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Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| Why can't the men just behave! |
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| Ruqayyah |
| 04/23/02 at 16:16:47 |
| [slm] Hi again :) So yesterday, we had a lunchtime lecture by these 2 great sisters mashallah, they did an excellent topic talking about their spiritual journey as muslims. One was a doctor, which always helps to make things more relevant to the medical students attending the lecture, and the other was an american convert to islam. The crowd asked some great questions, one of which was: Why is all the accountability of being modest and covering up put on the women? Why do women have to bear the brunt of this responsibility? Why can't men just behave so that women wouldn't have to cover up? So, naturally I spent that afternoon in class thinking about that question instead of the Pathology lecture, and i wanted to write the guy an email back trying to clarify. What would you say in reponse to his question? This is what i have so far: I was thinking about your question you asked yesterday at the Women & Islam lunch-it was a good one, and I wanted to try and clarify a little more for you in case you felt you still hadn't got an adequate answer. I can see how if someone, for example, saw a muslim couple walking down the street in the summertime-the woman all covered from head to toe and her husband perhaps wearing jeans/shorts and a t-shirt, their natural reaction would be, "why does she have to be all covered up in the heat and he can walk around in regular clothes?". This may lead one to believe that there is no equality between the sexes in Islam, because if there were, then the guy should have to be covered from head to toe too. The problem w/ that argument, however, is that they don't have to be dressed *identically* for them to be equal. Rather, they're dressed to cover their beauty (which goes to show you that women are much more beautiful than men since they have more of them to cover ;)). It's more like yin and yang and men and women having complementary roles in life and in how they dress. You asked why the accountability and the responsibility for modesty in general is put upon the women. If you really think about it, from an Islamic perspective, the accountability/responsibility is put upon men and women proportionately. Men are held accountable for every action and their intention behind that action as well (as are women). In the Quran, God actually speaks to the men first and says "Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them: And Allah is well acquainted with all that they do." Then it tells the same for the believing women. Men by nature are a lot hornier than women, as i'm sure you're well aware since you're a guy :) They think about sex a lot more than women do, and it usually doesn't take much for their mind to go there. So by having the women cover up their beauty and only saving it for their family and husband, they are in fact helping men out by not bombarding them with sexual images and not adding to that "sexual frustration". Even cosmo will tell you that men are very much visual creatures-they get turned on w/ what they see as opposed to women who need that actual physical contact like holding hands. Throughout the history of art, the female figure has always been the subject for paintings, statues, etc. So by having women cover up their beauty except that which must be made apparant (hands and face), it makes things easier for the guy, and one could argue for the girl as well. The girl doesn't have to waste time doing herself up in the morning everyday just to impress the guys and make the girls jealous. Hijab has many functions, and one of them is for the woman's modesty and protection. By being covered you avoid the unwanted sexual attention from guys. *********************************************************** Anything else you think I should add? Does it lose wind towards the end? Any advice would be much appreciated, jazakallah khair!! [wlm] Ruqayyah |
| 04/23/02 at 16:19:32 |
| Ruqayyah |
| Re: Why can't the men just behave! |
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| mujaahid |
| 04/23/02 at 16:19:41 |
| [slm] Nice post, but the topic header, "why can't the men just behave", i dont see the relevance to the post. |
| Re: Why can't the men just behave! |
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| Ruqayyah |
| 04/23/02 at 16:22:02 |
| [slm] haha, you gotta have something catchy to draw the readers in, after all, it brought you there didn't it? :P but seriously, i think that's what the guy who asked the q was saying, i.e. if the men would just control themselves, even in the face of all these sexual images, women wouldn't have to bother to cover (as if that was the only function of hijab). thanks for your input [wlm] Ruqayyah |
| Re: Why can't the men just behave! |
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| M.F. |
| 04/23/02 at 16:30:07 |
