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Man the head honcho??
mujaahid
04/16/02 at 13:41:37
[slm] Today a white-non muslim scottish girl and myself had a heated debate, and she asked made this comment, to which i did not respond instead asking her to come here and ask the muslim converts and muslim women and allow you guys to speak for yourselves. What she said was: "I would not submit to a man.  I take it your faith believes the man is head honcho?  Thats what fundy Christians think and I don't think I'd thrive in that environment either." So she is saying islaam says men are the dominant ones who decide everything and the women have no role other then to go along with the men. So is this how converts feels? Is this how muslims women feel? Do you agree with this girls opinions? Are muslim women oppressed? Converts, WHY did you convert to Islaam? How does islaam treat you differently compared to the lifestyle and culture you followed before you converted? Born Muslim women, how does islaam treat you as women? What rights does it give you? Do you feel happeir and better of as a muslim woman as opposed to a liberated western women? If so, how? These are the questions, only you sisters have the answers. I would prefer it if only sisters responded to these as i want this girl to see muslim women speak for themselves. Wasalaam Mujaahid/Nazir [Edited by Admin]
04/17/02 at 15:45:14
jannah

Re: Speak up Sisters
nouha
04/16/02 at 14:46:18
[slm] there are sooo many articles and such out there about how muslim women are NOT oppressed, even here in jannah.org. a few weeks ago in my english class, we had a debate about muslim women,  the presenters were non muslims, i didnt want to be in their group becuase i wanted them to learn that muslim women arent oppressed etc, i also didnt want to be tehonly one doin the work anyways, during their presentation, my mouth dropped, they PROVED, using the quran, bible and torah, that women in islam are NOT oppressed, i was sooooo surprised to hear this from non muslims, they kept saying things liek how muslim women have been prime ministers in other countries, and this was before america even inluded many women in their goverment. there is a book called: "Daughters of Another Path", its written by a non muslim mother whose daughter had converted to islam, its very good! i suggest you offer the to this girl. i dont need to be a feminist woman because islam Alhumdulilah gives me all the rights i need.  in islam, there is no such thing as feminism, why should there be? Allah(SWT) told me what my rights are in the quran and through the Prophet (SAWS), how can i then go form a muslim feminism group, sorry but no such group should exist! that would saying that Allah(SWT) made a mistake in the quran about woman, astaghfirulah! I DEFEINETLY feel happier and more liberated as a muslim women not only compared to western woman, but non muslim woman all over the world! i dont need to wake up an hour early to get my hair done just so i can get some cheesy complement from my male co workers, i dont need to keep ajusting the Donna Karen mini skirt i bought for $50 to make it longer becuase i now think its too short i dont need to run to the bathroom to make sure my makeup is perfect because the guy i have a crush on just walked in, mujaahid u asked if i felt happeir as a muslim woman more than a liberated western woman, heres the thing -- non muslim western woman are not liberated to begin with, and if they tell you that muslim women are oppressed, tell them to find out what ISLAM says about women, not what the CULTURE is showing. im going to try to get the notes from that presentation group, becuase they did an awesome job, i hope i didnt sound like a bomb just ticked off in my head, forgive me if i did  :-* wasalam nouha:)

Re: Speak up Sisters
Jenna
04/16/02 at 14:50:16
Wa'alaikum Assalaam wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuh  Yes, the husband is the head of the household, at the same time people do not realize that men have certain obligations on how to treat his wife. He must be kind to her and not oppress her & have pateince w/her.  Also in a household where the husband and the wife treat each other according to the Qur'aan and Sunnah, there you will find the husband and wife a team, he goes out and works she takes care of the house and kids, and he helps her out... (like mine  ;) )  I think that is a problem with some women coming to Islaam, is that they cannot accept that the male is in charge. Personally, I am happy with this arrangement. I wish these women could see the happy side of an Islaamic Marriage, not just what they heard or from their friend married to a 'muslim' man etc.... ~~~~~ [color=Navy]Do you feel happeir and better of as a muslim woman as opposed to a liberated western women? If so, how?  [/color] ~~~~  Yes, because as a Muslim; I am serving my Lord, and I have a set a rules to follow. InshaAllah my goal is Paradise, not this earthly glitter.... Your Sis in Islaam Jenna  :-)

Re: Speak up Sisters
Dawn
04/16/02 at 15:14:41
Let's do be careful of overgeneralizing here.   [quote]  I DEFEINETLY feel happier and more liberated as a muslim women not only compared to western woman, but non muslim woman all over the world!   i dont need to wake up an hour early to get my hair done just so i can get some cheesy complement from my male co workers,   i dont need to keep ajusting the Donna Karen mini skirt i bought for $50 to make it longer becuase i now think its too short i dont need to run to the bathroom to make sure my makeup is perfect because the guy i have a crush on just walked in,  [/quote] I am pretty sure that I qualify as a western woman but none of the above comments ever applied to me, even as a teenager.  I don't wear makeup, I spend about 30 seconds on my hair in the morning, I am really picky about wearing only clothes and shoes that are really comfortable, and I still manage to look decent.  I could say the same for a bunch of my friends (though not all).  Not all western women are enslaved to fashion and appearances.  Let's be careful of over-stereotyping. Now, Mujaahid, I think what she might be referring to a couple of verses in the Qur'an, such as 4:34 where, quoting from the Yusuf Ali translation, we can read "Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because God has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means.  Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what God would have them guard.  ..." Obedience is a hard word for many in Western society.  And in the extreme, I can see it being interpreted as "the man is the head honcho".  And she is right about the fundy Christians.  There is a verse in the New Testament which explicitly says "Wives, submit to your husbands ...".  I think she is probably equating "devoutly obedient" and "submit to" and "the man is the head honcho".  Now, I see this as being a separate issue from "oppression of women" in general, so perhaps you ought to check back with her to see exactly what she meant by her comments.  That way, our comments to you, which you can then relay to her, will be more appropriate. Peace, Dawn

Re: Speak up Sisters
saadia
04/16/02 at 16:25:12
[slm] I read a great book called If I Should Speak, I can't remember the author's name however.....she made a great point about the above: A man is the head of the household, yes, but does that make him superior? Does it make the woman any less of a person? A teacher is the head of the classroom, are her students inferior? The President is the head of the country, are we any less than him, are we inferior? I looove when people make that argument. [wlm]

Re: Speak up Sisters
se7en
04/16/02 at 16:27:37
as salaamu alaykum, Br. Abdul Basir gave an *awesome* explanation of  'obedience to your husband' [url=http://www.jannah.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl/YaBB.pl?board=sisters&action=display&num=2312]here[/url].

Re: Speak up Sisters
Kathy
04/16/02 at 20:38:41
[quote author=mujaahid link=board=sis;num=1018978897;start=0#0 date=04/16/02 at 13:41:37] "I would not submit to a man.  I take it your faith believes the man is head honcho?  Thats what fundy Christians think and I don't think I'd thrive in that environment either." [/quote] I would ask her what her definition of submission is- and what she thinks Muslimahs are doing. [quote]So she is saying islaam says men are the dominant ones who decide everything and the women have no role other then to go along with the men. [/quote] And where did she hear that and what context is she talking about? [quote]So is this how converts feels?[/quote] Yeah we do when we let cultural Islam over ride the true Islam. [quote]Is this how muslim women feel? [/quote] If our husbands are righteous and following Islam- we do not have any problem- because then we would agree. [quote]Do you agree with this girls opinions? [/quote] It does not sound like she has an opinion- she is just repeating what she has heard. Her questions are too vague. [quote]Are muslim women oppressed? [/quote] by thier culture - not by Islam [quote]Converts, WHY did you convert to Islaam? [/quote] It was so obvious that Islam was the Right Path. [quote]How does islaam treat you differently compared to the lifestyle and culture you followed before you converted?[/quote] It treats us much better - but it takes many of us a long time to understand this.

