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Where's MUJY???

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Where's MUJY???
Caraj
04/18/02 at 22:56:34
I am in need of and hungry for a good debate.   :-/
So Lil' Bro Mujy    ;-)   where are you these days?
What ya busy voting on now a days   :P

It's been a very stressful and long 2 weeks and I have
much energy to dispurse on a good debate.

Anyone have any ideas on a good debating topic???

Ok pull up a chair and have a   [] and lets the games begin    ;D

Re: Where's MUJY???
Road2Jannah
04/19/02 at 09:37:21
heyy caraj, well ur looking for  a debate I got one for u, or maybe more of a research for u. I hope it wont be offensive :) 1st of all I am sooo happy that u r being open minded to read the Quran, and learn a lil about our religion, I hope u learn as much as u want, and find it all pleasing inshallah.

well let me start, i would like to start by asking u a Question using reference from the bible, and u will tell me who it is talking about. k here we go......


"And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which [men] deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, [I pray thee]: and he saith, I cannot; for it [is] sealed: And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, [I pray thee]: and he saith, I am not learned. Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near [me] with their mouth, and with their lips do honor me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men: Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvelous work among this people, [even] a marvelous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise [men] shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid. Woe unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the LORD, and their works are in the dark, and they say, Who seeth us? and who knoweth us? Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding? [Is] it not yet a very little while, and Lebanon shall be turned into a fruitful field, and the fruitful field shall be esteemed as a forest? And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness."

Isaiah 29:11-18

Now we will compare this with the Islamic teaching, as u know Muhammad pbuh was not literate. Here is a lil story of how it all started, so u can compare...

"One day suddenly the Truth descended upon him while he was in the cave of Hira. The angel came to him and asked him to read. The Prophet (pbuh) replied, "I do not know how to read." The Prophet (pbuh) added, "The angel caught me (forcefully) and pressed me so hard that I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read and I replied, "I do not know how to read." Thereupon he caught me again and pressed me a second time until I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read but again I replied, "I do not know how to read (or what shall I read)?" Thereupon he caught me for the third time and pressed me, and then released me and said, "Read in the name of your Lord, who has created (all that exists), created man from a clot. Read! And your Lord is the Most Generous.'"(96):1-3.

these r 2 verses from both the holy books. I would  like u  to tell me, who does the verse on Isaiah 29:11-18 talk about???


Also lol ( sorry im typing too much) well maybe for next time i will finish this is enough for today  :-*

I hope u can answer this Question for me, as u r learning about our religion, i am doing so as well with ur religion  ;)SO i got as much questions as u will have. If u have any Q's about the Quran ask away my friend. I would be more then happy to answer them if I can :-)

so take care, i would be waiting for ur reply . while im waiting i'll have a bebzi  []


k now take careeee, any1 can also get in this and give an answer [slm]
Re: Where's MUJY???
Caraj
04/19/02 at 18:08:36
I am no BiblicaL Scollar by any means but I printed this post out and will research it this week-end and reply Mon or Tues ok?

So far I see so many simularities in some beliefs between Christian and Muslim I am truly AMAZED.    :o

More later... here's one on me      []
Re: Where's MUJY???
Road2Jannah
04/19/02 at 23:52:04
hey, great to hear caraj. here is anothe Q i have in mind. This one is also a verse in the bible. here it is....

"And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou? And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ. And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No."
[

John 1:19-21
and then in another it says "And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be:

a) not that Christ,

b) nor Elias,

c) neither that prophet?"

John 1:25

now if the Christians believe that there was no prophet after Jesus, who were the Jews talking about? What other prophet? is there really a prophet after him?

plz do research this also. thank u
Re: Where's MUJY???
Dawn
04/20/02 at 05:44:03
Are these questions just for Cara, or can anyone else chime in?
Re: Where's MUJY???
Beth
04/20/02 at 07:26:47
>>>Where's Mujy?

He's sulking.   :'(  I rather think his absense is down to me.  But hey!  don't thank me,  its all part of the service.  (joke, Nazir!  JOKE!!!)
Re: Where's MUJY???
Road2Jannah
04/20/02 at 12:29:11
These Questions are for all to answer if they can, mainly non-muslims.
Re: Where's MUJY???
Dawn
04/20/02 at 16:06:16
[quote author=Road2Jannah link=board=bebzi;num=1019184995;start=0#3 date=04/19/02 at 23:52:04]"And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou? And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ. And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No." John 1:19-21

"And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not the Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet?"
John 1:25

now if the Christians believe that there was no prophet after Jesus, who were the Jews talking about? What other prophet? is there really a prophet after him?
[/quote]
Seeing as I am non-Muslim, non-Christian in the orthodox sense of the word, and somewhat versed in New Testament literature, I thought I would respond to this one.  Even though it is not explicitly stated, I am presuming that the Christian stance on these verses is being requested since Christian Scripture is being referred to, and so that is what I will attempt to give.