| [slm] That's a good answer and will probably give him something to think about for an afternoon and then you might expect some more questions about it :) a couple of comments "as i'm sure you're well aware since you're a guy" take this out. It might not necessarily be true for him and it might be taken the wrong way, esp with the smiley face! :) and say this : "Men by nature are a lot hornier than women" in a more scientific and modest way. |
| Re: Why can't the men just behave! |
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| mujaahid |
| 04/23/02 at 16:34:14 |
| [slm] But if the women covered, or at least dresed modestly, then the men would not have much to look at! Page 3, top shelf mags, bill boards, the skimpy dressed women are everywhere! They are targetted specifically at men. These pictures on billboards of women in thier underwear drooling over a car are specificaly to get the mans attention!! They cannot say: "lets get this women to pose semi-naked and stand provocatively to get the mans attention" Then say this, if the man looks: "oi, why you looking, if you didnt look, we women would not have to do this"!!!! They cannot have it both ways!!! |
| Re: Why can't the men just behave! |
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| Dawn |
| 04/24/02 at 06:18:57 |
| If I am guessing correctly, this is a guy raised in Western culture. Hence, he is going to see a BIG difference between dressing modestly, and totally covering. In some way, shape or form, this discrepency has to be addressed -- what is modest in some cultures is not in others. Dressing modestly in the States would mean things like wearing loose clothes, longer shorts or skirts, no plunge necklines, etc. But there, a woman can be very modestly dressed in, for instance, an A-line mid-calf-length skirt and a coordinating loose fiting short sleeved shirt. However, there are places on this earth where a short sleeved shirt would be considered terribly immodest. It is from cultural differences such as these that this sort of misunderstanding arises. Hence, he is unlikely to buy the argument that covering is for the woman's modesty and protection, when he views it not as modest, but as extreme. He could read your argument and say, OK, then just require women to dress modestly, according to their culture. That will do the trick. It seems to me that there may have also been more behind the original question than modesty. To many, many westerners, the issue of requiring the woman to cover so that the man isn't going to be tempted seems very close to the "blame the victim" mentality that we are just managing, slowly, to extricate ourselves from. It wasn't so long ago that if a woman was raped, it was her fault because "she was wearing a tight skirt", or "she was dressed like she wanted it", etc., often whether it was the truth or not. The common implication was that if she was raped, she must have somehow initiated things. We have finally gotten to realize (and I know it still hasn't sunk in to everyone) that a rape is a rape is a rape. It is a crime regardless of whether the woman is a prostitute, a student, immodestly dressed, modestly dressed, or not dressed at all. It is still a crime of the same magnitude, regardless of who she was or how she was dressed. If it was not consentual, it was rape. Period. Many westerners now see the issue of total covering in the same light -- it is blaming the woman for something she is not responsible for. Clearly, not all see it this way, but I have read and heard enough to know that this view is quite wide spread. Combine this with a different cultural conception of modesty and you have total lack of comprehension. I know I haven't made answering him any easier. I just think that ideas like this are going to have to be addressed for him to not end up waving the whole covering issue off as an undefendable position. Peace, Dawn |
| Re: Why can't the men just behave! |
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| Beth |
| 04/24/02 at 08:20:42 |
| I concur with Dawn. The original poster refers to the hijab as womens contribution to helping men subdue their carnal lusts. Well, I do not wear the hijab and I have yet to be jumped by any horny men, muslim or non-muslim. As Dawn says, rape is not about the way women dress, it is about [i]power[/i] and a woman is just as likely to be raped in hijab as she is in a pelmit. What I dislike about the principle of the hijab, as Dawn says, is that the onus is put on the (potential) victim, invariably the woman, [i]not[/i] to be raped. It always seems to be that way. Instead of just teaching women not to "get themselves raped", not to get themselves murdered etc, etc, why don't we put the onus where it really belongs - on the (potential) aggressor and teach them to keep it in their trousers. It is they who have the problem. If I decide to walk out on the street in a pair of shorts on a hot, sunny day it is not an invitation on my part to be leered at, to be raped, to have abuse shouted at me. |
| Re: Why can't the men just behave! |
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| se7en |
| 04/24/02 at 11:04:53 |