Re: Speak up Sisters
Laila
04/16/02 at 20:43:06
[slm]   The video "The Ideal Muslim Husband" is an [u]excellent[/u] teaching video for both men and women. The three men in the video are prominent in the Muslim world, and tell the role of the husband in the perspective of Qur'anic teachings. The women in the video are also excellent in showing the woman's view. All in all it is a good work- I watch it frequently and recommend it to everyone- married or not, Muslim or not.    [wlm]  :-) Laila

Re: Speak up Sisters
Beth
04/17/02 at 03:28:24
Right ladies.  Let me add a bit of background to this story.  Nazir was, for about the fiftieth time so far this week, asking me to marry him (he seems to think he's something of a catch for some unfathomable reason ) when we got involved in this so-called "heated debate".  He asked me a number of questions, namely: 1) how would you feel about marrying an asian? 2) how would you feel about marrying a strict, yet laid back muslim? 3) how would your mum react if you wanted to marry a muslim? He then went on, rather in the same vein as Nouha above though with slightly less panache to characterise all westerners as junkies/winos/criminals/underage mothers/abusive/disrespectful and addicted to porn.  In my answer I concurred with Dawn, saying >>>"What you have consistently failed to grasp Nazir, is that its not an either/or situation.  It isn't the case that you either become a muslim or you become a crack addict/alcoholic/teenage mother/porn saddo" You can however, be assured that never anywhere did I say >>>islaam says men are the dominant ones who decide everything and the women have no role other then to go along with the men. You probably should be advised that truth,for Nazir is an expandable commodity and relative to his agenda at all times.  What I DID say, during the discussion was that I didn't believe a relationship/marriage between myself and a muslim man would flourish since I would be unprepared to view him as 'head of the household' and perhaps more damagingly, could not see how his religious beliefs would not encroach into my life.  I would not be prepared to convert and suspected that Islaam, like many religions, or at least for zealous adherents, cannot be self-contained and must surely affect spouses/children. Nevertheless I will take the girls' comments on boards and ferret out this book Saadia mentioned.  Thanks for your input.

Re: Speak up Sisters
mujaahid
04/17/02 at 09:13:35
Kathy why are you telling her to run? As for the 50 proposals. If that is true then i'm a flower  :-*

:DRe: Speak up Sisters
UmmWafi
04/17/02 at 11:43:19
Flowers ? Settle for petals ? Is it spring already ? Or is luuurrrvvveeee just in the air ? heh heh Awwwwww aren't they so cuuutteeeee just squabbling away like some old married couples :) Don't mind me Nelly cos I am usually the thorn in Nazir's flesh and erm....I kinda like being thorny at times. Specially in times like these lol. BTW nice meeting u Nelly and I can guess that u have a great sense of humour ( u should have if u "discuss" with Nazir on more than one occasion heh heh ). Ok ok sorry Mujy..just can't resist this ultra golden opportunity. PS Nelly ? Take it from someone whose been married for ages. You'd be surprised by the Truth *smiles* Have a flowery..I mean great day everyone :)

Re: Speak up Sisters
Beth
04/17/02 at 11:56:17
Hi UmmWafi! Great to meet you!  Yes, I'd love to unburden myself of many, many anecdotes relating to our "brother in arms" Mujaahid but sadly, he has threatened to punch my lights out if I stray from the topic at hand.  (Darn if I haven't just done it)  ;) Anyway, he's not talking to me at the mo.   :'(  Silence is golden, eh?!

Re: Speak up Sisters
UmmWafi
04/17/02 at 12:12:01
LOL Ermmm silence is golden because of the bright sparkles u have behind your eyelids after being bombarded by ultra passionate views eh ? Mujy punch the lights out of u ? Naaahhhh not our very sweet Mujy who talks about little Mujahids and Mujahidahs :) ( really u should get Se7en to provide u with that link, its terribly cute ). And should u ever have this overwhelming need to burden u can always IM me heh heh PS Ellie....do I see our private investigating back in business ? What say u lass ? * to the sounds of tacky B-grade horror movie kinda piano music* Muahahahahahahahahaha
04/17/02 at 12:13:17
UmmWafi

Re: Speak up Sisters
Beth
04/17/02 at 12:15:04
>>>And should u ever have this overwhelming need to burden u can always IM me heh heh Aw shucks!  You can call me 'Beth' then.  Funny he never mentioned you! Lol.  :)

Re: Speak up Sisters
UmmWafi
04/17/02 at 12:19:19
Hey Beth ( Beth is Scottish ?) :) U can call me Olin (thats what me friends call me). >> funny he never mentioned u One very simple clue : THORN IN HIS FLESH Vous comprende ? LOL.....I am glad u join us cos we can be a fun bunch and u can add to the fun.  Feel free to ask around and if u throw in a nice Scottish pie we can even tell u what u wanna know about Mujy.   *Suddenly feels rather exhilarated* heh heh

Re: Speak up Sisters
Beth
04/17/02 at 12:23:32
>>>LOL.....I am glad u join us cos we can be a fun bunch and u can add to the fun.  Feel free to ask around and if u throw in a nice Scottish pie we can even tell u what u wanna know about Mujy.   I actually [can't.  Most annoying.  I gave him a solemn promise this morning round about the 10th pleading email not to ruin his "image".  Still, I didn't promise not to talk about NOT talking about him, if you catch my drift.   Sounds like you two have some history though.  Do I smell a rival?   >:(

Re: Speak up Sisters
UmmWafi
04/17/02 at 12:31:40
Rival chmival :p It all started so many years ago when we were young and I broke the neck of Mujy's G.I Joe in retaliation to him trying to pay the shopkeeper using my Monopoly money. So unless u have had something as ugly as that...u are no rival sistah

Re: Speak up Sisters
Beth
04/17/02 at 12:34:56
>>>It all started so many years ago when we were young and I broke the neck of Mujy's G.I Joe in retaliation to him trying to pay the shopkeeper using my Monopoly money. So unless u have had something as ugly as that...u are no rival sistah   You're right.  I can tell when I'm beat.  Can you take him off my hands?!   :)

Re: Speak up Sisters
M.F.
04/17/02 at 12:47:45
[quote author=Nelly the Elephant link=board=sis;num=1018978897;start=15#17 date=04/17/02 at 12:23:32]I gave him a solemn promise this morning round about the 10th pleading email not to ruin his "image".   [/quote] :D  :-/:D  :-/ ;D:D :-/ :-/:D that's hilarious.  :-/ bro mujaahid  :-)  you've done a good enough job yourself, you didn't have to make nelly promise :)   I'm sorry mujaahid I couldn't resist ;) no bad feelings honest, ok? ok this is pointless but I just couldn't help myself I would be laughing out loud if I weren't at work. UmmWafi I'm afraid you might have met your thorny match! ;)   Poor Mujaahid didn't know he had thorns in both sides!!!! Ouch.
04/17/02 at 12:49:50
M.F.

