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America's new Christian Zionists

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America's new Christian Zionists
struggling
05/07/02 at 20:52:31
[slm]

America's new Christian Zionists

The Jewish lobby has long been perceived as a powerful influence on US foreign policy but, as BBC Washington correspondent Stephen Sackur reveals, Israel has found new support from American Christians.
Since 11 September support among Americans for Israel has grown massively as many now see the Middle East conflict as the frontline in the US "War on Terror".

Joining well-established Jewish lobby groups in America is a new and powerful phenomenon - Christian Zionism.

There are an estimated 40 million Christian Conservatives in America and they may be in a position to wield unprecedented influence in support of Israel.

Fundraising

At the Cornerstone Church in Texas 5,000 Christian worshippers cheer in support of Israel. "Jerusalem is the eternal capital of the Jewish state. Not since Camp David but since King David," says their leader, Pastor John Hagee.

Many high profile Israeli politicians have addressed this congregation, among them former Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu.

Cornerstone Church is by no means unique in America. Republican activist Gary Bauer says there is growing support for Israel from Christian Conservatives.

New allies

This new movement is forging an alliance with American Jewish organisations. They rely on grass-roots activists, encouraged by boosters like Nachum Segal.

He hosts America's biggest Jewish radio show - JM in the AM - Jewish Moments in the Morning. Mr Segal constantly urges his listeners to work in support of Israel.

The best-known pro-Israel lobby group is AIPAC, the American-Israel Public Affairs Committee. It is rated as one of the top five lobbying groups in Washington.

"AIPAC has a lot of influence on foreign policy," says JJ Goldberg, editor of the Jewish newspaper The Forward. "They work hard to ensure that America endorses pretty much Israel's view of the world and the Middle East."

AIPAC says its main role is providing information and denies that it puts pressure on politicians to support Israel.

By contrast, pro-Palestinian lobbyists say they face an uphill battle to make their voice heard. Khalid Turaani of American Muslims for Jerusalem says the pro-Israel lobby are better funded, better organised and much better established.

Influencing American policy?

Some left of centre activists like MJ Rosenberg of the Israeli Policy Forum are worried about the new alliance between hawkish Jewish groups and Christian conservatives. They fear it may constrain President George W Bush's ability to mediate fairly between the Israelis and the Palestinians.

"It's more than damaging," he says. "It's frightening."

But Congressman Robert Wexler ridicules suggestions that Israel's supporters control American policy in the Middle East. Instead, he says, America supports Israel because they share fundamental values.

"Americans are just solid, rock-solid with the people of Israel," says Congressman Wexler. "It is a democratic nation and a freedom-loving people and a very decent people and they deserve to have a free and secure state."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1969000/1969542.stm
Re: America's new Christian Zionists
Kashif
05/08/02 at 06:35:37
assalaamu alaikum wa rahmatullah

[quote]Instead, he says, America supports Israel because they share fundamental values.  [/quote]

What the Zionists, both Xtian and Jewish, share more than fundamental values, is a fundamental belief: the return of the Messiah.

The Zionist Christians who allow what is occurring in the Middle East, do so out of the belief that gathering the children of Israel will herald the return of Jesus. They aim to fill the Holy Land with Jews, in an attempt to recreate a situation like that when Jesus walked the Earth.

The Jews also await the coming of a Messiah, however, they have exchanged belief in the Messiah son of Mary, with belief in the AntiChrist, who will come and be their King. Of mankind the Jews will be most obedient to him.

What is interesting is that in the Jews very own holy books, it states that God took three promises from the Children of Israel: one of them was that they would not of their own accord migrate to the Holy Land, and for the past 50 years we have seen the opposite.

Kashif
Wa Salaam

NS
Re: America's new Christian Zionists
sofia
05/08/02 at 09:47:17
As-salaamu 'alaikum wa rahmatullah -

An interesting read on this subject:

Forcing God's Hand: Why Millions Pray for a Quick Rapture - book by the late Grace Halsell

Click here for a review:
http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/1299/9912122.html

http://www.middleeastbooks.com/html/books/halsell-f.html

Re: America's new Christian Zionists
Kashif
05/08/02 at 12:45:24
assalaamu alaikum

Has anyone read "The late great planet Earth" by Hal Lindsey?

Kashif
Wa Salaam
NS
Re: America's new Christian Zionists
muqaddar
05/08/02 at 13:36:23
[slm]

 alliances v alliances

  vertical and horizontal alliances

  enemy of my enemy is sometimes my friend

  'nuff said    8)
Re: America's new Christian Zionists
mujaahid
05/08/02 at 13:53:55
[slm]

Are those christians the same weirdo's who go to all those fraud Miracle healing events and make fools of themselves by crying and wailing and them dishing out the dollars to the preahcers?

