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Interesting quote from Desmond Tutu

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Interesting quote from Desmond Tutu
muqaddar
05/09/02 at 10:10:18
"People are scared in this country [the US], to say wrong is wrong because the Jewish lobby is powerful - very powerful. Well, so what? For goodness sake, this is God's world! We live in a moral universe. The apartheid government was very powerful, but today it no longer exists. Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Pinochet, Milosevic, and Idi Amin were all powerful, but in the end they bit the dust.

"Injustice and oppression will never prevail. Those who are powerful have to remember the litmus test that God gives to the powerful: what is your treatment of the poor, the hungry, the voiceless? And on the basis of that, God passes judgment." Desmond Tutu - April 29, 2002 Guardian UK

                         Ameen!
Re: Interesting quote from Desmond Tutu
ltcorpest2
05/09/02 at 13:33:13
People are scared in this country [the US], to say wrong is wrong because the Jewish lobby is powerful - very powerful.

I am sorry, but that is so off the wall,  who is scared?  I hear opposing views every single day on every station i watch.  Scared,  c'mon.
Re: Interesting quote from Desmond Tutu
jannah
05/09/02 at 14:49:12
hmm I don't know if people are "scared", but there is no denying the israeli lobby power:  check this out:

http://www.opensecrets.org/news/pro-israel.pro-arab/index.asp  (this is a great site that details alot of the inside money deals going on)

while they spend MILLIONS, muslim organizations spend only a FEW THOUSAND. this report just really brings it home... ONE israeli organization spent $1 million dollars in the last year alone, while ONE muslim organization spent $14,000!?

now i hope people are sophisticated enough to know that this country is run on special interest money, so how can the US not be biased in it's foreign policy.. it's all there in black and white:


Pro-Israel and
                           Pro-Arab Interests:
                           The Money

                           Pro-Israel interests are a fixture in American
                           politics, having developed an organized
                           presence in Washington and across the country
                           that is backed by generous campaign
                           contributions and intensive lobbying.

                           On the lobbying front, the pro-Israel community
                           is led by the American Israel Public Affairs
                           Committee (AIPAC), which Fortune magazine
                           ranks as one of the top lobbying groups in the
                           country. [color=red]AIPAC spent more than $1.1 million
                           lobbying in 2001, roughly the same amount it
                           spent in 2000. [/color]

                           AIPAC is not registered as a political action
                           committee with the Federal Election
                           Commission and does not make campaign
                           contributions as an organization. But its
                           executive committee and board of directors
                           have been reported to include some major
                           campaign donors, and lawmakers considered
                           by the organized Jewish community to be
                           sympathetic to Israel can certainly expect to
                           reap a harvest of pro-Israel campaign
                           contributions.

[color=red]            Since the 1989-90 election cycle, pro-Israel
                           interests have contributed $41.3 million in
                           individual, PAC, and soft money contributions to
                           federal candidates and party committees. More
                           than two-thirds of that total, or $28.6 million, has
                           gone to Democrats.* [/color]

                           The pro-Arab community is a far less visible
                           player on the political stage than the pro-Israel
                           community, although campaign contributions
                           from pro-Arab and pro-Muslim interests have
                           risen steadily over the past decade. Virtually all
                           of the the [color=green]Arab and Muslim communities'
                           political money has come from a small group of
                           PACs, which have contributed nearly $297,000
                           to federal candidates and parties since the
                           1989-90 election cycle.*[/color]

                           This group is led by the Arab American
                           Leadership PAC, the political arm of the Arab
                           American Institute.  AAI is headed by Dr. James
                           Zogby, who is perhaps the most high-profile
                           figure in the Arab American community.

                           There are just two organizations with a record of
                           lobbying for the Arab and Muslim community --
                           the National Association of Arab Americans
                           and the American Muslim Council. [color=green]Neither
                           group spent more than $14,000 on lobbying in a
                           single year between 1997 and 2001.[/color] (A third
                           group, the American-Arab Anti-Discrimination
                           Committee, registered to lobby in October 2001
                           but has not yet filed a lobbying expenditure
                           report.)