Re: Speak up Sisters
Beth
04/17/02 at 12:53:56
M.F   <sniffs>  I don't know what you're talking about I'm sure.  That was me being [i][/i]nice! :-*  'Mujy' has been pestering me for a while to come on this MB - I think he had hopes of someone more eloquent than himself doing a conversion job on me - but I was too shy - you can tell I'm shy, can't you? - so he said he'd come on and introduce me to y'all.  I must say its been fun so far.   ;D

Re: Speak up Sisters
M.F.
04/17/02 at 13:00:51
"I think he had hopes of someone more eloquent than himself doing a conversion job on me " So, how're we doing so far? ;) "you can tell I'm shy, can't you?" Oh suuuuuuure we can tell.  15 posts on your first day.  Very shy indeed ;) He hasn't introduced you  yet, except as a scottish "white" (whatever that means) non muslim.  Is that how you'd introduce yourself?

Re: Speak up Sisters
Beth
04/17/02 at 13:08:36
Of course, where are my manners?  I just come on here and start banging on about marriages and god knows what.   ;)  Tsk, tsk. Well, my name's Beth.  That's actually my middle name but it does the job.  I'm 23, doing a theology postgraduate course with a view to doing my phD in religious pluralism.  I'm white, lapsed RC and I like chicken chew mein.   How's that for an intro?   >>>I think he had hopes of someone more eloquent than himself doing a conversion job on me " So, how're we doing so far?   Not too badly.  But in spite of what 'Mugy' said, I have never thought that all muslim women, or even the majority, said "yes sir, no sir, three bags full sir" to their husband's every whim and cowered in the corner.
NS

Re: Speak up Sisters
M.F.
04/17/02 at 13:27:43
Pleased to meet ya Beth. A theology student, now I get it . So that's why mujahid's putting all this effort iinto trying to convert you ;) Ok this thing about women cowering in the corner, it all depends on the type of man she's cowering from, I think, whether Muslim or non Muslim.  Machoism exists in all sorts of people.  You're right, that's definitly not the Muslim way to do it.  Just because it's the man's responsibility to earn the money for his family (without preventing the women from earning as well) doesn't mean he's lord over his family and that his every desire is their wive's command.  A Muslim man who's read anything about how the Prophet and his friends used to treat their spouses will see that there's no room for tyrants in Islam. Now in almost any society (muslim or non) you can see that in reality, it's the men who do make the decisions (like we're you're going to live and when you're gonna have kids).  That just seems to be the way things are.  Yes there's discussions and arguments and communication going on but from what I've seen in my life it's the women who ultimately make the sacrifice (or decision) out of love to follow their men wherever they go... Does that sound close enough to reality?  Nothing to do with any religion, just the way things are.... Beth :) nice to meet you :)
04/17/02 at 13:29:19
M.F.

Re: Speak up Sisters
Beth
04/17/02 at 13:42:24
>>>it's the men who do make the decisions (like we're you're going to live and when you're gonna have kids).  That just seems to be the way things are.  Yes there's discussions and arguments and communication going on but from what I've seen in my life it's the women who ultimately make the sacrifice (or decision) out of love to follow their men wherever they go... Does that sound close enough to reality?  Nothing to do with any religion, just the way things are.... I agree there's certainly a kernel of truth in what you say, M.L.  But I think part of the reason why this is is because women are raised to subordinate their desires to the interests of their families rather than owing to some intrinsic altruism.  My mother certainly spent practically every spare minute of her time on me as a child.  Her spare time was taken up with me.  Like my father, she held down a full-time job.  His spare time, however, was taken up with his hobbies, his mates, golfing, whatever.  The result for me, and for many of my friends, was a more remote relationship with my father than my mother.  That is why I don't think the so-called 'natural' order is necessarily a good thing and should be challenged, not just accepted because "its the way its always been."  You say that its men who make the decisions - I would respond by saying its men who are SEEN to make the decisions when in reality its often the women "pulling the strings" (for want of a better word) behind the scenes.  My mother cites several friends who had this kind of relationship with their husbands - on the surface it appeared to be the menfolk making all the major decisions but really it was their wives (we won't say manipulating, such a dirty word) encouraging them in such and such a direction.  In this way, the husband kept face. I think the power within a relationship should be equal - as a westerner I couldn't really imagine being in a relationship where I deferred to my husband as a matter of principle.

Re: Why Not BASH MUJAAHID!!
mujaahid
04/17/02 at 14:04:44
[slm] OK lets get a few things clear here. 1) I have NEVER proposed to Beth, EVER. 2) I have NEVER threatened to punch her lights out, in fact, i have never ever threatened to lay a finger on her. 3) She's stalking me!!! MAMA MOD!!! DID YOU HEAR THAT? SHE IS STALKING ME!! YOU GONA LET SOMEONE DO THAT TO YOUR FOSTER SON AND UNOFFICAL SPOKESMAN!!!?? So UmmWaffi and MF, take your best shots, Mujaahids air warning systems, bought from the Taliban after they were shot down from the USA, will give me enough warning when your taking shots at me while i aint looking!! Just be warned, Mujaahid cries easily  :'( ANYWAY BETH i told you you'd like the Fundy muslim women didnt i? Do Ummwaffi and MF sound to you like your Media propogated submissive, cowardly, and abused muslim women?

Re: Why Not BASH MUJAAHID!!
Beth
04/17/02 at 14:09:24
>>>ANYWAY BETH i told you you'd like the Fundy muslim women didnt i? Do Ummwaffi and MF sound to you like your Media propogated submissive, cowardly, and abused muslim women? I never once said I thought they were "submissive, cowardly and abused" so you're preaching to the converted.  I like them already.  ;D Anyway, Nazir.  Do go away.  We were trying to have a serious discussion.  Didn't you see the "sisters" sign on the door or are you trying to tell us all something?   ???

Re: Why Not BASH MUJAAHID!!
mujaahid
04/17/02 at 14:24:01
[slm] yEAH I'M GONE!!! I dont think ANYONE will be interested in things like: "I agree there's certainly a kernel of truth in what you say, M.L.  But I think part of the reason why this is is because women are raised to subordinate their desires to the interests of their families rather than owing to some intrinsic altruism" What is that? WHAT THE HEck ([i] yes- momma mod changed the word[/i]) IS THAT??? I'm gone from this place :-X!! Kernel of truth? raised to subordinate thier desires? owing to some intrinsic altruism? ??? Sheesh! I prefered it when the sisters discussed cross stitch, at least THAT made sense!
04/17/02 at 16:08:38
Kathy

Re: Why Not BASH MUJAAHID!!
Beth
04/17/02 at 14:27:31
Nazir, I strongly advise you to change the title of this thread back to the original, else there's gonna be a stampede and the entire board will be liable to crash.   :'( Now, you're just after chastising me for never being serious.  So I post a 'serious' post and lo and behold!  you don't understand it.  Should have stuck in at uni my son!   ;)

Re: Why Not BASH MUJAAHID!!
mujaahid
04/17/02 at 14:36:29
[slm] "Now, you're just after chastising me for never being serious.  So I post a 'serious' post and lo and behold" I told you to post proper messages, as in sensible stuff, i didnt realise you'd go crazy and completely loose it  :-X You go from one extreme to the other, now try the middle path  ;-)

