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Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| Why were we rulers once, now slaves? |
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| Anonymous |
| 05/01/02 at 02:41:13 |
| we were the ruelers of the world and now we are the slaves can some one answer me , why? |
| 05/01/02 at 02:41:44 |
| Anonymous |
| Re: Why were we rulers once, now slaves? |
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| jannah |
| 05/01/02 at 04:14:21 |
| [slm] I think we were rulers AND slaves at one time. Subhanallah look at Bilal (ra) and others at the time of the prophet [saw], not to mention the slaves brought here to north america who were some of the best Muslim!! Muslims were also great rulers from the Khulafa ar Rashidoon on. But I know you meant something else. I think if you really examine Islam through history you'll see a pattern, when Islam is in the heart of the people with sincerity it climbs to the heights, when it is forgotten, so are we. It is Islam that brings us our glory. If we can really learn that, then perhaps we can again attain achievements of the past. |
| Re: Why were we rulers once, now slaves? |
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| Kashif |
| 05/01/02 at 06:25:56 |
| assalaamu alaikum I never thought of it like that jannah, but you reminded me of one feature of Islamic history which is this transition from slave to master with the Mameluks. At one point they constituted a 'lower' class of servants in society, but within a few generations they were the rulers of vast tracts of the Muslim Empire, leading the final push against the Crusaders and then defending the lands against the hordes of invading Tartars. But to add a hadith to explain current affairs, we have Ibn Umar who reported that the Prophet sallaallahu alaihi wa sallam said: "When you take part in `eenah transactions*, take hold of the tails of cows, become satisfied with cultivation and abandon jiha, Allah will send humiliation upon you and He will not remove it until you return to your Deen." [Hasan, Abi Dawood] *i.e. a transaction involving interest Kashif Wa Salaam |
| NS |
| Re: Why were we rulers once, now slaves? |
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| muqaddar |
| 05/01/02 at 10:53:30 |
| [slm] we did not care what was happening in the rest of the world 1492 and all that and so the rest of the world left us behind in material matters |
| Re: Why were we rulers once, now slaves? |
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| Abu_Hamza |
| 05/01/02 at 13:05:37 |
| [slm] Surely Allah does not change the state of a people until they change what is in themselves. When we were the slaves of Allah, and Allah alone, Allah (swt) made us rulers of this world. Then we forsook that path of servitude to Him and started worshipping the mataa3 of this dunyaa, and so He (swt) forsook us in return and we ended up becoming slaves of this dunyaa. |
| Re: Why were we rulers once, now slaves? |
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| se7en |
| 05/01/02 at 13:19:39 |
| as salaamu alaykum, Reminds me of something Imam Zaid said at the EZ conference, quoting Umar ibn al Khattab I think:[color=black] Allah gave us honor through Islam; if we seek to attain honor by any other means, Allah will debase us again.[/color] |
| Re: Why were we rulers once, now slaves? |
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| lightningatnite |
| 05/01/02 at 17:59:15 |
| salam, i think one of the mistakes we make as muslims is seeking glory. we should seek the pleasure of Allah alone, even if that means debasement. a humble slave is far better than an arrogant master. a lot of islamic movements today are after glory, authority, power, and these are all attributes of Allah, and He gives them to whom He pleases, if they please Him. we were never rulers of the world. for them is their reward, and for us will be ours. we have to break out of the mentality of conquest. many sahaba cried at the defeat of the kuffar, seeing the utter ruin Allah yields upon those who leave their connection with Him, and knowing that those kuffar could one day be Muslims, fleeing from their own sins. Here's an interesting story: To Each His Own Desserts Allah Almighty has established natural laws, and has bestowed upon us minds with which to understand these laws and their applications. Fire burns, so don't put your hand in fire. Knives cut, so don't put your hand under a knife and trust in God's mercy, no. The same applies to the relationship between rulers and their subjects. "Don't throw yourselves (foolishly) to your destruction," warns the Almighty. There is always a correct way of dealing with the ruling authorities, and the key to understanding the correct approach is the tradition of the Holy Prophet, peace be upon him: "You get the ruler you deserve." Hajjaj bin Yusuf was one of the most famous tyrants of history. "The Tyrant" was his title and a title well earned, as everytime he entered a city he made hills from the heads of the people he killed. Once Hajjaj conquered a city and summoned a group of prominent citizens, asking them, "Am I an oppressor or a just ruler?" Naturally those people were quaking with fear, and