| Both of you brought up some really excellent points that I think even Muslim women grapple with when it comes to the hijab. I don't really have the answers, but just some comments. [quote]It is from cultural differences such as these that this sort of misunderstanding arises. [/quote] One of the qualities of Islam that I truly love is the solid but flexible nature of the sharia' [Islam law]. That though it sets up ground rules and lays down a foundation as to the way a person should live their life, there is still room for a person's culture, custom, time period, and individual preferences to shape how he or she chooses to live. A good example of this is the hijab. Though the requirement is universal for all Muslim women - as stated by the shari'a - the way it is manifested in the everyday lives of Muslim women is as diverse as the Muslim community itself. From Hong Kong to Iran to Sudan to the United States, Muslim women cover but in different ways with different styles. The fact that we ascribe to the same faith does not annihilate our individuality nor make us uniform - but in fact emphasizes the beauty of our diversity and allows us to blossom as very different - but all very beautiful - flowers all in the garden of Islam. (I'm feelin poetic today ;)) What we believe as Muslims, however, is that the foundation I mentioned above is *divinely* prescribed. Meaning that, though cultures may differ when it comes to norms and social mores, the foundation is unshakeable and should not be changed, because He in His infinite wisdom has prescribed these rules. [This is excluding exemptions that stem from extenuating circumstances] Put more simply, yes, different cultures have different understandings of modesty, honesty, religosity, etc but we take the *divine* definition of these things over the cultural. Hope that makes some kinda sense :) [quote]It is still a crime of the same magnitude, regardless of who she was or how she was dressed. If it was not consentual, it was rape. Period. Many westerners now see the issue of total covering in the same light -- it is blaming the woman for something she is not responsible for. [/quote] The first thing I want to point out here is a [url=http://www.orst.edu/groups/msa/quran/quran/17.html#15]verse[/url] in the Qur'an: [color=black]No bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another[/color] This verse indicates to me that you cannot shift blame to another individual when *you* have chosen to commit a sin. God has endowed all of us with intelligence, the ability to discern between right and wrong, and so we each will be held accountable for the actions we choose to commit/omit. When you understand hijab in the way that was described above, it's inevitable that feelings of unease will come about. But I don't think the "purpose" of hijab is to prevent men from acting upon their lower desires. It may curb that, and that may be an added incentive. In a society that places so much value on a woman's physical appearance, I find it liberating to be able to dress in a way that forces people to determine me by my intelligence and words as opposed to physical apperance. That's another incentive. Also, I like being identified as a Muslim. That again is an incentive. But none of these are the *reason* Muslim women wear hijab. We wear the hijab because it has been divinely prescribed. Aiite, just a few thoughts on the issue :) and God knows best. wasalaamu alaykum wa rahmatAllah |
| 04/24/02 at 14:41:01 |
| se7en |
| Re: Why can't the men just behave! |
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| eleanor |
| 04/24/02 at 11:21:42 |
| [slm] I really liked your point about the complementary roles men and women have. I agree that you need to say "hornier" better..maybe saying "men can become sexually aroused by just looking at a woman..." Nelly, I really want to respond to you here (or in the other folder) about hijab, but I need to get my thoughts in order first.. I know exactly how you feel because that is exactly how I felt. I'll check back through the old board, and if I find anything I'll let you know.. :) wasalaam eleanor :-* |
| Re: Why can't the men just behave! |
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| jannah |
| 04/24/02 at 13:25:43 |
| Ok I think there is something we should make clear. Hijab is NOT about men. Hijab is NOT about rape. Hijab is a commandment sent down by God, just like prayer, just like giving charity. Now people may speculate WHY this commandment was sent down, the wisdom behind it, but that's another story. There could be even many wisdoms like 1. Creating a society where women are recognized as people, not as sexual objects. 2. The wearer of hijab has a heightened consciousness or doing right or wrong (you'd think twice before entering a bar) 3. :( that's my 15k limit.. i'll try to continue when our internet is fixed! |
| Re: Why can't the men just behave! |
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| Dawn |
| 04/24/02 at 13:56:44 |