Re: Why Not BASH MUJAAHID!!
Dawn
04/17/02 at 14:44:39
Hmmm, sometime during the last five minutes the title of this thread managed to change.  I wonder how that happened?  ::)  :-/ Welcome to the board, Nelly / Beth.  I notice that you were far more creative with your login name than I was with mine!   As a non-Muslim who is learning about Islam, I hadn't been planning on saying much in this thread, other than the request for clarification I had previously posted, but since you all got on a topic (role of women in a marriage relationship) that is near and dear to my heart, I decided to post anyway.  It does certainly seem to me that in Western cultures, especially those of a generation back, the husbands were the stereotypical "head of the household"s and the women sacrificed a lot for their families.  My family is no exception.  My mom moved 3000 miles from home (CA to NY) a year after they were married so that Dad could continue in the family business -- in spite of the fact that she was a city girl and the business was in a teeny-tiny town.   From among my friends though (middle twenties through early forties bunch), the attitude is quite different, from what I can tell.  It seems to me that there is much more compromise going on between the spouses, both on where to live and work, and if and when to have kids (the two points listed in a previous post), and I personally know a couple of stay-at-home dads.  Now, I don't know how much compromising went on in my parents' decisions, so I can't say if this is a change or not.  It just seems to me that there is far more of this these days than previously.  So, I am not sure how widely spread this [quote]But I think part of the reason why this is is because women are raised to subordinate their desires to the interests of their families rather than owing to some intrinsic altruism.[/quote] is.  (Now, I can't say that my friends are typical, as they are mostly friends from grad school, and the typical person doesn't have a J.D. or an M.D. or an MBA or a Ph.D., as most of us do, so maybe my generalizations are not applicable.  Maybe we are just exceptions to the rule.) But in any case,  Beth, I agree with you here: [quote]  I think the power within a relationship should be equal [/quote] and 10 years or so ago I found a guy who agreed.  (I have the world's most wonderful husband  :-/ !!!!!!)  We just don't see why a marriage needs a titular "head of household".  One thing I have realized though.  In an ideal Islamic marriage, it seems to me as if it is rather a moot point, and the "submission" or "obedience" thing somewhat irrelevant.  If both partners are constantly seeking the best for their mate, trying their hardest to please them, and striving to keep a balance in their own lives, then compromise is inevitable, unavoidable, and actually sought after.  There ends up not really being a "dominant one" and a "subservient one".  They are partners, and the "head of household" title is only just that -- a title .  At least, this is what I have picked up on.  Now, I could be mistaken about this one, so all of you sisters, please chime in if need be. Peace, Dawn

Re: Why Not BASH MUJAAHID!!
Beth
04/17/02 at 14:54:39
Naz.  I'll wager you anyone else will understand what I've said.  We seem to have one taker already.  I think you choose NOT to understand.   ???

Re: Why Not BASH MUJAAHID!!
mujaahid
04/17/02 at 14:57:06
zzzzzzzZZZZZZZZzzzzZZZZZzzzzZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZ

Re: Why Not BASH MUJAAHID!!
Beth
04/17/02 at 15:00:25
Salaam Dawn! Can you explain to me why the need to preserve such a title "head of the household" if its obselete?  Why not just do away with it, and its accompanying connotations, altogether?  Are you saying its just retained to massage the male ego and give men (and women!) something over and against which to define their respective roles?

8/tr>

Re: Why Not BASH MUJAAHID!!
Beth
04/17/02 at 15:04:47
>>>zzzzzzzZZZZZZZZzzzzZZZZZzzzzZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZ Yes, that's right cherub.  Baba go lie down.     :-/  What need have we to miss the wit of Oscar Wilde with 'Mujy' to take his place?

Re: Why Not BASH MUJAAHID!!
Dawn
04/17/02 at 15:13:40
[quote author=Nelly the Elephant link=board=sis;num=1018978897;start=30#32 date=04/17/02 at 15:00:25]Salaam Dawn! Can you explain to me why the need to preserve such a title "head of the household" if its obselete?  Why not just do away with it, and its accompanying connotations, altogether?  Are you saying its just retained to massage the male ego and give men (and women!) something over and against which to define their respective roles?[/quote] Nope, I'm with you here, and I couldn't tell ya, respectively!  A bit more seriously, I have only been learning about Islam (world religion class in college aside) for about three and a half months now (and this in my spare time), and I have been concentrating on the more basic stuff, like the Qur'an, history, etc.  So, what I have relayed is just my rough reconstruction, not necessarily reality.  And I haven't yet a clue about the "whys".  My guess is we first ought to take a closer look at the culture the prophet was working in and reaching out to.  I'm in the process of reading a couple of books about his "life and times", so to speak, so I hope to have a clearer picture after that.  But, we shall see! Peace, Dawn

Re: Man the head honcho??
M.F.
04/18/02 at 05:11:30
Good morning everyone, ready for another round of "who wants to be the head honcho?" ;) Why indeed keep the title "head of the household"?  What purpose does it serve?  What does it mean?  Does it mean the person who earns more money?  The person who makes the decisions?  The person raising the kids?  I've heard it applied to everyone.  "Female head of household" is all of the above for example. In Islam, the head of household does not refer to the one with all the power and might over the rest of them.  Rather it refers to the one whose responsibility it is to take care of the rest financially and to protect them (the husband and father), and over whom they (the family) have these rights.  This doesn't entail any power struggle the way I understand it.  "My word is the law" has no place in Islam.  "Shura", which I would translate as asking others to help you with decisions is very very important for Muslims, and isn't limited to the decision of choosing their leader.  Allah tells the Prophet (S) to discuss decisions with people, and then if he makes his decision to rely on Allah... ok this is long enough as it is I think. any input?

Re: Man the head honcho??
eleanor
04/18/02 at 08:14:43
Salaam all :) Firstly, welcome Beth!!! Are you Scottish? I'm Irish :) And white..and I was a lapsed R.C. before I reverted to Islam just over a year ago. So it's nice to meet you. We  need a bit more Celtic spunk on this board, although UmmWaffi doesn't do too bad for a Malay.. okay she's the honourary Celt.. okay Olin? OOoo arrrr... okay.. Head Honcho chez moi? C'est Moi!!! :) [Get that Mujy? Didn't think so...ha ha] yes really.. I does most of the deciding in mah house... poor hubby just throws his hands up to heaven and despairs at regular intervals..hee hee... Beth .- did you check the link that se7en put up? I think that was my thread unless AbdulBasir has been answering more questions on obedience and I didn't notice. Yes, that was my thread.. first ever in this board.. My two issues with Islam were 1) obedience to hubby and 2) wearing the scarf (we call it "hijab" in Islam). I'd be interested to know your thoughts on hijab?? Where do you come from in Scotland? A friend of mine is living in Edinburgh, and I was in Scotland when I was three.. can't remember much though (surprisingly enough) Aaanyways.. hmmm... whenever I respond to threads where UmmWafi (aka Soleha aka Olin) has posted some wack stuff, then I come out with wack stuff meself... Yes girl, we'll get our detective caps on, our pipes in our mouths and our ol' faithful sheepdogs on the case ..muahahahahaaaaaaaa  8) 8) <---- me and Olin Right, that's it... wasalaam eleanor  :-* oh yes, Beth.. if you want to ask anything or tell anything you can email me too okay? :)

Re: Man the head honcho??
Dawn
04/18/02 at 08:48:30
Somehow I missed se7en's post which referenced AbdulBasir's post.  I think my original response to Beth would have been different had I read that first.  Oh well.  And thanks M.F. for the clarification.  It would then seem that the western connotations of "head of household" differ from the Islamic ones.  This is important to note, as much confusion arises when people use words which have different meanings to the individuals in the discussion.  I would have another question then on this topic, reflecting that I have now read AbdulBasir's post.  If the meaning implied by obedience is "accepting guidance", then why are not those words just used instead?  Obedience clearly does have other meanings.  Is this just another example of a not-so-good translation from Arabic to English (for instance Qur'an 4:34)?  ???   Thanks! Dawn
04/18/02 at 08:49:29
Dawn

