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Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| the Brothers' Code of Conduct thread |
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| flyboy_nz |
| 04/20/02 at 11:51:24 |
| asalaamu alaikum wr wb, alright ;-) ;-) ;-) its time for us to create our Code of Conduct ( :-) :-) :-) can help too). We all kinda know how we should act, but lets actually get this written down a bit more formally to increase our own awareness. So please try to contribute at least one item each with reference to Quran or Sunnah. "A real ;-) should...." At the end I hope to have a summarised list probably in the format of a personal reminder list that bros can print out: [center][color=Blue]To be a real ;-), I will [list][*][*][*][/list][/color][/center] ok, jazakAllahu khair in advance, wasalaam, ;-) Ahmed |
| Re: the Brothers' Code of Conduct thread |
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| Murshidah |
| 04/21/02 at 01:13:54 |
| [slm] Here's my input :-)...I'm going to change the ;-) into Muslims because many sisters also are facing the problems... To be better Muslims we must... Never put ouselves in situations we might regret later, even a look can lead to much haraam... Umar related that the Prophet Muhammad [saw] said, "Not one of you should meet a woman alone unless she is accompanied by a relative (mahram)" (Bukhari/Muslim). The Prophet [saw] also reportedly said, "Whenever a man is alone with a woman, Satan (Shaytan) is the third among them" (Tirmidhi) At all times, Muslims should follow the commands of the Qur'an (24:30-31) to "lower their gaze and guard their modesty...." All of these are evidence to back that rule... To be Muslims we must always conduct ouselves with the utmost hayaa when you must interact with members of the opposite sex... Be not soft in speech, lest those whose heart is a disease should be moved with desire...-Quran al-ahzaab ayaah 32 To be better Muslims we must stop justifying our actions because 'eveyone else is doing them..' Allah says, "And if you obey most of those on the Earth, they will mislead you far from Allah's path..." Soorah Al'An'aam Ayaah 116 at the same time we must all learn to pratice what we preach... Allah says, "Most hateful it is with Allah that you say that which you do not do." Sorrah Al Saff Ayaah 3 "Enjoin you al-Birr on the people and you forget to practice it yourselves whil you recite the Scripture! Have you no sense?" Soraah Al Baqarah Ayaah 3 InshaAllah someone can give the translation of Al-Birr I'm sure how to put in in English... May Allah subahan wa ta'aal forgive me for any mistakes I have made, and may he give all the wisdom to practice the hayaa and adab of our Prophet [saw] Ameen ya Rabb.. [wlm] |
| Re: the Brothers' Code of Conduct thread |
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| mujaahid |
| 04/22/02 at 11:49:20 |
| [slm] Fly_boy is your list about everyday life, or specific to the internet? Well lower your gaze is one!! And control your tongue. Dont Backbite. Dont take part in, or encourage others to do haraam |
| Re: the Brothers' Code of Conduct thread |
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| jannah |
| 04/22/02 at 13:15:44 |
| To be a better brother.... ok here's what i WISH brothers would do: 1. have the same level of haya with Muslim sisters as with non-muslim girls 2. not assume someone is after them if a sister says "salam" 3. help sisters when they need help ie carrying something to the car, moving tables (we will not assume anything if you do this sheesh) 4. say salam to strange sisters in the street, in the mall etc (we will not assume anything if you do this... etc) |
| Re: the Brothers' Code of Conduct thread |
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| jannah |
| 04/22/02 at 13:15:58 |
| 5. take initiative once in awhile to organize or do something 6. don't judge girls who don't wear hijab as lesser muslims --they may be better muslims than you! 7. do things islamically straightforward instead of being shady about things 8. be aware of protecting sisters in certain places --walk them to the car after the msa meeting ends at 11:30pm, stay with them as a group when traveling to stuff, at protests etc (we will not assume anything blah blah) 9. be available for stuff sisters cannot do alone -- ie a new muslim brother wants to know about islam, a muslim guy is visiting the town and needs ppl to hang out with and finally 10. don't develop close "friendships" with sisters when it just means "friendship" to you, to the sister it seems like "marriage", so avoid it altogether unless the interest is marriage and state that at the beginning. |
| Re: the Brothers' Code of Conduct thread |
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| BroHanif |
| 04/22/02 at 14:08:35 |
| [quote]say salam to strange sisters in the street, in the mall etc [/quote] You must be kidding me in the mall ??? can u explain your judgemnet Jannah with polite words. Especially when they are strange ...???? [quote]not assume someone is after them if a sister says "salam" [/quote] Is this the same for you sistaz as well then, if somebody says salaamz what do you think...,be honest. Personally speaking I'm a bit skeptical of sisters that are not related to me saying salaamz I get a bit uncomfortable. But then thats me. Salaams Hanif |
| Re: the Brothers' Code of Conduct thread |
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| jannah |
| 04/22/02 at 14:56:31 |
| i don't know maybe in england there are muslims everywhere so no one cares, but here it's like rare to see other muslims and i just think it's like rude if a muslim passes you by, and he KNOWS you're muslim (ie hijab) and just completely ignores you.. it's like if something were to happen in the mall he'd just ignore you too... i don't know about other sisters.. maybe they are uncomfortable esp in strange big cities etc.. but most ppl tend to live in a community and if we can't even say salam to each other in the mall what kind of community are we? maybe if you can't bring yourself to say salam at least nod or something in acknowledgement??? i dunno |
| Re: the Brothers' Code of Conduct thread |
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| Maliha |
| 04/22/02 at 15:07:31 |
| [slm] I remember how exasperated I was on campus when we past by brothers who had no problem talking, greeting, etc to Non Muslim girls but wouldn't even return salaam when we offered them! It made me mad especially considering that our numbers were small and it was sad that we could interact with non Muslims yet not even have the courtesy of saying salaams to our fellow brothers and sisters...when we brought this issue up in a meeting, the brothers' response was "We respect you sisters, that's why we don't offer salaamz&qukt; Huh??? It didn't even make sense ::) It is narrated on the authority of 'Abdullah b. 'Amr that a man asked the Messenger of Allah (may peace and blessings be upon him) which of the merits (is superior) in Islam. He (the Holy Prophet) remarked: That you provide food and extend greetings to one whom you know or do not know. I personally feel uncomfortable giving salaams to a brother, but as narrated in another hadith (I can't find it)..brothers are supposed to extend greetings to sisters, passerbys to those sitting down, and young to old...It's just basic respect :P Wa Allahu A'alam. Maliha :-) [wlm] |
