A R C H I V E S
Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| If U were Palestinian Leader, what would you do? |
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| mujaahid |
| 04/19/02 at 13:25:40 |
| [slm] I had a thought last night, and went to sleep thinking about it. If i was the Palestinian leader, what would i do to change the current situation? The first thing would be that we must accept we would have to make big short term sacrifices. What i would do is call on all the group, Hama, Fatah, Islaamic Jihad, Al-Aqsa Brigade etc to call an immediate ceasefire to any kind of attacks on the Israeli's. As hard as that may be under the currect situations, its somethign that i feel has to be done. Once we have a ceasefire, we go back to the negotiating table, and try and accept the best deal we can get, even if its a painful and heartbreaking acceptance, we should take it. Once that happens, the Palestinians can form their own state. Once they have control of thier own borders, they can start building their infrastructor, a police force, a proper military, an airforce, they can get in massive amounts of arms and weapons. and form a proper large army, where EVERY man and woman would have to join the army for 4 or 5 years. Slowly the palestinians will develop a powerful military, and powerful alliances with the arab states, and other muslim states. And when the time is right, they will be in a position to launch a Jihad against the Israeli's, a proper jihad, where they will have a strong airforce, a well equipd military, and heavy backing from other arab states. Patience, and sensible thinking and planning is the only way the palestinians will get justice. They have suffered for almost 60 years, they now need to make sacrifices, BIG sacrefices for the next few years and then inshalalah they will reap the rewards for thier efforts. Its the only way forward. The other option is for the violance to continue, and for the palestinians to suffer yet more massacres, and more deaths, and continue to live in dire conditions, under occupation. For the long term benefits, the palestinians need to have short term peace. They are not making any progress with this current bloodshed, they are outgunned, and are defenceless against the israeli's. This will only change through careful planning, not through emotional responses. If you guys were the leader of the Palestinians, how would you handle this? |
| 04/19/02 at 13:26:59 |
| mujaahid |
| Re: If U were Palestinian Leader, what would you d |
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| ltcorpest2 |
| 04/19/02 at 15:30:48 |
| wtg muj, and you know what? the us has already promies to help rebuild their infrastructure |
| Re: If U were Palestinian Leader, what would you d |
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| mujaahid |
| 04/19/02 at 15:36:42 |
| "wtg muj, and you know what? the us has already promies to help rebuild their infrastructure" Mike the US supplied the weapons to destroy the infrastructure!! The US gave the weapons to kill and murder hundreds of palestinians. The US leader, called the man responsible for this destruction, a Man Of Peace :o The US and bush in particular are making themselves look more and more foolish by the day, and are loosing sympathisers and friends fast! |
| Re: If U were Palestinian Leader, what would you d |
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| pathan |
| 04/19/02 at 21:54:32 |
| Br. Mujahid... the best thing that anyone can do....even the leader of palestine, is to make dua...shed tears to Allah Subhanahu wa ta'ala, and ask for His help rather than spreading hands for US's help, because He(Allah Subhanahu wa ta'ala) is the ultimate force and He is the ultimate help. and even if one of us were in Arafat's position?...do u think he can do much? do u think all the mujahid organizations like Hamas, etc etc. would listen to him?....i dont know brother but i dont think so. May Allah help all our brothers and sister around the globe. and May he give us the taufeeq to be used in His way. i urge everyone to make dua for our brothers and sisters around the globe who are going through very touch times, they are being killed for the sole reason that they are like me and you..Muslims. because they say La ilaha Illallahu Muhammadur rasolullah. Ma salam |
| Re: If U were Palestinian Leader, what would you d |
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| Abu_Hamza |
| 04/20/02 at 01:25:18 |
| [quote author=mujaahid link=board=ummah;num=1019237140;start=0#0 date=04/19/02 at 13:25:40] Once we have a ceasefire, we go back to the negotiating table, and try and accept the best deal we can get, even if its a painful and heartbreaking acceptance, we should take it. Once that happens, the Palestinians can form their own state. Once they have control of thier own borders, they can start building their infrastructor, a police force, a proper military, an airforce, they can get in massive amounts of arms and weapons. and form a proper large army, where EVERY man and woman would have to join the army for 4 or 5 years. Slowly the palestinians will develop a powerful military, and powerful alliances with the arab states, and other muslim states. And when the time is right, they will be in a position to launch a Jihad against the Israeli's, a proper jihad, where they will have a strong airforce, a well equipd military, and heavy backing from other arab states. [/quote] Uhh, what makes you think the enemies of Islam are just going to sit there like dummies throughout this process and watch Muslims regain power? The ceasefire and negotiations that you talk about, pray tell me, has the state of Israel kept true to any resolutions or treaties before? What makes you think they would stick to whatever agreement that may be made under the circumstances that you are proposing? If you are too naive to understand it by yourself, let me put it plainly to you. The Zionists want one, and only one thing! TOTAL control over Bilaad ash-Shaam. That is their ultimate goal. And they will continue to persecute the Palestinians until they get that entire land. Now don't tell me you would agree to give them the entire Bilaad ash-Shaam because "we're losing too many people fighting!" |
