp.

In the end, we walked across the fields, flitted through an olive grove overlooked by two Israeli tanks, and into the camp itself.

We were led in by the hands at the windows. Hidden, whispering people were waving us on through the narrow alleyways which they thought were clear. When there were soldiers about, we would see a raised warning finger, or a hand waving us back.

And there were Israeli soldiers on the ground - three scared-looking infantrymen in a doorway - and several tanks stationed by the central mosque.

Armoured personnel carriers roared through what were once alleys, but are now 30m-wide thoroughfares.

The camp did contain many militants and armed men, some of whom were responsible for attacks on Israel across the nearby 1967 Green Line, some of whom died fighting to defend their homes from a rampaging army.

The camp was the scene of the worst battles of the Intifada, in which 23 Israeli soldiers died. But this destruction, launched in the aftermath of the wicked Passover suicide bombing, was a massive act of deadly collective punishment against a civilian population.

It was about ethnic hatred and brute revenge. Not only does it fail to end the terror attacks, it guarantees that attacks by Palestinians on Israel will continue. - Independent Foreign Service


[u][url=http://www.iol.co.za/general/services/keyword_search.php?set_id=15&click_id=566&do_search=yes&result_start=1&result_range=20]More Artciles[/url][/u]
Re: Jenin Massacre
mujaahid
04/17/02 at 04:39:23
[slm]

SHAHIDA

"let me get this straight...u say the suffering of the Palestinians is their own fault for not having beards and wearing make-up?    So they are being PUNISHED for this?"

Its a punihsment from Allah for neglecting Islaam.  

"Mujahid, dont make me "

I have no intention of making you laugh.

"and let me just tell you, that they are PASSING the test, offering all they have and all they are for Islam"

Are they? Are they really passing the test? How? With Suicide bombings against innocent civilians? By being massacred by the Israeli's? Is that your idea of passing a test?

"and btw, if not having a beard and wearing make-up deserves such "punishment" from Allah, then I shudder to think what the rest of the Muslim world is still going to face... "

wake up, WAKE UP! Bosnia, look what happened to the muslims. Kosovo, look what happened to them. Iraq, look what happened to them. Kashmir, look whats happend to them. India (gujarat) look whats happened to them. Rwanda, look at what happened to them!!

Wake up sister, look at these people when this suffered genocide, you will see they neglected islaam. And they have suffered because of it.

I dont know the exact ayat from the Quran, but it goes along the lines of if you neglect your religion, and turn away from Allah, you will receive a severe punishment from Allah on this Dunya. And whats happening now is the consequence of our own neglect.

"get a grip on things"

No, YOU get a grip on things. Before letting your emotions run wild, actually see what islaam has to say about the current suffering. Its their, all thier, in the Hadith, in the Quran.

"and think about what you have just said"

Why dont YOU think about what i said, properly?  

You tell me Shahida, why do you think we're suffering the way we are? Because we're good muslims? Because the muslims of the world are strong? Because we are on the Deen? Is that why we're being punished?
 
Re: Jenin Massacre
Shahida
04/17/02 at 07:29:48
Instead of dignifying Mujaahid's post with a personal reply, i decided to search for some relevant fatawa that would be useful for all of us inshaAllah.  I have learned that arguing with a brick-wall yields nothing.  Verily Allah guides whom He pleases, and verily He leaves others whom He pleases without guidance...

[slm]

Here then the Fatawa...mostly from Islam Online

*******
[color=red][Fatwa on Suicide bombing removed. See Constitution.- Admin.][/color]
04/18/02 at 23:47:05
jannah
Re: Jenin Massacre
struggling
04/17/02 at 17:25:27
[slm]

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=286197

Evidence of atrocities by Israeli troops in Jenin refugee camp grew yesterday when a British pathologist said he found "highly suspicious" wounds during the first autopsy on a victim.

Derrick Pounder, professor of forensic medicine at Dundee University, who is working with Amnesty International, visited the ruined camp and said: "Claims that a large number of civilians died and are under the rubble are highly credible.It is not believable that only a few people have been killed, given the reports we have that a large number of people were inside three and four-storey buildings when they were demolished."

The autopsy on the 38-year-old Palestinian revealed that "he was either shot in the foot, and then in the back, or shot in the back first – receiving a fatal wound – and his corpse was for some reason shot in the foot," he said. "Whichever order the shots occurred in, it was highly suspicious".

As the US Secretary of State, Colin Powell, left for America yesterday, having failed to secure a ceasefire, international fury was growing over events at Jenin. The camp, home to 13,500 refugees, was stormed by Israeli forces a fortnight ago in what Mr Sharon called a counter-terrorism operation against Palestinian militants. The furore has severely damaged Israel's international standing, sending it to its lowest point for several decades.

