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Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| Demos, what a waste of time and money! |
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| mujaahid |
| 04/16/02 at 13:56:07 |
| Dont wanna spoil the fun guys, but what exactly did this demonstration Achieve? The Palestinians are still being murdered. They are still being pulverised, and massacred, while we here shout a few empty slogans against israel. The Israeli's will be laughuing, thinking "look at these muslims, we kill and murder thier people and all they can do is shake thier fists at us and chant a few slogans and burn our flags, that dont bother us"!!! Come on guys, why are you wasting your time doing this? I dont remember the Companions of the prophet Muhammed (saw) doing this! I dont remeber Salahuddin and his mujaahideen doing protests agianst the murderers, they took up weapions and went to fight them. Imagine how much money people spent to get down to the demo. Now wouldnt it have been more productive and useful to the palestinians if this money was sent to help them rebuild thier homes and cities and pay for medical aid? Empty slogans, screaming and shouting is gona do NOTHING to help the palestinians, because while you do that here, over thier, they are still being killed. Now everyones feeling really good about doing thier bit, shouting thier slogans, and they go home feeling happy, but over in palestine, the muslims are still being massacred. Dont wish to break the bad news, but your demonstration has achieved NOTHING. You got a 10 second mention on the news. Wow. Is that it? What do you have to show for your efforts? Nothing. Jihad is the solution to end the suffering of the Palestinians. Not protests. Jihad. Take up arms against the Zionists. They dont kill palestinioans by demonstrating, they impose thier will with thier weapons. So shouldnt the muslims defend their people with weapons? Or will you prefer to walk down the street shouting hoping its gona change things? |
| Re: Demos, what a waste of time and money! |
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| ascetic |
| 04/16/02 at 15:05:17 |
| Assalam Aleikum, From http://www.muslims.net/fatwaapplication/english/display.asp?hFatwaID=68339 : Question: "It was stated to me today that it was against the 'Sunnah" to rally and protest. We want to do something to help the Muslims in Palestine, so we decided to hold a peaceful protest. Is this permissible?" Answer: "... Having said that, I would conclude that it is allowed for Muslims to stage demonstrations to resist the enemy and win the world public opinion to support the Palestinian cause." Sheikh Munajjid also adds: "However, demonstrations may involve a number of things that are forbidden in the Shari`ah. Hence, it is essential to guard against them." Having said that, I would like to add that the rally in San Francisco (on Apr 5 orgainzed by United Muslims of America) was not held with Islamic concerns in mind. There was free mixing between men/women and a lot of inappropriate slogan-shouting. Wassalam. |
| 04/16/02 at 15:15:13 |
| ascetic |
| Re: Demos, what a waste of time and money! |
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| SisterHania |
| 04/16/02 at 16:05:17 |
| [slm] [quote author=mujaahid link=board=ummah;num=1018985020;start=0#0 date=04/16/02 at 13:56:07]Dont wanna spoil the fun guys, but what exactly did this demonstration Achieve? [/quote] Don’t wanna spoil your fun mujaahid, but what exactly does this post Achieve? [quote author=mujaahid link=board=ummah;num=1018985020;start=0#0 date=04/16/02 at 13:56:07] Come on guys, why are you wasting your time doing this? I dont remember the Companions of the prophet Muhammed (saw) doing this! I dont remeber Salahuddin and his mujaahideen doing protests agianst the murderers, they took up weapions and went to fight them. [/quote] Come on mujaahid, why are you wasting your time on the Internet writing these posts? I dont remember the Companions of the prophet Muhammed (saw) doing this! I dont remeber Salahuddin and his mujaahideen sitting on the Internet all day writing negative comments about his own brothers, they took up weapions and went to fight them. [quote author=mujaahid link=board=ummah;num=1018985020;start=0#0 date=04/16/02 at 13:56:07]Imagine how much money people spent to get down to the demo. Now wouldnt it have been more productive and useful to the palestinians if this money was sent to help them rebuild thier homes and cities and pay for medical aid? Empty slogans, screaming and shouting is gona do NOTHING to help the palestinians, because while you do that here, over thier, they are still being killed. [/quote] Imagine how much money you spend on your Intenet bill. Now wouldnt it have been more productive and useful to the palestinians if the time you spent on the Internet was time spent raising funds through charity work and this money was sent to help them rebuild thier homes and cities and pay for medical aid?? Negative posts, screaming and shouting is gona do NOTHING to help the palestinians, because while you do that here, over thier, they are still being killed. [quote author=mujaahid link=board=ummah;num=1018985020;start=0#0 date=04/16/02 at 13:56:07]Now everyones feeling really good about doing thier bit, shouting thier slogans, and they go home feeling happy, but over in palestine, the muslims are still being massacred. [/quote] Now you’re feeling really good about criticising other Muslims who try and support their brothers and sisters in a way they are able to, and you go home feeling happy, but over in palestine, the muslims are still being massacred. [quote author=mujaahid link=board=ummah;num=1018985020;start=0#0 date=04/16/02 at 13:56:07]Dont wish to break the bad news, but your demonstration has achieved NOTHING. You got a 10 second mention on the news. Wow. Is that it? [/quote] Dont wish to break the bad news, but your negative post has achieved SOMETHING. You got a mention on the board and made people feel depressed. Wow. Isn't that great? [quote author=mujaahid link=board=ummah;num=1018985020;start=0#0 date=04/16/02 at 13:56:07]What do you have to show for your efforts? Nothing. Jihad is the solution to end the suffering of the Palestinians. Not protests. Jihad. Take up arms against the Zionists. They dont kill palestinioans by demonstrating, they impose thier will with thier weapons. So shouldnt the muslims defend their people with weapons? [/quote] So why don’t you go and fight mujaahid??. [quote author=mujaahid link=board=ummah;num=1018985020;start=0#0 date=04/16/02 at 13:56:07]Or will you prefer to walk down the street shouting hoping its gona change things?[/quote] Or will you prefer to put down fellow Muslims behind your computer screen hoping its gona change things |