humbly addressed him: "Oh our Amir, you are very just. " He shouted angrily: "They are liars, take them out of my sight and behead them!" Then Hajjaj called in another contingent of prominent citizens and asked them the same question, but as they understood what had happened to the previous group they said: "How can you be called just when you kill the very people who declare you to be just? Surely you are a tyrant!" "Liars, all of them! They lie too! Executioner, take them away and behead them too!" And so it continued throughout the day: a group was called, and answered, "You are just" and was killed; then another group who answered, "There has never been a tyrant the likes of you," was killed as well. Gradually all of the prominent citizens of the town were slaughtered, except for a group of religious scholars who Hajjaj was intending to question last. As they were walking towards their dreaded meeting with Hajjaj, an ecstatic madman of God came up to them and asked them where they were going. "Go away", they answered, "We have no time to talk to you now." "Tell me where you're going," he insisted, "to a banquet? I am going with you!" And so he sauntered from side to side of the group, bothering them and pushing himself upon them. Finally, one very old shaykh said to him: "Oh my son, leave us, we are going to a slaughterhouse." "Oh let me come too! After slaughtering there should be a feast with plenty of meat!" "As you like," said the old shaykh. Then the madman took a stick and went out in front of the group of scholars like the leader of a marching band. In this manner they arrived at the court of Hajjaj. Hajjaj was sitting like a frowning statue when the bizarre madman entered with the scholars. Hajjaj was taken aback by the appearance of the madman and a little afraid, as his clothes were weird and his turban was awry. The madman shouted: "Hey, Hajjaj!" The hearts of the scholars fell, and they thought: "My God! No one has ever dared address Hajjaj like this! How did we end up being led here by this madman who is bound to make Hajjaj even angrier. Perhaps he will not just kill us now, but flay us alive!" The madman continued: "I am the commander of this group of scholars. Don't tire yourself by asking them questions one by one, just ask me what you will. If you are pleased with my answers, fine and well, and if you are not, take them off and slaughter them." Then Hajjaj said to the madman: "Alright, I accept. I will ask you my questions and you will answer for them. Am I an oppressor or a just ruler?" "God forbid that you are an oppressor or a just ruler! You are the ruler sent upon us in accordance with our own attributes. You are a punishment, the curse of God, upon these people. We are the real oppressors, not you." Then Hajjaj applauded, saying "All you have said is true. This is the answer I have been waiting for. All day long I have been listening to lies. They called me an oppressor, but no, it is they who are liars, and when the others called me just they were even more shameless. Yes, I am Allah's punishment for their actions. Now I have my answer, you may all go free." Be wise and learn from this tale. If you think that a government is oppressive, look a the people being ruled and you will understand why they are suffering. |
| Re: Why were we rulers once, now slaves? |
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| pearl |
| 05/02/02 at 19:53:56 |
| [quote author=muqaddar link=board=madrasa;num=1020235273;start=0#3 date=05/01/02 at 10:53:30] we did not care what was happening in the rest of the world 1492 and all that and so the rest of the world left us behind in material matters[/quote] [slm] The Ottomans also resisted the printing press, thus slowing the dissemination of knowledge in the Muslim world at a time when all sorts of discoveries and progress were being made by the formerly backwards Europeans. I guess the answer to "what has happened to us" is a combination of erring in our deen and ignoring (or actively preventing) the pursuit of knowledge of deen and dunya. [wlm] Pearl |
| 05/02/02 at 19:57:08 |
| pearl |
| Re: Why were we rulers once, now slaves? |
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| BroHanif |
| 05/05/02 at 18:15:02 |
When we turn to others for help and not turn to Allah for his help and his help alone. When we no longer care about each other and have no love for muslims anywhere else in the world apart from our immediate family and friends. When we build mosques of extreme beauty, but there is no spirit in the mosque since it was built as a show and not to attain the hearts of the people. When muslims themselves begin to sell Alcohol, When muslims are in charge of muslim prostitutes When muslims men say that they are openly inclined to men. When the muslims commit zinah and fornication openly. When the muslims give preference to the Quran of Shaytan (The TV, VCR and Cable) and he Quran of Allah lies in the mosque gathering dust. When the wife takes precedence over the mother. When the muslims are afraid to talk about topics in the mosque fearing that they might say something that will take away their prized assets i.e. the beautiful mosque. And When we no longer wish to see Allah nor do we long to love the ways of the prophet [saw] The book entitled the 'Al-Mahdi' by Dar Al Taqwa Ltd says more about this... Salaams Hanif |