Let them support Israel as much as they want.

The simple fact is this.

Israel is surrounded by rich and wealthy countries who have populations who hate and despise them. At any given moment, these countries puppet regimes could be overthrown, and real leaders taking over. If they wanted, together Israel's neighbours could crush Israel. The arab militaries are not weak. They are large, well equipped and powerful. Sadly they are run by western puppets.

But the material is thier. They just dont have the will.

But Inhsallah some day that will change.
Republican Leader demands ethnic cleansing
Anonymous
05/08/02 at 17:42:25
Asslamalikum
I dont know if this is the write email address i should forward this article
to, so that it can be distrubeted to memebers of the witness group. But i
subsrcribe to the electronicintifada.com website, and they emailed me an
article in which the Republican Party leader in the USA calls for a total
ethnic cleansing of all Palestinian people. We can not let this message of
what he said go un noticed. Everyone should write to this Republican Party
leader his contact address is in the article link i have below and ask him
to take back what he said and make a full apology.

here is the link :

   http://electronicIntifada.net/actionitems/020502dickarmey.html


Re: America's new Christian Zionists
ltcorpest2
05/08/02 at 19:02:41
wow,  that was some interesting comments,  Muj,  why do you have to offend people?  The percent of people who watch that TV preachers is a miniscule amount.  Hate and despise,  are those muslims? and is that a cultural or a religious attitude?  I was taught to hate sin, but not people.  Not sure if that would be the case with muslims or not, but would like to hear more about that.

Kashif,  I read that book years ago, but I do not think many Christians hold his views,  he would not be a real popular person in Christians circles, or at least the ones i know.

muqaddar,  i think you hit the nail on the head.  I think many Americans look at Israel as one who is fighting the same enemy, so they would be our allies.  I think I have said it on here before,  i never supported any aid to Israsel until Sept. 11th.

I think the wiser question to ask, is how to make allies with Christians?  Maybe muslims or some do not want this, but I would think this would be the most beneficial approach to all.  I cannot speak for all Christians, but I do not know of any that hate muslims.  
Re: America's new Christian Zionists
muqaddar
05/09/02 at 09:35:48
[quote author=ltcorpest2 link=board=ummah;num=1020819151;start=0#7 date=05/08/02 at 19:02:41]

muqaddar,  i think you hit the nail on the head.  I think many Americans look at Israel as one who is fighting the same enemy, so they would be our allies.  I think I have said it on here before,  i never supported any aid to Israsel until Sept. 11th.

I think the wiser question to ask, is how to make allies with Christians?  Maybe muslims or some do not want this, but I would think this would be the most beneficial approach to all.  I cannot speak for all Christians, but I do not know of any that hate muslims.  [/quote]

 hmm the issue did not start with 'israel' the war against islam was started by the christian missionary schools almost completely from america who decided to establish themselves in the middle east and bring down the khilaafa despite the warning of the khaliph of the chaos that would be caused by their actions. this was decades before 'israel' was created.

there are christian groups like 'we hold these truths' as well as jewish groups like the neturei karta who oppose 'israel'. and who muslims regard as sincere

 you state that christians do not hate muslims that is understandable because the muslims did nothing to gain the hatred of the christians all those decades ago... it was the christians who decided to cleanse the middle east of the arabs as a whole and the muslims in particular. once again this was done by american christians.

 i think people in europe having much more experience of the inquisitorial nature of christian evangelical groups are not so willing to swallow their poison whereas in america the white christians did not become the target of the evangelicals so they are much more willing to support their abominations.

i use the word abomination because the word holocaust does not suffice for the greatest act of mass murder , extermination and extinction by one evangelical religion against whole nations was commited by christians.
evangelical christianity exterminated whole nations in the america's and enslaved for 100's of years millions of african and other peoples in a way that was unprecedented in history.

in the name of mass murder this dwarfs the hindoo enslavement of the original people of india (the dravidians who were black and whose king hanuman in final racist tribute was made into a monkey) for thousands of years.

an alliance is only possible with people of sincerity, there are plenty of sincere catholics, orthodox greeks and a few protestant groups but there can be no alliance with any group which believes in 'forcing gods hand' or 'constraining gods hand' because this is absolute blasphemy.

 with regards to the evangelical christians in america allah (swt) may grant them their control of america it will be amusing to see  them turning their claws and hot pokers on the fellow white evangelicals and yahood who fed these snakes. 'on those who have no mercy god has no mercy'
 
 the innocent purchase with their lives what the damned (and their tele evangelists) purchased with their money and lies.