| Re: If U were Palestinian Leader, what would you d |
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| Kashif |
| 04/20/02 at 04:11:46 |
| assalaamu alaikum I'm with Abu_Hamza here. Mujaahid, i'm afraid your plan is the most idealistic plan i've heard ever about Palestine, nd shows a complete lack of knowledge of the pre-eminence of America, and the politics of the world in general and that region in specific. I doubt its the Palestinians who will alone throw off the yoke of oppression, that is, the Israelis, by themselves. I think it'll be a combined army with people from all parts of the region/world. Or even perhaps, if we are in the Last Days of history now. The situation may escalate to that which the Prophet sallallahu alaihi wa sallam described when the ummah will make a peace treaty with the Christians and combined will fight against the oppression of the Jews. And Allah knows best. Kashif Wa Salaam |
| NS |
| Re: If U were Palestinian Leader, what would you d |
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| Hamas_The_Victor |
| 04/20/02 at 06:16:32 |
| Peace be on those who follow the GUIDANCE If I were the Paletinian Leader, I would: Submit to Islam completely Fear Allah alone as He should be feared Set an example to those under my charge NOT engage in one-sided negotiations NOT enter into peace agreements which will NEVER be reciprocated Transform myself into a Salahuddin Ayyubi and Launch a full-scale Jihaad against the usurpers |
| Re: If U were Palestinian Leader, what would you d |
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| BroHanif |
| 04/21/02 at 06:34:09 |
| [slm], I don't want to be the leader of Palestine because I feel that its not a task up to me. However, I would lend my assitance by advising him the following: Implement the Quran and Sunnah and try to follow it as much as possible Declare the land of Quds open for everyone...thats right anyone who wants to come and stay is welcome, provided they do not oppress and live peacefully. Ask for assistance from not just those in Palestine but worldwide, be it in the form of physical, spiritual or monetary. Never and never engage in any talks with the oppressors, how can peace talks take place when they the Zionists declare and act in such brutal ways. Invite the mujahideen from all over the world, Khattab in Cheychan can be the Army commander in chief. Open training camps for the people so when they throw rocks and stones at the tanks they throw em with accuracy, other training tactics to defend themselves can be studied as well. Tell the puppet leaders of the surrounding Mid East countrys to open the borders so aid can get through, whatever aid it may be from bread to bullets. Also tell the puppet leaders of the surrounding coutrys not to rely on the idols in Washington but to rely on Allah as with Allah is the solution. And ask em to stop the oil being sent to Israel. Set up 24 hour media channels in every country, to educate the people of the oppression and history of the zionists. So people understand what the fight is about. Unite for once. And have hope and sabr in Allah. Salaams Hanif |
| Re: If U were Palestinian Leader, what would you d |
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| Hussain |
| 04/21/02 at 15:29:07 |
| As salamu alaykum One thing is for sure,the way the Plastine leadership is now handling the situation isnt the right way.We are not supposed to take kuffar as our friend or ally,and this ppl are taking them as not only their friends but as a gurdian to them and wanting them to help them.We know that the kuffar are never going to help us,they just want to destroy us and wipe islam from the face of the earth.They try to preach something called moderate islam,or in other words where ppl are only muslims by name and work. May Allah help the ppl of palestine and save them from their evil leaders who take US and western kuffars as their friends and allies although the kuffar is trying to destroy them.Ameen |
| Re: If U were Palestinian Leader, what would you d |
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| mujaahid |
| 04/22/02 at 06:14:50 |
| Abu_Hamza "Now don't tell me you would agree to give them the entire Bilaad ash-Shaam because "we're losing too many people fighting" Who said give anything to the Israeli's? In the short term what CAN the palestinians do? Nothing? All they can do is blow up restuarants and cafe's, while the Israeli military have a free will to do as they please and the Palestinians are helpless to stop them, because they dont have an army. Why dont you guys undertsand that minor detail? The Palestinians are DEFENCELESS against the Israeli's. Tha coward arab states aint gone help, apart from a bit of morale support, they dont have the bottle, or will to offer real help!! So what do you Suggest? The palestinians continue to suffer like this? Get their homes blown up, hundreds getting killed, the Israeli's entering palestinian towns at will? The Mujaahideen groups like hama's etc HAVE been able to get thier hands of a few weapons, and that is all down to that laughable Oslo accords, and even though that was a joke, that minor agreement allowed the palestinhians to get in a few weapons. What if they get thier own state? They will have a lot more control in terms of bringing is heavy weapns. I dont see any other suggestions being put forward. I assume you support a Jihad using little kids with slingshots, and girls as suicide bo,bers? If you think thats gona defeat the israeli's, than wake up guys. |
| Re: If U were Palestinian Leader, what would you d |
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| Shahida |
| 04/22/02 at 07:25:43 |
| [slm] Just wanna add one little fact to this whole thing... The so-called state, that the Palestinians will end up with if they return to the "negotiating" table is this: a set of isolated, disjointed, Bantustans spread over the West Bank and Gaza...with NO possibility of having their own army, navy, air force etc...this is what the Zionists will give, if anything. Please bare in mind, that time is not a factor here, this can go on for many many years! And we should not wanna prescribe to the Palestinians what to do, they are suffering, but they would rather offer thier lives for the sake of Islam, than capitulate to our biggest enemies. Is that the kind of "state" you want Mujahid? We will achieve nothing by negotiating with people who broke even their promises and covenants with Allah. Excellent posts by the other brothers... wasalam |