The question posed in the above verse was asked of John the Baptist.  According to the book of John, he denies being the messiah, Elias, or the prophet.  Who exactly is this prophet who was apparently being expected?  The general, almost unanimous consensus here, is that the prophet referred to here is the one described in Deuteronomy 18:15 "The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own brothers.  You must listen to him." and Deuteronomy 18:17-18 "The Lord said to me: "What they say is good.  I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him."  

Now, according to Christian apologetics, the prophet foretold here was Jesus himself.  Indeed, Jesus is referred to as a prophet in several places in the New Testament (Matthew 21:11 and 46, Mark 6:15, Luke 7:16, 13:33, 24:19, John 4:19, 6:14, 7:40, 9:17, Acts 3:22).  Some of these are general references, but a couple of the ones in John, and especially the one in Acts specifically refer to Jesus as this Prophet.  The book of Acts even quotes Deuteronomy in its reference and attribution.  Hence, Christianity holds that Jesus was both the messiah and the prophet foretold in Deuteronomy.  

In summary, according to Christians, the prophet that the Jewish religious authorities were talking about was Jesus himself and thus these verses say nothing at all about the existence of a prophet after Christ.  The existence of such a prophet or prophets is a legitimate issue/question, but, according to Christians, it is not addressed in these particular verses.

Peace,
Dawn
Re: Where's MUJY???
Abu_Hamza
04/20/02 at 16:23:44
Dawn, so basically the Jewish authorities asked John whether or not he was Christ *twice*?  Once specifically by using the word "Christ" and then once again by using the words "that prophet"?  

Because their series of questions indicate that they had already asked him specifically whether or not he was Christ as their first question.  And he had already answered them by saying he was not.
Re: Where's MUJY???
Dawn
04/20/02 at 16:34:40
[quote author=Abu_Hamza link=board=bebzi;num=1019184995;start=0#8 date=04/20/02 at 16:23:44]Dawn, so basically the Jewish authorities asked John whether or not he was Christ *twice*?  Once specifically by using the word "Christ" and then once again by using the words "that prophet"?  

Because their series of questions indicate that they had already asked him specifically whether or not he was Christ as their first question.  And he had already answered them by saying he was not.[/quote]

For the Jewish authorities, these were almost assuredly two different expected figures (and for all I know still are).  It was the Christians that rolled them into one, after the fact,  in their interpretation of the person of Jesus.  
04/20/02 at 16:46:01
Dawn
Re: Where's MUJY???
Road2Jannah
04/20/02 at 22:20:24
[slm]
dawn u wrote..
"The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own brothers.  You must listen to him." and Deuteronomy 18:17-18 "The Lord said to me: "What they say is good.  I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him."  

if i don't recall this was to Moses, and God tells him i will raise them up a prophet LIKE you, I will put MY WORDs in his mouth.
now if we analyze this, we know that Moses and Jesus have very small similarities, and more differences .if we would try to fit this verse with Muhammad(pbuh), we would see that Moses is indeed more alike to Moses (I could give u the similarities, but not now) , for Also God did put words in Muhammad's mouth since he did not know how to read or write, and he gave Muhammad a sealed book which no one understood.  

The Jews wouldn't have asked twice about the same person, if both names r indicated to the same person?
Re: Where's MUJY???
Dawn
04/21/02 at 10:31:34
[quote author=Abu_Hamza link=board=bebzi;num=1019184995;start=0#8 date=04/20/02 at 16:23:44]Dawn, so basically the Jewish authorities asked John whether or not he was Christ *twice*?  Once specifically by using the word "Christ" and then once again by using the words "that prophet"?  

Because their series of questions indicate that they had already asked him specifically whether or not he was Christ as their first question.  And he had already answered them by saying he was not.[/quote]

You know, I responded to this one late last night, and as I was falling asleep, realized that I probably hadn't addressed the real issue.  The real issue you raise here, as I now read it, is why would the author (who is presumably Christian) of the book of John have the authorities ask John the Baptist if he is both the Christ and that prophet, if the author thought Jesus was both of those?  My answer to this will go against the grain of most conservative Christian thought, but it is the only answer that seems reasonable to me.  To appropriately answer it, we need to consider where else in John "that Prophet" is referenced.  These would be John 6:14 and 7:40.  In both these verses, the author has "the people" or "some people" saying "surely this is the Prophet".  Conservatives claim that since the author does not have Jesus say otherwise, it means that the author thought that the people were claiming correctly.  However, I have problems with this for a couple of reasons.  First, throughout most of the rest of the book, the author does not have such a good opinion of "the people".  They are fickle, worldly, contentious, and sometimes demanding.   Second, taking the book as a whole, one can see quite quickly that the author thinks that Jesus is something much greater than simply "the Prophet".  In fact, if we had just the book of John for a gospel, we might be inclined to believe that Jesus wasn't really even all that human.  (The book was actually considered heretical by some early Christian communities.)  Hence, I don't think that the author considered Jesus to be "that Prophet" referred to in Deuteronomy.  I think the author would have considered that to be far below the station of his Jesus.

