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Going on Hajj with a non mahrem

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Going on Hajj with a non mahrem
maariya
04/15/02 at 11:56:33
[slm] sisters and brothers  :-*

I have recently come across a case where two women stayed in mecca and medina without their mahrem  :o. Firstly is it haraam to go on hajj without your mahrem and secondly is it haraam to stay in mecca or medina without your mahrem.

I am very concerned about this since it is the second case that I have heard of.  :(

[wlm]  :-)
Re: Going on Hajj with a non mahrem
khanzadeh
04/16/02 at 05:18:34
[slm]

One opinion (held by Imam Shafai (ra)??) is that woman can perform Haj without her mahram provided she is accompanying good and trust worthy women on pilgrimage.

Old thread:

http://www.jannah.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl/YaBB.pl?board=madrasa&action=display&num=3690
04/16/02 at 05:19:54
khanzadeh
Re: Going on Hajj with a non mahrem
Chris
04/17/02 at 19:27:34
The hadiths are not conductive to understanding God.  They are human works and, as such, falible.  I recall no mention in the Qua'ran that says that a women cannot travel on her own and I can think of a few good reasons why she should.

What if there is NO Mahrem?  No one who cannot marry her?  Should she be forbidden to go to Mecca?

Do what feels right to you and ignore anything that does not accord with your beliefs

Chris
Re: Going on Hajj with a non mahrem
Maliha
04/17/02 at 21:38:53
[slm]
Chris how can you disregard the perfect example of the greatest exemplar of Humanity (the Prophet Peace Be Upon him) and instead offer to follow "what feels right to you"...there are soo many things in this world that cater to my desires and are extremely *harmful* and detrimental to my well being do i follow those too? When it comes to Islam, the Quran does not outline every single situation and does not go into detail about every aspect of living, whereas the Prophet (S.A.W) laid out the path and through his Hadiths (sayings) and Sunnah (actions) we gain insight into the daily aspects of worship and the details of what is and is not allowed by Allah.
To submit to Islam one has to take the Shahada. The first part bears witness that Allah is the only God worthy to be worshipped and that Muhammad is His messenger. The shahada is not a mere testimony but an acceptance of submission to Allah and to follow the example of the Prophet (S.A.W)...

Anywayz, jus my two cents..
Maliha   :-)
[wlm]
04/18/02 at 07:32:28
Maliha
Re: Going on Hajj with a non mahrem
eleanor
04/18/02 at 15:11:44
[quote author=Chris link=board=madrasa;num=1018895631;start=0#2 date=04/17/02 at 19:27:34]Do what feels right to you and ignore anything that does not accord with your beliefs[/quote]

This is a very naive and dangerous statement to make. I'm going to take an extreme example here for the purpose of demonstration...
Say an anti-Muslim were to read this board.. They don't know if you are Muslim or not.. So they make the assumption that it's okay to do whatever you believe in, regardless of the consequences...

Taking your statement as proof, then Sharon is justified in massacring Palestinians - because he believes it is right..
Hitler was justified in killing all the Jews, because he felt it was right...
And a criminal is justified in rape and murder because he feels it's right....

Please practise more care in what you post..
Thank you.

wasalaam
eleanor  :-*
Re: Going on Hajj with a non mahrem
se7en
04/19/02 at 03:17:51
[quote] The hadiths are not conductive to understanding God.  They are human works and, as such, falible. [/quote]

On the contrary, the ahadeeth are *essential* to understanding God and what He has prescribed for us as Muslims.

It’s true that there is no guarantee of preservation for each and every hadeeth, however dismissing *all* of the ahadeeth is not right.  There are ahadeeth that that can be traced back to the prophet Muhammad [saw] through a secure chain (or chains) of narrators, and have been authenticated under the scrutiny of scholars and experts in the field.

The sunnah is the second source of divine law after the Qur’an itself.. from it we derive a *huge* part of the sharia, and without it, your practice and understanding of Islam is incomplete and incorrect.

[quote] I recall no mention in the Qua'ran [/quote]

The Qur'an is not the only source of divine law (though it is the first) and simply because something is not mentioned explicitly in the Qur'an, does not mean it should automatically be dismissed or rejected.  

[quote]What if there is NO Mahrem?  No one who cannot marry her?  Should she be forbidden to go to Mecca? [/quote]

Islamic law - as based on the sources of the Qur'an, the sunnah, qiyaas and ijmaa' - is rational, dynamic and practical.  It houses room for exceptions and concessions in particular circumstances, like the ones you mentioned above.
04/19/02 at 15:49:17
se7en
Re: Going on Hajj with a non mahrem
maariya
04/19/02 at 19:12:51
[slm]  :-*

I follow the hanafi school of thought and as far as I was aware it is haraam to go on hajj without your mahrem. Having been on Umrah myself with my older brother I appreciated the wisdom in having your mahrem with you. I am very confused over this matter, could someone please clarify this. If a mahrem is not required then in theory I could go to perform hajj myself???  ??? Can anyone give the clarification for the shafii opinion?