Palestinians who survived the long battle – in which Israeli helicopters fired rockets and machine-guns into a densely populated area – have said the Israeli army committed many atrocities. Witnesses have described people being shot as they surrendered; houses being bulldozed with people inside; the use of human shields; the burial of 32 bodies in a trench, and one case of Israeli soldiers turning on the household gas supply before tossing a stun grenade into a room full of people.

Richard Cook, head of operations for Unrwa – the UN agency for Palestinian refugees – visited the camp yesterday. He said: "I was absolutely appalled. I anticipated it to a degree but the devastation was much greater than I expected."

The Foreign Office said "disproportionate and excessive" force had been used by Israel, and "clearly civilians were not properly protected".
Re: Jenin Massacre
bhaloo
04/18/02 at 16:40:41
[slm]

[quote author=mujaahid link=board=ummah;num=1018623469;start=0#14 date=04/18/02 at 15:35:19]
No wonder the islaamic world is in such a mess. e have "ulema" telling us to go and and commit MAJOR sins, such as suicide and murder of inncoents, to please Allah (awj)! Astagriffallah.  >:([/quote]

There is a difference of opinion among the scholars regarding the martyrdom operations or as some people say, suicide bombings.

There are many sound scholars that say it is permissible, such as those that were mentioned earlier by Shaihda as well as other scholars.   Some scholars do not consider the Israeli women and men as innocent civillians, BECAUSE those people are required to serve in the army from the age of 18 till 55.   I won't discuss this further here, but you can read the information in detail further.

There is no reason to insult or belittle any of the scholars mentioned, they are all well respected and known throughout the world.  
04/18/02 at 23:54:35
jannah
Re: Jenin Massacre
Kashif
04/18/02 at 16:49:00
[quote author=bhaloo link=board=ummah;num=1018623469;start=15#17 date=04/18/02 at 16:40:41]There is no reason to insult or belittle any of the scholars mentioned, they are all well respected and known throughout the world.  [/quote]

assalaamu alaikum

Yes, i definitely agree. And remember br. Mujaahid that the scholar/qadi is between one and two rewards when he makes a judgment. If he is correct he receives two, and if he errs he gets one.

As lay people, you, me and probably everyone on this board have no such guarantee for ourselves. Whats happening here every so often is that we have a "fatwa-war": blind-followers (yup, thats us) throwing around fatwas to try and convince people of the errors of their ways.

It is a well-known rule that the blind follower is not allowed to use the fatwa of his/her imam to PROVE or DISPROVE someone else's argument, because we are JUST muqallideen!

Kashif
Wa Salaam
NS
Re: Jenin Massacre
mujaahid
04/18/02 at 16:58:18
[slm]

Brother i only go to Azzam to get the news. I dont need to take everything they say. Take the good, leave the rest. They praise the WTC attacks as heroic, i dont agree one bit with that.

[color=red]/SNIP/[/color]

The answers to this problem is clear. Return to the deen, start practising, do what is halal, build up your military, build up your strenghs and alliances with neighbouring muslim, REAL alliances, not these phony "go on brothers, sort them our, thats good, good shot" and empty words and slogans. The palestinians are surrpounding by rich muslim countries! And these "muslim" neioghbours send them little in terms of weapons, which does not help the palesinians.

[color=red]/SNIP/[/color]

The palestinians need to be patient. The heartbreaking fact is they are not ready to fight the israeli's. They dont have an army, no airforce, no navy, no proper ground units! So how can you then beat a military superpower?



[color=red]-----------
As pointed out by Sr. Jannah, the issue of suicide bombings is one that has been hashed and re-hashed numerous times on this board. The discussion often ends up causing dissension and rather fruitless. Anyone who wants to discuss the ins and outs of suicide bombings can contact br.Arshad (bhaloo).
          -- Mod[/color]
NS
04/18/02 at 17:38:55
Kashif
Re: Jenin Massacre
jannah
04/19/02 at 00:00:15
[color=red]I just removed/edited many of the above posts. I don't know how many times and ways I can say this. The topic of suicide bombings/martyrdom operations is BANNED on this board--(there is no consensus on this issue, scholars differ AND it has been discussed here to all of our detriment many times). That means.... NO discussion, NO fatwas, NO links, NO opinions on this topic whatsoever.  The only thing allowed in relation to this topic are news articles.

It is an important topic, but this isn't the place for it. Take it offline. Jazakamullahu khairan.
[/color]
04/19/02 at 00:00:55
jannah


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