| Re: Why were we rulers once, now slaves? |
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| mwishka |
| 05/05/02 at 22:33:39 |
| (doesn't this thread belong somewhere else?) Surely Allah does not change the state of a people until they change what is in themselves. Allah gave us honor through Islam; if we seek to attain honor by any other means, Allah will debase us again. could anyone could tell me about these two statements, or other thoughts like them, in relation to palestine? i have my own (non-muslim) understanding of what's going on there and why it's going on, but since i'm going to be going there soon, i would really like to know if you, as muslims, are viewing that situation differently than i am. (my view? a mistake was made in establishing one country on top of another one and nothing else will be solved until that mistake is dealt with.) mwishka When the wife takes precedence over the mother. |
| Re: Why were we rulers once, now slaves? |
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| mwishka |
| 05/06/02 at 06:59:28 |
| oops... bro hanif, could you explain this one to me? When the wife takes precedence over the mother. thanks, mwishka |
| Re: Why were we rulers once, now slaves? |
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| muqaddar |
| 05/08/02 at 12:19:52 |
| [quote author=pearl link=board=madrasa;num=1020235273;start=0#7 date=05/02/02 at 19:53:56] [slm] The Ottomans also resisted the printing press, thus slowing the dissemination of knowledge in the Muslim world at a time when all sorts of discoveries and progress were being made by the formerly backwards Europeans. I guess the answer to "what has happened to us" is a combination of erring in our deen and ignoring (or actively preventing) the pursuit of knowledge of deen and dunya. [wlm] Pearl[/quote] [slm] Exactly ! islam had one unique characteristic that no other faith or culture has ever had, knowledge was free and open to all. Once the muslims accepted greek notions of masters pursuing knowledge and slaves working with their hands all was lost. The printing press was banned because the ulema feared that knowledge would no longer be honoured. They forgot that knowledge is useless when it is hoarded amongst the few. They confused science with engineering and both with deeni knowledge which has it's own adab |
| Re: Why were we rulers once, now slaves? |
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| sweetgrass |
| 05/08/02 at 15:38:37 |
| Muqadaar, you said--"They confused science with engineering and both with deeni knowledge which has it's own adab"--you have lost me a little bit here--I don't understand these words--"deeni"or "adab". Although, generally i am thinking that overall, you may have a point, but could you clarify these words for me? Also, I am wondering why anon chose the date 1495 as the time frame as to when things started to go downhill for the muslim nations. I think that I would set the date a little earlier--but I would like to hear anonymous' reasons for choosing this date. My feeling, which may be incorrect, would be that certain rulers embraced an opposition to innovation before this date--and that when the inovation of the printing press came about--the second generation of leadership opposed it, having been raised with the opposition to innovation. Bear with me a moment. My feeling being that leadership in control of a population that does not read has greater control of the mind and opinion of the masses. I think that it was this same desire for control of the opinions of the masses that brought about the opposition of the Catholic church to the printing press, and the first mass publication of the Guttenburg Bible that encouraged the public to read the holy writ for themselves and brought about the reformation, which included a reformation in the public school system,made possible by the publication of the writings of Sir Francis Bacon.This moved the educational system from latin and catholisism, to education in the native languages of europe and secular subjects. This provided the base upon which to build a technolgical society. So I think it was this opposition to innovation which lay at the heart of the decline of the persion empire, and I am curious to know the exact quote that justifies this opposition to innovation. The quote from the Quran--does it use these two words in tandom? Or is it implied? Because, also, when Gaabriel spoke to the Prophet (SAW) he said "Read!" and the Prophet said, "What shall I read?" and Gabriel replied, "Read!" so my point is--he did not say exactly, "Read the Quran, and/or Read the Quran and the Quran alone or Read onlyacceptable liturature by scholarly standards--he just gave the blanket command "Read!" My point being that there were any of several verses to focus on in choosing or not choosing to embrace the possibilities that the printing press offered mankind, so why, instead of choosing the interpretation I offer here,to embrace reading, why did they instead choose opposition to the printing press? So I am so interested in a reply to this--I will be looking forward to your remarks! :-* Patti |