| Re: If U were Palestinian Leader, what would you d |
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| Shahida |
| 04/22/02 at 07:37:44 |
| Sorry, don't mean to be mean or rude, but Mujahid, are you serious??? Some of this made me laugh, its so out-of-touch with reality... Read about the other accords that Arafat signed with the Israelis...and see what they are prepared to oh-so-generously (kiss their feet) offer us... >> Once we have a ceasefire, we go back to the negotiating table, and try and accept the best deal we can get, even if its a painful and heartbreaking acceptance, we should take it. >>I do not think so. Did the early Muslims ever offer to surrender and accept defeat, cuz they were *afraid* of losing more people?? Martyrdom is the ultimate death... >> Once that happens, the Palestinians can form their own state. Once they have control of thier own borders, they can start building their infrastructor, a police force, a proper military, an airforce, they can get in massive amounts of arms and weapons. and form a proper large army, where EVERY man and woman would have to join the army for 4 or 5 years. Slowly the palestinians will develop a powerful military, and powerful alliances with the arab states, and other muslim states. >>NOT! secure borders??! military?? airforce?? hehe, are you serious? The zionists will NEVER allow this... |
| Re: If U were Palestinian Leader, what would you d |
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| M.F. |
| 04/22/02 at 10:07:32 |
| "Once they have control of thier own borders, they can start building their infrastructor, a police force, a proper military, an airforce, they can get in massive amounts of arms and weapons" This will NEVER happen. It's as simple as that. It'll never happen. As for a ceasefire, the Qur'an says it clear and simple: Every time they make a promise, a group of them breaks it. What the Palestinian leader should do right now is graciously bow out and let someone else take his place, someone who won't nod his head and say yessir every time a palestinian's right is taken away. Someone who will make this cause a MUSLIM cause, and not an ARAB cause. Since when has Allah ever given victory to a people because they were a certain NATIONALITY regardless of religion??? Never. This has never happened. Therefore turning the issue of Quds into one of Arab territorialism is never going to help get it back. Once people get it into their heads that it's Muslims vs. Kuffar, and that "ba'duhum awliya-u ba'd" as the Qur'an says when it comes to Jews and Christians, [(that they'll always be each other's friend)... does Judeo-Christian tradition, thinking, background etc sound familiar? It's all the same thing. ] then... when we get back to what it means to be Muslims, then we'll have the strength to get back what is ours insha Allah. |
| Re: If U were Palestinian Leader, what would you d |
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| Abu_Hamza |
| 04/22/02 at 11:09:36 |
| [slm] [quote]Who said give anything to the Israeli's? [/quote] You did! This is what you said in your first post: "The first thing would be that we must accept we would have to make big short term sacrifices." "try and accept the best deal we can get, even if its a painful and heartbreaking acceptance, we should take it." What does "sacrifice" and "heartbreaking acceptance" refer to if not giving away parts (or whole) of Bilaad ash-Shaam? As for the rest of your post, I just want to say one thing. The Palestinians have put up the most amazing resistance against the Israelis since the day they arrived there. They are fighting with very little, against an army carrying the best weapons that this world can offer. And yet, the frustration of the Zionist regime over their constant struggle is more than obvious. Subhan Allah! Just pray to Allah (swt) to help our brothers and sisters in Palestine. Pray bro. And do whatever you can do to help them. As far as what I offer as *the solution* ... that's something I can't discuss publicly. Wassalamu alaikum wa rahmatullah. |
| Re: If U were Palestinian Leader, what would you d |
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| mujaahid |
| 04/22/02 at 11:26:33 |
| [slm] OK, first of all, Shahida, i'm placing cyber sanctions on you, i find you rather rude. MF you idea for Arafat to step aside and let someone else take over is good, apart from one minor detail. NO arab state is prepared to give military support to the Palestinians, and without that, nothing is gona work. You need an army. Simple. Without that, forget everything else, because it aint gona work!! Of course in the ideal situation, the arab states would open thier borders and support and fund the mujaahideen and let them through to israel, allow the fighters to liberate palestinine. But the simple fact is the majority of muslims are not on the deen, hence we have leaders who are not on the deen, so that plan is...whooosh!!! Out the window! Ooo was that a pig i just saw fly by? No, it was Ariel Sharon! Now its all well and goo we sitting here in the safety of the west saying "go on pals, dont give up anything, never make peace with them" blah blah, but we aint the ones being obliterated by a superpower. I assume that if the tables were turned and you people were thier, you would not wanna be at war with such a ruthless military superpower, especially when you have no weapons or defence against these beasts, and when you have no support from your arab neighbours, apart from a few anti-israeli chants. |
| Re: If U were Palestinian Leader, what would you d |
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| BrKhalid |
| 04/22/02 at 11:47:55 |