| 04/23/02 at 14:42:30 |
| Maliha |
| Re: the Brothers' Code of Conduct thread |
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| mujaahid |
| 04/22/02 at 16:11:22 |
| [slm] "help sisters when they need help ie carrying something to the car, moving tables (we will not assume anything if you do this sheesh) " I think sisters should learn to lift weights themselves!! Its not hard!! And i aint being funny, moving tables is easy stuff, even for sisters. Sisters sometimes make out they are always damsels in distress, especially when it comes to moving a few tables!! Come on sisters, move the stuff yourselves. "say salam to strange sisters in the street, in the mall etc (we will not assume anything if you do this... etc)" i dont know about anyone else, but i would not feel comfortable saying salaams to a sister who isnt related to me. Its not about being rude, its more to do with lowering your gaze. If you are gona say salaam, you undoubtadly will make eye contact. Not very islaamic with a sister who is a stranger. Your eyes are the windows to your hearts. "do things islamically straightforward instead of being shady about things" I dont understand this, please explain :) "don't develop close "friendships" with sisters when it just means "friendship" to you, to the sister it seems like "marriage", so avoid it altogether unless the interest is marriage and state that at the beginning." Dont develop friendships full stop. If your interested in marrying a sister, then make this clear, if you dont wanna marry her, you should not even be speaking to her, let alone being "friends"!! "and if we can't even say salam to each other in the mall what kind of community are we?" An Islaamic one. The sisters should say Salaam to sisters, brothers to the others. I dont think we should go around giving salams to single sisters. It just dont seem right. I would not say salaam to a sister, and i would hope she realises its because if Islaamic Adab, not snottiness, but if something did happen like she was attacked, then i would immediatly help. And thats somethign the sisters should realise. A brother may not say salaam to you out of Shyness (lowering gaze), but that dont mean he wont help you if you needed help. "maybe if you can't bring yourself to say salam at least nod or something in acknowledgement" Lower the Gaze. Or have people forgotton that? If a brother and sis wife were out shopping, then i would hope the wife would say salaams to a passing sister, maybe the brother as well, because his wife is with him. |
| Re: the Brothers' Code of Conduct thread |
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| explorer |
| 04/22/02 at 17:57:57 |
| [slm] I agree with brohanif and mujaahid. I couldn't say salaam to a sister whom I don't even know. Sisters feel intimidated by strangers talking to them let alone out of the blue. Furthermore it may put her in an uncomfortable or embarassing position which is the last thing I would want. That certainly is the reason for me. As for acknowledgement its a good thing this was brought up, I really need to know ;) Would sisters take a timid smile as acknowledgement? :) Is that allowed? [quote]10. don't develop close "friendships" with sisters when it just means "friendship" to you, to the sister it seems like "marriage", so avoid it altogether unless the interest is marriage and state that at the beginning. [/quote] Interesting point Jannah. I think a line needs to be drawn at the point where a friendship becomes 'close'. However the sticky point is male and females have differing views as to what is 'close'. Men need to be aware the threshold is far lower for women than for men. I remember all this stuff was discussed in detail on the old board. |
| 04/22/02 at 18:02:40 |
| explorer |
| Re: the Brothers' Code of Conduct thread |
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| Caraj |
| 04/22/02 at 18:39:25 |
| Isn't saying Salaam (meaning peace) like saying hello, peace to you? Why would this be so difficult? No one said to say, Hey baby and get her number :o Especially in a non Muslim country (or community) I would think saying a brief, Salaam, eyes cast down would be a respectful way of saying briefly ...... "Peace, (hello) hope you are well, we are of the same beliefs, glad to know I'm not alone, go in peace" and "Have a nice day" Just a thought. If I see an elderly man or woman on the street I say hello, and walk on. To me that is letting them know they are not alone. Might even make someone day to feel they are cared about as a human being. Does Allah/God want us to feel alone and lonely? I don't think so. But this is just my opinion. One other though it, please don't assume us non-Muslim women are not worthy of respect. We are not all lose and lacking morals. |
| 04/22/02 at 18:41:06 |
| Caraj |
| Re: the Brothers' Code of Conduct thread |
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| Road2Jannah |
| 04/22/02 at 19:13:30 |
| [slm] I agree, with certain brothers about the fact that they wouldnt feel comfertable about it, but if u guys see it the postive way it shouldnt be that hard. U shouldnt forget that u would be getting alot of hasant. As The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) explained the reward earned by the one who says salaam, as was reported by al-Nisaa’i in ‘Aml al-yawm wa’l-laylah (368) and al-Bukhaari in al-Adab al-Mufrad (586) and by Ibn Hibban (493). They reported from Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him) that a man passed by the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) whilst he was sitting with some others, and said “Salaam ‘alaykum (peace be upon you).” The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, “[He will have] ten hasanaat (rewards).” Another man passed by and said “Salaam ‘alaykum wa rahmat-Allaah (peace be upon you and the mercy of Allaah).” The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, “[He will have] twenty hasanaat.” Another man passed by and said “Salaam ‘alaykum wa rahmat-Allaahi wa barakaatuhu (peace be upon you and the mercy of Allaah and His blessings).” The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, “[He will have] thirty hasanaat.” This shows that inshallah, if ur intentions were for the reward, and not to look at the sister or anything, then u would only be winning more reward. ALso where the rasul pbuh said “You will not enter Paradise until you believe, and you will not believe until you love one another. Shall I not tell you about something which, if you do it, you will love one another? Spread salaam amongst yourselves.” So subhanallah everything is set out for us. If you brothers feel it will be fitnah for you then dont do it;same with the sisters. But if you lower your gaze, and say it with clear intention, then no need to pull back. Inshallah i hope we all have the clear niya to do only what pleases Allah. May Allah make thinks easy on us inshallah, ameen. [wlm] |