| Re: Why were we rulers once, now slaves? |
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| muqaddar |
| 05/09/02 at 08:53:45 |
| [quote author=sweetgrass link=board=madrasa;num=1020235273;start=0#12 date=05/08/02 at 15:38:37]Muqadaar, you said--"They confused science with engineering and both with deeni knowledge which has it's own adab"--you have lost me a little bit here--I don't understand these words--"deeni"or "adab". Although, generally i am thinking that overall, you may have a point, but could you clarify these words for me? :-* Patti[/quote] deeni means religious knowledge, which has a particular adab or manner of being taught and studied eg the ijaaza science has it's own adab which is basically you make an observation , u come up with a theory, you test the theory on a model scale and then you see if it fits the facts of the theory. engineering is basically concerned with raw materials and their uses with regards to their strengths and weaknesses. muslims first confused science with engineering, they purchased the devices or had them produced and then copied them thinking they had acquired the knowledge eg this is still evident today where the musharaf tyrrany keeps the population uneducated as a deliberate policy (see clash of civilizations for the reasons why) but purchases military products they can engineer but can't design because the science is beyond them. then muslims confused both of these with deeni knowledge they tried to apply scientific + engineering techniques to the deen. eg you had the laws for hudud and a interest based economy (engineering technique) and then constructing their own madhabs etc without understanding who stated a particular thing and why (eg the scientific notion that knowledge is value free) |
| Re: Why were we rulers once, now slaves? |
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| Chris |
| 05/09/02 at 14:46:38 |
| You win if you deseve to. Islam at the moment do not deserve to win. Peace Chris |
| Re: Why were we rulers once, now slaves? |
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| jannah |
| 05/09/02 at 14:53:36 |
| [quote author=Chris link=board=madrasa;num=1020235273;start=0#14 date=05/09/02 at 14:46:38]You win if you deseve to. Islam at the moment do not deserve to win. Peace Chris[/quote] Interesting Chris.. can you elaborate? |
| Re: Why were we rulers once, now slaves? |
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| Chris |
| 05/12/02 at 06:03:18 |
| Simple. Where are the great and godly Muslim leaders? The ones in power don't realy believe in God/Allah any longer, the power has gone to their heads. The ordinary Muslims may still believe, but they are, by and large, still wedded to the idea of Muslims first and don't try to stop the croppt leaders and will defend them against attack. That is why Islam does not deserve to win |
| Re: Why were we rulers once, now slaves? |
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| SisterHania |
| 05/12/02 at 07:26:24 |
| [quote author=Chris link=board=madrasa;num=1020235273;start=15#16 date=05/12/02 at 06:03:18]Simple. Where are the great and godly Muslim leaders? The ones in power don't realy believe in God/Allah any longer, the power has gone to their heads. The ordinary Muslims may still believe, but they are, by and large, still wedded to the idea of Muslims first and don't try to stop the croppt leaders and will defend them against attack. That is why Islam does not deserve to win [/quote] Good points Chris. But I think its better to say the problem is with 'Muslims' and NOT 'Islam'. Another reason Muslims are at a loss is because we are 'disunited'. Also most of the Muslim countries have become so corrupt and do not practice Islam as it should be practiced. >:( |
| Re: Why were we rulers once, now slaves? |
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| Chris |
| 05/12/02 at 09:57:48 |
| Are jot muslims represcentive of Islam? |
| Re: Why were we rulers once, now slaves? |
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| Noor |
| 05/12/02 at 12:47:17 |
| [slm] [quote]Are not muslims represcentive of Islam? [/quote] [color=Red]No[/color], (sadly) they are not, and especially in this day and age. Islam is the religion/faith/way of life/ideology as stated in the Quran and as practiced by prophet Muhammad [saw]. Simple. Muslims are those that have to live by those ideals, but just like any other human being, they sometimes make mistakes, either in thier ignorance of the islamic rulings, or due to weakness in [i]their[/i] faith. If a Christian/hindu/budhist etc lies and cheats, does that mean that lying and cheating are sanctioned by thier respective religions? No, of course not. If an American drinks and drives, does that mean drunk driving is allowed in the States?? So just because muslims have done wrong things, don't put Islam on trial Peace :-* |
| Re: Why were we rulers once, now slaves? |
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| Kareema_Abdul-Khab |
| 05/13/02 at 02:36:36 |