| 04/16/02 at 16:13:46 |
| SisterHania |
| Re: Demos, what a waste of time and money! |
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| BroHanif |
| 04/16/02 at 18:28:14 |
| [slm] Nice reply Sis Hania. Demos do acheive something. Think about this brothers and sisters from all walks of life getting together for the cause. Just think couple of years ago, muslims of different cultures wouldn't even speak to others.... but now everyone has one voice, one worry. Nobodys saying that don't do Jihad, the demo is the least people could do, and remember not everyone is the same. Not everyone thinks the same way as you do that all the solutions will be solved via an AK-47. Masha-allah, a lot of brothers in Dewsbury and Batley have now become more stronger in educating the people of the oppression and injustice of what Israel does, remember when you present your argument you've got to win them over. And perhaps this is where many of us lack, many of us just get frustrated and shrug our shoulders and say what can we do or have a knee jerk reaction. However, as you have mentioned the great Salahudin Ayubi, let me tell you it took him 9 years of planning and building the people to win over the Masjid Al-Aqsa. Thats what we need to do as well, there is no point in saying lets do this or that and its life is only short term, we need to plan, think ahead and plan for the future, not just today with an AK-47. Success is not just a day event, its a life long goal. salaams Hanif |
| Re: Demos, what a waste of time and money! |
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| Kashif |
| 04/16/02 at 18:38:02 |
| assalaamu alaikum wa rahmatullah There are parts that i agree with from whats been posted already and other parts i disagree with, although, this discussion has occurred before on the board. And i think there are pros and cons to going to these protests/demonstrations and anti-war meetings. The cons, in *my* opinion are as follows: -- First and most importantly, protests don't change government policy. Period. And it would be naive to believe otherwise. The Vietnam episode and other occurrences during that time give glimpses of how the government can and WILL act if the masses get a little too rowdy. I'm referring to incidents in 1970 when in one place the National Guard shot 13 students involved in an anti-Vietnam protest, and in another occurrence fired 400 shots at student dormitories. Governments in the West can maintain the facade of being civilised because, by and large there isn't popular civil disobedience of a large enough nature to impact government plans. But you wait till enough people step out of line and you'll see exactly how civilised these governments are and how much effect you really have on their policies. A friend of mine wrote elsewhere: [color=black]It is also important to consider the limitations of even mass activism if it primarily seeks to 'voice' opposition; the power structure has become considerably less vulnerable to, and thus, less responsive to, public opinion. Policy decisions are largely made in the corporate board room, not the Oval Office; and of course CEO's are not accountable to the general public. Further, it is important to recognize, I think, that the 'War on Terrorism,' despite any moral misgivings that some activists may have, is frankly a necessary measure for the US to maintain the American consumptive lifestyle. Even public protest will not change that reality, and policy is therefore not likely to be changed.[/color] -- People come back feeling they have done something, achieved something, and kind of feel happy with themselves for what they did. But going back to the above point, what they actually did achieve .. only Allah knows. And looking at it from this aspect, one may argue that protests have a net negative effect. For example, when you shake a pepsi bottle, the pressure inside builds. Then you open it up, it goes all over the place and then back to a state of calmness - neatly summarising how protestors are. They get mad at what they see on TV and because of what they hear, then they go out on a march, say some takbeers, chant death to Israel, and at the end of the day they go home and its back to a state of mental sleep. If we are going to protest, there needs to be some kind of feedback system such that practising Muslims can get in touch with non-practising people after the protest and keep them active afterwards. The pros are these: -- Protests can have an effect on public opinion. Its important that Muslims be seen in the frontline for standing up for all oppressed people, regardless of race and religion. As Muslims, it should be part of our being that we desire good for every human being. -- As the noose tightens around Islamic organisations and activists, its important we build links with people who are on the 'outside'; people who share some of our goals but aren't Muslims. Why? Because if we end up being jailed on trumped up charges, or secret evidence, we will require the help of such people to campaign to get us out, and to fight for the consitutional rights that we have as citizens of Westen societies. I don't really buy the argument that we shouldn't go because there is a lot of free-mixing that goes on at such events because living in the West we are used to free mixing. It happens at school, at work, when you're shopping. Thus, the free mixing that does go on is unfortunate for us as Muslims, but not something that should inspire a *shock* *horror* reaction from us. However, i did receive a distressing e-mail from a friend the other day who highlighted something i've never seen before: [color=black]Also one issues that strikes my heart and really makes me want to go home defeated is, the immaturity of the people. You have brothers arguing with Police, using curse words not allowed in the Shari3ah, blocking streets causing harm to people innocent of the problem, and worst the brothers with the earrings, tattoos, and the sisters with tight shirts with their chest showing and pants painted on. Worst of all you see the guys and girls exchange phone numbers while looking around to see who is watching from behind a tree. Do you feel no shame? I look at this and feel ashamed to look up in the sky and ask Allah for victory. Why should he give us victory? If you step back and physically look at that scene will Allah want those people victorious? Or would he rather Muslims be oppressed at least their closer to Allah in their prayers and modesty. So one can say at the end of the day, I need to protest myself I am causing the Muslims this. If you are not praying 5 times a day then you are one of the direct reasons we are in this situation...[/color] Kashif Wa Salaam |