| Re: the Brothers' Code of Conduct thread |
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| BrKhalid |
| 04/23/02 at 06:05:36 |
| Asalaamu Alaikum ;-) [quote]I remember all this stuff was discussed in detail on the old board[/quote] The [u][url=http://www.jannah.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl/YaBB.pl?board=brothers&action=display&num=4093&start=0]Shopping Checkout[/url][/u] thread springs to mind. |
| 04/23/02 at 06:06:47 |
| BrKhalid |
| Re: the Brothers' Code of Conduct thread |
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| se7en |
| 04/23/02 at 13:01:10 |
| Betsy Phenomenon in full effect!!! :P |
| Re: the Brothers' Code of Conduct thread |
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| muqaddar |
| 04/23/02 at 13:37:34 |
| [slm] hmm i have brother who don't go to the cinema cause they consider it haram and brothers who drink in private and brothers who live in an absolute fantasy world where they lie about their job earnings etc despite the fact that we know the truth I also have sisters who are sexually active and unmarried and others who wear the hijab and only talk to me when other people are present. I try to advise everybody to the best of my ability and help them to the best of my ability. I also try to introduce the bad to the good so they can become better muslims and i hope that by keeping the company of the pious i can become a better muslim and by keeping company with the weak muslims i can be more understanding. I think saying salaam to any muslim in an area where there are few muslims is like ointment for the eyes and happiness for the heart ! how can you avoid doing it! jazakallah |
| Re: the Brothers' Code of Conduct thread |
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| Mehak |
| 04/23/02 at 13:42:13 |
| [slm], I just wanted to pitch in and offer my two cents worth: Up here in my school, I m the only muslim girl and we have perhaps 10-12 muslim bros. I dont know all of them,infact have only talked to like a couple bcuz they are in my class etc. So,it feels very very nice when a bro passing by says salam and makes me think that I am not alone in this whole school who is different(different in sense of language, thoughts etc). It dont mean that we stop and talk for couple hours or meet for lunch etc. Its just salam ,people!! :-* [wlm] |
| Re: the Brothers' Code of Conduct thread |
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| explorer |
| 04/23/02 at 17:01:13 |
| Can some of the sisters please answer my question!! :o ;D Anyhow I think the general consensus from sisters seems to be that when muslims are scarce, they more than welcome a salaam from a brother. Maybe it gives reassurance that they're not alone, there are more muslims around and brothers willing to extent their greeting to them to bring the otherwise small community together. Much like creating a family atmosphere in an otherwise alien atmosphere :) |
| Re: the Brothers' Code of Conduct thread |
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| nouha |
| 04/23/02 at 17:58:13 |
| [slm] mujahid -- even if we lifted weights, that might not even be enough for us to carry really huge boxes, Allah(SWT) made one gender physically stronger than the other, and since u have the benefit of being the gender who has the physical ability, then it up to you to help us out with matters such as lifting heavy boxes etc. Allah(SWT) allready said that males are the protectors of females, if this wasnt the case, then there would be no rapes, no sexual harrasment, no domestic violence etc.... why? because we would be physically capable of protecting ourselves. wasalam nouha:) |
| Re: the Brothers' Code of Conduct thread |
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| talib_ilm |
| 04/23/02 at 18:39:39 |
| Assalam Alaykum Waramatullah, With regards to the question of the Salam, I think we should put forward the saying of Allah and His messenger prior to talking about what we think or not think (whether say salam or not say salam because of haya or whatever other reasons we might have) Because at the end it is only opinions and what counts is what Allah and His Messenger (saw) legislates... I think the following question should be asked: Is there any clear commandment in the Quran that asks us to say Salam to each other? (if yes was it gender specific?) If no then Can we find any example of the approval or disapproval of saying Salam to the opposite gender in the Sunnah? For example Did the Prophet (saw) say salam to the women when He(sa) taught them the deen? Did He(saw) say salam to the sisters that came to take the pledge? Did the Prophet (saw) encourage us to say Salam to each other? (If yes was it gender specific?) Ok lets say for example we don't find any evidence from the sunnah. Then lets ask is there any evidence from the practice of the salaf (sahaba, tabien, tabi-tabien) that salam was said or not said to the opposite sex. Hey jannah sample questions for madinah madness! :) If we do not find answers to any of the questions then Alhamdulillah, we can choose that which we think is closest to the truth. Often times the answers we find are not what we want. By the way I don't know the answers to all the questions I just typed, but I think if we find answers to them It would help us understand the salam issue. So if you know the answer to some of the questions, please post them inshaAllah. We all can benefit from them. inshaAllah. sorry if my post offended anyone. Wasalam Alaykuym Waramatullah AbdulKareem |
| Re: the Brothers' Code of Conduct thread |
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| Kathy |
| 04/23/02 at 20:50:43 |
| [quote] acknowledgement its a good thing this was brought up, I really need to know Would sisters take a timid smile as acknowledgement? [/quote] [slm] I would not mind at all. I would find it to be respectful for the Brother to give me salaams. Probably because I see so many of them talk at ease with women and then look the other way when they pass a Musimah. Nothing wrong with salaams!- It is like having our own secret handshake- of the best club in the world!! Islam! |
| Re: the Brothers' Code of Conduct thread |
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| Dawn |
| 04/24/02 at 02:44:53 |
| [quote author=nouha link=board=bro;num=1019317884;start=15#17 date=04/23/02 at 17:58:13] Allah(SWT) allready said that males are the protectors of females, if this wasnt the case, then there would be no rapes, no sexual harrasment, no domestic violence etc.... why? because we would be physically capable of protecting ourselves. [/quote] I might change this to -- far fewer rapes, less sexual harrasment, less domestic violence. It doesn't matter how strong one is, male or female, there is little to be done when someone is pointing a gun at you or holding one to your back or head. And also keep in mind that not all rape victims or victims of domestic violence are female, though the majority are. There are just some plain bad people in this world. :( |