| [quote author=jannah link=board=sis;num=1019593007;start=0#9 date=04/24/02 at 13:25:43]Ok I think there is something we should make clear. Hijab is NOT about men. Hijab is NOT about rape. Hijab is a commandment sent down by God, just like prayer, just like giving charity. [/quote] EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I guess this is why I posted what I did. IF people want to defend hijab using either the modesty or protection arguments, they are going to have to overcome precisely what I hope I brought forward in my previous post. I have yet to see a reasonable justification for hijab using only those arguments, though in the past three and a half months I have read plenty of attempts. Perhaps there is an appropriate response. Perhaps I just haven't read it. Perhaps people should still try to find it. But, at least for now, the only appropriately founded support I can see that one can give is that one believes that it is a commandment from God. End of story. Hence, if I were to respond to the original question, I would first answer by correcting the question. [quote]Now people may speculate WHY this commandment was sent down, the wisdom behind it, but that's another story. [/quote] Then, and only then, would I procede with some of the speculation about some of the wisdom behind it, which might or might not include modesty and protection. I don't mean to sound harsh here, but using ineffective arguments will get one nowhere. And with a topic as controversial as this one often is, especially in western society, re-producing these arguments can be detrimental rather than productive to increasing awareness and understanding among those who have little knowledge of Islam. Peace, Dawn |
| [i[i][/i][i][/i]Re: Why can't the men just behave! |
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| Beth |
| 04/24/02 at 13:59:10 |
| Jannah I suppose your point about the wearing the hijab is a law send down from God is rather lost on me, since I don't accept that the Qu'ran is the (unmediated) word of God any more than I accept the bible is. It was written by men, (the latter, I don't know if this applies [i]entirely[/i] to the former) men who could not help but have an agenda in mind. I wonder whether these books would be altogether different had they been written by women. This of course would have been impossible since women were by and large denied an education in ye old days. But anyway I digress. I think by wearing the hijab women are in fact [i]infantalising[/i]men: they are buying into the whole "oh these poor men and their carnal desires, we must help them restrain themselves by covering ourselves up." Nope siree. They must restrain themselves without my help. I don't expect other people to take me by the hand and alter their appearance or behaviour just so I do the right thing. I dress reasonably modestly by [i]my[/i] standards, though I don't cover my hair, arms, etc. I have desires same as everyone else, don't feel the need to ask men to cover up, to help me keep my desires in check. That is my responsibility and no-one elses. The argument that because women are precious they should cover themselves does not wash with me. We are not made of the same stuff as gold and precious stones - a comparison between the two does not stand up to close scrutiny. There is a saying "do you want to be right or do you want to be happy?" and I can see people trying to apply it here to counter my equality argument. I can see its logic to an extent but I also think there comes a point where you have to draw a line in the sand and say if life is to be at all meaningful then I must be able to wear what I like, even with the fear that certain 'undesirable' types (no pun intended) look at me and start imagining what they'd like to do to me. You should be able to say this is me, as God/Allah/nature made me, arms legs, breasts, and I will dress according to [i]my[/i] dictates and you will have to deal with it. If a man cannot walk down the street without getting turned on by the sight of a woman' s hair/legs/arms etc then [i]he[/i] is the one with the problem and not me. But of course they can control themselves. All this crap about men and how they're more sexually orientated than women. I know plenty of women who could give men a run for their money in those stakes and they don't ambush every unsuspecting male on the street. If men can control themselves around uncovered non-muslim women, they'll do just dandy around uncovered muslim women. The reason everyone thinks they have to bend over backwards to accommodate men's baser instincts is because we've all been exposed to the "men are hornier than women, they have stronger (and implied), uncontrollable urges than women." press for far too long. |
| Re: Why can't the men just behave! |
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| Beth |
| 04/24/02 at 14:04:37 |
| Dawn agree by and large with the points you make, but as you say, if the law was indeed set down by God, then we have to ask [i]why[/i]? It obviously was intended to have a function and if that function was modesy and protection - and as we agreed earlier it won't provide much protection unless a chastity belt comes with it - then I would take issue in the extreme with it. Not to imply this is the norm but the story recently of the schoolgirls who perished in the fire because the police won't let them out without their hijabs (or was it burkas?) - words cannot describe my contempt. |