| NS |
| 04/16/02 at 18:41:57 |
| Kashif |
| Re: Demos, what a waste of time and money! |
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| mujaahid |
| 04/17/02 at 04:58:31 |
| [slm] Hania "Don’t wanna spoil your fun mujaahid, but what exactly does this post Achieve?" fun? I'm trying to make you guys see that your protests are doing NOTHING to help the palestinians. Your not doing it for showing solidarity with them, your doing it because you think it will change policies. It wont. "Come on mujaahid, why are you wasting your time on the Internet writing these posts?" I dont waste much time on the net. "I dont remember the Companions of the prophet Muhammed (saw) doing this! I dont remeber Salahuddin and his mujaahideen sitting on the Internet all day writing negative comments about his own brothers, they took up weapions and went to fight them" Ooo took up weapons eh? So why dont we do that? oh no, lets go to london on a nice cosy bus and chant a few slogans are think we're really brave. "Imagine how much money you spend on your Intenet bill." i dont, its free at work!! "Now wouldnt it have been more productive and useful to the palestinians if the time you spent on the Internet was time spent raising funds through charity work and this money was sent to help them rebuild thier homes and cities and pay for medical aid??" I agree, and i already do! So why dont you join the caravan! "Negative posts, screaming and shouting is gona do NOTHING to help the palestinians, because while you do that here, over thier, they are still being killed." Yes, i did say that, and isnt it true? OR did your great protest force the israeli's to pull out of palestinian tanks, did it make the israeli's apologise to the palestinians and rebuild thier homes for them? Did it get the thousands who have been detained, released? "Now you’re feeling really good about criticising other Muslims who try and support their brothers and sisters in a way they are able to, and you go home feeling happy, but over in palestine, the muslims are still being massacred" Yes they are still being massacred, and you think your protests are gona change that? Why not actually see if your protest has done anything? It hasnt. Nothings changed. Nothing. " Dont wish to break the bad news, but your negative post has achieved SOMETHING. You got a mention on the board" Is that what you think this is all about? Me trying to get a mention kn the boards? While you completely miss the purpose of what i'm trying to say? "and made people feel depressed." Did I? Or maybe i made you realise that your protest has in fact achieved nothing to help the palestinians, maybe that is whats making you feel depressed. You see, your angry and hurt by what i said, because since the protest, everyones been hyped up, think how much they achieved, thinking how things are gona change, you all got caught up in the emotional rollercoaster of being surrounded by tens of thousands of muslims, not realiseng that in fact, while you were protesting, the palestinians were still being massacred. Now you have come down to earth, actually look at what its achived. I dont want this thread to start turning into some slanging match, thats not why i started it. I started it to make you guys realise that all your efforts have come to nothing. You got a feel good factor out of it, but nothing you guys done changed anything for the palestinians. "So why don’t you go and fight mujaahid??." I would love to go and fight, but how? As soon as i try and get into Palestine, i'd be arrested by the "muslim" countries. If any Arab state declares war on Israel, just watch as thousands of muslims across the world head to palestine for a Jihad. Inshallah, once the people return to the deen, and the leaders represent the poeple, than the time will be right to launch a Jihad to help liberate palestine. "Or will you prefer to put down fellow Muslims behind your computer screen hoping its gona change things " Dont start making snide remarks hania. I am simply trying to get you to see that your efforts have not done anything practical. Sorry if that offended you, but its a fact. |
| Re: Demos, what a waste of time and money! |
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| Kashif |
| 04/17/02 at 05:34:12 |
| [color=red]assalaamu alaikum Anymore bickering and this thread will be locked. Kashif Wa Salaam [/color] |
| NS |
| Re: Demos, what a waste of time and money! |
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| BrKhalid |
| 04/17/02 at 06:24:57 |
| Asalaamu Alaikum Okay lets get some sort of perspective here. We, as Muslims residing outside of Palestine, need to do something for our Brothers and Sisters out there. No one is going to disagree with that statement. How we do that exactly, is what it is up for discussion. If people want to demonstrate so be it. If people want to give money so be it. If people want to write to their MP's so be it. If people want to boycott Israeli goods so be it. If people want to go over there and help defend the Palestinians so be it. If people want to make dua to Allah so be it. If people want to do all the above so be it. We all have our own views as to how we can best help. As long as we do something within the confines of Islam, what's the problem? We really have to get out of this mentality of criticising someone's actions because it doesn't conform to our own views. As my Imam once said to me, if you have two groups both trying to achieve the same objective but going about in different ways then what's the problem? As long as both are working within the confines of Islam it doesn't matter. What's really destructive and disunites us