| Re: the Brothers' Code of Conduct thread |
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| nouha |
| 04/24/02 at 17:09:26 |
| [slm] your right dawn, there would be less and none, sorry for that mistake, on the rape note.... today at my college they put 1871 little yellow flags on the lawn to represent how many women get raped forcibly each day in america, statistics show that its 78 an hour, subhanallah..... wasalam nouha:) |
| Re: the Brothers' Code of Conduct thread |
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| se7en |
| 04/25/02 at 02:08:17 |
| as salaamu alaykum wa rahmatAllah, [quote]As for acknowledgement its a good thing this was brought up, I really need to know Would sisters take a timid smile as acknowledgement? Is that allowed? [/quote] Do you mean a smile *without* salaam? Heck no that's not acknowledgement :P Not to be mean to ya, but how is a sister supposed to differentiate between you, a well meaning brother that's too shy to say salaam, and some player that happens to have dark features and a sly smile? Just say "as salaamu alaykum" and it's all good :-) Hmm.. I like Jannah's advice very much: please stop the shadiness :P If y'all just do things in an upfront and direct manner, inshaAllah no one will question or second guess your intentions. And if acting that way *does* cause eybrows to rise or speculation to come about.. so what ??? Are we really so concerned about what other people think that we won't do what's right? Can you imagine if Safwan ibn al-Mu'attal left Aisha in the desert out of fear of what people might say? What kind of man would that have made Safwan? Another thing Jannah mentioned to me that I find to be very true is that people cannot continue to maintain extremes. It is *impossible* to function in the societies we live in without at least some minimal interaction between the two sexes. So what happens then? We're vigilant around Muslims, and lax around non-Muslims? Or we're lax with a certain group of bro/sisters that we're comfortable with, but with others we enforce rules of deep respect and silent righteousness? I don't know.. that doesn't seem right to me. I think we need to be consistent in our behavior. Allahu a'lam. Just some thoughts on the issue. wasalaamu alaykum wa rahmatAllah :-) |
| 04/25/02 at 03:17:07 |
| se7en |
| Re: the Brothers' Code of Conduct thread |
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| BroHanif |
| 04/25/02 at 17:58:50 |
| Sis se7en, I find your post a bit hard to swallow. [quote]Do you mean a smile *without* salaam? Heck no that's not acknowledgement [/quote] C'mon sis its not as easy as that, you can't simply give somebody a salaam with a smile, that simply does not work. Think of the number of interactions that take place. First the look, then the inclination in the heart to do the smile, then the smile, then the stirring of the heart and then checking your intention again to make sure the whisper of shaytaan is not brought forth. How can you do this ???? I find it very hard to adopt this as who knows you may see something that you like and then that leads to other sins. Lets be frank we all have desires whether we are married or not, whether we are imans or not, whether we are old or young. A way has been prescribed by prophet [saw] how to stay away from zinah and that is controlling the eyes. When you look at someone and smile and its the opposite sex maybe the whisper of shaytaan won't on the 999th time but it will happen one day. So why do such and action, zinah and adultery start of by looking, smiling, the nod of the face the talk i.e salamz or hi etc etc !. [quote]Are we really so concerned about what other people think that we won't do what's right? [/quote] I guess not, we should be concerned about what Allah would say. [quote]Can you imagine if Safwan ibn al-Mu'attal left Aisha in the desert out of fear of what people might say? What kind of man would that have made Safwan? [/quote] The example is out of proportion, the desert is different from the mall. In the desert you have little chance of survival if you are not climatised to it. If I were in the desert with a sister, my first priority would be to save the both of us and even then I would have to carry out survival operations within the confines of Islaam. In the mall what is the excuse for an unmarried brother and sister to be together ? None unless the brother is protecting the sister from some harm. [quote]It is *impossible* to function in the societies we live in without at least some minimal interaction between the two sexes. So what happens then? We're vigilant around Muslims, and lax around non-Muslims? [/quote] Yes to a certain degree, I guess we do need some interaction, however, some bros and sisters become vigilant around the opposite party. Reason for this I feel and so do some of my bros that theres respect and honour when they talk to a muslim sister/brother. When they are around non-muslims the environment as my friends say is a bit different, why, because they feel that the non-muslim is not someone who they would like to get married to or would be attracted to. In recent discussions with my friends they want someone in hijaab and someone who is on the same par as them, thats why they adopt more haya when they are around muslim sisters. Yet this does not mean that they natter away with the opposite sex who are not muslims perhaps a little less formal. Anyway just my thoughts.... Hanif |
| Re: the Brothers' Code of Conduct thread |
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| Seeker |
| 04/26/02 at 00:26:44 |
| [quote author=se7en link=board=bro;num=1019317884;start=15#22 date=04/25/02 at 02:08:17]Do you mean a smile *without* salaam? Heck no that's not acknowledgement :P Not to be mean to ya, but how is a sister supposed to differentiate between you, a well meaning brother that's too shy to say salaam, and some player that happens to have dark features and a sly smile? Just say "as salaamu alaykum" and it's all good :-) [/quote] [slm] my Ummah! is a smile not sadaqah? and is not giving salaam a way to preserve haya? where is our brother and sisterhood? we need to strengthen our Ummah be erasing that finely defined fine between gender relations. In an organization, brothers on one side not conversing with sisters will get us no where. We should be able to confortably talk with each other, BUT with modification. Boundaries are the keys in Islam, they are our mercy. For example, at the Demonstration in DC, there as no even separation among the ranks, but haya was still conserved. Brothers and sisters were joined together in one cause. This is the way it should be. If we can't even say salaam to each other, where's our futrue going to go? When we say salaam it should be up front and direct. It's really not that hard. Saying salaam to somoeone of the opposite gender does not mean you have lost your haya. One should simply say it with the intention of sending peace and to acknowlege that you two are on the same wavelengths. This simple act of kindess creates a link between two muslims which will help in the long run, escpecially if you feel all alone on a campus. I would feel personally shot if a brother of mine walk right by, even in a mall, and said nothing. *especially* if i was the one to say salaam first and it went in one ear and out the other. -the key is to be direct, without any inside feelings of..is it this or is it that. (yes I know, it takes self control which we all need to work on..;) ~Tauhirah |