Re: America's new Christian Zionists
ltcorpest2
05/09/02 at 15:34:05
i will follow up a little later,  but I would consider myself to be a Christian Evangelical, but I am not sure if a lot of that made sence muqaddar.  But i do not consider myself to have claws or would turn anyone into a monkey.  But I would consider the fellow evangelicals that I know to be sincere (not that I believe that everyone who goes to my church is a Christian )  It is a different world that I know (and i cannot speak for everyone who claims to be a Christian or of things that have been done in Christ's name).  I can think of scores of people who strive hard to make the world a better place with their time, money and every resource they have.  But you seem to be saying that a whole people group has a certain world view that is evil.  That would be the equivelant of me saying that muslims have a penchant for running planes into buildings and blowing up innocent people.  I think you would take offence if i said that and rightfully so.  
Re: America's new Christian Zionists
muqaddar
05/14/02 at 09:15:53
[quote author=ltcorpest2 link=board=ummah;num=1020819151;start=0#9 date=05/09/02 at 15:34:05]i will follow up a little later,  but I would consider myself to be a Christian Evangelical, but I am not sure if a lot of that made sence muqaddar.  But i do not consider myself to have claws or would turn anyone into a monkey.  But I would consider the fellow evangelicals that I know to be sincere (not that I believe that everyone who goes to my church is a Christian )  It is a different world that I know (and i cannot speak for everyone who claims to be a Christian or of things that have been done in Christ's name).  I can think of scores of people who strive hard to make the world a better place with their time, money and every resource they have.  But you seem to be saying that a whole people group has a certain world view that is evil.  That would be the equivelant of me saying that muslims have a penchant for running planes into buildings and blowing up innocent people.  I think you would take offence if i said that and rightfully so.  [/quote]

 Please explain which bits didn't make sense..perhaps you are not aware of the history of the khilapha and the role of evangelical christians and zionits in it's destruction long before falestine was occupied

perhaps you are not familiar with the evangelical christians role in the extermination of whole nations in the america's? perhaps you should study the history of your christian sect

 you say you know scores of people who try to make the world a better place..well so did Custer.

 i absolutely believe as do the majority of christians (catholics, orthodox christians etc) that evangelical christians are a perverted sect of christianity. I would advise you to consult the views of islamic scholars such as Sheikh hamza yusuf for how they view you and hopefully you should also read 'the intifada of rajab' to see what the bible says about you.

 i don't believe that the people who flew buildings into airplanes were muslims in the first place despite all the rubbish and propaganda thats flown about since

However i KNOW that the people who butchered the wretched of the earth in their hundreds of millions were urged on by evangelical christian doctrine.

 don't try to compare score sheets...  no muslim defends the killing of innocents anywhere whereas evangelical christianity has as it's central doctrines .. ethnic cleansing (including butchering kids as per the old testament see 'we hold these truths' website) genocide and usury
05/14/02 at 09:20:45
muqaddar
Re: America's new Christian Zionists
Dawn
05/14/02 at 18:38:37
[quote author=muqaddar link=board=ummah;num=1020819151;start=0#10 date=05/14/02 at 09:15:53]

 Please explain which bits didn't make sense..perhaps you are not aware of the history of the khilapha and the role of evangelical christians and zionits in it's destruction long before falestine was occupied

perhaps you are not familiar with the evangelical christians role in the extermination of whole nations in the america's? perhaps you should study the history of your christian sect. [/quote]
muqaddar, please be careful.  You are overgeneralizing here.  Yes, there are some evangelicals who are as you have described.  But, there are far more who are not.  And just as you are claiming that the Sept. 11 perpetrators are not really Muslim, there are plenty of Christians, evangelicals included, that think that a person who would participate in something as horrid as ethnic cleansing is NOT Christian, regardless of what that person would claim.  The political spectrum among evangelicals is as broad as the spectrum is among catholics or orthodox, or I would venture, Muslims.  There are "green" evangelicals, pacifist evangelicals, evangelical democrats and independents as well as republicans, zionist supporters, and zionist opposers.  So brother, please, choose your words more carefully.

Peace,
Dawn

Re: America's new Christian Zionists
ltcorpest2
05/14/02 at 19:26:16
HEY, THANKS DAWN, BUT YOU FORGOT LIBERTARIANS, NOT THAT WE HAVE MUCH IMPACT
Re: America's new Christian Zionists
muqaddar
05/15/02 at 13:56:08
[slm]

i would describe an evangelist as

1) anybody who believes they can force gods hand by creating a world war

2) that the jews are gods chosen people by virtue of being born a jew no matter what sins they do whilst everybody else is a has-been

3) they believe that everybody else should be ethnically cleansed from falestine

 is that a good enough description?

 incidentally i don't believe muslims took part in the world trade centre attacks . one day the fbi says it has video where osama admits it and now the head of the fbi says they havn't come across any evidence in afghanistan linking osama or the talib-ilm to the attacks...how does that work ..they now admit it was a forgery

 remember pearl harbour and roosevelts perfidy

  remember lbj's tonkin commie whale's..