more than anything is when someone says we have to do things a certain way and reject all other methods of dealing with a problem. If you don't agree with your Brother over how he does things, then that's fine, but please don't criticise him. There is nothing that disunites us more. [hr] Coming back to the discussion of the benefit of these type of demonstrations. One thing which bemuses me endlessly is why we are concerned with whether we are successful or not in our actions. Narrated 'Umar bin Al-Khattab: Allah's Apostle said, "The reward of deeds depends upon the intention and every person will get the reward according to what he has intended. So whoever emigrated for Allah and His Apostle, then his emigration was for Allah and His Apostle. And whoever emigrated for worldly benefits or for a woman to marry, his emigration was for what he emigrated for." [Bukhari] Allah knows the intention of every single person who goes on a demonstration in support of Palestine and it is Allah alone who will inshaAllah grant the reward for it. That is indeed the true success, the reward from Allah and not from any government. For let's not deceive ourselves and remember that it is Allah who will change the situation in Palestine and no one else. Moving from spiritual to political, I think examples in history have shown that demonstrations on a mass scale have indeed changed government policy. The Brits will remember the mass demonstrations against the poll tax in the late 80's which not only changed government policy but also kicked Thatcher out of office. And what about the huge demonstrations night after night from the peoples of Eastern Europe which ultimately led to the destruction of the Berlin Wall and the end of communism I say this again, however, that protests are not the be all and end all. It is just one way for us to do something. For those who disagree, that's fine. Please let's just pull together and concentrate on helping our Brothers and Sisters out there. Wasalaam Br Khalid |
| 04/17/02 at 06:28:12 |
| BrKhalid |
| Re: Demos, what a waste of time and money! |
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| Kashif |
| 04/17/02 at 07:10:34 |
| eh? Poll tax protests? All i see is that chanced its name from "poll tax" to "Council Tax" and some other cosmetic changes. But otherwise, i think your post was really beneficial masha'allah. Kashif Wa Salaam |
| NS |
| Re: Demos, what a waste of time and money! |
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| Maliha |
| 04/17/02 at 08:03:40 |
| [slm] I am personally for Demonstrations and *any* other means of helping the cause. Isn't there a hadith that says (paraphrase) change a situation using your hands, if you can't speak out against it, and if you can't even do that then condemn in your hearts and that's the weakest of faiths? My helplessness in tackling tanks, missles, and nuclear weapons should not keep me from at least voicing my opinion in public together with my millions of brothers and sisters. None of the movements in history took place silently. If it takes showing the world the animalistic side of the so called "civilized governments" so be it. But hiding in the shadows while people are being massacred, and having a defeatist attitude will certainly not get us anywhere. Lastly, lets please not criticize each other, our disunity is the cause of our downfall. Maliha [wlm] |
| Re: Demos, what a waste of time and money! |
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| mujaahid |
| 04/17/02 at 09:07:42 |
| [slm] Bro Khalid your missing thew point once again! Its not about what we feel we should be doing, its about what actually works. Now you demontrated on saturday right? Yes? Are the palestinians still being murdered today? yes they are. So what did your protest achieve? All those in favour of protests continue to miss the key point and that is that the protests do NOT help the palestinians. They give people a false sense of effort. People feel they have done something beneficial to the muslims of palestine, but the reality is that they havnt, nothing for the palestinians has changed. Protests give the protesters a feel good factor, yet they do nothing to stop the terrorism against the Palestinians!! As a show of solidarity, i have NOTHING agianst protests, BUT if your protesting, hoping its gona change whats going on, then how wrong you are. NOTHING will change from as a result of the protests. The sooner muslims realise that, the better. Because when we stop wasting our time doing pointless things, then we will spend our time doing things that really matter, things that will really make a difference. |
| criticism is easy |
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| se7en |
| 04/17/02 at 10:10:49 |
| as salaamu alaykum, [quote]The sooner muslims realise that, the better. Because when we stop wasting our time doing pointless things, then we will spend our time doing things that really matter, things that will really make a difference. [/quote] Then the question that needs to be asked here is.. what *would* be effective? What would really make a difference? I think Imam Zaid answers this question really well in a lecture he gave recently that you can check out here: [url]http://www.jannah.org/jannahradio/imamzaidvision.ram[/url] Listen to it, reflect on it. Imam Zaid tells it like it is. wasalaamu alaykum wa rahmatAllah. |
| 04/17/02 at 10:15:35 |
| se7en |
| Re: Demos, what a waste of time and money! |
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| BrKhalid |
| 04/17/02 at 10:13:06 |
| Asalaamu Alaikum ;-) [quote]As a show of solidarity, i have NOTHING agianst protests[/quote] Good. You can come down to the next one on May 18 and show your solidarity ;-) |
| Re: Demos, what a waste of time and money! |
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| ltcorpest2 |
| 04/17/02 at 10:29:55 |
| mujahiid, maybe someday when you have time maybe you can share your details of the jihads you have participated in. maybe we can see by your example of how it is done. |
| Re: Demos, what a waste of time and money! |
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| sofia |
| 04/17/02 at 11:21:07 |