| Re: the Brothers' Code of Conduct thread |
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| Marcie |
| 04/26/02 at 10:44:28 |
| [color=Teal] [slm] I just want to know how a sister is going to see the smile if she is busy lowering her gaze? ??? I have noticed that brothers who have grown up in the west find it easier to say salamu alaykum, then brothers who have recently come over. I think that a brother's choice not to greet a sister should also be respected. You can't force someone to do something that he/she does not feel comfortable doing. Just my two cents. :-* [wlm] Marcie[/color] |
| 04/26/02 at 11:59:02 |
| Marcie |
| Re: the Brothers' Code of Conduct thread |
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| se7en |
| 04/26/02 at 13:31:46 |
| as salaamu alaykum wa rahmatAllah, You don't have to agree with me... like the song says, don’t be offended, this is all my opinion, nothing that I’m saying is law.. it's just a true confession of some life learned lessons that I wanted to share with y'all :) I personally do not feel comfortable sitting here saying it's improper for a brother to say salaam to a sister when I have daily interaction with people of the opposite sex. Not only do I say/return salaam, but I engage in *actual conversation* with people of the opposite sex, and I smile, and I laugh sometimes too. [and y'all do it too.. right here on this message board ;)] I guess I'm moving away from the issue of saying salaam to a random sister/bro on the bus. My problem is with hypocricy in what we say and what we do. Often times we give the impression that *any* interaction between men and women is haraam - and I have a problem with that, when we, on a daily basis, interact with the opposite sex, when this type of interaction is necessary for our MSA's and our communities to function. And having this sort of attitude really stifles us and prevents a lot of good from coming about. Allahu a'lam. ps - how about a salaam without a smile? :) I'd be happy with that. :P |
| Re: the Brothers' Code of Conduct thread |
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| flyboy_nz |
| 04/26/02 at 18:21:00 |
| asalaamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu, :o I only checked into Madina last night life has truely been amazingly crazy lately... jazakAllahu khair for the suggestions. In terms of the"'Salaam" issue perhaps I can add some of the TTC wisdom that I've learnt. The general rule that I apply is that in Ibadaat (worship), everything is forbidden except what is allowed- this is to avoid bid'ah(innovation). However in Mu'amalaat (social issues) everything is permissible except what is forbidden. We also need to keep in mind the different levels of permissibility- is it compulsory? encouraged? neutral? discouraged? forbidden? So where abouts are we in the issue of saying "Salaam" to the opposite sex? Perhaps we need to use a bit of hikmah (wisdom) in the matter and look at the situation and our intentions. okay breakfast time... I'll write more on this later, wasalaam, Ahmed |
| Re: the Brothers' Code of Conduct thread |
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| Supa_Star_Sista |
| 04/26/02 at 19:34:30 |
| [slm] i wanna help .... i don't like the way MEN think ::) so stop thinking that way be a good muslim and GROW A BEARD ;D be a man [wlm] |
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| nabeela |
| 04/26/02 at 19:37:23 |
| asalaamu alaikum, i've found the best way to say salaam to a person of the opposite sex is to say it right as you pass them, this way if a guy says salaam like that, and a girl turns to see who it was, all she sees is the back of his head and chances are she won't get any false messages. and if a girl says salaam, vice versa. the other person knows that he/she was being respectful, thats all. and its cool if you are too shy or uncomfortable to say salaam, just as long as you aren't hello-ing every non-muslim girl. but when there is a lack of muslims, it does make a person happy to know that there are other muslims out there. Also if you are new to a highly muslim populated area it really makes you feel alone when 10 muslims pass you by and don't even acknowledge your existence. well as long as you have the right intention do what is right for you. [wlm] |
| Re: the Brothers' Code of Conduct thread |
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| explorer |
| 04/27/02 at 06:28:22 |
| [slm] Wow! :) I think nearly every sister in this thread is ok with a brother saying salaam, stranger or not, while brothers are the opposite. Could it be most sisters here live in areas where muslims are scarce? In that case the yearning for salaam is understandable as one wishes to at least see a muslim face around and bring them closer together. However I would find it interesting to see how you lot actually react in practice because so many sisters i know don't feel comfortable with a stranger saying salaam to them. Its all very well saying salaam as a good deed but one must also be aware of interactions with strangers. One of main *fear* the sisters I know have is this salaam and smile may encourage the brother to follow up with a conversation or something, a situation with which they are not comfortable having to face. A stranger is exactly that, a stranger: you don't know how he will follow up. A greeting out of the blue from someone you don't even know can stun you, leave you embarassed or in a confused position you don't want to fall into. Personally(apart from haya issues) that is *my* fear for sisters and don't want to put them in. Maybe I'm looking too much into it, i dont know ::) If on the other hand you work or study with the sister or you see each other around often in the prayer room etc then theres no harm in saying salaam as you have that familiarity with each other. In this case I definately say a quiet salaam to sisters whom I 'mildy' know or recognise. But for random sisters, its a no-no :P As flyboy said above, its the actual *situation* we have to look at. [wlm] |
| 04/27/02 at 12:57:44 |
| explorer |
| Re: the Brothers' Code of Conduct thread |
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| Somaira |
| 04/27/02 at 09:15:59 |
| Assalamualaikum! This thread is great lol -- okay, so I'm a student at UConn, and we have very FEW muslims on campus unfortunately, soooo when I'm walking around campus, and someone flies by me, and suddenly I hear a "salaam", it feels soooo great. I really really really love it, and it makes you feel good knowing there are other Muslims around you. As for smiles, its difficult to ascretain ??? whether its a sly smile, or a general, nice, smile for the heart, so a salaam with a smile would definetly be the way to goo inshaAllah!!! just my two cents..must go write those dozen papers :o I have due this week now. Take care, :-* ws Somaira |