Re: Man the head honcho??
Beth
04/18/02 at 10:30:13
Hello Eleanor! Great to meet you! Yes, I am a Scot, from the rainy west, though I lived abroad as a child and hope to go back just as soon as I can finish my education and can find a rich man to marry me.  Oh sheesh, that's me back to talking about 'Mujy' again when I promised I wouldn't... ;) Anyway, I haven't seen this link you're talking about.  I'll need to ferret it out.    I am lapsed RC - why is it everyone you meet is a lapsed Roman Catholic?! ???  My mother must be about the only one left practising.  I lapsed when I was about thirteen (ten years) though in truth, I was never mentally really there.  I can't imagine every being in the frame of mind where I could see myself taking up religion again.  Even if I agreed in principle with the teachings of some faith or another, I can't envisage being able to vault the barrier of my agnosticism  and acquire the FAITH that is needed to breath life into [u]religious[/u] conviction.  I just translate religious convictions into a secular context.   How do I feel about the hijab?  Badly.  I don't understand the need for it and note with some wry bitterness that it doesn't extent in men covering themselves up similarly.  Whats sauce for the goose surely should be sauce for the gander...  I don't have a proper understanding of the reasons behind it so I can't cooment fully but what I have read just confirms my opinions about it being linked to power and paranoia.  I'd be interested to hear other peoples reasons for wearing it.

Re: Man the head honcho??
eleanor
04/18/02 at 10:41:46
[slm] [] [] <----- to get us "in the mood"  ;) (bebsi aka pepsi is the local drink here...) [quote author=Nelly the Elephant link=board=sis;num=1018978897;start=30#38 date=04/18/02 at 10:30:13]as soon as I can finish my education and can find a rich man to marry me.  Oh sheesh, that's me back to talking about 'Mujy' again when I promised I wouldn't... ;)[/quote] 8) did you get that Olin?? I hope you are making notes here... hmmm.. [quote]Anyway, I haven't seen this link you're talking about.  I'll need to ferret it out. [/quote] Just look on the first page of this thread and in se7en's post, there is a link to it... [quote]   I am lapsed RC - why is it everyone you meet is a lapsed Roman Catholic?! ??? [/quote] Because the whole religion is based on male elitism and self-propogating rubbish... it doesn't make sense, a whole bunch of man-made laws.. made for men, by men.. make sense?  [quote]My mother must be about the only one left practising.  [/quote] nahh..my mam can keep her company.. It's people like this that have a profound faith in God and have never been exposed to anything except Catholicism and if it was good enough for their parents then it's good enough for them...  :P  (no offence to your Mam..maybe she's very different than mine..) [quote]I lapsed when I was about thirteen (ten years) though in truth, I was never mentally really there.[/quote] hmm.. I was always fairly close to God.. I could feel his presence strongly, and I basically just blindly accepted the whole Catholic thing, until I had my eyes opened.   [quote]I can't imagine every being in the frame of mind where I could see myself taking up religion again.  Even if I agreed in principle with the teachings of some faith or another, I can't envisage being able to vault the barrier of my agnosticism  and acquire the FAITH that is needed to breath life into [u]religious[/u] conviction.  I just translate religious convictions into a secular context.  [/quote] you never know :) [quote]How do I feel about the hijab?  Badly.  I don't understand the need for it and note with some wry bitterness that it doesn't extent in men covering themselves up similarly.  Whats sauce for the goose surely should be sauce for the gander...  I don't have a proper understanding of the reasons behind it so I can't cooment fully but what I have read just confirms my opinions about it being linked to power and paranoia.  I'd be interested to hear other peoples reasons for wearing it.  [/quote] Personally, before learning about the whys and hows of hijab, I was a big opponent of it too. I couldn't understand, like you say, about goose and gander.. But the main thing to get your head around is the difference between men and women. Instead of women always trying to "be as good as" men, they should concentrate on accepting themselves as women and soon they won't want to "be like men". It took me a long long time to change my attitude.. you can't wipe out a lifetime of belief in one night or even in one month. That said, I will let the hijabis tell you more about this, since I'm not quite there myself..  :'( take care Beth, do this to Mujy for me --->  :P wasalaam eleanor  :-*

Re: Man the head honcho??
nouha
04/18/02 at 13:56:29
[slm] i would liek to apologize to dawn and anyone else ive offended if you thought i was talking about all of western women in my response to mujahids question, of course not all of them do what i said, i guess i just get on a role when it comes to talking about muslim women, it always seems like i wanna persuade someone that we are defiently not oppressed, of course we're not, so please forgive me, jazakulumulahu khair wasalam nouha:)

Re: Man the head honcho??
Dawn
04/18/02 at 14:45:37
[quote author=nouha link=board=sis;num=1018978897;start=30#40 date=04/18/02 at 13:56:29] [slm] i would liek to apologize to dawn and anyone else ive offended if you thought i was talking about all of western women in my response to mujahids question, of course not all of them do what i said, i guess i just get on a role when it comes to talking about muslim women, it always seems like i wanna persuade someone that we are defiently not oppressed, of course we're not, so please forgive me, jazakulumulahu khair wasalam nouha:)[/quote] Don't worry, I wasn't offended!  I know that over-generalizing is so easy, and I just wanted to make sure we didn't head down that path, whether about Muslims or non-Muslims.   :-* Peace, Dawn

Re: Man the head honcho??
Road2Jannah
04/19/02 at 16:47:17
[slm] hey ppl. 1st of all i would like to say, i had fun reading this post. i was laughin all the way lol, and also i would like to say welcome to madina. nelly/beth. its great to have u here. Its good to have both muslims and non-muslims participate in this kind of stuff. 1st of all  i would like to say about all the "men of the house thing", is that we 4get we all have differant jobs in this world. Gid gave strenght to the male, b/c he has to provide for the family and to protect them. Which is also the job of the woman. to protect her children, and her husbands wealth. She is his partner in life, and the after world. Woman was made from the rib of man, She was not created from his head to top him, Nor from his feet to be stepped upon, She was made from his side to be close to him, From beneath his arm to be protected by him, Near his heart to be loved by him ( got this from islamway.com) 2nd about hijab, I myself wear it and i feel it has totaly helped me in many ways. There are many reasons why Hijab is needed. When a muslim woman wants to get close to her creater she needs to go by his rules, and God never creates any rules to harm them. islam was bought to us, to take us away from the temptations of the workd, to worship one God. that is our main reason for existense. So u can not totaly understand the need for Hijab until u understand the need to please Allah.One way to explain hijab, is how Muhammed Ali described it, how God creater, gold, pearls, and diamoneds. which are all preciouse and beaitufill things. But all those things are deeply covered and protected. The Gold is wayyyy down in the mountains hard to reach. same with pearls all the way down in the dea. covered by something to keep them far off protected,. those r precious things, but the Muslims woman is more precious then those objects. That is why Muslim women r needed to cover; there are many more reasons, and good ones as well but my post is getting too long ll. I would let some1 else take it from here. [slm]