 
Re: America's new Christian Zionists
muqaddar
05/15/02 at 14:16:48
[slm]

 theres some excellent articles on 11/9 including some the Fox network censored after US government pressure at
 
http://antiwar.com/israelfiles2.html
Re: America's new Christian Zionists
Dawn
05/15/02 at 17:38:25
muqaddar,

If you are using this as a definition of an evangelical christian, then your definiton is not the common definition of the term.  If you want to see what most people would consider as descriptive of evangelicals, please see [url]http://www.barna.org/cgi-bin/PageCategory.asp?CategoryID=17[/url].  There are also some demographics listed.  You are, of course, entitled to use whatever definition of evangelical you so choose, but if you want people to understand what you are saying, you are going to have to repeat your definition whenever you initiate a discussion concerning such people.  To not do so is misleading and not fair to the people whom most would consider evangelical Christians, as they do not fit your description.

Peace,
Dawn
Re: America's new Christian Zionists
ltcorpest2
05/15/02 at 19:20:35
muq,  ill just let your words speak for themselves.

[color=red]Edited by Moderator[/color]
NS
05/16/02 at 04:40:53
Kashif
Re: America's new Christian Zionists
muqaddar
05/16/02 at 10:17:50
[slm]

 jazakallah Dawn for your efforts

 ukhti it's not a case of a definition given in some book because i'm sure you know that the meaning of words change..thus an evangelical christian 500 years ago is DEFINITELY not the same in terms of ideology as an evangelical christian today..this is because though evangelism might mean trying to convert people in both periods it's political ideology is not the same.

 evangelical christians in the past believed that anybody who was christian would achieve salvation through christ and that the jews were cursed because they had rejected jesus and basically murdered god (and i i seek refuge with allah swt from their errors). They also believed that al-quds belonged to the christians

 wheras the modern evangelicals believe that jews achieve salvation without christ and that al-quds belongs to the jews who are entitled as per the laws of the old tastament to wipe out the inhabitants of the land

 incidentally i knew a evangelical christian for 2 years at university and i've studied the works of most of the islamic scholars on this subject as well as reading books by evangelical christians, christians opposed to zionism as well as authors like dilip hiro

Re: America's new Christian Zionists
ltcorpest2
05/16/02 at 17:32:53
well, a little knowledge is dangerous muq,  in the past and in the present,  evangelicals believed that Jesus Christ died for our sins,  so it wasn't the Jews murdering Christ, but it was our sins he was paying for, so the Jews were not cursed anymore than any of us for rebellion against God.  Al quds would have to be interpreted,  i have know idea what that is.  I do not know of any Christians that believe that Jews achieve salvation without Christ, at least evangelicals.  
Re: America's new Christian Zionists
Dawn
05/18/02 at 10:59:21
muqaddar,

[quote author=muqaddar link=board=ummah;num=1020819151;start=15#17 date=05/16/02 at 10:17:50] [slm]

 jazakallah Dawn for your efforts

 ukhti it's not a case of a definition given in some book because i'm sure you know that the meaning of words change..thus an evangelical christian 500 years ago is DEFINITELY not the same in terms of ideology as an evangelical christian today..this is because though evangelism might mean trying to convert people in both periods it's political ideology is not the same.[/quote]
Actually, though they might like to claim more, evangelicals can only claim about 300 years of existance, not 500 years.  The term, as it is currently used in the English language, first appeared around 1740 or so in England.  For a bit more detail, you can see [url]www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/REevangelical.htm[/url].

[quote] evangelical christians in the past believed that anybody who was christian would achieve salvation through christ and that the jews were cursed because they had rejected jesus and basically murdered god (and i i seek refuge with allah swt from their errors). They also believed that al-quds belonged to the christians

 wheras the modern evangelicals believe that jews achieve salvation without christ and that al-quds belongs to the jews who are entitled as per the laws of the old testament to wipe out the inhabitants of the land[/quote]It is interesting that you should think this, because every evangelical that I know does not think that the jews (nor anyone else for that matter) will achieve salvation outside of belief in Christ.  Now, I will agree that many, probably the vast majority from my experience, do believe that the jews do have a claim on Jerusalem (or Al-Quds).  However, as to an exclusive claim, or any entitlement to wipe out the inhabitants of the land, this is a view held by a small minority.