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| bhaloo |
| 04/27/02 at 09:23:42 |
| [slm] [quote author=se7en link=board=bro;num=1019317884;start=15#26 date=04/26/02 at 13:31:46]Not only do I say/return salaam, but I engage in *actual conversation* with people of the opposite sex, and I smile, and I laugh sometimes too. [/quote] :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o Does Lightningatnite know? Ohmygawd!!!! Jannah you better watch out for this one. But like all the other brothers (most of them) here have said, I wouldn't feel comfortable saying salaam to some random sister. I would like to, but I am too shy to say it, for the reasons mentioned by the brothers. |
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| Murshidah |
| 04/27/02 at 11:00:57 |
| [slm] When I first started school here in Atlanta I was the only :-) in school and I was hoping for a salaam from someone, anyone. I was hoping for anyone to come and be like, "I'm Muslim too!" No one came though, but I saw people who 'looked Muslim.' It wasn't until I went to sign up for a class and found out there was twenty other people with the same last name as me I realized how many Muslims there. I would take it as a sign of respect if one of them had given me salaams, and let me know I wasn't the only Muslim in the school. But what ticks me off is I see these people talking to freely with non-Muslim girls, and the Muslim girls run away from me if I get two feet by them, scared I suppose of being seen with 'the covered girl.' When I leaved in an area where there was more Muslims I didn't get any salaams from most of the brothers and I was fine with that, since I'm not all that comfortable with doing it either. Especially cuz some Desi guys get the wrong idea if you do. It's like they get Aunty on the speed dial as they say walikum. Allahu Alem...May Allah strengthen our Ummah... [wlm][color=Navy][/color] |
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| Anonymous |
| 04/28/02 at 04:58:12 |
| Salaam, I think i have to agree with se7en on that one. We shouldn't be open with the non-muslim and ignore the muslim. A muslim should always treat a muslim as a brother or sister first and foremost. It me Muqaddar by the way my login is naffed for some reason [Admin note: Muqaddir send jannah or bhaloo an email] |
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| M.F. |
| 04/28/02 at 06:21:58 |
| [slm] Ok so to sum up, sisters like hearing salaam from any Muslim, and it doesn't NECESSARILY have to be with a smile (actually I myself wouldn't want the smile) But most brothers feel uncomfortable saying salaam to sisters they don't know cause they're too shy, or they think it might be taken the wrong way. However, this thread has proven that it won't be taken the wrong way, we promise, ok? As long as you don't smile. Cause if you smile then we'll feel like we have to smile back and that just doesn't work. Did someone say speed dial? ;) It's actually interesting that we use all these smiley faces here. I would never ;) at a brother or do this ;D in real life and yet here I am using them as though they were part of my regular body language. ::) |
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| BlessedToBeMuslim |
| 04/28/02 at 07:52:57 |
| Assalamu Alaikum, If y'all think it's such an issue then why don't you go ahead and do a survey in your repsected uniuversities among the muslims and a more represented less biased view of the issue? It's one thing the say that you won't think of a salam as meaning anything and another thing to say that WE WOMEN won't think of anything,. BUt frankly we should now the Islamic view from a scholar FIRST regarding the issue. Wassalamu Alaikum, Uzer |
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| Abu_Hamza |
| 04/28/02 at 16:31:25 |
| [slm] [quote]BUt frankly we should now the Islamic view from a scholar FIRST regarding the issue.[/quote] Before I say anything, I would like to remind myself and others that things pertaining to mu'aamalaat [dealings with people] are considered halaal in general, unless there is a clear nass [evidence] from the Qur'an and/or Sunnah which makes it forbidden. Therefore, saying salaam to a member of the opposite sex is an act which, in its asl [original legal ordainment], is permissible (*at least*, if not recommended) unless someone can bring the evidence that it is not. So the burden of proof, in this case, is upon the person who says that we are forbidden from greeting the member of the opposite sex. Having said that, there are a few narrations from the traditions of the Prophet [saw] which make it very clear that the Prophet [saw] himself used to greet non-mahram women when his path would cross their path. Here are two examples from Riyaadh-us-Saaliheen: Narrated Asma bint Yazid (RA): Allah's Messenger passed by us when we were with a party of women, and he saluted us. [Abu Dawud] Narrated Asma bint Yazid(RA): Allah's Messenger passed through the mosque one day and there was a group of women (about ten of them) sitting in the mosque. He raised his hand to offer salutations.[At-Tirmidhi] Insha Allah both of these ahadith are authentic, and Allah knows best. If anyone seeks further fiqhi elaboration on this matter, they can see a relevant fatwa from Islam-QA.com [url=http://65.193.50.117/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=1121&dgn=2]here[/url]. Wallaahu ta'aala a'lam. Wassalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh. |
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| siddiqui |
| 04/29/02 at 18:24:46 |
| Phew !!!!!!!!!!!!!! [slm] AND [wlm] TO ALL THE BROTHERS AND SISTERS HERE :) |
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| Anonymous |
| 04/30/02 at 03:22:02 |
| Assalamu Alaikum Just to add another question to the saying salaam. For those of you who are married do you feel more or less comfortable saying salaam then when you were single? |
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| Kathy |
| 04/30/02 at 09:05:00 |
| [slm] I say it the same way- no difference before or after- except I usually do not give salaams first to a man if my husband is with me. |
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| flyboy_nz |
| 05/03/02 at 12:00:18 |
| asalaamu alaikum, okay it seems like we have one thing kinda resolved- so first point: [center][blue] To be a real ;-) I will: [list][*]Say salaams to :-) while running past, with my gaze cast downwards and not smiling[/list][/blue][/center] okay so did I get it right? :D or maybe we can smile as long as the sisters don't see us doing it and get funny ideas. wasalaam, Ahmed |
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| Mohja |
| 05/03/02 at 12:27:44 |