Heyyyy, do I get discounts as a Celt member ?
UmmWafi
04/20/02 at 08:50:16
[slm] Aighhhttttt *rolls up sleeves* lotsa things to respond to.  But first I would like to make an acceptance speech for being accepted as the honorary Celt member of the Awl Sheepdaug Clan. Oooo Arrrrr  ;D Secondly, I HAVE been taking notes Ellie. In fact, I am now in the process of decoding Mujy's post so that we can find hidden meaning (and also to see how they can be twisted to make him squirm more heh heh) Thirdly, le serious answer to ze questionne of ze head of le household.  Are u all kidding me ? Zis iz not an issue, never has and never will. Sheeshhh, ye think we could move on and talk abt more important things in life like the new Spring collection eye colour and lipstick. Ok ok...I am stressed out with my term papers and thus I am rambling. Didn't ya notice ? But seriously, shall we look at the issue at hand ? Why should the male be the head of the household ? Righto..before we take out the mud and wrestle, shall we first set down the premises ? What do we mean by head of household ? Do we mean to say that le head is ze tyranno de bergerac who cracks his whip at the cowering minnions when they fail to cook with the right amount of salt ? Or is the head of household the de facto person who assumes responsibility for the family ? Do u know or have any idea of how difficult it is to assume responsibility for the success or failure of a family ? Well...being married for 10 years, I can safely say that...IT AIN'T A VACATION IN MAURITIUS SIPPING YOUNG COCONUT WATER BY THE BEACH !!!  pant pant pant  :-X <----suntanned In any partnership (and that is what marriage is in Islam, PARTNERSHIP. Gimme a P..gimme an A...gimme an R..ok u get the idea) there must be one very important ingredient to make the partnership work.  RESPECT. Ala that groovy number...R.E.S.P.E.C.T....sing it sistahs !! If u have respect, there is no question of undermining the other person's worth. I know of so many non-Muslim marriages (and some Muslim ones too nau'udzubillah) that are built on love (or luurrvveee as some say it) but are totally devoid of mutual respect.  What happens ? I'll spare ya the gory details cos there are underagers here *looks meaningfully at nouha and her brethren* Heh heh sorry sisters  ;) mwaaahhhh. In a business setting, even if the business is set up based on a 50-50 partnership, there must be a senior partner in the operation aspect of the business.  Why ? Well simple reason is to avoid confusion when dealing with customers and subordinates (can u imagine having two spokesperson and decider in one meeting ? *shudders*).  However, that does not mean that the appointed senior partner has free reign in making ze decision.  He must consult the other partner in all matters that are integral to the business so as to ensure that the welfare of both parties are protected.  Similarly in Islam, the wife is seen as the partner of the husband.  She has a voice, she should be given a voice in managing the household (else why would Islam ask the male to choose the partner carefully for her worth ?). In MY household, we respect each other. I am better educated academically than my husband but he is wiser than I am.  So he seeks my advice on the logical and technical aspects of an issue and I seek his views to ensure wisdom in actions.  We don't do things without the other's knowledge.  (ok ok so I have hidden that odd brooch or so from him cos he thinks I have 50 more brooches than I need *sheepish*).   But he is the head of my household.  Instead of bristling, I ask myself what it means and whether I want to usurp that position.  Being the head of household means HE has to bear the responsibility of OUR collective decisions.  Being the big kahuna means HE has to have that added responsibility whether he wants to or not.  Wearing the chief cap means HE has to answer to God about the performance of the family as Muslims.  Being Le Grande Chef in this melting pot called our family means not only does he have to worry about HIS responsibilty as husband and father, he also has to take on the *extras* and the *added ons*.  Kapish ? Where am I..err I mean the wife, in this cosmic existence ? She just give her opinions, share in the decision making process, perform her wife and mother role as best as she can and sits back and drinks a bebsi. Am I victimised, subjugated, enslaved, dominated etc because I don't get no head title next to my name ? Heck no ! Do I lose out in any way just cos I don't get no title ? Heck no ! Am I happy with the way things are ? Heck ya !! Preach it sistahs. Listen honeyroos, in life we must always be sincere and true to ourselves. We must always know what we wanna do and why we wanna do them.  For me, the intention or the niah is very important, every thing else is secondary.  I don't do things for the glory of being called Your Royal Highness.  I do it for the worth I can contribute to my ummah, or my community.  The most noble person is one who dies and is mourned not because he was the Count of Monte Cristo but because he is truly loved by people for his deeds.  When we start nitpicking on titles without actually understanding the significance and the significations of things, we lose out so much on the sharing.  Ok so am I am not called the head of the household, but u know what ? I AM called the Ummi. And we all know that the Ummi is the one person the Prophet  [saw] loved very very much Masya'Allah.  Sure, the male is given the title (even then I am not sure we have understood or interpreted this rightly) but Allah blessed the woman with a womb.  And I always told my husband that he has no idea the nikmah or the blessings he misses in not knowing the wonder of carrying a life within u. 8br>That said...I should think that it all evens out doesnt it ? To me it does. *gets off her high horse in case she falls off this temperemental Irish mare* Wassalam.
04/20/02 at 09:01:40
UmmWafi

Re: Man the head honcho??
Aneesa_A.
04/20/02 at 09:25:21
YEah UmmWafi...you go girl! tell it like it is  :-X

Re: Man the head honcho??
eleanor
04/20/02 at 09:48:32
R-E-S-P-E-C-T.... Suck it to me suck it to me suck it to me suck it to me....... [i]eleanor is strangely reminded of the film "Sister Act"......cue X-Files music....[/i] AWESOME POST UMM WAFI (AKA SOLEHAH AKA OLIN)!!!!!! :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X :-X I'm  so excited about this post I'm gonna donate another round on me!!!! Drink up Sistahs!!!!! [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] [] Takbeer!!! Allahu Akhbar.... wasalaam eleanor  :-* PS: Olin is THE woman to get your demos going... Masha Allah  :-X
04/20/02 at 09:50:01
eleanor

Re: Man the head honcho??
WhatDFish
04/20/02 at 11:29:27
[slm] man, i was laffin . . . but sisUmm Wafi, thats one of the best posts ive read. ure a sagely sister mashaa'Allah! here have another round on me . . . [] `Uthmaan

Re: Man the head honcho??
Road2Jannah
04/20/02 at 12:40:49
[slm] mashallah umm wafi, that was a great post. May Allah protect you and ur family, and grant you all more happiness inshallah, ameen.  [wlm]

Re: Man the head honcho??
Anonymous
04/23/02 at 15:51:27
asalaamu alaikum,                 i'm perfectly happy knowing that if i didn't want to work my husband is responsible for                 taking care of me.  any money i make is mine unless I CHOOSE to give it to him.                   Essentially what is his is mine and what is mine is mine.  yes i have to raise the kids, but                 anything else i do in the house is like charity and i'm earning reward for it, insha-allah.  i                 don't think that is a bad deal.                 and hijab and covering up, i'm doing that because allah wants me to, not my husband or                 some other male.  thats more then i can say for non-muslim women who dress the way men want                 them to dress; calvin klein, ralph lauren, tommy hilfiger, whatever their names are.                   Those women are controlled by men, eventhough they don't admit it.  and look at all the                 movie directors, men who get the women to take their clothes off.  now they are oppressed,                 not me, i'm liberated.