| Asalaamu Alaikum [quote]The so-called state, that the Palestinians will end up with if they return to the "negotiating" table is this: a set of isolated, disjointed, Bantustans spread over the West Bank and Gaza...with NO possibility of having their own army, navy, air force etc...this is what the Zionists will give, if anything[/quote] Br Mujaahid I'd be interested in how you would respond to this point from Sr Shahida |
| Re: If U were Palestinian Leader, what would you d |
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| Abu_Hamza |
| 04/22/02 at 11:51:02 |
| [slm] [quote]I assume that if the tables were turned and you people were thier, you would not wanna be at war with such a ruthless military superpower, especially when you have no weapons or defence against these beasts, and when you have no support from your arab neighbours, apart from a few anti-israeli chants. [/quote] Maybe that's why we're not there! And they are. |
| Re: If U were Palestinian Leader, what would you d |
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| mujaahid |
| 04/22/02 at 12:00:00 |
| [slm] Bro Khalid, i will respond to those points once i find out what was being offered. If Shahida could kindly post a few links up of where she got that info, i may be able to check its validity out, and i'm prepared to break my own sanctions here!! Abu Hamza My point is that because we are not living under that brutuality, its easy for us to say "dont except this, or that". But when your living under that, i assume you wouldnt be saying the same thing. |
| Re: If U were Palestinian Leader, what would you d |
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| BroHanif |
| 04/22/02 at 13:08:42 |
| [slm], Brother mujahid as your name says mujahid what are you afraid of ??? Don't worry if the palestininans fall then we shall take the banner and defend our homeland. 8br>Today it is them, tomorrow it will be us. Look forward to the day when we lift Allahs word, look forward to the day when we defend the rights of everyone through Islam. Look forward to the day when we are questioned in the hearafter and say with happiness that Allah I got killed for you, to raise Islaam and to defend its honour. Truly the hearafter is the better Abode. We should not even give them one millimeter of land, infact we should fight them till they give all of our land back. And then they can live with us in peace, thats if they want to. Forget our puppet leaders, they can do nothing to us, at the most they can kill us and then ? Subhanallah we died again defending Islaam. The reason why some of the leaders are in there because they themselves have been handpicked. Thats why its all down to nationalism, when the Gulf War started instead of having faith and sabar in Allah, they called the idol, not Laaat or Uzza but Bush as the protector. Yet the time is soon coming for the greatest fitnah to arrive. May Allah save us all, ameen. Salaams Hanif |
| Re: If U were Palestinian Leader, what would you d |
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| mujaahid |
| 04/22/02 at 13:45:44 |
| [slm] Bro Hanif i liked your post !! I just wish the others would have the same approach. Sadly too many of us dont know which route to take. I agree, that we should, and must fight to liberate palestine. But thier is one issue we cannot get past. Fight with what? The palestinians dont have an army, they have no weapons, they are not trained in proper combat. One solution given was the other arab nations should liberate palestine. But thier is one flaw thier. IF the palestinians are not trained, dont have any weapons, not military, what will happen. The arab nations will attack israel, the palestinians will be caught in the middle, defenceless, and unarmed, and if the israeli's are facing defeat, they will simply massacre the palestinians. That is the reality of what will happen UNLESS the palestinians form some kind of strong military. We've seen it in kosovo, bosnia, Iraq, Afghanistan that the Kaafirs will simply massacre the innocent muslims on a massive scale if they suffer heavy military setbacks. So what do we do? Half heatedly attack israeli, while the palestinians are in a vulnerable position? Who are we doing this? For ourselves to make us feel good, or to liberate the land of palestine for our brothers? If its to liberate palestine, then the survival of the palestinian people's survival should be our main concern. Right now they are in a vulnerable position, and they WILL be slaughtered if the rest of the muslims react and act through emotion. Emotion is good on the battle field, but its useless while your planning. Muslims have relied on emotions for many years to vent their angre, but where has it got us? Everyone else developed thier military and are self reliant. What do we muslims have? We rely on weapons from our enemies like the US, UK and russia. Why dont we now for once learn from our mistakes, and start developing our own self reliant military, so that we can really defend our people? For that to happen, people need to stop being emotional and start being rational. Start planning, and developing, stop screaming and shouting. The solution is simple, i've said it all along, its Jihad. So why not start planning towards it. Even if its to trian yourself, why not do it? |
| Re: If U were Palestinian Leader, what would you d |
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| BroHanif |
| 04/22/02 at 14:23:04 |
| [slm] [quote]if its to trian yourself, why not do it? [/quote] So in other words what you are really saying is this: Can one fight alone if others stay back.... Yes he fights alone bcause Allah the Almighty has revealed to prophet [saw] "Then fight (o Mohammed [saw]) in the cause of Allah, you are not tasked (held responsible) except for yourself, and incite the believers ( to fight along with you) it may be that Allah restrain the evil might of the disbelievers. And Allah is stronger in might and stronger in punishing" Sura an Nisa:Verse 84 We should do whatever we can through our own resources to bring about much needed Islamic peace. As somebody once said if they are with peace with us then we are at peace with them. However, if they are not at peace with us then how can we be at peace with them. Salaams Hanif |
| Re: If U were Palestinian Leader, what would you d |
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| mujaahid |