| [slm] I don't think sisters will get ANY ideas if the brother just keeps walking after saying the salaam- with or without a smile. Dodgy types just don't do that! They're usually busy looking you up and down and saying distastful remarks.It's comforting to see brothers out there who are respectful *and* willing to acknowledge their sisters in islam. I was sitting,with my mother and a cousin, at a restaurant in the O'Hare airport last year on our way home from ISNA when a group of brothers passed by our table. I didn't even notice there were other muslims in that restaurant; our table was adjacent to the exit door. On their way out, ALL of them(they must've been at least 6 or 7) said the salaam, one at a time, and kept walking. I can't tell you the feeling of respect and community that we experienced at that moment. So brothers, next time you see a sister,just say the salaam and continue on your way. That's what i do! Just my 2 cents :) wassalam |
| 05/03/02 at 12:38:25 |
| Mohja |
| Re: the Brothers' Code of Conduct thread |
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| sis |
| 05/08/02 at 09:48:32 |
| alsalamu alaykum wa rhmat Allah wa barakatuhu i agree with brother's saying salams...say it...it really makes a difference for the community. ...but just don't go completely out of your way to say salams ;D..i mean if the sister doesn't notice u...u may startle her or something and then it'll seem pretty awkward now i just thought i'd mention this..it hasn't happened to me or anything but i've heard of it happening quite recently in the area.... a brother had been going up to sisters asking them what they would think if a good muslim brother asked them for their phone # (of crouse for marriage purposes) ...alhamdulillah the answer he was given was "A good muslim brother wouldn't be asking sister's for their #" -brother's do not go up to a sister and ask her for her number...that's a NO NO ;) hmmm what else....just act like a bro ...nothing too complicated right? ...just remember in the end everything we do is to please Allah ta'ala and we should keep that in mind always insha'Allah |
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| Anonymous |
| 05/08/02 at 17:50:13 |
| Assalaamu Alaikum I am a sister and I am very suprised at the responses by other sisters saying that they would not mind a brother smiling or saying salaam to them. I do not believe that this is the practice of the muslims. If the brother and sister do not know one another then there is no need for any kind of communication between them other than if the sister is in some kind of trouble and the brother, as part of his duty as a muslim, will help her. However, this should not really arise because the sister should be with or will be calling her mahrem. As muslims, particularly sisters, we have to be very careful in our manners and dealings when we are not in the home. There is no reason for smiles or salaams from brothers to sisters and vice versa, and there is no evidence as far as I am aware from the sahabi (ra) that this should be the case. when it comes to sisters greeting other sisters, then greet as many sisters as you can, those that you know and those that you don't, smile until your molars are shining and radiating the warmness of Eeman in your beautiful hearts........and the same when brothers are greeting other brothers!! just a reaction and some thoughts :) wasalaam |
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| Abu_Hamza |
| 05/09/02 at 14:15:59 |
| [slm] Anonymous, did you read all the posts in this thread?? [quote]I am a sister and I am very suprised at the responses by other sisters saying that they would not mind a brother smiling or saying salaam to them. I do not believe that this is the practice of the muslims.[/quote] Sister, with all due respect, I disagree. It *is* the practice of Muslims to spread the salam. Please tell us from where you are getting this idea that a brother "saying salaam" to a sister (or vice versa) is "not the practice of the muslims." [quote] If the brother and sister do not know one another then there is no need for any kind of communication between them other than if the sister is in some kind of trouble and the brother, as part of his duty as a muslim, will help her. [/quote] Another tahreem [acclaimed prohibition of something] without any evidence. The aayaat of the Qur'an and the ahadith of the Prophet [saw] indicate otherwise. There is most certainly a "need for communication between [brothers and sisters]" on *many* occasions. This is NOT restricted to simply when a "sister is in some kind of trouble" and needs help. Brothers and sisters need to communicate sometimes for da'wah purposes. Brothers and sisters may sometimes communicate in a business transaction. Brothers and sisters may, at other times, interact in a classroom environment (student/teacher, student/student, teacher/teacher). In other words, they may communicate *whenever* there is a *need* to communicate. The *only* limitation is for them to stay within the bounds of hayaa [modesty/shame]. This does NOT equal silence. And we know MANY incidents from the seerah of the Prophet [saw] where there was communication between the sahaabah and the sahaabiyyaat [may Allah be pleased with them all] and NO incident from the seerah where the Prophet [saw] explicity told his companions NOT to engage in conversations with the non-mahrem unless they were in trouble or needed help! [quote]However, this should not really arise because the sister should be with or will be calling her mahrem. [/quote] This is a VERY unrealistic statement. It cannot be expected that a woman will be with her mahrem *at all times* in her life. And the Divine Law does not expect her to be so either. Indeed, women are allowed to go out of their homes for legitimate needs *without* mahrems, and there are rulings concerning that. They may go to the marketplace (grocery stores, shopping malls, etc.) without their mahrems. They may go and get an education (at a school or a university) without their mahrems tagging along with them in each of their classrooms! There are also instances where a woman may have to travel with a group of women out of town for some purpose. Again, they will not be with a mahrem. So that statement illustrates an assumption that is not always true, and an expectation that is misplaced and unreasonable. And *even* if they are with their mahrem, is it wrong for a man to say salam to them when he sees them? And for them *both* to respond to the salaam? If so, I must ask the obvious question again ... why? [quote]As muslims, particularly sisters, we have to be very careful in our manners and dealings when we are not in the home. [/quote] Agreed. And this is well known in Islam. But this does not mean that men are not to speak with women at all and vice versa, even in times of need and for the sake of da'wah. [quote]There is no reason for smiles or salaams from brothers to sisters and vice versa, and there is no evidence as far as I am aware from the sahabi (ra) that this should be the case. [/quote] Yaa ukhtee, please refer to my earlier post to see some narrations of the Prophet [saw] himself saying salaam to women who were not mahrem to him, as well as a fatwa from Shaykh Munajjid about the permissibility of doing so. Wallaahu a'lam. Wassalamu alaikum wa rahmatullah P.S. Smiling and saying salaam are two completely different things. I personally don't think it's appropriate for us to give each other a smile upon seeing each other. I think it's a bad habit that builds up because of our interaction with non-Muslims and needs to be kept in check. It doesn't fit with the whole lowering of the gaze demeanor that we are supposed to carry with us. But saying salaam ... that's different. |