 [quote]incidentally i knew a evangelical christian for 2 years at university and i've studied the works of most of the islamic scholars on this subject as well as reading books by evangelical christians, christians opposed to zionism as well as authors like dilip hiro[/quote]I think, brother, that your sample size may simply be too small.  If you are basing your opinions on evangelicals on one person you know/knew and some authors you have read, you risk drawing wrong conclusions.  Sometimes, when we have no other recourse, it is proper to take that risk.  We can of course change our position as new evidence comes to light.  However, it would be unwise of us to ignore that new evidence if it fails to support what we previously concluded just because we think our previous conclusion is right.  It could also be that there was some error in the previous conclusion, based upon a poor data sample.  See, I think I can safely say that I have in my lifetime known, both as close friends and acquaintances, over 1000 evangelicals, and only a small minority would fall into your category.  This is because I was raised in an evangelical church and remained within that basic belief system until I was 25 or so.  And my leaving had nothing to do with political ideology.  I even went to a "Christian" College, run by an evangelical denomination, complete with manditory chapel attendance, etc.  And I can assure you that there are far more evangelicals out there who would be opposed to genocide in ANY form by ANY people group, than those who would think that the Jews have exclusive right to Jerusalem and can use whatever means that are at their disposal to achieve that goal.  And not a single one believed that Jews would get to heaven without belief in Christ.  While I was at that college, I became close friends with a couple of Palestinians from Ramallah who were also students there.  That was my introduction to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and for the next six years (i.e., until I no longer considered myself evangelical), myself and several others in our group of friends became ardent Palestinian supporters while remaining staunchly evangelical.  Some of those still remain evangelical, and for all I know, also remain unchanged in their assessment of the conflict.  Moreover, none of our fellow students, none of the faculty, none of the church leadership, etc., considered it improper or wrong.  See, many evangelicals are very social-issues-oriented.  It is just that issues such as abortion or porn, both of which are battled over in the US, are higher up on their political activities lists than anything going on in the Middle East.  Now, don't get me wrong.  There are certainly some evangelicals which also think that the Jews have total rights to Israel, regardless of the means used to obtain it.  You have obviously met some.  And their voices tend to be loud.  There are also evangelicals who think that Islam is from Satan.  (Most just think it to be mistaken.)  In fact, there is a whole university devoted to training missionaries whose goal is to destroy Islam.  (This was reported in one of the more recent [i]Mother Jones[/i] issues.)  But again, while these folks are very loud, they are still a minority.  And it is important to remember this.  

Sorry for the long post, but I didn't know how to say it in fewer words.  You are sincere, and I don't want you to make a sincere, but nonetheless wrong, assessment.  Please, let us remember that stereotyping people by religion can be very dangerous -- especially when that stereotype is based upon some of the worse examples among its adherents.  And this remains true whether we are talking about Evangelical or other branches of Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, or any other religion.

Peace,
Dawn
05/19/02 at 07:49:50
Dawn
Re: America's new Christian Zionists
mwishka
05/18/02 at 15:58:35
ok - finally got in here, too!

dawn, glad you came in on this.

muqaddar, are you just fooling around and being flippant, or do you really not know who evangelical christians are?  hmmm....or maybe this is a british/elsewhere division...  or maybe british vs. american, i don't know.

mujaahid, try not to call people weirdos.   but i agree, i also think there are huge numbers of misled american christians funnelling their excessive wealth (even those who are not wealthy) into some bizarre causes, and not even always understanding what that money might eventually be used for.

muqaddar, same with this "hindoo" thing.  is that some real spelling in arabic, or is it an insult?

ayyyyyy...i've spent so long wasting time off and on over the course of this day to make a few replies that i'm not even going to say anything more here.  (yeah, jannah, i've done that save and paste thing a lot......)

(muqaddar, i have lots of things to take up you with you from all over the board.   ;)   maybe i'll just write 'em all in a list and post it wherever i next get in to reply....)

mwishka

Re: America's new Christian Zionists
muqaddar
05/21/02 at 06:52:27
[slm]

 hmm what you guys are saying is pretty strange because it's opposed to what evangelicals say in their meetings and events celebrating zionism..they even get their kids to cut and paste 'israeli' flags in their sunday schools! See also Sheikh Hamza Yusufs numerous video's on their beliefs. Read the We Hold these Truths website or Dilip Hiro's books

Maybe they are just more open about their beliefs in the UK

Hindoo is how it's pronounced..actually more accurate would be Hin-doo
Re: America's new Christian Zionists
ltcorpest2
05/21/02 at 20:23:04
hmm what you guys are saying is pretty strange because it's opposed to what evangelicals say in their meetings and events celebrating zionism..they even get their kids to cut and paste 'israeli' flags in their sunday schools! See also Sheikh Hamza Yusufs numerous video's on their beliefs. Read the We Hold these Truths website or Dilip Hiro's books