| Where are the great and godly Christian leaders? The Jewish ones? the Buddist or Hindu ones? I don't know of any country in the world who has a leader who is a 'great and godly'example of their religion. There are a whole lot of pretenders, but when you get down to the real religion, few true believers. :'( Even more: the Muslims have some of the least democratic regimes in the world, so the Muslim Public generally doesn't have a great deal of say in whom they want to represent them. :'( |
| Re: Why were we rulers once, now slaves? |
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| se7en |
| 05/13/02 at 15:02:50 |
| as salaamu alaykum, Here's a thread that might be interesting to read: [url=http://www.jannah.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl/YaBB.pl?board=general&action=display&num=6758]How Islam Won, and Lost, the Lead in Science[/url] (wow, I finally understand al zinjibar's comment :P took me a while) |
| 05/13/02 at 15:07:13 |
| se7en |
| Re: Why were we rulers once, now slaves? |
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| Abu_Hamza |
| 05/14/02 at 03:30:38 |
| [slm] ALZINJIBAR!!! What happened to that brother ??? |
| Re: Why were we rulers once, now slaves? |
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| muqaddar |
| 05/14/02 at 07:57:16 |
| [slm] I think we shouldn't get too hung up about the science. Science plus Desire to expand frontiers plus Labour plus perseverance = Success Muslim economy was messed up when muslims accepted credit notes from kuffars instead of solid gold as the prophet had told us to do . This was due to the fact that the muslims believed that with all the gold spain had stolen from the america's their credit was good. But Spains empire ended and the muslims were left with worthless paper. |
| Re: Why were we rulers once, now slaves? |
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| jannah |
| 05/14/02 at 15:07:59 |
| Umm... we are allowed to use paper money as long as it represents something in the real world. Even US dollars theoretically are backed by a certain amount of gold. Checks represent real money that we have. Interestingly enough, the word "check" itself comes originally from the Arabic for it is the MUSLIM traders who began this practice of using checks. |
| Re: Why were we rulers once, now slaves? |
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| ltcorpest2 |
| 05/14/02 at 20:33:19 |
| jannah, we went off the gold standard long time ago, officially it was nixon, but they had printed way too much money to cover that long before him, That is why they put "in God we trust", because they took the real value out. |
| Re: Why were we rulers once, now slaves? |
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| muqaddar |
| 05/15/02 at 13:31:15 |
| [slm] sorry ukhti jannah i should have explained! :-[ muslims were accepting paper money from people living outside the control of the islamic state . There are pretty tight laws on contractual transactions in islam. Paper money being a form of contract On the trading generally with receipts (debt): The trading generally with debts, without being contained to particular cases, is usury and haram Zayd ibn Thabit, one of the Companions of the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, made haram the trading with receipts. He said it is usury. Yahya related to me from Malik that he had heard that receipts were given to people in the time of Marwan ibn al-Hakm for the produce of the market at al-Jar. People bought and sold the receipts among themselves before they took delivery of the goods. Zayd ibn Thabit and one of the Companions of the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, went to Marwan ibn al-Hakam and said, "Marwan! Do you make usury halal?" He said, I seek refuge with Allah! What is that?" He said, "These receipts [sukuukun] which people buy and sell before they take delivery of the goods." Marwan therefore sent guards to follow them and to take them from people's hands and return them to their owners. ("Al-Muwatta", Book of Commercial Transactions, 44) Please 'check out' :) the website by the murabitun group for a lot of info on this matter Itcorpest is right, the Vietnam war caused massive problems for the American economy ( proving a stone age economy war more 'real' than a usury based one... :) ) that was the reason Nixon pulled out.. see Kolko's book on the Vietnam war |
| Re: Why were we rulers once, now slaves? |
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| sweetgrass |
| 05/15/02 at 22:24:53 |
| Wasalaam Alaikum :) Unfortunately, I really can't comment on the economic situation brought up in the last few posts--here in the USA it looks as though we're in a stable economy for the moment anyway. But I really wanted to comment on the two earlier posts which stated "where are your great and godly Buddist leaders, or Christian--or Hindu leaders?" :o [] :-[ Um, well, what was Mother Teresa, but a remarkable example--a living teacher of what's finest in Christianity? The Dahli Llama--an extraordinary speaker on finding balance in life and creating one's own happiness. Sri Sathya Sai Baba who is becoming known internationaly as the "Ocean of love." The late Mahatama Ghandii, whose extraordinary politics of non-violence inspired people world-wide. Nelson Mandela who brought down apartheid in South Africa. The late Martin Luther King Jr. who brought civil rights to public attention. There have been