| 05/09/02 at 14:23:30 |
| Abu_Hamza |
| Re: the Brothers' Code of Conduct thread |
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| Anonymous |
| 05/13/02 at 19:53:25 |
| Assalaamu Alaikum wa rahmatuhu wa barakatu I understand your points but you have failed to convince me that my views were unsubstantiated. It would be very helpful if you could give some examples of the interaction between mena dn women at the time of the prophet (saw) First aof all in my mail I was referring to the discussion of men and women, who are strangers.... saying salaam to one another in public places when they have just passed one another.Therefore your next point can be disregarded since we are not discussing professional relationships where the brother and sister would not be strangers, since this is a completely different scenario. I, in no way said that the womens mahrem should be with her at all times, but if any trouble arises that she cannot deal wth herself....then this is the first port of call..... Agreed???.... Again, I reiterate the situation that we are discussing at the moment....the man and women that are ALONE in public passing one another..should 'salaam' be given???? Is it FARD? is it SUNNAH???...Should smiles be exchanged?...Is this FARD?....Is this SUNNAH??...My point is that it isn't and therefore there is no need for it. In fact what is the need for it? Remember the times we are living in brother. Not all muslims are acting out Islaam and I am particularly worried about any kind of harrassment that can arise from something so innocent. We do not have the safety of the Islaamic state and this is not a muslim country. |
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| jannah |
| 05/13/02 at 19:54:28 |
| [wlm] I think we are talking about two main things. First "what a sister thinks" when a brother says salam to her. Second "Is it Islamically OK for a brother to say salam to a sister". As to the first numerous sisters have testified that they have no problem with it. That they don't think ill of the brother, nor do they think the brother has 'designs on their person.' Some sisters however may have a different opinion and think that the reason a brother says salam to them is different, or they may just be uncomfortable with it, etc. Secondly as for the Islamic aspect I think it's been proved over and over again that saying salam, saying salam to those you know and those you don't know, saying salam to the opposite gender WAS the sunnah of the ras [saw]. [quote] there is no need for it. In fact what is the need for it? [/quote] as for this comment, I think there is a huge need for it. [quote]Remember the times we are living in brother. Not all muslims are acting out Islaam and I am particularly worried about any kind of harrassment that can arise from something so innocent. We do not have the safety of the Islaamic state and this is not a muslim country.[/quote] Umm I feel these are unsubstantiated worries. At least in my community I do not know of any brothers that harass sisters with saying salam. |
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| Abu_Hamza |
| 05/14/02 at 03:42:43 |
| [slm] Sr. Anonymous, I think the question that you are asking was addressed in a previous post by me. Please look back at Reply #37 in this same thread. That would be the 8th post from the top on Page 3 of this thread. Towards the bottom of that post, you will also see a link to an opinion on this matter by Shaykh Salih al-Munajjid. Please check that out insha Allah. Perhaps that would be - at least - some food for thought. And Allah (swt) knows best. Wassalamu alaikum wa rahmatullah |
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| Kathy |
| 05/14/02 at 08:44:52 |
| [slm] Yesterday I was shopping in the grocery store. I was alone and feeling a little bit vulnerable from a stare I had just recieved. All of a sudden, out of no where a Brother (whom I had never seen before) walked by giving me salaams. It meant alot. I realized that I wasn't so alone and it reminded me that Allah swt is always "there." Alhumdullillah. |
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| pathan |
| 05/14/02 at 22:33:32 |
| Assalamu 'alaykum. here is what i think on the salam issue. 1. Actions r by intentions...if you really c that :-) walking down the mall as a SISTER. say salam. and if you have ur intentions messed up, dont. 2. the two ahadith that the brother mentioned a while ago. On both occassions Rasoolullah SAW said salam to GROUP OF SISTERS, not to any individual sister. so if you c sisters in a group, say salam. i'm not sure how hard or easy that would be. :) Ma salam |
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| maariya |
| 05/15/02 at 13:51:20 |
| [slm] Subhanallah what a discussion, hmmmmm, this is an awkward one. I can appreciate anonymous sisters point about the difference of living in a muslim country and living in a non muslim country. I do think that it is more difficult to find practising muslims who can appreciate the blessings of salaam in a non muslim country. I have even come across blanked faces from sisters who I don't know that I have said salaam to ::) However, to give salaam to one another is encouraged in Islaam, to those that you know and those that you do not know, whether this extends to giving salaam to muslims that we do not know of the opposite gender, hmmm.....the truth is I don't know. There just seems to be uncertainty in this area, so I would personally play it safe :-[. But if a bro does say salaam to me, no problem....wa alaikum assalaam wa rahmatullahi wa barakatu 8) Allah knows best [wlm] Maariya |
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| muqaddar |
| 05/15/02 at 14:08:10 |
| [slm] wow theres loads of pathans joining all of a sudden! what tribes are you people? |
| Re: the Brothers' Code of Conduct thread |
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| pathan |
| 05/20/02 at 17:45:44 |
| Assalamu 'alaykum bro... i guess the question is directed towards me as I see myself the only pathan here...any ways.... i would not want to mention my tribe because of security reasons ;)... btw i'm a muslim first then a pathan and I beleive a muslim is beyond tribes and divisions. :) |
| Re: the Brothers' Code of Conduct thread |
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| muqaddar |
| 05/21/02 at 07:52:16 |
| [slm] A Pat han Warrior’s Farewell Beloved, on a parchment white With my heart’s blood to thee I write; My pen a dagger, sharp and clean, Inlaid with golden damascene, Which I have used, and not in vain, To keep my honor free from stain. Now, when our house its mourning wears, Do not thyself give way to tears: Instruct our eldest son that I Was ever anxious thus to die, For when Death comes the brave are free- So in thy dreams remember me. |
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