Re: Man the head honcho??
Dawn
04/24/02 at 06:42:38
UmmWafi, that was a beautiful post.  I would agree with it on most accounts.  Certainly a marriage without respect is doomed.  (But get love AND respect in the same marriage and you have the best!)  The one thing I find difficult to accept about the whole head-of-household "thing" being dumped on the male boils down to choice.  The couple, in Islam, are given no choice, or so it appears to me.  Now, I don't doubt that the vast majority of households are quite happy with that arrangement.  Certainly that is how it would seem from casual observation.  But what about those exceptions?  What about those few cases who don't fit the mold?  Why should they be forced to do what doesn't work for them?  And I personally know of two different couples of which this could be said.  Why should the male be the one forced to represent the family to the world, etc., when he lacks the desire and ability to do so, especially when his wife is more than capable and willing to do it?  The same could be said of raising the children.  Should both be miserable when a simple switch of roles lands a win-win?  I know these may be extremes, but when one lays down blanket responsibilities based upon whether or not one has a Y or an X chromosome, one is forced to deal with the extremes.  And I haven't seen them dealt with, yet.     :( Struggling, Dawn

Re: Man the head honcho??
eleanor
04/24/02 at 11:26:12
[slm] as far as I'm aware, it's not that black and white. For instance if the husband and wife come to the conclusion that the woman is in fact better at making the decisions, then it's fine. In any marriage major discussions will always be decided after much discussion and at the end you never can pinpoint whose decision it was. I believe mutual respect and understanding are far more important. wasalaam eleanor  :-*

Re: Man the head honcho??
UmmWafi
04/24/02 at 22:37:12
Salaam Dawn [quote author=Dawn link=board=sis;num=1018978897;start=45#49 date=04/24/02 at 06:42:38] (But get love AND respect in the same marriage and you have the best!)[/quote] Of course it is but u have to be careful what kind of love u talk about.  Heh...else there wouldn't be talk of falling out of love would there ? :p [quote] The one thing I find difficult to accept about the whole head-of-household "thing" being dumped on the male boils down to choice.  The couple, in Islam, are given no choice, or so it appears to me.[/quote] Choice ? That very elusive pimpernel.  Dawn, look around you.  God gives us so much choice WITHIN a certain boundary.  God "dumped" childbearing abilities on the women.  Are u unhappy with that phenomenon ? Some men would find it unfair wouldn't they ? So should they reject a God because they can't get pregnant ? Some women find childbearing cumbersome so should they remove their womb and reject that God ? Answer is NO. Best solution is to accept God's wisdom and starts making choices about that situation. Despite not being able to give birth, the men could choose to participate in the child's development and growth. What makes u think that choice necessarily mean to be able to accept something or to reject it ? Choice can also mean to have the ability to decide on HOW to respond to a particular existence.  In some cases, that choice is not even given to the women. Take Catholicism and divorce. Awwww hon, us Muslims DO have the choice.  The choice to explore the many alternatives available to make our partnersip successful in this life and the Hereafter. Definitions and boundaries exist regardless of which God or faith u believe in. But its the methodology that differs. In Islam, we are guided to live our life the best possible way. Tell me Dawn, what does Christianity say abt the role of men and women in marriage, what Hnduism say about these roles ? I have studied both faiths...and I am sorry if I sound presumptious but Islam is the ONLY religion that teaches the men and the women to treat each other in the best possible manner (read Surah An-Nisaa' and the numerous hadiths of the Prophet SAW).   [quote]But what about those exceptions?  What about those few cases who don't fit the mold?  Why should they be forced to do what doesn't work for them?[/quote] I wonder what u mean when u say "why shd they do what doesn't work for them". What is it they are supposed to do that doesnt work ? The head of a household is just a title that means certain things.  What u do is your choice. I mean, my husband may be the head of household but how does automatically mean I hafta do what I don't like ?  Dawn..I think u are still unclear on this head of household thing. To sum up my previous post : husband is conferred title of head of household and he has to answer to God for how his family went. BUT couple decide how marriage should be run. If wife is smarter and wants to make decisions, so be it. AFTER mutual consensus . Similarly, husband seeks wife's advice before making decisions.  God gives us the choice to determine how our life is run within a certain boundary. Whats so unnatural abt that ? [quote] Why should the male be the one forced to represent the family to the world, etc., when he lacks the desire and ability to do so, especially when his wife is more than capable and willing to do it?  The same could be said of raising the children.  Should both be miserable when a simple switch of roles lands a win-win? [/quote] Uhhh exactly how do u mean present the family to the world ? Just checking so I know what u think.  And abt the issue of raising children. Switch of what roles ? In Islam, its very simple. We perform the role best suited for us in ensuring that the child is raised in the best possible manner. Ain't that beautiful ? Wassalam.

Re: Man the head honcho??
Dawn
04/25/02 at 04:17:35
[quote author=eleanor link=board=sis;num=1018978897;start=45#50 date=04/24/02 at 11:26:12] [slm] as far as I'm aware, it's not that black and white. For instance if the husband and wife come to the conclusion that the woman is in fact better at making the decisions, then it's fine. In any marriage major discussions will always be decided after much discussion and at the end you never can pinpoint whose decision it was. I believe mutual respect and understanding are far more important. wasalaam eleanor  :-*[/quote] If you could forward me [i]anything[/i], whether links, references, etc., that talks about it in anything other than black and white I would greatly, greatly appreciate it!  I have not read anything yet that seems to leave people a choice in the matter, but I sure would love to!

Re: Man the head honcho??
eleanor
04/25/02 at 05:30:26
[slm] I don't have any links references or otherwise, but having read numerous posts on this board, and knowing many Muslim couples, I have come to observe that all do what suits their situation best. As long as both parties are happy and they are not doing anything haraam then I don't see what the problem is. In Christianity the man is not only decreed the head of the household but the head of the wife, where in Islam men and women are equal partners. It must however be observed that the man will have the last word in any argument over  a decision... otherwise the same thing will go around in circles for years. But if the man is happy to go along with his wife's decision then there's nothing wrong with that either. He just has to make sure it really is a good decision, because he will be held responsible on the Day of Judgement. (and that's a load off of my back I can tell you... ) wasalaam eleanor  :-*