| As-salaamu 'alaikum wa rahmatullah - I was just talking to someone about this topic. We, as Muslims living in the West, seem to have some kind of psychosis where we believe we're helping to change things for the better by participating in rallies, when really, we're just about as useless as anyone else. However - I do agree with bro Kashif's and BrKhalids points. It is in the intentions and there may be some good in it, insha'Allah (considering what we would be doing otherwise) if we do other things to actually strengthen our reserve and protest immorality (by/against Muslims or non-Muslims). While I'm not looking forward to hearing people yell and scream (not really becoming of a "peace" demonstration) and display otherwise un-Islamic behavior, I *am* looking forward to hearing what other peace activists have to say about the situation, what others have done, seeing the Muslim community and non-Muslim community come together and build some ties, and hopefully seeing *some* media/reporters there, insha'Allah. Also, I think we, as Muslims, miss too many opportunities to do this type of thing for other oppressed groups. I don't think it's worth it to just go yell and march and come back home. We need to actually notify our local news/papers, say collective du'aa (excellent suggestion by sister M.F., I think), write/call our local reps in addition to actually yelling and marching and coming back home. In MD/VA there will be a pre-rally qiyaams to purify intentions and make du'aa that the "demo" will achieve some positive results, insha'Allah. Allah knows best, may He improve our conditions, aameen. |
| NS |
| Re: Demos, what a waste of time and money! |
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| M.F. |
| 04/17/02 at 11:50:02 |
| Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullah, Clearly, a demonstration held in New York or Morocco doesn't stop Palestinians from getting killed. That's obvious and if that's the point Mujaahid was trying to make then he's right. However, a demonstration of support does help. It does a LOT to boost the Palestians' morale and that helps them a lot to cope with the horror they're going through. Ma sha Allah they're very strong and knowing that people are supporting them at least by showing their numbers and anger helps. I don't think it's a "feel good factor" for the protestors. I think most of them feel terrible that that's all they can do. I know I did. I wished that at LEAST they would have made du'a (and I know a lot did) cause that would have really helped. |
| Re: Demos, what a waste of time and money! |
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| mujaahid |
| 04/17/02 at 13:50:42 |
| [slm] I agree with Sofia and MF's points. The protests as a means to help stop the massacres are next to useless, and i think if everyone was honest, they would admit this. As a form of showing solidarity, then i am not against that. However i think the palestinians would rather have money and aid coming into them rather then a few screams of support. Also, i saw those pictures of the demo on TV. What was going one? Were those muslims marching? Muslimah's screaming and wailing and behaving in ways they should not? Brothers jumping on monuments and wailing and behaving like animals screaming and growling and jumping up and down in angre? Is that what you feel is "support" for the palestinians? Is it? While the Israeli's drag palestinian women out thier house by their hair, while israeli troops get palestinian men to kneel then shoot them in the back of the head, all you people do is jump up and down in angre? Those brothers doing that, obviosuly have a lot of energy in them, why not make better use of it by going to jihad camps, or going to the war zones and carry out aid work, humanitarian work? Wouldnt that be more helpful to the palestinians? You went home. What happened to the palestinians when you went home, had your warm cooked meals, then went to bed in your big, comfortable beds, in peace and harmony? The palestinians were being massacred. What did your protest achieve? Sadly, nothing much. All that money you spent travelling thier, why not use it for medical aid, or to pay for military equipment for the palestinians, or to send young brothers to jihad training camps? Where they can REALLY make a difference? Se7en We make a difference by understand what Allah (awj) says, and implementing it. When you leave your religion, abondon it, Allah will humiliate the muslims on this dunya. And the only way to put it right, is to return to the deen. To return to doing what we as muslims should do. That is Start praying 5 times a day, start gaining knowledge on the deen, give to charity, educate your family and friends in the deen, get all the poeple around you living islaam, when muslim communities start living islaam, start following the fundamentals of Islaam, when ever muslim youth has a beard, every muslim woman wear the hijab, when most muslims leave whatever thier do when its time for Salat(prayer), then you will start seeing the difference, then the Ummah will start receiving the bounties or Allahs mercy, than EVERYTHING will fall into place, then poeple will not be able to come between the muslims, then we will have leaders who represent the people, meaning we will have leaders living and leading by Islaam, then watch as everything falls into place. Until then, we can scream and shout and wiggle our backsides at rallies as much as we like, because nothing is gona change. Allah(awj) does NOT ask us to start protesting and rallying and behaving like hooligans when we are being persecuted, and suffering, he tells us to return to the deen, fully. When we start doing what Allah commands, then we receive the rewards. I dont want people to respond to this if your gona get abusive. Only if you wanna have a proper discussion. The bickering, hair pulling, scratching and wrestling isnt gona get us anywhere. |
| Re: Demos, what a waste of time and money! |
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| humble_muslim |
| 04/17/02 at 14:27:18 |