| Re: Why can't the men just behave! |
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| se7en |
| 04/24/02 at 14:17:28 |
| [quote]It was written by men, (the latter, I don't know if this applies entirely to the former) men who could not help but have an agenda in mind. [/quote] Have you studied at all the science of how the Qur'an was transcribed? It was pretty different from the Bible. I suggest you read up on it, it's pretty interesting :) [quote]I wonder whether these books would be altogether different had they been written by women. This of course would have been impossible since women were by and large denied an education in ye old days. [/quote] To be frank, this is true for the Judeo-Christian tradition and not for Islam. Since it's inception Islam has produced *many* women scholars, in all of the sciences of the tradition. And this began not with a feminist movement but with *the wife* of the Prophet Muhammad Aisha at whose *feet* men sat to learn Islam fourteen hundred years ago. Islam has historically provided both men and women with education not just in worldly sciences but in theology as well. Some interesting sites you might want to check out are the ones [url=http://www.mwlusa.org/welcome.html]here[/url], [url=http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/yahyam/page39/mwomen.htm]here[/url] and [url=http://thisis.myplace.com/4women.swf]here[/url]. peace :) |
| 04/24/02 at 14:23:11 |
| se7en |
| Re: Why can't the men just behave! |
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| Dawn |
| 04/24/02 at 14:27:22 |
| [quote author=Nelly the Elephant link=board=sis;num=1019593007;start=0#12 date=04/24/02 at 14:04:37]Dawn agree by and large with the points you make, but as you say, if the law was indeed set down by God, then we have to ask [i]why[/i]? It obviously was intended to have a function and if that function was modesy and protection - and as we agreed earlier it won't provide much protection unless a chastity belt comes with it - then I would take issue in the extreme with it. [/quote] I agree entirely. I think we need to question why. However, the intent of the original question, as I understood it, was to question some of the reasoning often given for wearing it. I was trying to point out the difficulties of using such reasoning to begin with. Indeed, from what I currently understand, the only appropriate explaination that one can give as to why one wears hijab is that one believes it to be a command of God. Now, this is just my current understanding, and that could change as I learn more. In any case, this remains a separate issue from asking why God might require such a thing, especially for one who is non-Muslim. Now, this is just my humble opinion. :) And I do hope I am making sense here. |
| Re: Why can't the men just behave! |
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| Beth |
| 04/24/02 at 14:33:21 |
| Se7en I'll check 'em out - just as soon as I've finished my seven essays (begins to hyperventilate - brown paper bag! quick!) :( Yes, I was trying not to judge the Qu'ran by the Judao-Christian tradition - didn't know whether the same principles applied. So they don't, that's interesting. But I would still argue that woman scholars would have been writing within a predominately patriarchal society - again! correct me if I'm wrong - so their ideas would inevitably have been conditioned accordingly. |
| Re: Why can't the men just behave! |
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| Maliha |
| 04/24/02 at 15:16:41 |
| [slm] The ideas and words did not come from the scribes. The scribes were simply scribes. The Prophet [saw] received revelations and he recited the verses that were written down. There were/and still are many Hafizs (Memorizers of the Quran) and we *believe* the entire Quran is the unmediated word of Allah. Maliha :-) [wlm] |
| Re: Why can't the men just behave! |
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| inti |
| 04/25/02 at 08:38:13 |
| [slm] I guess, the issue of Hijab from the perspective of Muslims has been beautifully explained by sister Se7en and further clarified by sister Jannah. Now, the issue of why. Well, we dont ask to disobey God but we do think and ponder over the commands of God to grow in our faith. We try to grasp it as we see it and inevitably some misunderstandings occur as none of us is perfect. Just to shed light from another angle. You see, we all get furious when cut by someone sharply in a highway. We feel furious and quite angry. Look we all are p'haps going to work or returning from it. We all are tensed up. So, this is quite provocative. We do get provoked. I do. And you do. But how do we react? On average I would say people curse. Not all but a good number of us. Some say it loudly with a gesture. Some not so explicitly. But those who apply self restraint and say 'Astaghfirullah are the best. Because even under provocation not only do they restrain themselves but are seeking mercy of God to not go astray! Now, think of the one who under such provocation or say a degree more gets after this guy, pulls out his firearm and kills him. This is an act of evil, of a criminal. Period. No amount of provocation would justify something as barbaric as this. Anyone defending or trying to defend this murderer would be blaming the victim. Rightly conduct and modesty is the hallmark of a believer in God. And God is enough to protect such a one from temptation and provocation. Muslim women wear Hijab not because we would all end up committing acts of evil and obscenity but rather so that we can grow in faith and in closeness to God as an individual and as a community. How do we apply this prescription in our day to day life? This is left for us how we build this community of people who are God conscious. A perfect model being the prophet Muhammed [saw] and his companions radhi Allahu anhum. [wlm] inti ;-) |