                           *Note: The Center categorizes individual
                           contributions to candidates as being ideological
                           only under strict conditions. For example, a
                           contribution to a candidate will be considered to
                           be pro-Israel only if the contributor gives to a
                           pro-Israel political action committee AND the
                           candidate has received money from a pro-Israel
                           PAC. Thus, the contribution figures attributed to
                           ideological groups, including pro-Israel and
                           pro-Arab interests, may be artificially low.
Re: Interesting quote from Desmond Tutu
Kashif
05/09/02 at 15:11:34
[quote author=ltcorpest2 link=board=ummah;num=1020953418;start=0#1 date=05/09/02 at 13:33:13]People are scared in this country [the US], to say wrong is wrong because the Jewish lobby is powerful - very powerful.

I am sorry, but that is so off the wall,  who is scared?  I hear opposing views every single day on every station i watch.  Scared,  c'mon.[/quote]

I don't think thats what he meant. You hear people's opposing views because in the overall system - the way things are run, their voice is so small as to be unheard. I mean, how important is the voice of a soccer mom, or a school teacher, or a concerned student to the political system?

What is REALLY off the wall is that the Commander-in-Chief of the United States and his men (i.e. the people in congress whose voices do count) call people like Ariel Sharon a "man of peace." The butcher of Lebanon who slaughtered 18,000 ppl in Lebanon, and arranged for his Phalangist allies to commit another slaughter of 2000 refugees in the early 80's is a man of peace. Masha'Allah.

But what more to expect from the leader of the only country to nuke another, whose own country is built on the genocide of one race, and upon the backs of 400 million enslaved of another race? Whose father says that those soldiers who are enforcing the murderous sanctions on Iraq are doing "God's work."

Things seem to be fitting into place here.

Kashif
Wa Salaam
NS
05/09/02 at 15:14:33
Kashif
Re: Interesting quote from Desmond Tutu
ltcorpest2
05/09/02 at 15:15:41
i am not questioning israel's lobbying power,  scared would be like in some other countries, where if you said something publicly, you might get arrested or something worse.  If someone from some other country read the 1st quote, they would get the opinion that people cannot talk freely or we get only one side.  It is not the case at all.  Just seems like people get into hyperbole  (did i spell that right?).  Just wanted to state the facts.  But yes, israel has a huge lobbying machine here, but no , people are not scared to say that right is right.
Re: Interesting quote from Desmond Tutu
jannah
05/09/02 at 15:37:33
Ummm every positive objective event we've tried to present about the issue on Israel (even by non-Muslim third parties) has been SHUT DOWN in this area. Radio station where views were being made public was not given time slots, pre-empted and taken off air. One lecture at a university where a JEW spoke against zionism brought so much rage, the diversity program has been dissolved, a jewish speaker was brought in to speak on israel to counter anything that was said. Another university that had teach ins had the UNIVERSITY email EVERY STUDENT on campus about an israel speaker coming in to speak on the "Middle East Issues". Aforementioned university where a convert student was putting up fliers on zionism was politely THREATENED to stop doing what he was doing or else face the consequences. Letters against Israel are not printed in our local paper for fear of "anti-semitism" accusations. Jenin massacre is written "alleged" for that sole reason. 200 people went from this area to the rally in DC, not a single WORD is printed in the local paper --even nonmuslims are baffled on this one email list I'm on. When my brother wrote to our congressman, the congressman wrote back and accused HIM of being BIASED and wrote about how he LOVED Israel. Now this is only in this area. This is only what happenned to us on the personal level. So I ask you.. should we be scared to speak out?