Maybe they are just more open about their beliefs in the UK

It's amazing how you come up with these thoughts.   How often do you go to these meetings?  You told us previously that you knew 1 evengelical Christian.  and you have read many books by muslim scholars.  If I told you I knew all about Islam by reading books by Christian scholars, you would say that I would have a warped sence of what Islam is about.  I have never seen an Israeli Flag at a Christian church, and i have been to quite a few.  I taught Sunday School class for many years and we have never pasted or made or cut out any flag at all.  
Re: America's new Christian Zionists
muqaddar
05/24/02 at 12:31:43
[slm]

one question did you visist the we hold these truths website? because that sure isn't a muslim website and secondly i have read evangelical literature because evangelicals working in various institutions in the uk eg the tax office like to leave it lying around accidentally....

 this describes such wonderful tactics as entering muslim countries illegally and trying to convert muslims by using psychological warfare techniques
you'll note that muslims do openly engage in dialogue with anybody and we do make and sell video's of those dialogues unlike yourselves who adopt muslim clothes eg the hejab (there was an article here by a sister who was actually approached at a evangelical conference a while ago by a such a person) and food and then try to turn the muslims away from such clothes and food!

 have you seen muslims who do dawah by eating pork? have you seen muslims wearing crosses and doing dawah? have you heard of the so called '9 o' clock sevice' the evangelicals ran in the uk which consisted of disco's and women dancing virtually naked on stage to try and get more people interested in chrisrtianity?!

 incidentally i don't care to tell you how i found out about what you acculturalise your kids too because i'm not interested in helping your psych-warfare techniques

 btw Dilip Hiro is a Hnidoo
Re: America's new Christian Zionists
Dawn
05/24/02 at 15:31:57
[quote author=muqaddar link=board=ummah;num=1020819151;start=15#23 date=05/24/02 at 12:31:43] [slm]

one question did you visist the we hold these truths website? because that sure isn't a muslim website and secondly i have read evangelical literature because evangelicals working in various institutions in the uk eg the tax office like to leave it lying around accidentally....[/quote]  Yep, read the website.  And it certainly does show the problems they are having with some among the ranks of the "evangelicals".  I could probably add a few stories to that myself (from my college years).  However, as is natural, they don't also go into detail about the folks from whom they have no problems, which I would guess would cover most others.  Recall, I never said that there weren't any evangelicals that fit the profile you gave.  I just said they were in the minority.

[quote]  this describes such wonderful tactics as entering muslim countries illegally and trying to convert muslims by using psychological warfare techniques
you'll note that muslims do openly engage in dialogue with anybody and we do make and sell video's of those dialogues unlike yourselves who adopt muslim clothes eg the hejab (there was an article here by a sister who was actually approached at a evangelical conference a while ago by a such a person) and food and then try to turn the muslims away from such clothes and food![/quote]  Recall the university I talked about before?  I think they have a bunch of these.  

[quote]  have you seen muslims who do dawah by eating pork? have you seen muslims wearing crosses and doing dawah? [/quote]I should hope not, and if I did, I would stay away!  Such things are forbidden by Islam.  It should be noted here, though, that the wearing of hijab is [i]not[/i] forbidden in Christianity.  Perhaps a more applicable comparison would be if Muslims were to, say, go to church, get involved in, say, the Sunday School classes, and start teaching Islam instead of Christianity.  And even that isn't a good example, but I can't think of a better one right now.  

[quote] have you heard of the so called '9 o' clock sevice' the evangelicals ran in the uk which consisted of disco's and women dancing virtually naked on stage to try and get more people interested in chrisrtianity?! [/quote]
Nope, never heard of this one, and I would venture a guess that most evangelical folks I know of wouldn't approve, if it was really a disco with dancing.  (Many, if not most, evangelicals that I know of frown on social dancing.  I certainly was never allowed to go to dances/out dancing as long as I lived with my parents.)  However, I can easily see how, given the differences between modesty in Islam and modesty in the West, that a great understanding could arise here.  And am I correct in assuming that the target audience of this, shall we say, performance, wasn't Muslim?  See, there is something called "Contemporary Christian Music", most of it coming out of Nashville, TN, and it sounds, at least in beat, similar to standard pop.  The lyrics are, as you might expect, quite different.  However, as Christianity places no judgement on musical instruments, the instruments would be the same.  Now, I am not sure what you meant by "virtually naked on stage", because I can assure you that a bikini clad dancer would also be a big no-no in evangelical circles.  But a woman in a short sleeved dress which fell to the knee would probably be acceptable to most (the hemline couldn't go much higher though and remain acceptable) which of course would be very immodest for a Muslim woman.  So, I could see how a CCM concert could be conceived as a disco performance with scantily clothed dancing women by an Islamic person. For the average Brit, it would probably seem like a standard pop concert, albeit, probably a bit more conservative than what they see on MTV.