Nonetheless, there are still the verses in the book of Acts which explicitly equate Jesus with that Prophet.  And it is these verses which are the strongest support Christians have in linking Jesus up with "that Prophet".

I hope this better addresses your comment.

Peace,
Dawn
Re: Where's MUJY???
Dawn
04/21/02 at 11:35:47
[quote author=Road2Jannah link=board=bebzi;num=1019184995;start=0#10 date=04/20/02 at 22:20:24] [slm]
dawn u wrote..
"The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own brothers.  You must listen to him." and Deuteronomy 18:17-18 "The Lord said to me: "What they say is good.  I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him."  

if i don't recall this was to Moses, and God tells him i will raise them up a prophet LIKE you, I will put MY WORDs in his mouth.[/quote]
This indeed was reportedly written by Moses, but most modern scholarship has the book of Deuteronomy written much later, by an anonymous author.  Nonetheless, it seems likely that the author wanted the readers to equate Moses with the "me".  Indeed the first verse of the book starts with "These are the words Moses spoke to all Israel ...", and most scholarship holds that the majority of Deuteronomy was written by a single author and merely redacted later on.

[quote] now if we analyze this, we know that Moses and Jesus have very small similarities, and more differences .if we would try to fit this verse with Muhammad(pbuh), we would see that Moses is indeed more alike to Moses (I could give u the similarities, but not now) , for Also God did put words in Muhammad's mouth since he did not know how to read or write, and he gave Muhammad a sealed book which no one understood.  [/quote]
I thought in reading the original question, you wished to know how Christians viewed the verses, whether John or Deuteronomy.  That was what I was attempting to relate.  However, if one does indeed want to use these verses as prophetic material, then one is free to try to find the best fit. Certainly Muhammed was more like the biblical Moses in this physical life.  Jesus, on the other hand, seems to fit better for the portion which says "from among your own brothers".  The translation I gave above comes from the NIV version of the Bible (a version which has some questionable translations at times, but it was all I could find last night).  I have searched a number of other versions and have seen "from among your own brothers" also rendered "from your midst, from among your brethren", "from your midst, from among your brothers", "from among Israel, from among your brothers", and "from among your community".  Unfortunately, I don't read Hebrew to read the original for myself.  But in any case, Jesus seems the better fit here.  Muhammad could qualify as a "son of Ishmael", but that stretches the definition of "midst" or "community" a bit.  So both have their pros and cons.  Personally, I place little value on either the prophetic nature or the literalness of the Bible, so for me, it is a bit of a non-issue.

[quote]The Jews wouldn't have asked twice about the same person, if both names r indicated to the same person?[/quote] I have tried to address this in previous posts.

Hope this helps clear things up!  Please ask if it still sounds confusing!

Peace,
Dawn


Re: Where's MUJY???
Road2Jannah
04/23/02 at 10:47:12
[slm] well dawn thanx for ur research and info. But to me with those 2 verses from the bible, it makes u wonder if there is another prophet after jesus.( even though i already think so and know so.) But this shows that if the verses r not true, then its contradicitng to the  bible.

here is my point of view..
in Isaiah 29:11-18 (And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which [men] deliver to one that is learned) this means that this person is the only one who understood this book, how is it sealed maybe its another languauge??

where as in another verse it says...

Read this, [I pray thee]: and he saith, I cannot; for it [is] sealed: And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, [I pray thee]: and he saith, I am not learned. What does it mean that he is not learned? does it mean he can not read or is he illiterate???
ill post more inshallah. i gtg now take care.
Re: Where's MUJY???
muqaddar
04/23/02 at 13:28:56
[slm]

I think the Dead Sea Scrolls have made it fairly clear that the Yahoodi's were expecting 2 people one the messiah and one a prophet

and this is born out by what people were saying at the time of the prophet
the yahoodi hoped that the prophet would lead them to being the rulers over all the nations of the earth.

When he declined to call them the 'chosen people' they turned to Hadrat Umar (ra)

 
Re: Where's MUJY???
Kashif
04/23/02 at 15:21:54
[quote author=muqaddar link=board=bebzi;num=1019184995;start=0#14 date=04/23/02 at 13:28:56]
When he declined to call them the 'chosen people' they turned to Hadrat Umar (ra)
[/quote]

assalaamu alaikum

eh???
NS


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