in our lifetimes, many great spiritual leaders, in several faiths, there are still some living leaders, and more yet to come i suppose. I suppose that I am not familiar enough with Islam to identify their great and godly men, but there must be examples in the back of your mind. You know i am For O. bin Laden, but who are the worlds outstanding muslim leaders? Malcomb X? What about that Journalist--A. Shareef? At any rate, if any of these people were any closer to God, we would have God living here among us. I think it's tempting to set the standard for great and godly men so high that no one can ever attain it. Probably it's more attainable than you think, and reached at least once and a while by lot's of people, even ordinary citizens, each day. Isn't each person's fitrah that very aspect that can make that happen, in our own daily life? I also think it's tempting to be hard on other's, particularly if you're hard on yourself. I don't see many poor examples of faith out there. There's a lot of faith out there, if we choose to appreciate the faith we do see. :-* I hate to be too hard on other's, particularly if there's nothing i can actually do for them--i look at it this way, can i save the world? I figure if Jesus, who died of his effort to save all of mankind--that's a superhuman effort to save the world, and if he couldn't do it, how can i? The fact is some people just don't want to be saved, no matter how easy it is, and that's ok, both thir faith and their lifestyle, their soul, and their salvation--well, it's in God's hands, yes? It's not up to me to decide in what way they can best serve their faith. So why DID God create this useless diversity? Oh, I liked that PBS show on muslims. Nice to see the moderate viewpoints in with the fundamentalist. For some people, that will be more approachable. Well that's all i had to say. I'm trying to keep my posts short. :-X Yours, Patti |
| 05/15/02 at 22:29:29 |
| sweetgrass |
| Re: Why were we rulers once, now slaves? |
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| Kareema_Abdul-Khab |
| 05/16/02 at 02:27:58 |
| [slm] I'm sorry if I offended anyoneI should clarify, I was talking about the people in power in the political realm, the people who really run things. I believe these are the leaders that Chris was referring to. These are the people that I don't know of any deeply religious and godly persons. The people you mentioned were people with social power for the most part who bumped heads with the people above trying to change things. There are many Muslims who are working like this, but unforunately we seem to either be oppressed by the state or in a malaise of sorts. I agree with making great faith seem entirely possible, how else can you strive for it if you believe that it's not possible? Let me shut up before I write some other confuzzled sounding statement. |
| Re: Why were we rulers once, now slaves? |
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| muqaddar |
| 05/16/02 at 09:44:49 |
| [slm] I don't think it's a question of capacity, i know that there are some people who do sacrifice themselves for other unfortunately you'll recognise that people who do good social work are never allowed into the political arena precisley because they would then threaten the status quo the political leaders will argue a ) that these people are too idealistic. Thus they seem to argue that politics is some sort of mystery religion and only they being the true cynics are capable of fathoming it's mysteries. i would argue that it is these people with a total absence of ikhlaas in their hearts who give politics a bad name b) or (and this is pretty odd in light of the above!) that if anybody stands on a platform of ikhlaas that they must be perfect! of course if none of this works they are only too happy to have the person killed.. remember how the church heirarchy conspired with certain organisations to try to wipe out liberation theology by murdering the bishops who advocated political change to benefit the wretched of the earth? The qu'ran to these people is a book that they place on the shelf and the life example of Jesus (pbuh) is a wooden cross that they can hide display for ornamentation incidentally sweetgrass 2 of the examples were not good ones...one is a guy who hands out gold necklaces to the rich (!) and the other was a wife beater who believed a little bit of ethnic cleansing could cause peace (btw my great grandfather met him and wasn't impressed by this fake and his bohemion fashion sense) |
| Re: Why were we rulers once, now slaves? |
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| sweetgrass |
| 05/16/02 at 14:28:54 |