See, muqaddar, I think that you are not seeing the "other" side, that is the non-vocal majority, of those who call themselves evangelical, simply because they are non-vocal.  But it is often that way.  We often only see the loud minority, while those in the quiet majority simply go on with their daily lives.  And evangelicals are no exception.  Why should they be?  They are not any more or less human than the rest of us.  

Peace,
Dawn
Re: America's new Christian Zionists
mwishka
05/24/02 at 21:46:06
muqaddar, just out of curiosity, what denomination are these particular christians in the UK that you're referring to?  part of my point was that "evangelical" doesn't mean any sepcific religion - it only meansa type of behavior (spreading the word of one's religion), and is almost always connected to a protestant faith.  i can think of at least five christians i know who are maybe even five different denominations, but who would all consider theirs to be an evangelical religion.  there are a couple of christian faiths which use the name "evangelical" as part of the name of their denomination, and also some very non-denominational evangelical churches,  i'm just trying to figure out what church it is in britain with the truly bizarre behaviors you've mentioned.  you made it all sound muddled up by sort of calling the crusaders (i think is who you meant) evangelical christians, which is sort of confusing since they were not protestants but catholics, and catholicism is not by definition an evangelical religion.

no doubt you have seen some very odd behavior in support of israel among some christians - evangelical or otherwise.  i certainly have, right in my own lab.

you know, ayyyy...man, i'm an atheist, so what am i doing in here having to try to make sure you people are not slandering each other based on misguided notions, botched understandings, raw bigotry, and downright defensiveness when it comes to one's own religion?  it really bums me out.  this is what i keep avoiding getting mixed up in - these messy threads with all this slinging going on....

ok, so i'm tired, had a bad week, and still have to go to my lab, so my patience with all this stuff has worn thin.

a friend (muslim) told me, saying i don't know if you'll find this as funny as i do, the story hamza yusuf told of talking to the chair of religion at harvard, asking how one could reach such a position, and the guy said "well, first you have to be an atheist".  i did find it funny, as i was beginning to learn quite a bit more about the effects true devotion could have on one's character and understanding of the world (in the example of my friend), but right now i'm thinking maybe atheists ARE in fact the only ones who won't fall victim to a prejudice toward their own religion.  and no, muqaddar - in particular - i am not in ANY way saying all religions have passed through the world with equal beneficial effects.  what i am saying is that usually we just don't know what all we just don't know.

hoping to see something let up here,
mwishka

Re: America's new Christian Zionists
muqaddar
05/25/02 at 09:50:24
[slm]

 the 9 o' clock service was officially recognised by the C of E .
 Most people in Britain would have seen the sort of services they held
 eg 2 women dancing wearing hotpants on stage to strobe lights etc
 and it wasn't muslims who were saying it was a disgrace it was some christians...

 the church was happy to along with it until one of it's 'reverends'
 was accused of improper sexual relations with his flock
 it was a big issue a few years ago in the uk

 hmm wolves dressed as sheep....we don't believe in lying about our faith
 or pretending we hold other views than we really do.

  where is this silent majority you talk about? seems most of your silent majority is funding yahoodi butchers in falestine. Words are cheap, so lets hear the names of some of these evangelical sects that oppose the murder of falestinians or oppose ethnic cleansing in falestine...i can give you the name of at least ONE yahoodi sect that opposes the above ....

  hmm...  ;D .. if he was the head of 'religious studies' then he obviously treats 'religion' as an anthropological phenomena and believes that it can be studied empirically..so obviously he has to be an empirical 'rationalist'
Re: America's new Christian Zionists
mwishka
05/25/02 at 11:41:55
muqaddar,

hmmmm....church of england, anglicans - those are some VERY conservative people, from my knowledge of the religion and from my own experience.  but of course, anglicans in america, even british or australians, might be a different breed than the permutations of a faith in its local arena.  what you're describing would be, at best, unacceptable to the anglican church, so i wonder if those people are "pseudo-anglicans", or....what?  anglicans are not evengelicals.  (again, there are all sorts of forms of local evolution of a religion - you as a muslim know that quite well...)