| [slm] "Start praying 5 times a day, start gaining knowledge on the deen, give to charity, educate your family and friends in the deen, get all the poeple around you living islaam, when muslim communities start living islaam, start following the fundamentals of Islaam, when ever muslim youth has a beard, every muslim woman wear the hijab, when most muslims leave whatever thier do when its time for Salat(prayer), then you will start seeing the difference, then the Ummah will start receiving the bounties or Allahs mercy, than EVERYTHING will fall into place, then poeple will not be able to come between the muslims, then we will have leaders who represent the people, meaning we will have leaders living and leading by Islaam, then watch as everything falls into place. " I've been thinking about this for a long time. On this point, I am in total agreement with you Mujahhid - that once the muslims become better muslims, then Inshallah everything will change. And I believe that as muslims living in the west, one of the best things we can do for our opressed brothers and sisters is to do more good deeds, and encourage others to do the same. But one thing I cannot understand, and would dearly love someone to explain to me. The vast majority of people living in Saudi Arabia do all the above, and probably more. And mashAllah, people living there are blessed (at least from a dunya point of view). Yet the international standing of Saudi Arabia is one of complete loss of dignity, where the Saudi government is openly declaring itself to be a friend of America, and priding itself to be like that, while doing very little (considering its resources) for the muslim Ummah. Can someone please explain this paradox ? (No rhetoric about what you think of the Saudi royal family, please). I mean if what Mujahhid says is true (and I agree with him), then surely the Saudi people would have woken up long ago and done something ? The only thing that comes to mind is that Allah SWT has indeed blessed the Saudi people collectively because of their deeds, but has not blessed the rest of the Ummah. |
| NS |
| Re: Demos, what a waste of time and money! |
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| Maliha |
| 04/17/02 at 15:33:26 |
| [quote author=The humble muslim link=board=ummah;num=1018985020;start=15#18 date=04/17/02 at 14:27:18] [slm] The only thing that comes to mind is that Allah SWT has indeed blessed the Saudi people collectively because of their deeds, but has not blessed the rest of the Ummah. [/quote] [slm] I would be careful not to make such a general statement like that. I mean who is to say who Allah has blessed and not? Who is to say Saudi's have more good deeds in general than the rest of the ummah? There is so much going on in Saudia that's anti Islam too and I don't see how it differs from Muslims anywhere...Mashaallah Muslims in the West have been blessed by all the dunya comforts too, does that make us any better Muslims? Maliha [wlm] |
| NS |
| 04/17/02 at 15:36:14 |
| Maliha |
| Re: Demos, what a waste of time and money! |
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| humble_muslim |
| 04/17/02 at 16:30:51 |
| [slm] Maliha, forgive me if you misunderstood, I am not saying Allah SWT really has blessed the Saudi people, but that was just one explaination of what's going on. Let us not forget that Allah SWT says in the Quran that giving people dunya may be a way of letting them commit more sins. As for whether Saudis are better than other muslims, let's look at Muhajidd's check list : - Start praying 5 times a day They do this - Start gaining knowledge on the deen Most Saudis know their deen well and understan deen as opposed to culture - Give to charity Not sure ? - Educate your family and friends in the deen Very good Islamic education system in the schools - When ever muslim youth has a beard Most adult men do - Every muslim woman wear the hijab They all do that - When most muslims leave whatever thier do when its time for Salat(prayer) They all do that. I know a lot of people are anti-Saudi because of the "Wahabbi" factor, but I don't think this should cause people to ignore their good deeds. |
| NS |
| Re: Demos, what a waste of time and money! |
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| explorer |
| 04/17/02 at 17:22:48 |
| [quote author=mujaahid link=board=ummah;num=1018985020;start=15#17 date=04/17/02 at 13:50:42]All that money you spent travelling thier, why not use it for medical aid, or to pay for military equipment for the palestinians, or to send young brothers to jihad training camps? Where they can REALLY make a difference? [/quote] Wheres the nearest Jihad training camp? :) Believe me theres no shortage of $$$'s for military equipment for Palestinians. Syria, Iran and Iraq have massive stockpiles ready to enter at moments notice. The sticky point is evading the tight Israeli security to get the equipment *into* the areas (West Bank, Gaza). Some shipments get through, others get intercepted. Mujaahid, what you say about protests not stopping the killings is true. However what we must remember is this show of support is a first small step of many on a path to eventually making a practical difference. Many people who attended left in the early hours of a Saturday morning to participate. They didn't have to, but getting off their butts and making the journey shows their determination and while this time it was expressed in this form and was unproductive to some, maybe this determination will drive them to go a step further next time. One cannot learn how to run until he learns how to walk. I'm sure eveyone who participated in these protests have and continue to donate money towards palestine so the issue of wasting money on demonstrations is not feasible here. |
| 04/17/02 at 17:24:11 |
| explorer |
| Re: Demos, what a waste of time and money! |
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| Kashif |
| 04/17/02 at 19:08:30 |
| assalaamu alaikum wa rahmatullah Humble Muslim, masha'allah an interesting question, and ultimately only Allah knows its answer. One could speculate that victory from Allah comes only when one has wholeheartedly submitted to Him, azza wa jall, and as a government, the Saudis haven't. They have lent their bases to non-Muslim forces to fight other Muslim nations, they haven't used the means that Allah has blessed them with, whereby, they could hold entire nations to ransom to do good as they could have (i.e. with oil). Furthermore, what the population faces is something that writers sometimes call the 'hideous schizophrenia' whereby, the country with all its religious symbols has a profound effect on people's lives, yet at the same time, there is growing consumerist symbolism. For example, you can come out of the Prophet sallallahu alaihi wa sallam's mosque and immediately be confronted by signs for KFC or Chanel perfume. So you have people being pulled in two opposite directions.. Kashif Wa Salaam |