Now to the national level, websites are being PULLED DOWN (read dar al hikmah clearguidance thread, and naseeha's inminds thread). Time magazine (proisraeli owned) comes out with the issue this week "Jenin massacre never happenned--Saddam is really our target". Amazing... you should hear what some real insiders are saying... that in 8 months the US will bomb Iraq.. the papers have been signed, the soldiers are there, nato has agreed...this from a lecture se7en went to recently.. and what happens this week.. TIME's cover has Saddam on it saying "he's our enemy #1".. subhanallah the wheels are in motion already.
05/09/02 at 15:39:38
jannah
Re: Interesting quote from Desmond Tutu
ltcorpest2
05/09/02 at 19:25:16
it al depends on the forum,  if you are at cal berkeley it is a different situation.  If you listen and call into KPFK you cannot voice an opinion that is pro-Israeli.  If you read the LA Times, it is way pro palestinian.  If you listen to the Michael Medved show it is way pro israel.  But it is like anything else.  If it is pro your side you do not take much notice, but if the opposing side is over represented, it is a crime.  Every people group thinks this way, which is probably a positive thing.  So, no i do not think people are scared to speak out at all.
Re: Interesting quote from Desmond Tutu
muqaddar
05/14/02 at 11:51:06
[quote author=ltcorpest2 link=board=ummah;num=1020953418;start=0#6 date=05/09/02 at 19:25:16]it al depends on the forum,  if you are at cal berkeley it is a different situation.  If you listen and call into KPFK you cannot voice an opinion that is pro-Israeli.  If you read the LA Times, it is way pro palestinian.  If you listen to the Michael Medved show it is way pro israel.  But it is like anything else.  If it is pro your side you do not take much notice, but if the opposing side is over represented, it is a crime.  Every people group thinks this way, which is probably a positive thing.  So, no i do not think people are scared to speak out at all.[/quote]

[slm]

you think putting up a few articles from the palestinian side makes la times pro palestinian? the best lies are always mixed with a little truth

 as to people not being scared to speak out .. i'd advise you to check statistics to see how many terrorist acts were committed by zionists you might even be surprised.. did you know they recently tried to blow up the mexican parliament?

 ever heard of the black power movement in america and what happened to them? check out 'we hold these truths ' which is a christian website for how they were threatened by the american government for their views supporting rights for the native people of palestine

 anybody know whats happened to the site at msanews.mynet.net

 by the way Robert Fisk was threatened by John Malkovich the alleged 'thespian' for his attempt to support human rights in the middle east at a cambridge university dinner. this was basically incitement to murder
Re: Interesting quote from Desmond Tutu
humble_muslim
05/14/02 at 16:39:56
[slm]

Mike,

PLEASE go the website Muqaddar is talking about, http://www.whtt.org.  Read the account of a Christian's stay in Palestine druing the recent Israeli attacks, and cry.
NS
Re: Interesting quote from Desmond Tutu
ltcorpest2
05/14/02 at 19:58:41
Hamayoun,  i will, but it doesn't seem topic related though.  Do you think that if you voice your opinion you are threatened?  I have been anti-aid to israel (anti aid to anyone, at least from government sources)  for most of my life, but i don't feel threatened.



by the way Robert Fisk was threatened by John Malkovich the alleged 'thespian' for his attempt to support human rights in the middle east at a cambridge university dinner. this was basically incitement to murder

huh?  muq,  i have to say, you sure come up with some off the wall comments.  Can you explain this?  who was he inciting to murder?
Re: Interesting quote from Desmond Tutu
Azeem_NYC
05/15/02 at 05:11:56
I work for Mirror International Weekly ( www.readmirror.com), we print Anti-Israeli stuff every week, Usually those articles are written by Nonmuslims... We try to be as objective as possible.. when selecting material to print... but cmon when it comes to this issue only the Israeli govt, and its faithfuls (including vast majority of our congress and senate) see it the other way, or at least say that they do.

The Jews do not just have lobbying power in America, It is a mistake if you think thats the limit of thier power... when it comes to all positions of influence and fields of empowerment (i.e. media) they are running the show.

Lobbying is a big thing though in this country... thats why people like Pipes are bashing CAIR because CAIR is doing what the jews do, and they cant staaand that!

I love IBN (www.ibn.net) finally we have a project focusing in the field of media, that muslims can be proud of (support it if you do!)

But these types of projects have just begun, theres so much work to do. Before they try to shut down our media projects we need to expand exponentially and come out with so many more projects that they cant dare to to shut everyone down.
Re: Interesting quote from Desmond Tutu
haaris
05/15/02 at 06:28:32
[slm]

I agree with brother Kashif that by "scared" Bishop Tutu didn't mean that nothing is ever said but that much of what ought to be said or what people want to say will be left unsaid because of the "flak" that it will generate.

Check out this.