[wlm]  :-)
Re: Going on Hajj with a non mahrem
jannah
04/22/02 at 12:44:55
[slm]

There are different opinions on this by scholars, but basically saudi scholars believe one must have a mahram to perform hajj. Therefore you will not get a visa to go to hajj unless you have proof of a mahram going with you.
Re: Going on Hajj with a non mahrem
Chris
04/22/02 at 12:50:45
To be blunt, if there are anti-muslims (and I think you mean anti-islamics) browsing this board, they probably will not be influenced by what a Muslim (or presumed muslin) thinks.  But you do have a point and I'll try to be more careful in future.  

That said, I won't lie, whitch is against my personal beliefs and I will not attempt to concel my own opion from anyone.  

Humans are falible.  If I was not, I'd be a mulitimillionaire by now.  I don't like pointing out self-evident truths, but here is one regarding the hadiths.  They will have been written by people with their own perception of God and the Koran.  They will have formed these based upon their own personal experiances.  They may not be relervent today.  I have little in common with the people who write the orginal hadiths and, if they were to pop out of a time warp into the modern world, they'ed be overwhelmed.

I see nothing wrong with a women traveling on her own and regard it as perfecutly normal.

Peace

Chris
Re: Going on Hajj with a non mahrem
BroHanif
04/22/02 at 13:46:13
[quote]To be blunt, if there are anti-muslims (and I think you mean anti-islamics) browsing this board, they probably will not be influenced by what a Muslim (or presumed muslin) thinks.  [/quote]

Chris mate to be frank, personally I speak for myself but I don't give a hoot to what others think, Islam is a religion for all, however not everyone will accept it. The Quran and the sunnah are our guidelines that we follow there is no deviation in that, once there is then the fault lies with those who are are acting or as seen as muslims.

[quote]I have little in common with the people who write the orginal hadiths [/quote]

Then we have little in common with you. Please don't insult those who wrote the orginal hadith, indirectly you are insulting our prophet  [saw] who many times narrated the original hadith to his companions i.e. the sahabas. Respect our religion and we will respect you, otherwise the consequences are great.

[quote]I see nothing wrong with a women traveling on her own and regard it as perfecutly normal[/quote]
We beg to differ.

I'd be careful what I'd say.

Hanif
Re: Going on Hajj with a non mahrem
Chris
04/22/02 at 15:48:13
[quote]Then we have little in common with you. Please don't insult those who wrote the orginal hadith, indirectly you are [/quote]

That was not meant as an insult, but a simple statement of fact.  We live today in a world where you can travel round the world in minutes, where you can ring up your uncle bob in texas from London in seconds, where we can put men on the moon and, most of all, we are exposed to other, different, cultures daily.  

What would one of the 6th-7th Hadith writers have thought of the computers we are using to have the conversation on?  He would have thought it was Magic!  He would be compleatly out of his deaph in our brave new world.  What would he say, if charged that his religion, that he knew 1600 years ago, was responsible for the destruction of Buildings he could not even imagine, let alone build?  What would he say to Bin Ladan?  

And how well you I, or you, cope if we were thrust back in time to the era of Momenmend?  I would have been tempted to sneak up to the mountain to see if the angel realy appeared.  If, of course, I even understood where and when I was.

And if I met one of them and we talked, would we understand each other?

Simply, I have more in common with Muslims today than I would have with one 1000s of years ago.

Chris
Job 15:3
se7en
04/22/02 at 18:27:26
Chris, let's look at things in simple terms.

To be a Muslim, one has to follow both the Qur'an, and the way of the Prophet Muhammad [saw] known as the sunnah.  [As is clearly stated in the Qur'an in numerous places, like in ali'-Imran ayah 31, suratun Nisaa ayah 65 and 80, suratul Ahzaab ayah 21, 36, 71, an-Nahl ayah 44, surah Hashr ayah 7, surah Muhammad ayah 33, etc. and also in the understanding that the general statements in the Qur'an are explained by the explicit nature of the sunnah.]

And, in order to follow the way of the Prophet Muhammad [saw], one has to look at the ahadeeth.

If you are questioning the character of the companions, it's easy to shut you down because the Qur'an itself bears witness to the righteous nature of the sahaba [ali-'imran ayah 110, surah tawbah ayah 100, al fat-h ayah 18, etc]

What I'd like for you to understand is that we believe Muhammad, peace be upon him, was a prophet of God.  His actions, his deeds, his words, everything about him was divinely guided, and we believe that he is *our* guide, whom we strive to emulate, and that his teachings and practices go beyond the context of his time, location or circumstances when they are understood properly.

One thing I think you fail to understand is the difference between 'urf  or custom, and deen or the religion and religious practices.  Indeed, a people that lived fourteen hundred years ago have different customs than we do - but this does not negate their ability to narrate the prophetic texts.  We strive to emulate *them* because they were near *him* peace be upon him - and obviously those closest to him would take after him more so than those that came later.