| 04/22/02 at 15:26:27 |
| [slm] "So in other words what you are really saying is this: Can one fight alone if others stay back...." No, that isnt exactly what i'm saying. What i am saying is how much can one person do? Wouldnt it be better if we put together some kind of plan and worked towards carrying it out? Right now we get one brother here, one brother thier going for jihad, which is good, this should not stop, but we also need more support, we need entire states doing this. A few brothers from different parts of the world will not liberate Palestine. We're gona need a big military, a big army, well trianed and well equipped, well funded and supported to carry out the liberation of the Palestine. It cannot be a half hearted effort. The Israeli's, as much as we hate them, are no pushover. They have a powerful military, which is well organised, and the only way to defeat them is through careful planning. We can be as emotional as we like once we face them on the battlefields, but before than, we keep emotions out of it, we must keep emotions out of it, because if we dont, its gona get us knowhere. Also we need to unite on the deen. Push our differences to one side and unite on Islaam, nothing else, no nationalism, or racism, or tribalism. Islaam. Full stop. All this "oh look how he prays", "oh look at them, they have gone astray, they say ameen loudly", or "Ya Allah, he raises his hands before he goes into Ruk'hu" is whats dividing the Ummah, and its allowed the Kafirs to come between us. Deen, training, planning, and then Jihad will liberate palestine. Screaming, wailing, jumping up and down, backbiting is not gona solve anything. Sudan have opened up Jihad training camps in preparation, inshllah, for a war to liberate Palestine. Why can't the muslims across the world, who dont have access to these camps, trian themselves individually? Nothing is stopping us. "As somebody once said if they are with peace with us then we are at peace with them. However, if they are not at peace with us then how can we be at peace with them." Not Peace Brother, but a ceasefire. Knowone is calling for peace in the currect circumstances, but a ceasefire. The simple truth is the Palestinians are not in a position at the moment, neither are the arab states, in a position to liberate Palestine. |
| Re: If U were Palestinian Leader, what would you d |
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| explorer |
| 04/22/02 at 18:30:09 |
| [quote author=M.F. link=board=ummah;num=1019237140;start=0#12 date=04/22/02 at 10:07:32]Someone who will make this cause a MUSLIM cause, and not an ARAB cause. Since when has Allah ever given victory to a people because they were a certain NATIONALITY regardless of religion??? Never. This has never happened. Therefore turning the issue of Quds into one of Arab territorialism is never going to help get it back. Once people get it into their heads that it's Muslims vs. Kuffar, and that "ba'duhum awliya-u ba'd" as the Qur'an says when it comes to Jews and Christians, [(that they'll always be each other's friend)... does Judeo-Christian tradition, thinking, background etc sound familiar?[/quote] Interesting point. 180,000 or so Palestinians are Christians (inc. those holed up in the Church of Nativity) and are fighting and have died alongside palestinian muslims in what some call the 'Palestinian Intifada', not muslim. I've come across arguments that this war is more for national pride than to establish Allah's law. Most times Palestinians are waving palestine's national flag, though I believe that is more about their determination. |
| 04/22/02 at 18:31:50 |
| explorer |
| Re: If U were Palestinian Leader, what would you d |
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| Kashif |
| 04/22/02 at 18:36:40 |
| assalaamu alaikum I think sr. Shahidah's posts were the best in this thread too. The points she raised remain unanswered though. Kashif Wa Salaam |
| NS |
| Re: If U were Palestinian Leader, what would you d |
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| mujaahid |
| 04/23/02 at 06:13:07 |
| [slm] Kashief i'm still waiting for her to provide me with the links which show the plan being offered. However, i want the actual facts, not what some imams personal opinions, especially if its an imam who thinks blowoing up babies is a legitimate jihad. Just another point, all those on here who are saying that the palestinians should not accept this latest "pece" deal, must remeber that you are saying this from the security of living in a country which is not ruthlessly oppressing you. Your living in peace, tranquility, and harmouny. A nice existance. Dont you want the same for your Palestinian brothers? Or is your ego to big to accept any kind of ceasefire because some brothers giving thier emotional and hype building talks in mosques are telling you never to make any deals with the Israeli's. They will go home to nice homes, drive through large open, clean, peaceful streets, have everything around them. What a beautiful life they have. What about the: Want for your brother what you want for yourself? All those imams and speakers who spew out all that "no deal, NEVER peace with Israel, no ceasefire blah blah", they should be airlifted into the warzone and dropped right into the middle of an Israeli incursion, and let them see for themselves what its like for the palestinians. If they come out alive, i doubt they will be so gun-ho after it. A ceasefire can last a long time, and it will work in the best interests of the palestinians. The way things are going, kids with slingshots, girls as suicide bombers, is not getting the palestinians anywhere. Want for your brother what you want for yourself. Never forget that. To get to that stage, thier gona have to make sacrifices, and the rest of us, living in our cosy homes, are gona have to swallow our ego and accept some painful concessions in the short run. Think people, THINK about whats really going on, and how its gona be sorted out. The simple fact is the ummah is pathetically weak, we are a joke!! And we know it. We get our butts kicked left right and centre by these homo's and adulterers. And whats worse is we never learn, do we, oh no, never, we just keep doing the same things as always, like someone who keeps walking into a lampost, walks back, and walks stright back into it, gets angry and walks straight back into it, starts shouting and screaming, walks back, and walks straight back into it, and gets more and more emotional and keeps walking into it. Step back, look up, think about what your doing, then walk around it. Dont get emotional. Its simple. Too many groups and speakers at the moment are playing with peoples emotions, and your all getting hyped up. Just step back for a second, and ask yourself, where is all this angre and hype getting us? Dont fall for the hype. Dont get led around so easily. Dont let people play with your emotions. Sure it feels good to be angry and hyped up, but does it solve the issues? |