| Salaams-- I just want to quote>>unfortunately...the Quran is a book to be put on the shelf and the life example of Jesus (peace be uon him) is a cross to hide (behind? and) display as an ornament<< Very good point--there are thousands of people for whom this is true. And as for the examples i chose, i do not know details of their private lives. True also that our history, that of mankind as a whole is peppered with abuses of power throughout. I'm not trying to be argumentative, and i hope it doesn't seem like that, i am just finding this thread rather interesting, andd i hope you are as well :) What i am thinking though, is that we have some political leaders at present who are in a delicate/volitile? political situation, and some of them are relatively average in their leadership skills--not nessesarily remarkable in that way ( definitly better at it than me!!) :-* But then, the political environment in which they are finding themselves is extraordinary, the demands upon them for diplomacy are huge, and a lot is at stake, and the outcome will affect what, millions of people. That's a huge responsibility, and clearly they felt up to the task or they wouldn't be there, but i think that considering the charisma of our leadership, such as it is, i think they're all doing a pretty good job. The level of dialoge is wonderful. For example, if the muslim leaders entirely embraced fundamentalist Islam, how many individuals would go unrepreseented? And vice-versa. Or if Bush was a fundamentalist Christian, what would be the future of US relationships with the Islamic countries? If the leaders of the western nations put their religions-- Islam, Judiasm, and Christianity before politics, what would be the level of agression between them? Much as we'ld like to see the love and tolerance that they all claim they embrace--in practice we only see that in remarkable individuals in the social sphere. And the polititions like to curb the amount of influence such leaders have--so that we are not pressured into a religious ideology we don't really believe in. No body wants to repeat the inquisition. But still, social values shape politics--hugely--and to the extent that dialoge is clear, honest, tactful ect.--something we're getting to see a lot of these days, to that extent i think we can hope for positive results, and the proof of the pudding is in the outcome. Yes? No? Maybe? I guess i really wouldn't want to see a religiously based government in my own country. I appreciate my religious freedom to worship as i choose. What if our government required us all to be Mormans? j/k Much of the "American experiment" was based upon the idea that people with different creeds can all live and work together co-operatively--so far so good? I think yes! It works for me [slm] Hope that wasn't to long-winded for you :-[ :-* Patti |
| Re: Why were we rulers once, now slaves? |
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| Chris |
| 05/17/02 at 19:19:56 |
| No, it was not longwinded and I agree wholeheartly. C |
| Re: Why were we rulers once, now slaves? |
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| muqaddar |
| 05/21/02 at 06:06:11 |
| [slm] A bit disjointed but pretty clear ! ;D 1) Pragmatism is a good ideology a) Amrika wasn't founded on pragmatism , it was founded on the bones of the native peoples..obviously they didn't have the right to vote..so how long has amrika been a democracy?..never i'd say. b) Amrika does have a fanatical state ideology , it's call Zionism and Tyrrany.It commits genocide everywhere against native peoples and uses Falestine as a specific example 2) Leadership skills a) First of all i question their right to be leaders. Since you espouse democracy as good anough for yourself , then it's a bit hypocritical to suggest others should accept less..or do you believe they ara 'lesser races' b) If you read your copy of 'On Liberty' you'll find that 'only the person qualified to rule should rule' is a maxim that the muslims invented c) their level of responsibility is indeed immense, as is the amount of resources they spend on themselves and the millions they have murdered. If you find any leader who spends this on education or health say in his country he's be i) Deposed ii) Killed iii) Sanctioned need i mention Chavez ? 3) Fundamentalism a) If you don't believe in the fundamentals of islam you are not a muslim and if you are a leader and you don't enforce them you are also not a muslim . Isn't it great to be in amrika where you can be opposed to apartheid AND still continue to practice it ! :) b) Lets put your theory to the test, lets hold a genuine election like in algeria and see how many vote for islam. Since you claim to know how many muslims are represented by islam. c) The pope is a fundamentalist leader of a christian country..no problems with muslims there..Castro is communist fundamentalist ...no problems there.. The khilaafa was a fundamentalist state for 1300 years..it maintained pretty good relations with China...Indonesia...Africa...it's only with Zionism and Christian fundamentalism it had problems. d) Both christian fundamentalism and Amrikan 'manifest destiny' wiped out whole nations...show me how many peoples muslims wiped out in their 1300 years... 4) "Much of the "American experiment" was based upon the idea that people with different creeds can all live and work together co-operatively--so far so good? I think yes! It works for me " Well lets see ..the natives have been virtually wiped out ..so there goes one opposition. The Africans did all the manual work so that left plenty of time to have political debate..now of course they have been drugged and wiped out so the other oppostion is finished too ! Isn't democracy great when your yahood/white or uncle tom! [wlm] |
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