| NS |
| Re: Demos, what a waste of time and money! |
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| BrKhalid |
| 04/18/02 at 05:25:01 |
| Asalaamu Alaikum ;-) [quote]I dont want people to respond to this if your gona get abusive. Only if you wanna have a proper discussion. The bickering, hair pulling, scratching and wrestling isnt gona get us anywhere[/quote] I'm glad you agree Brother Mujaahid. I think you're posting style needed changing. Now to carry on the discussion...... [quote]When we start doing what Allah commands, then we receive the rewards.[/quote] So given your words above, what exactly is wrong with doing the above *and* demonstrating? [quote]Are the palestinians still being murdered today? yes they are. So what did your protest achieve? [/quote] Excuse me for sounding facetious but are you really that naïve to think that a protest in London on Saturday would stop the attacks on Sunday? I would hope not. Think Brother, use your intellect, and reflect on why people participate in these demonstrations. Ask yourself why it can be something more than a show of solidarity and how it can actually benefit the Muslims in Palestine. Let me know what you come up with. |
| Re: Demos, what a waste of time and money! |
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| M.F. |
| 04/18/02 at 05:42:58 |
| [quote author=The humble muslim link=board=ummah;num=1018985020;start=15#19 date=04/17/02 at 16:30:51] [slm] As for whether Saudis are better than other muslims, let's look at Muhajidd's check list : - Start praying 5 times a day They do this - Start gaining knowledge on the deen Most Saudis know their deen well and understan deen as opposed to culture - Give to charity Not sure ? - Educate your family and friends in the deen Very good Islamic education system in the schools - When ever muslim youth has a beard Most adult men do - Every muslim woman wear the hijab They all do that - When most muslims leave whatever thier do when its time for Salat(prayer) They all do that. I know a lot of people are anti-Saudi because of the "Wahabbi" factor, but I don't think this should cause people to ignore their good deeds. [/quote] Assalamu alaikum Not ALL Saudis match up against this checklist. They don't ALL pray 5 times a day. Whether or not they wear a beard is NOT necessarily a sign of piety, a LOT of women there wear hijab because they don't wanna get beat up by their violent police. My first impression of Saudis when I arrived in Jeddah airport was: Wow, these saudis SMOKE! A LOT!!! Most of the women who work in the Haram are ROUGH! RUDE! The men there if they see women walking alone (even two or three women and even with older women) just DEVOUR her with their eyes (I HATED this), let alone if she happened to ask a shopkeeper for something. The woman who did the body search on me in the jeddah airport touched ONLY my private parts (upper and lower) in a seductive swoop of her hand which disgusted me and made we want to through up but I was told that that was common there. All the shopkeepers closed their shops when prayer time came, like in the malls, but the malls were selling all this junky western clothing.... There are so many contradictions there it's above my understanding. And don't forget, just like good deeds are multiplied in Makkah, so are sins. When people match mujaahid's checklist willingly, not because they'll get beaten up for it, then maybe Allah will give us strength and victory. |
| NS |
| Re: Demos, what a waste of time and money! |
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| Maliha |
| 04/18/02 at 08:15:32 |
| [slm] I agree with M.F. there is a general idealization of life in saudi Arabia by outsiders that has little to do with the reality of men throwing phone numbers at women, girls and boys exchanging mobile texts in malls, and even people leaving in Ramadhan to go to countries like Ethiopia and such so they won't have to fast! Work conditions for foreigners who are *Muslims* are horrible to say the least and the list goes on... I don't want to seem Saudi bashing but we need to wake up to the reality that the sickness that pervades the ummah is everywhere... May Allah purify us, guide us and protect us all the way to Jannah (Amin)... On the issue of demonstrating what's a better scenario...People getting killed and we just sit and wait for our "turn to join the jihad"... Or Us organizing and showing our concerns, duahs and support for our fellow brothers and sisters in mass? Maliha [wlm] |
| Re: Demos, what a waste of time and money! |
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| Nazia |
| 04/25/02 at 18:18:43 |
| [quote]Its not about what we feel we should be doing, its about what actually works. Now you demontrated on saturday right? Yes? Are the palestinians still being murdered today? yes they are. [/quote] You donated money right? you make Dua for the Palestinians, right? Is their still fighting in Palestine? Yes there is. Does that mean you stop donating money? Does that mean you stop making dua? I don't understand your logic. What do rallies do? For the most part, they motivate people. What do people who are motivated do? MAYBE they take additional steps to help their cause! MAYBE these people will be motivated to donate more than they had initially anticipated. MAYBE they will make more dua then they were making before. MAYBE they will write more letters to their congressman then they did before. MAYBE they will educate more people about the situation in Palestine. Maybe they will even go to Palestine and see how they can physically help. Then MAYBE one day, if enough people did all of the above, the situation would improve, and the lives of our innocent brothers and sisters would be saved. So isn't it worth it? We all have to start somewhere And honestly, if someone believes that rallies truly do help change government policies, then what is it to anyone else?! Let them think that! One day, they may just be right. And we don't want to be asked why we ever discouraged someone from doing something good. Much like everyone else, I just don't understand the point of your negativity. No ONE thing is going to change the world. Its the collaborative efforts of everyone and all their ideas, and all their strength that will Insha'Allah change the policies and the situations around us. And even if it doesn't, why tell people to stop trying, why belittle the efforts of those trying to be sincere--because it doesn't help anything. Take Care, Wassalam, Nazia |