Re: Man the head honcho??
Dawn
04/25/02 at 08:58:32
[quote author=UmmWafi link=board=sis;num=1018978897;start=45#51 date=04/24/02 at 22:37:12]Salaam Dawn Of course it is but u have to be careful what kind of love u talk about.  Heh...else there wouldn't be talk of falling out of love would there ? :p[/quote] You've got 100% agreement from me here!!!!!!!! [quote]Choice ? That very elusive pimpernel.  Dawn, look around you.  God gives us so much choice WITHIN a certain boundary.  God "dumped" childbearing abilities on the women.  Are u unhappy with that phenomenon ? Some men would find it unfair wouldn't they ? So should they reject a God because they can't get pregnant ? Some women find childbearing cumbersome so should they remove their womb and reject that God ? Answer is NO. Best solution is to accept God's wisdom and start making choices about that situation. Despite not being able to give birth, the men could choose to participate in the child's development and growth.[/quote] God may have "dumped" childbearing abilities on women, as you say.  Most women seem quite happy about that, some are not.  For those that are happy about it, it is no big deal, unless they are also having trouble conceiving.  In which case, having a child can become an agonizing process of hormone treatment and invasive procedures, coupled with introspection and the consideration of life without children. (Been there, done that.)  Similarly, for those that are not happy about it, there is something they can do about it -- birth control, and it tends to be far easier, on average, than the other extreme, I can assure you.  There is also adoption for those who don't wish to bear children (whether for medical reasons or other reasons), but do wish to raise children.  These are all examples of HOW one can respond to a particular existence, as you discuss below -- an existence which is biologically determined. [quote]What makes u think that choice necessarily mean to be able to accept something or to reject it ? Choice can also mean to have the ability to decide on HOW to respond to a particular existence.  In some cases, that choice is not even given to the women. Take Catholicism and divorce. Awwww hon, us Muslims DO have the choice.  The choice to explore the many alternatives available to make our partnersip successful in this life and the Hereafter. Definitions and boundaries exist regardless of which God or faith u believe in. But its the methodology that differs. In Islam, we are guided to live our life the best possible way. Tell me Dawn, what does Christianity say abt the role of men and women in marriage, what Hnduism say about these roles ? I have studied both faiths...and I am sorry if I sound presumptious but Islam is the ONLY religion that teaches the men and the women to treat each other in the best possible manner (read Surah An-Nisaa' and the numerous hadiths of the Prophet SAW).[/quote] Don't worry, you are not going to hear me proponing any particular religion's idea of marriage and family.  Though it is worth saying now that the Islamic ideal is perhaps one of the best religious models I have seen.     [quote] I wonder what u mean when u say "why shd they do what doesn't work for them". What is it they are supposed to do that doesnt work ? The head of a household is just a title that means certain things.  What u do is your choice. I mean, my husband may be the head of household but how does automatically mean I hafta do what I don't like ?  Dawn..I think u are still unclear on this head of household thing. To sum up my previous post : husband is conferred title of head of household and he has to answer to God for how his family went. BUT couple decide how marriage should be run. If wife is smarter and wants to make decisions, so be it. AFTER mutual consensus . Similarly, husband seeks wife's advice before making decisions.  God gives us the choice to determine how our life is run within a certain boundary. Whats so unnatural abt that ?[/quote]  If I understand the head of household to be just a title, then why not get rid of it, as it has really no good positive connotations and several negative connotations?  But in reading about gender roles in Islam, it does not seem to me that it is just a title.  If I correctly understand it, in Islam, the title refers to the person who has the responsibility laid on him by God of being responsible to God (and to God only) for the family, and this person is the husband.  Now, unlike childbearing, this is something that is not tied a chromosome or anything.  This is external, an issue of belief only.  The only way out of this one for an Islamic man is not marrying.  I guess what I am saying is, what if the wife is the one who, through whatever better combination of personal traits, is better suited to be the one responsible.  Is it fair to the husband to still require him to shoulder this responsibility when this is the case, even if this responsibility is something only God can see and judge?  Should not God hold the one better suited to be so responsible?  Or hold them both responsible jointly?  Or hold each individually responsible according to her/his abilities?  I guess my dilemma is, that if Islam is to cover the whole of life, it needs to cover the exceptions too.  And when blanket responsibilities are placed based on gender, without clauses that deal with the unusual, then the whole of life is not covered, at least for those who fall in the "unusual" category.  I know that it is somewhat academic, and maybe most people aren't concerned with such details but, for better or worse, such details do matter to me. (That's probably the reason I went into Math in the first place.) [quote] Uhhh exactly how do u mean present the family to the world ? Just checking so I know what u think.  And abt the issue of raising children. Switch of what roles ? In Islam, its very simple. We perform the role best suited for us in ensuring that the child is raised in the best possible manner. Ain't that beautiful ? Wassalam.[/quote] I guess that by "present the family to the world" I would mean the one that is held primarily responsible for providing for the family, the one who has the last say on any decisions concerning the family as a whole, the one whose name is given to the children -- these sort of things.  This being said, there does not necessarily have to be a "one" who does all of these things, or the "one" could be different at different points of time, etc.  Not all families will have such a clear delineation of responsibilities.  Nonetheless, from what I have read, these are responsibilities which most Muslims seem to agree belong to the husband.  If I understand things correctly, however, the couple free to reassign such responsibilities as they so desire.  Am I seeing things correctly here? As for the roles, this is what I mean.  I have a couple of married friends (female) who do not (or did not) want children, but their husbands do (did).  I know both of the husbands as well, and it is clear that the men would be the better primary care givers.  And in one case, this is exactly what has happened.  He is a stay-at-home dad and his wife is the primary wage earner.  In the other case, they have no children yet, but they are planning on adopting and the husband is planning to stay home with the kids and only work part time.   I guess this is what I would refer to as role reversal within the family as it concerns primary care giver and primary wage earner.  Again, I do think that such situations are allowed within Islam, though I also know there are many Muslims that would disagree with me on that.  I also understand that, within Islam the wife is allowed to take on the "head of the household" as denoted by Western culture (as opposed to the Islamic definition), as one of the couples has done, if both husband and wife agree.  Again, I also realize that there are many Muslims who would disagree with me.   Oh, this one is way too long.  But I wanted to give examples to better clarify what I meant, and those of course take space.  I do hope I haven't totally muddied things rather than clarified things.  Please do correct things if need be! Peace, Dawn

Re: Man the head honcho??
Dawn
04/25/02 at 09:02:10
[quote author=eleanor link=board=sis;num=1018978897;start=45#53 date=04/25/02 at 05:30:26] It must however be observed that the man will have the last word in any argument over  a decision... otherwise the same thing will go around in circles for years. [/quote] Or you could do what me and my hubby do -- alternate!

Re: Man the head honcho??
eleanor
04/25/02 at 09:10:39
[slm] Exactly.. come to an understanding of which way works best for you... [quote]I guess what I am saying is, what if the wife is the one who, through whatever better combination of personal traits, is better suited to be the one responsible.  Is it fair to the husband to still require him to shoulder this responsibility when this is the case, even if this responsibility is something only God can see and judge? [/quote] Why don't you give an example of a potential "responsibility" situation here? I can't for the life of me see any man making a major decision, for example moving house, changing job, etc without first talking it over with his wife. That is only expected. And if the wife wants to move house or buy a new car or whatever, then she will talk it over with her husband too, and together they will decide what has to be done. If the husband is happy to stay home and his wife is happy to work, then I'm not sure what the problem is. I think the main danger is if the wife wanted to work for example and the husband were to forbid her, citing childcare as being her first priority, then she'd have to accept her role as mother and make a comprimise about working. hope this is understandable... ::) I tend to ramble as you may have guessed... :P wasalaam eleanor  :-*

Re: Man the head honcho??
Dawn
04/25/02 at 09:26:28
[quote author=eleanor link=board=sis;num=1018978897;start=45#56 date=04/25/02 at 09:10:39]Why don't you give an example of a potential "responsibility" situation here? I can't for the life of me see any man making a major decision, for example moving house, changing job, etc without first talking it over with his wife. That is only expected. And if the wife wants to move house or buy a new car or whatever, then she will talk it over with her husband too, and together they will decide what has to be done. [/quote] I was speaking here of the general responsibility in Islam that the husband is given for how his family has developed, behaved, worked, played, lived, etc.  This is a responsibility to God alone, as I see it, and is not responsibility for a particular situation, but for a sum of situations.  At least that is how I envision it.  Perhaps I am wrong here.

Re: Man the head honcho??
UmmWafi
05/09/02 at 23:41:27
[slm] Dear Dawn I am so sorry that I have taken so very long to reply to your post.  The last few weeks of school is hectic.  I am even now commuting back and forth Singapore and KL weekly to see my professors regarding my term papers.  Insya'Allah, I will reply something helpful soonest I can. In the meantime, hugs to you for being the sweet person u are. Wassalam. Olin the Haggard.
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