| 04/23/02 at 06:38:00 |
| mujaahid |
| Re: If U were Palestinian Leader, what would you d |
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| Shahida |
| 04/23/02 at 07:10:00 |
| [slm] Mujahid, YOU are the one who started this thread. YOU are the one who dreamed up the idea of capitulation to the zionists, YOU are the one who proposed accepting a deal from the zionists... sooo, you needing "proof" of my "allegations" about what the jews were prepared to offer us, just shows me how much of a *dream* this really was for you. You suggest us accepting a deal, yet you have no knowledge about what was offered in the past! How does that work? All the brothers and MF have said similar things as I have. The proof you need is right in front of you. We all seem to know it...YOU are the one who should find the peace deals, read them, educate yourself, then try and prove us wrong. As for wanting for your brother what you want for yourself, why not start that yourself? great idea! I would just caution you, that the Palestinians desire martyrdom for themselves and others...are you up for that? I am afraid this whole wanting for your brother, may not be what the brother himself wants. They are not attached to this world as everyone else seems to think. This world will not last forever, and I ask forgiveness from Allah on all our behalves, for placing our "luxury", "security" and material life above what is really important, i.e the life in the Hereafter. Cyber sanctions are a wondeful idea, I would have imposed them on you a long time ago. I may be rude bro, but Allahu akbar, sometimes you just take all our breaths away with your posts. oh and btw, it does nobody any good to insult the sheikhs and mullahs: they are learned men, and just like all of us, are entitled to their justified opinions. wasalam |
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| Shahida |
| 04/23/02 at 07:13:22 |
| [slm] last point for today: how about reading your Qur'aan Mujahid?? Forget about Camp David, forget about Oslo, forget about Sharm el Sheikh and all the others!!! read what Allah says about the jews in the Qur'aan, and their reliability and their moral conscience...even without the other "proof" this should be enough... :o |
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| mujaahid |
| 04/23/02 at 09:14:14 |
| Martyrdom shahida? YOU sister claimed you know what is being offered, so show me it, you cannot even seem to be able to provide a link, so how do you know whats being offered? Where you getting your facts from? Go on, a challenge from me to YOU, lets ALL see where your getting your facts from. EDITED BY ADMIN |
| 04/23/02 at 09:40:20 |
| bhaloo |
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| bhaloo |
| 04/23/02 at 09:45:47 |
| [slm] I don't understand why there is even any talk of negotiating with the Israelis. There is nothing to negotiate at all. NOTHING. They stole Muslim land in 1949 and thats all there is to it. They need to return it, ALL of it. |
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| ltcorpest2 |
| 04/23/02 at 11:10:20 |
| the problem with that bhaloo is that if the israelis think otherwise, then you could have a big war. can i ask a dumb question: how long was the country of palestine around before 1949? and werent there jews and christians living there also, so why do you claim it was muslim land? it might be the people land who previously lived there, but they were not all muslims. |
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| mujaahid |
| 04/23/02 at 11:13:38 |
| [slm] "They stole Muslim land in 1949 and thats all there is to it. They need to return it, ALL of it. " Bhaloo we all agree on that. But we also knwo the Israeli's are not gona return it, ever. We are gona have to fight to get it back. So whats the best way to go about it? This has been my point all along, how do we get back palestine. Sadly knowone has made any suggestions. All i've heard is what we cannot do, we cannot do this, we cannot do that. Well what about htings we CAN do? Lets hear some suggestions this time shall we? |
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| BrKhalid |
| 04/23/02 at 12:02:56 |
| Asalaamu Alaikum ;-) What would be really useful to add to this discussion is the view of someone who was actually out there. I'd be interested in knowing what day to day Palestinians would want to happen and whether they would be prepared to accept Br Mujaahid's plan. And once again can we please engage in debate with the best of manners and be respectful of each other's views. Jazakhallah khair |
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| BroHanif |
| 04/23/02 at 12:44:02 |
| Mike, [quote]so why do you claim it was muslim land[/quote] The land was under the guidance and instruction of the Khalifat. After the first world war, most of the muslim lands were split up and each given their own puppet master, dictator or oppressor. An interesting thing to note is prior to the first world war, as you've rightly said everyone lived together in peace. However, look at the situation now, nobody sees eye to eye. The only way to establish peace is by the rule of Islamic law. Where in Judaism or Christianty will you find that the people of the book must live together in peace, you will only find that in Islam. One thing that we can establish is education the people, informing them why the fight is going on and why the fight may go on if we do not return the land. Whats the point of having a pocket of areas here and there when we are only kidding ourselves, if we really want peace we must look back to history where the mistakes were made. Land must be given back and the refugees allowed to return, simple. Salaams Hanif |