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| Anonymous |
| 04/28/02 at 05:04:50 |
| Salaam I think it's got nothing to do with your votes any of you people read 'The best democracy money can buy' for how Bush won the election by massive fraud? how long do you think Amrika has been a democracy? The Kennedy's won by electoral fraud the year Jefferson was elected 1/5 of Americans were slaves. It's all to do with economics, check out Gabriel Kolko's book for why america lost the vietnam war.. the american economy was wrecked! do you think the army withdrew because of a few demonstrations? You can go back further the british didn't leave Industan because of Ghandi! they left because large numbers of the Industani soldiers had deserted and fought on the Niponese side. The british realised their economy couldn't handle a popular war in Industan. Use your money and energy constructively by putting forward your own candidates at elections. Buy media time , send out brochures . Give dawah people! Dawah is one on one. CNN and most especially FOX have shown they loath us and will not do you any favours when your on tv demonstrating. Take control of your image on the box. Therefore use time wisely stand on street corners and hand out leaflets. If only 1 in 10 people read it thats good! |
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| Sis_Malak |
| 04/29/02 at 04:04:59 |
| [slm] I just want to add my thoughts to this topic. We had a big rally here in Sacramento this weekend. It was organized by myself and some other girls from the masjid. We also got the support of many organizations such as ADC, CAIR, Peace Action, Jewish Voices for Peace, and American Muslims for Global Peace and Justice. All throughout the march, we passed out fliers that gave the facts about the situation in Palestine, as well as pamphlets about Zionism. We had at least 1000 when we got there, and we left with none. So anyone who thinks that our rally accomplished nothing for Palestine, I think you are wrong. Sure, nothing is coming directly from the rally in terms of policy changes, but how CAN we achieve that? By rallying more and more people to our side. The society we live in is democratic, and if enough people are on this side, we can elect those people who agree with us. And our representatives know this. So as the rallys get bigger and more phone calls and letters get to the pres and our congressmen, they will have to change their stance if they want to keep their jobs. When we passed out all of those fliers, at least some of the people learned something, and will start to support our side. Right now, most people don't really know what's going on. But as a result of our rally, 1000+ people got informed. So did all the people who watch Channel 3 news, because they actually showed interviews with us, and we gave the facts in those interviews. So you see, we DID do something, even if it didn't directly help. Plus, our ummah was shattering before our eyes, and we all know that. Now, people are starting to come together....imagine-over a million people in Egypt and Morocco, hundreds of thousands in DC....the Muslims are becoming a united ummah again. Alhamdulillah. We have all these bilboards here in Sac since 9-11 that say "United We Stand". When I see them, I don' t think of the US, I think of the Ummah. Inshallah things will continue to improve this way, and all the Muslims and the Muslim countries will unite to help our brothers and sisters in Palestine. So please, don't go against our demos, because its one way we are trying to help, and getting the word out is, if nothing else, a good starting point. |
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| Barr |
| 04/30/02 at 08:24:08 |
| Assalamu'alaikum :-) Personally, I feel that whatever good work that is initiated and implemented by our brothers and sisters should not and never be discounted...whether it is demonstrations, one to one da'wah, lectures, halaqas etc, these are just platforms and ways to achieve a certain objective. What is imperative to me besides the activity itself, is the manner and basis that one comes to decide what activity to implement as their da'wah strategy. And since there is a difference between what strategies and principles are, then, let us not bark on strategies, which changes in accordance to time and place. Certainly, impact of demos with volumous attendance, the extent of media coverage and the general feel and behavior of those in DC and London far surpasses those in small towns and countries where demos are banned ( like good 'ol Singapore ::)). Hence, what is the priority of having such strategies, bearing in mind the climate of the place, the impact, human resources would come into play. Though I feel that demos is not the all and end all, it does have some impact on public opinion if it is organised well. For example, during the Anwar Ibrahim saga in Malaysia back in 1998-2000 demos raise more awareness of the unfair treatment and accusation of him. It affected the ruling parties in terms of number of votes in their general election etc albeit, incidences where the govt themselves played a hand at fouling the elections. But when such demos subsided, it effected the motivation of the nation. Though many factors are at play in this example, demos nevertheless has shown great impact on influencing public opinion. Certainly, in support with many things that has been said in other posts, demos don't change policies, and may have little immediate effect. And that's where other supporting strategies must be present. In many cases, pressuring the government via demos, may even backfire. At the end of the day, governments do have their egos as well. Relenting by a couple of people with slogans, would only show "meekness" of government to a certain extent. Hence, subtle "backstage" work may be more impactful, although it takes a longer time to achieve. And I think that is where most of our efforts showed also be. Allahua'lam.. but perhaps... debating on a non-issue such as demos... which is just a question of stratergy and not a matter of principle... may still not lead to anything conclusive and productive. Just my thoughts Wassalam :-) |
| 04/30/02 at 08:31:27 |
| Barr |
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