| Re: Why can't the men just behave! |
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| haadiya |
| 07/16/02 at 02:35:27 |
| Assalamu alaikum ALL Some serious discussion going on. Wow! I want to address the statement about teaching women how not to get rape/murdered first. I am a rape victum. You can only teach/instruct one how to defend themselves, if these action occures. If the victum is powerless the rape or murder will occur. How not too still remains a mystery, until i address what I think need to be done to those who do rape. My book is called ENUCH City. HIJAB: I am going to contact a NUN at one of these catholic churches and get her views on wearing Hijab. Personally, I wished I was coverd with hijab the day i was born. Lets talk about why males can't behave. I say males because I would like to think a REAL MAn would act appropatiately. So I will address those who misbehave, as male in training to be men. Males/men/boys/etc are natural born HUNTERS. If there are any actual HUNTERS online you will understand. As soon as ALL women grasp the HUNTING INSTINCT in the male, the better she will understand the male nature. Females are the PREY. Just like animals in the wilderness we are animals also. Males have (5) senses, right. If a man loses his eyesight, he will still continue to HUNT with the other 4 senses. If he loses his hearing, all the other senses do the job of HUNTING. I have seen males with half a body, no legs, etc, who still do not behave. As a matter of fact they are worse that males who have all theri senses. back to the HUNTING. Males are HUNTERS and they will HUNT till the day they die and they even HUNT for death, because what they hunt for and if they do not know if the prey they are hunting (say HIV/AIDS female) they are hunting for death and the same with other STD's. Variety is no longer the spice of life but has become the spices of DEATH. When the Muslim women is coverd, we become a different PREY. Males sees all the FLESH from the other females exposing themselves and they do not have to use their imagination and this is where the HUNT in them starts. The females who exposes themselves are easy PREYS/Targets. BANG BANGG you are caught/dead says the hunter. Now the male wants advnture, he wants to use his imagination. Males like challenges. They area conquerors. They desire to work up a sweat to capture their prey. No sweat. No gain. Threw that in. When the male I have seen watch me. They have this standoff look. Looking at me behind their wives back. Some even almost get whiplash looking. They are curious. They are HUNTING. They are wondering. they are using their IMAGINATION/MIND/THINKING. Um! This is a prey I haven't seen before. not sure how I can conquer or even capture this type of prey. Not sure what weapon to use to do so. I can't go up to her say YO! Mama, WHAZ UP!, can I get your digits, etc. They are speechless, because they are doing what ALLAH want them to do. THINK. Revieling clothing requires absolutley no thinking on a males part. All he has to do is ask for the digits. He goes on to the next prey. That easy. Muslim women/covered women are a mystery to the HUNT in males. They simply do not know how to respond/act. Talking about getting R E S P E C T. I get it. Anyone rememebr Aretha Franklin son R E S P E C T , what it means to me? This is what Hijab and covering means to me. Repspect for ALLAH and respect for me and respect for the males, old, young, etc. I will not contribute to a little boy, young male, males period evil thoughts when they see me. When they look at me they will meet me eye to eye and not cleagave to eye, etc. A male will walk away from me with much enlightenment, wisdom, knowledge, and understanding. If they do not approach me I know why. They are not ready fro wisdom, knolwedge and understanding. They will know they will to drop to their knees and its praying time. You see, when we cover ourselves we are helping the males be stronger mentally. Males are KINGS, Prince, Priest. We as females have to do what is in our power to do to keep them built up. We must be KINGDOM BUILDERS, in the way we dress, walk, talk, all our actions. ALLAH need males to hear form Him so that Allah can REIN and rule the world. Males can not do that when their focus is on cleavage, splits, other revealing outfits. When we dress loose, we are MANKILLERS. Their focus is not on ALLAH, but other gods (idols) which can be a female among many