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| ltcorpest2 |
| 04/23/02 at 13:27:57 |
| Bro hanif, i would think that people of different faiths would think that their faith guides them best, this is a muslim website and i do not think i have a right to debate whether muslim law or christian law is the better way to go or any other faiths way of governing, but suffice it to say, i would think that the jews or christians think their way of governing works best for them Not that there is any concensus on what a christian or jewish governent should be like, just like i would imagine a muslim goverment would be different to different muslims. a fact of history is that between ww1 and ww2 there has been the greatest migration of people that the world has ever seen. It just seems impossible to put things back the way they were 40, 50, 100, 1,000 or 2,000 years ago. There are many people groups displaced this century (not that any of it was right), my parents escaped from Lithuania, while the rest of their families who didnt escape were sent to Siberia. We have a land claim to our farm if we wanted to. But when we went back there were people living there, how do i say to them, leave, it is our land. Not that this helps any palestinians. |
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| Maliha |
| 04/23/02 at 14:47:08 |
| [quote author=ltcorpest2 link=board=ummah;num=1019237140;start=30#34 date=04/23/02 at 13:27:57] But when we went back there were people living there, how do i say to them, leave, it is our land. Not that this helps any palestinians. [/quote] That's exactly what the European jews did to Palestinians! Maliha |
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| Dawn |
| 04/23/02 at 15:11:32 |
| [quote]We have a land claim to our farm if we wanted to. But when we went back there were people living there, how do i say to them, leave, it is our land. Not that this helps any palestinians.[/quote] I'm guessing that what Mike might be asking here is, do two wrongs make a right? If I read the situation correctly, the Jews who settled in Palestine after 1949 can be situationally compared with the family or families that settled Mike's family's land (probably on government orders). Mike's family is now in a similar situation to the displaced Palestinians, except that I think they probably have been able to make a comfortable life for themselves in the U.S. through much hard work, whereas most displaced Palestinians have been living as refugees for over 50 years. In one case, the wrong, while not being righted, has been somewhat compensated for, while in the other, not only has there been no compensation or redress, but further wrongs have been inflicted. Hence, Mike's family can "afford" to ask the question and carefully ponder the ethics of their situation, whereas the refugees have no such luxury. And Mike, I do hope that I have not presumed too much about your family situation. Please do correct me if I am wrong. |
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| Kashif |
| 04/23/02 at 15:14:11 |
| [quote author=mujaahid link=board=ummah;num=1019237140;start=15#27 date=04/23/02 at 09:14:14]Martyrdom shahida? YOU sister claimed you know what is being offered, so show me it, you cannot even seem to be able to provide a link, so how do you know whats being offered? Where you getting your facts from? Go on, a challenge from me to YOU, lets ALL see where your getting your facts from. EDITED BY ADMIN[/quote] assalaamu alaikum Isn't it better to do your own research? Anyhow, here is an article that goes over very briefly what the Israelis offered at Camp David, where they supposedly offered Arafat "more than he could ever have dreamed of": [url]http://www.jannah.org/cgi-bin/madina/YaBB.pl?board=ummah;action=display;num=1018414939[/url] Robert Fisk also alludes to it in his long article here: [url]http://www.jannah.org/cgi-bin/madina/YaBB.pl?board=ummah;action=display;num=1019107688[/url] If i were the Palestinian leader - and i feel glad i'm not, because i couldn't shoulder such a responsibility - i'd surround myself with scholars of Islam and also probably the likes of Dr. Hanan Ashrawi. With scholars of Islam at your side, you'd have people by your side guiding you through what was permissible and what was not, and they'd also be a blessing for the Palestinians themselves, insha'Allah. Mind you, even this is a dream because anyone who knows anything about the Jewish state's tactics will recall how they TARGET the Palestinian intellectuals, and university professors and graduates, and leaders generally. They do not want any form of leadership to develop amongst the Palestinians. They hardly even allow Palestinians who have studied overseas to come back to settle in the area. I think Shahida made a really perceptive remark earlier: the Jews broke their covenants with Allah time and time again. We know of their nature because of what is written in our Book.. so how can you still expect that they will deal equitably with us?* Kashif Wa Salaam * This doesn't mean every single Jew, of course, |
| NS |
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| mujaahid |
| 04/23/02 at 15:30:21 |
