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Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| Working in a bank |
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| Sheen |
| 04/20/02 at 04:11:00 |
| [slm] everyone! I hope I can get some advice from here...One of my Muslim friend recently started working at a bank. From the Islamic education I have received, the income earned from a bank is not considered halal. Due to this reason I abstain from visiting her and so forth. I was wondering on how to approach her and inform her about the Islamic ruling concerned with banking, without offending her? Waiting for a reply... :) |
| Re: Working in a bank |
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| Kashif |
| 04/20/02 at 04:21:21 |
| assalaamu alaikum wa rahmatullah Lots of scholars have stated that it is not allowed to work directly for a bank. However, that is one issue, and abandonment of your friend is another. Yes, i know that in classical times there is a stance, whereby sinful or innovating Muslims are boycotted by the community for the reason of making them leave their mistake and coming back to the Straight Path. However, in these times, and especially in non-Muslim lands, i think the issue of boycott is completely different. When a person was boycotted in a Muslim land the person would feel isolated and want to get back amongst people, thus, leave his error. But if you boycott someone in, say, the UK, they've got plenty of other non-practising Muslims and non-Muslims to befriend. And all you might end up doing is taking away a point of contact of Islamic influence from him/her. You're the person on the ground, and would know better if you're boycott of her would make things better for her or not. And Allah knows best. Kashif Wa Salaam |
| NS |
| Re: Working in a bank |
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| Sheen |
| 04/20/02 at 16:25:14 |
| Salam, I do not want to boycott my friend...I just feel that I should inform her that working for a bank is incorrect Islamically....that's wht i dont know "how" to tell her...any suggestions? |
| Re: Working in a bank |
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| Marcie |
| 04/21/02 at 11:02:04 |
| [color=Teal] [slm] Sheen, My first question is how islamic is your friend? ??? Sometimes when we are too direct with someone they get defensive and turn us off. My advice would be to lead her in the right direction so that she discovers for herself that working in a bank is not okay. :-* Just my two cents. ;) [wlm] Marcie :-)[/color] |
| Re: Working in a bank |
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| ali |
| 04/21/02 at 12:11:01 |
| salam alaykum, Could you please direct me to the ruling regarding working in banks? Does it account for IT/Technical positions in an investment bank as well, or is it referring to working in a normal bank? walaykum as salam, -ali |
| Re: Working in a bank |
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| Chris |
| 04/21/02 at 15:55:23 |
| Halai or Harem, what you are doing to your friend is inexcusable |
| Re: Working in a bank |
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| bhaloo |
| 04/21/02 at 16:29:14 |
| [slm] Taken from: http://www.islam-qa.com/QA/5|Jurisprudence_and_Islamic_Rulings(Fiqh)/Buyoo_(Business_and_Financial_Transactions)/Riba(_Interest_)/Working_as_a_systems_engineer_in_a_riba-based_bank.10091998.2834.shtml Assalam Allaikum, My husband to be is getting a job in the computer department of a bank in XXXXX as a System engineer. I wanted to know will it be alright to accept this job. I'm very upset if this will be a 'Halal' earning or not. Please do reply me. Praise be to Allaah. If the bank you mention is based on riba (interest, usury), then it is not permitted to work in it, because of the hadeeth narrated by Jaabir, who said: “The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) cursed the one who consumes riba, the one who gives it, the one who writes it down and the ones who witness it. He said: ‘They are all the same.’” (Reported by Muslim in his Saheeh, 2995). We ask Allaah to compensate you with something better. ;================== I don't know if an investmant bank is based on riba, if it is then one shouldn't be working there in any capacity. |
| Re: Working in a bank |
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| Sheen |
| 04/22/02 at 03:51:12 |
| I'll try to rephrase my question again...I am NOT doing anything to my friend...meaning I'm not ignoring her nor being rude to her in any way possible(as Chris thinks I am) All I want to do is to inform her that working in a bank is not good. BTW, thank you Br. Arshad for the hadith abt this issue... ps- Marcie, my friend isn't too Islamic however she does follow "basic" Islam...that's why i haven't approached her directly... |
| Re: Working in a bank |
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| Abu_Atheek |
| 04/22/02 at 05:46:02 |
| [slm] • Bank employees: Misgivings about working in a bank 1. Is it permissible for me to work as an accountant in a bank or an insurance company, or to work as an underwriter in the latter, or in any other capacity? 2. For a long while I have been troubled with the fact that I am deeply involved in interest due to the fact that I work in the investment department of a commercial bank. I have thought frequently about leaving my work, but with my qualifications and experience, it is not easy to get away from interest, particularly since most companies deal with banks and borrow or invest money in interest-based transactions. Even if I go into teaching, I can only teach mathematics or accountancy, and both have much to do with interest. I will be grateful for your advice. The attitude expressed by my two readers is the one Islam aims to cultivate in its followers. When a person is involved in some sort of action, whether on a regular basis, as it is the case with these readers, or occasionally, as happens with all of us, that person must first find out whether that action is acceptable or not from the Islamic point of view. It is an attitude we must all cultivate that whatever we do must always aim at earning God’s pleasure. We benefit both in this life and in the life to come when we make that aim our guiding principle because God is always pleased with what is useful to His creatures. He has only commanded us to do what serves our own best interests and those of our fellow human beings. The Prophet says: "The dearest of all people to God are those who bring most benefit to His servants." When we try to conduct our lives in accordance with the laws He has enacted, we benefit both by being obedient and by the fact that what He has commanded us is meant to serve our best interests. Another point which I would like to make clear at the outset is that we read in the Qur’an very strong condemnation of usury. This is further emphasized in many pronouncements by the Prophet. Some people who tend to be strict often equate interest as it is practiced in the modern banking system with usury to the extent that they tend to see the one as synonymous with the other. When translating Islamic statements dealing with usury, they invariably use the word ‘interest’ for ‘usury.’ I feel that this view is rather too narrow. There are undoubtedly similarities and differences between the two which make it necessary that we deal with each of them separately. Before anybody jumps to any conclusion, I would like to make it clear that I think we are justified in saying that the similarities are sufficient to make us consider most interest-based transactions usurious in nature. Hence, they are forbidden. However, we still need to look at every type of banking transactions separately, in order to know whether we can say it is acceptable or not. Both readers are worried about getting involved with interest when they do their jobs. They realize that interest is not lawful and they want to steer away from it. I may remind my readers here of the Hadith in which the Prophet emphasizes that God curses "the person who devours usury, the one who pays it, the writer of the contract between the two parties and those who act as witnesses to the contract." So the prohibition is very strict indeed. Moreover, it applies to the peripheries of the transaction as well as to its substance. However, when we consider whether working in a bank is legitimate or not, we cannot slam a blanket ruling and say that all jobs a bank offers are forbidden, because some of them may not be. It really depends on the type of job one does, rather than the institution he works for. There are bank jobs, some of which are senior ones, which have little to do with earning or paying interest. We cannot pronounce these as forbidden. There is nothing in Islam to prevent a Muslim from working for a Christian, although the latter may firmly believe Jesus Christ to be the son of God. Which is a great offense against God: to devour usury or to falsely allege that He has a son? What we say is that if a person works in a bank and his job does not involve conducting or facilitating interest transactions then it is permissible for him to hold such a job and his salary is perfectly legitimate to earn. In modern banking, there is a variety of services that are permissible, while others are not within what is acceptable from the Islamic point of view. For example, depositing money to earn interest is not acceptable, because there is much akin to usury in such deposit accounts. On the other hand, deposits that are invested in commercial projects and earn a percentage of the profits made by such projects or incur a portion of the loss are lawful. Moreover, if he is doing some job that involves interest merely to gain banking experience and his aim is to be able to develop an alternative system which is more in line with Islamic values and principles, then he is to be encouraged. He should leave his job when he has gained all the experience he needs. On the other hand, if a person works in a bank only because this is the only job he could get, and he is certain that quitting means that he would be unemployed for a while, then we tell him that he should stay in his job and keep on the look-out for an alternative. Once he has secured another job which is more satisfactory from the Islamic point of view, he should leave immediately. There is no virtue in being unemployed or leaving one’s family in need of what charity others may give. The writer of the second letter is not particularly worried about having another job. He is highly educated, and knows that he can work as a teacher or an accountant. He is worried that such jobs also involve working with interest. He has a very valid point. The Qur’anic threat to believers to quit all dealings with usury wants that unless the system is abandoned, God and His messenger will declare war against them. This threat is not meant for individuals only, but also for communities and societies. The community which operates a system of usury will be at war with God and His messenger. That is a very serious threat indeed. Yet he is carrying things too far. A teacher of mathematics who teaches percentage and gives examples of how interest is calculated is not the same as one who works in a bank and is heavily involved in carrying through transactions that are interest-based. Nor is an accountant in a private company so much involved either, even when the company does not have any scruples about earning or paying interest. That part of his work which deals with interest will always represent a small part of his duties, unless he happens to work in a finance company, which is probably worse than working for a bank. If he is so troubled by the fact that he works for a commercial bank which does not implement the Islamic system, he should try to change his job. If he takes up a teaching or accounting job, God will reward him indeed for quitting his job in order to live in accordance with Islamic teachings. We may all be contaminated with the banking system that is based on interest, but many of us are not so heavily involved, and those are certainly in a better position than whose who help to operate that system. Working for an insurance company is not objectionable unless there are particular reasons to make it otherwise. What we are talking about here is how does the insurance company invest the money it receives from its customers as premiums. If it invests them in a usurious way then working for it is the same as working for a bank. If it invests them in legitimate businesses, then there is nothing wrong with working for it. Many people tend to think that insurance is forbidden. I have explained on several occasions that it is not. [url]http://www.ourdialogue.com/b2.htm#1[/url] The religious Editor of Arab News can be contacted at: islam@arabnews.com |
| Re: Working in a bank |
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| Barr |
| 04/22/02 at 05:56:51 |
| Assalamu'alaikum :-) Jazakallah, Abu Attheek, for the post :-) [quote]Moreover, if he is doing some job that involves interest merely to gain banking experience and his aim is to be able to develop an alternative system which is more in line with Islamic values and principles, then he is to be encouraged. He should leave his job when he has gained all the experience he needs. [/quote] I think some people overlook this point. If we want to set up an Islamic system of life, then I think it is crucial that we learn the dealings of these banks. Not to copy wholly from them, but to purify and further improve the existing systems. Afterall, with the expertise of those who have worked in these banks before, I think we can further develop the implementation of banking in Islam while living in these non-Islamic conditions. Allahua'lam :-) |
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