I also caution you to be very careful with how you speak of the character of the sahaba because it has very severe consequences.  It's only a short jump to rejecting the Qur'an, as it was they who recorded and transcribed the Qur'an itself.

Also, something funny your post reminded me of.. you mention that we're able to travel all these places in such short distances.. but as Muslims, we believe that the prophet Muhammad [saw] undertook the Israa' wal Mi'raaj - a journey to Jeruselam and then an ascent to the heavens.  Can you imagine hearing of this fourteen hundred years ago?  

Abu Bakr, may Allah be pleased with him, a companion of the Prophet, believed this as soon as he was told of it.  And when he was questioned about it he said - I believe in something more wonderful than that.  I believe that Muhammad [saw] receives revelation from the Heavens.

Kinda puts a perspective on things :)

And God knows best.

peace chris.
04/22/02 at 21:33:22
se7en
Re: Going on Hajj with a non mahrem
maariya
04/26/02 at 07:55:49
[slm]

With all due respect, but I don't believe that Chris has an understanding of the highly sophisticated heavenly deen of Islaam. Chris, your knowledge seems very limited and although I believe that people should express their opinions openly and honestly there is a difference between doing this and speaking ignorantly.  :-)

Getting back to the topic:
okay so, if a muslim follows the hanafi school of thought in all actions, would it be permissable for the muslim to follow the shafi school of thought in this area and lie to the saudi government?. Please bear in mind that the muslim does have a mahrem but the mahrem does not have enough holidays from work to complete the journey with her.

[wlm]
Re: Going on Hajj with a non mahrem
Marcie
04/26/02 at 10:33:24
[color=Teal] [slm]

[quote]okay so, if a muslim follows the hanafi school of thought in all actions, would it be permissable for the muslim to follow the shafi school of thought in this area and lie to the saudi government?. [/quote]

Do you really want to lie if you are going on Hajj?  ???

A lot of times if you go with a group you can go without your mahrem.  I did umra this way and my friend did hajj this year without her husband.
Insha'Allah everything is possible.  :-*

[wlm]
Marcie  :-)[/color]
Re: Going on Hajj with a non mahrem
maariya
04/27/02 at 16:31:09
[slm]

 :o Yes inshallah everything is possible that is within the fold of Islaam.

My point is that if Allah (swt) has decreed a matter then we do not have any opinion in it. So when Allah (swt) has decreed that a women should go on hajj with her mahrem and that there is NO obligation on a women to perform Hajj if she does not have a mahrem, then who are we as humans to have any personal opinion???....isn't it a transgression???

I agree noone should lie when they are going on Hajj, but I know 2 women and a man who had lied...Allahu Alim, I guess it shows the state in which we are living in today  :(

BTW I think that  :-) and  ;-) is sooooo cool   8)

[wlm]
:-*
Re: Going on Hajj with a non mahrem
Chris
04/29/02 at 15:00:49
I suppose that you're right.  I know much less than I would like about the history of Islam, but I wish one point (about myself) made clear.

I am judging, if such a word can be used, Islam by the actions of the people involved in it.  That is, the Muslims themselves.  Actions speak far louder than words, and the Qua'ran, amasing book though it is, is only words.  I know that Muslims believe that Mommand was a prohet of God, though I don't always understand it, but that is beside the point.

What annoyies me is that some Muslims act in a manner whcih I personly find disgusting, and is indeed against Islam as it is understood by Muslims whose opion I trust.  The dispicable custom of Forced Marraige, for example, is committed constantly, despite the injunction not to 'inherit women against their will'.  

God gave us eyes to see the world, and I see no reason why Women are not the full equals of Men.  I have been outwitted by some girls, and have outsmarted others.  I see no reason why a women can not go on Hajj herself, and if she wishes to, she may.  

Peace

Chris
Re: Going on Hajj with a non mahrem
jannah
04/29/02 at 19:10:38
Can you drive without your seatbelt in new york state? Can you work in the united states without having visa papers?  Nope, because these are the laws of the land. I might find these unfair but these are the laws to protect the united states and the people, sometimes even against their own freedoms!! (now we can get into the whole 'can you yell fire in a crowded theater, but we'll skip it)

So in Islam there are some laws that may seem unfair at first, or against your freedom as an individual, but we have to understand that islam came down for EVERYONE in all times and places, not just you.

Now about the issue that you've been talking about "traveling alone for a women", this is allowed by many scholars for a variety of reasons, because times and circumstances have changed. There are many women who travel alone to pursue knowledge, visit their families etc etc. Travel that used to be dangerous or take weeks or longer now is quite safe and may take less than a few hours!

As for the Quran, it may only be words, but the sunnah or the practical example of the prophet and his companions should be the example we look at to see how islam was implemented. The Muslims of today...we know are far from the true teachings sometimes and so it would be unfair to judge how they follow the words of God, when they don't!!

Agree with you about forced marriages and alot of other messed up customs. May God grant us the strength to recognize that which is false and remove it from us.


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