| [slm] "We know of their nature because of what is written in our Book.. so how can you still expect that they will deal equitably with us?*" I never said the jews will deal equitably with us. What i am saying is if their is any benefit in taking whats being offered, take it, and work from their. Obviously the "peace" plan where the palestinian state is surrounded by jewish cities is NOT acceptable. They need a large border with one of the Arab neighbours. If they can find some kind of deal for that, than take it, and build from their. But lets just remeber, suicide is haraam, murdring inncoent people is haraam, no matter what thier military have done to the palestinians, we cannot go after the innocent people. Their were 70'000 troops in the palestinian areas. PLENTY of targets thier, legitimate targets, no need to go after a few innocent civilians when you have thousands of targets on your doorstep. Salaahuddin, i think it was from the 11th or 12th century, was a shining example of the true Mujaahideen. His forces defeated a poweful crusader occupying force, and even then, did not exact a revenge on those the Barbaric crusaders who they had conquered, instead they lived peacefully side by side, for hundreds of years. It all fell apart when the muslims neglected islaam and became weak in their faith, and the jews took advantage of that. When the muslims are strong, we receive Allahs blessings and mercy. When we are weak, we receive his punishment, which is humiliation and destruction. |
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| Kashif |
| 04/23/02 at 18:45:28 |
| assalaamu alaikum C'mon bro.. get a grasp of reality! How can you compare the time of Salah ad-Deen to our time? He united the Muslim lands BEFORE re-taking Jerusalem. The Muslim lands were richer today with both taqwa and material wealth, and today that isn't the case. Kashif Wa Salaam |
| NS |
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| Mohja |
| 04/23/02 at 20:57:43 |
| [quote] How can you compare the time of Salah ad-Deen to our time? He united the Muslim lands BEFORE re-taking Jerusalem. The Muslim lands were richer today with both taqwa and material wealth, and today that isn't the case. [/quote] Could this be *exactly* what we need to accomplish before expecting victory from Allah[swt]? Also, does anyone see any parallels between the prophet's [saw] hijrah from makkah due to the qureishi oppression and his subsequent peace treaty with them to strenghthen the muslim community and between what's happening these days? especially in reference to mujaahid's proposed plan? EDITED BY ADMIN, THE ISSUE OF MARTYRDOM OPERATIONS IS NOT DISCUSSED, if you have issue, you can bring it up with an admin. The plight of our palestinian brothers and sisters is great.But what has befallen them and us is nothing but a trial. If we want to succeed we have to go back to the Qur'an and the clear teachings of our beloved prophet[saw] and stick to them. Only then can we expect the blessing and victory that Allah[awj] has promised his righteous servants. One last thing that i think is important for us to remember as explorer pointed out is that the christian palestinians are the victims of israeli oppression as much as the muslims and that they are fighting along side each other. The issue of palestine is a HUMAN RIGHTS issue, not some clash of civilizations between islam and the west as some would have us believe. The israelis and their supporters have been trying *very* hard to paint such a picture of religious conflict to divert attention from their attrocities and i'm afraid some of us are helping them inadvertently by making it sound as if it is a muslim vs non-muslim issue. This is a war that is being faught on several dimensions one of which is international public opinion=billions of $ in foreign aid to israel=weapons used against palestinians. Unfortrunately as muslim we are very inexperienced in this arena and are easily taken advantage of. |
| 04/23/02 at 22:40:54 |
| Mohja |
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| mujaahid |
| 04/24/02 at 06:21:56 |
| [slm] "get a grasp of reality! How can you compare the time of Salah ad-Deen to our time? He united the Muslim lands BEFORE re-taking Jerusalem." Bro thats the whole point of what i've been trying to say!! The muslims are not strong enough to do anything at the moment, so call a ceasefire, take whatevers being offered, plan, work towards it, and finnaly, when the time is right, carry it out! |
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| muqaddar |
| 04/24/02 at 13:26:56 |
| [slm] "You are never defeated until you accept that you are defeated" quoted from 'Some Military Geezer' ;D |
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| Anonymous |
| 04/24/02 at 14:08:14 |
| um, what's happened in this discussion is curious to me. i saw this: mujaahid started out trying to sound quite reasonable about thinking about palestine. i kind of thought maybe it came after some thinking about himself and how he is sometimes perceived here. (an aside: i feel the need to insert here, in camaraderie, that, contrary to the reactions of even some madina members to mujaahid's explosive reactiveness, if i had such things as "favorite people" he'd be my favorite here. he's real, passionate, caring, straightforward, not afraid to assert his opinions, and interesting in his range of posts. and erratic, but i can relate to that - it's a tendency that is often linked to emotions close to the surface. he'll mellow out of his erratic ways, and his minor crude comments, and his pride in himself, if that's what it is. he's aware of details in the world around him in a way that many men would be afraid to admit to - yes, i mean even having opinions on women's cosmetic interests. if i come here and see that mujaahid is here, i sit back and wait for something interesting to appear. mujaahid, you will find a woman wise enough to re-direct all that volatile energy to your mutual satisfaction. maybe she's not here, but she's somewhere.) after he offered his "new and mild mujaahid" comments, what was most interesting was that then other people took up what might have been his usual positions on elements of this issue! then i'm not sure what happened, maybe he felt trapped by the backfiring of his effort, didn't want to contradict himself, but things just started to go round and round then. i could just be completely wrong here, but didn't anyone else feel this sense of role reversal?? i guess this is just the way discussions go, though, even in person. they're rarely linear, and rarely consistent. same for people..... here are some maps. there are more at these sites: Oslo Map 1995 http://www.fmep.org/novpg5.gif (the obvious question here is where is PALESTINE on this map???!) palestinian towns destroyed: http://www.PalestineRemembered.com/Acre/Maps/Story572.html |
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