the only other thing i'll say is that there are many ways to express one's views.  i wrote here last night in a weary, worn-out, stressed out, and fairly frustrated state of mind - resulting in a certain style, based on my state of mind at that time.  at some other time i might have written the same thing in a different way.  my point here is that the words we use to say things are what makes what we say either harder on other people or easier on them.  i prefer to go with being as easy on people as possible, and would always think that it's best to never be as hard on the people around me as i would be on myself.  of course, since i'm pretty hard on myself, even when i'm trying not to be, that leaves a LOT of leeway for where i set the level of harshness to other people.  i think it's best to set that level as absolutely low as possible.  take it easy on everyone - try as much as you can to help them in as kind a way as possible.  save harsh treatment for yourself.  

well, that's the way i look at things, anyway.

mwishka  



Re: America's new Christian Zionists
sweetgrass
05/25/02 at 23:39:50
:) HI~ You know, about a year ago I saw something on tv about the brits that I found just too outrageous.  It seems a small group had organized themselves to open a couple of cafe's offering the unusual delicacy of cooked human flesh, which they purchaced from the science/ medical market.  They sort of ground it up into Spam, spread it on crackers---it was just too wierd!  They were protraying themselves as in the forefront of the avant-gaurde--and doing brisk business!  It was right about the same time that the mad-cow disease hit the news, and i was wondering, NOw what hideous new unheard of disease's will come out of this?  There are poeople doing everything under the sun out there--they represent themselves best.  M.--if you knew some evangelicals who didn't make a good representation of Christ-like behavior, now you know two more, + an aitheist and a brethren.  Some people just want to be EXtreme! so they can wear Nikes, ya know? No biggie. Forget about them, we are not those people, and we want to communicate well.  And dialouge is the first step to communicate, so hey, look what we're doing!! ;D  So, how 'bout those Laker's, anyway! ;)  Asalam Alaikum~sweetgrass
Re: America's new Christian Zionists
Kashif
05/26/02 at 10:13:26
assalaamu alaikum

I think painting all (or most) Christians with the same brush is at the least a very uninformed thing to do. And i'm afraid this discussion is starting to sound quite circular.

If it continues on its current path, i'll consider locking the thread.

Kashif
Wa Salam
NS
Re: America's new Christian Zionists
se7en
05/27/02 at 00:44:12

as salaamu alaykum / peace

[url=http://salon.com/politics/feature/2002/05/24/dispensational/index_np.html]this[/url] seems like an interesting article.
Re: America's new Christian Zionists
Dawn
05/27/02 at 06:40:17
[quote author=Kashif link=board=ummah;num=1020819151;start=15#29 date=05/26/02 at 10:13:26]
I think painting all (or most) Christians with the same brush is at the least a very uninformed thing to do. And i'm afraid this discussion is starting to sound quite circular.
[/quote]

I agree, it is quite circular and I am coming to regret my decision to come to the defense of a faith which isn't even my own.  I did so originally because I thought there was some overgeneralizing due to what I thought was a simple misunderstanding, and because it was a faith about which I happen to be quite knowledgeable (I probably know too much -- that's one of the major reasons why I no longer believe it).  I did not intend to offend anyone with my posts, and I am sincerely sorry if that happened. :(  I still believe there is some blanket overgeneralizing going on, but I am not sure that this discussion can contribute to overcoming it.  

Peace,
Dawn  
05/29/02 at 14:16:52
Dawn
Re: America's new Christian Zionists
muqaddar
05/29/02 at 11:11:02
[slm]

1) Evangelism is a European/Roman imperialistic project from Byzantine to the present eg it's wholescale Holocausts in the America's and Australia

2) It's most Virulent form is it's C of E offshoot which started in England in the mid 1800's spread to America and then tried to set up a base using the Missionary schools in the Middle east. These were rejected by Muslims so they hid their nature under the guise of charitable projects.

 For an excellent history of this phenomena see either the book 'A look at the West' or 'The memoirs of Emir Dost Muhammed'

 
Re: America's new Christian Zionists
ltcorpest2
05/29/02 at 13:07:44
The wholesale holocausts of America has nothing to do with Evangelical Christianity,  It has everything to do with state sponsored religion, wherein the state uses God as a tool to win land.  The 1st evangelicals to arrive in the United States were the Puritans and the lived with the native people wherein they were fleeing religious persecution (from state sponsered religion) in England.  The main perpetrators of the wrongs that were done in The Americas were people like Cortez and Custer,  I do not see where they had any influence from Evangelical Christianity.  I agree that much has been done in God's name to to ruin religion.  There is nothing in Jesus' or Paul's or any new testament author's writings that would suggest any attempt to conquer other peoples.  It does teach however to submit to political authorities.  

Dawn,  i dont think your comments were in defence of anything, but you were speaking the truth, and you should never regret that.  


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