other things. We cannot control what the males sees outside of our sight. When they (if they be husbands) returns home, we must be ready for them to drop their Armor (problems of the day) and allow him to bare his soul completely and this could mean just lying in our laps or our breast and telling us about the RAT RACE WORLD he had to deal with. This is KINGDOM BUILDING. We must be ready for what he is ready for when he comes home. After all outside of the home door he just came from Hell, so we have to make his home a castle in all our actions. Covered women, men have to think real hard to figure out what we are like beneath the covered garments. This could be brain damage for most. They always have the easy prey (revealing wearers) they can turn to. Vision the world tomorrow. Oh happy day. All the females are covered. The evil men think will decrease because they are visual and turned on by visualization, their vision would not reveal what makes them lust. females are males helpmates. We have to help the brothers. They do not know any better. Don't get offended brothers. This statement came from Minster Farrakhan and another well known male speaker. i am just repeating it. No one should rape no one. No rape is justified. However, as one other Evangelist friend of mine said. If you are not selling, do not advertise. Take the FOR SALE SIGN DOWN (Revealing clothes). I do not know if any of you rememebr VANITY who use to be with Prince. Well she is a friend of mine and if you want to you can go to her website www.denisematthews.com. She came here to Arizona to speak. She wore a long black overcoat over her dress. It coverd everything. When we went to the mall she wore it. She said during her speech. She asked. Do you all want to know why I am dress like this? She said so you can not see anything/flesh. I was so happy to hear her say that and she is a Christian out on California PUREHEARTS MINISTRIES. In her day as she stated she was born to do world in Hollywood. She is now Evangelist Denise matthews for over 9 years. I am so glad that she is introducing this covering in the Christian society. Well I have said a lot. hope you all do not mind. To ALL the brothers in the world. I end by saying. I love ALLAH. ME, and you too much to do you any bodily harm (cause you to think evil thoughts by dressing revealing). My sisters continue to cover and build up Kings, Princes, Priest. Be a KINGDOM BUILDER not a MANKILLER. AA-Haadiya |
| Re: Why can't the men just behave! |
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| jaihoon |
| 07/16/02 at 03:21:49 |
| [quote] A male will walk away from me with much enlightenment, wisdom, knowledge, and understanding. If they do not approach me I know why. They are not ready fro wisdom, knolwedge and understanding. They will know they will to drop to their knees and its praying time. You see, when we cover ourselves we are helping the males be stronger mentally. Males are KINGS, Prince, Priest. We as females have to do what is in our power to do to keep them built up. We must be KINGDOM BUILDERS, in the way we dress, walk, talk, all our actions. ALLAH need males to hear form Him so that Allah can REIN and rule the world. [/quote] whoa! What bindas words are these... jazak Allah khair |
| Re: Why can't the men just behave! |
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| haadiya |
| 07/16/02 at 07:14:59 |
| Mujahid Peace You said that if women covered men would not have much to look at. That is one of the main purpose of covering, if not the purpose of covering. Some one please reference "Averting" the eyes. The FOCUS of man need to be sharp and ready to see and hear the things of ALLAH. Read other books. Visit the Library, books-a-million, go to a museum/aquarine/etc. Just do not do what will cause evil thoughts and your flesh to entice you to sin. Rememebr that SATAN can not use us without our permission/will. Allah can not use us without our permission/will. Protect your PUPILS (eyes). The way this world is going, one could get themselves seriously hurt or worse just for looking at other females, by their jealous mates. AVERt your eyes. There are plenty of other things we can look at besides other males and females. Your gaze should be for your wife and her only. Peace my brother Peace Haadiya |
| Re: Why can't the men just behave! |
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| Kathy |
| 07/16/02 at 10:42:27 |
| [quote author=haadiya link=board=sis;num=1019593007;start=15#20 date=07/16/02 at 07:14:59] Allah can not use us without our permission/will. [/quote] Can you explain this sentence better, what ayat, hadith, fatwa are you basing it on? |
| Re: Why can't the men just behave! |
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| jellyfish |
| 07/16/02 at 20:47:38 |
| Salaam Alikeum haadiya- I'm basically skimming your post as I'm deathly tired right now, I look forward to rereading it tomorrow. But WOW I just had to comment. You are so PASSIONATE & STRONG about what your beliefs! That's SuperNeat! :-* This is a really interesting thread, I'll delve into more deeply tomorrow. |
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