[url]http://argument.independent.co.uk/commentators/story.jsp?story=294787[/url]

Frankly I am stunned that someone like John Malkovich would say something like this.  The point being; he's not the only one.
Re: Interesting quote from Desmond Tutu
humble_muslim
05/15/02 at 10:39:45
[slm]

Mike, the reason it is related to this topic is that it's clear from the articles on that site (which, coming from a Christian, you can assume to be unbiased towards muslims) that the Isreali/American view of Palestine, as presented by ALL the mainstream media in the USA, is utterly wrong.  Only yesteraday Laura Bush made a statement saying she emphatises with Isralei mothers who are fearful for their kids every time they go out, but does not "emphatise with mothers who send out their children to blow themselves up".  I guess the point I'm making is that the truth about Palestine just isn't allowed to be shown as truth, whereas the lies about Palestine are shown to be the truth.

And check out Harris' link to the Fisk/Malkovich story.  Be careful if you are offended by racist cursing, because the article contains some.  Note Fisk's closing statement, very scary for the concept of "free speech", which is so important to the nation to which Malkovich belongs :

"If we want a quiet life, we will just have to toe the line, stop criticising Israel or America. Or just stop writing altogether."
NS
Re: Interesting quote from Desmond Tutu
haaris
05/15/02 at 12:49:01
[slm]

[quote]Be careful if you are offended by racist cursing, because the article contains some[/quote]

Apologies, I should have put up a caveat like that myself.
Re: Interesting quote from Desmond Tutu
muqaddar
05/15/02 at 13:50:13
[slm]

  Mike a while back the rabbi of Neturei karta had acid thrown in his face for speaking out against the atrocities in the middle east commited by the 'israeli' army

none of which was reported in the american media.
in the late 80's zionists were responsible for more terrorist atacks in america than any other group!

 during the apartheid era they handed over the names of anybody in the usa who was actively opposed the south african regime after stealing the
list from the fbi

 zionists in the usa were engaged in stealing usa government research in creating biological weapons to help the apartheid regime wipe out the black population ther .. none of which was reported in the media.. do you know why? do u think newspapers don't benefit from a good story?

 remember mark twains conversation with a newspaper editor as to why they never publishsed the real number of yahoodi's in america
Re: Interesting quote from Desmond Tutu
ltcorpest2
05/15/02 at 19:27:57
muq,  a while back a bunch of muslims crashed planes into buildings, but if you bring it up on a muslim website you treated like crap,  so whats your point?  what'sa yahoodi?  let me guess it is a derogatory term for a jewish person.
Re: Interesting quote from Desmond Tutu
muqaddar
05/16/02 at 10:07:38
[quote author=ltcorpest2 link=board=ummah;num=1020953418;start=15#15 date=05/15/02 at 19:27:57]muq,  a while back a bunch of muslims crashed planes into buildings, but if you bring it up on a muslim website you treated like crap,  so whats your point?  what'sa yahoodi?  let me guess it is a derogatory term for a jewish person.[/quote]

according to you it was a group of muslims..i don't agree with your evidence or your analysis.. and you have brought it up so how am i treating you like 'crap'?

and before you jump to conclusions and start throwing around accusations about peoples motives i suggest you look the word yahoodi up

 the fact is people are being censored by the yahoodi lobby in the us by terrorism , threats and by yahoodi / evagelical christian control of the media ..now i've given you my evidence where is your proof they are not being censored

  see also the book 'washington , babylon' for a whole more load of evidence , the liberals in the usa love poiting out KKK terrorism in the 60's they don't like pointing out continuing terrorism by zionist evangelicals and yahoodi's in america against both yahoodi's and non-yahoodi's
Re: Interesting quote from Desmond Tutu
ltcorpest2
05/16/02 at 19:48:29
and you have brought it up so how am i treating you like 'crap'?

Well let's see.  calling someone and their religion an abomination and and pro extermination of different people groups,  ,  gee if i said that about muslims on here, what kind of response do you think i would get?

the fact is people are being censored by the yahoodi lobby in the us by terrorism , threats and by yahoodi / evagelical christian control of the media ..now i've given you my evidence where is your proof they are not being censored


i already did,  but you said that posting articles in sympathy with the palestinians is truth with lies.  So according to you, if someone does present every side, it doesn't count anyway.


 
Re: Interesting quote from Desmond Tutu
struggling
05/16/02 at 20:01:27
Hi ltcorpest2

what'sa yahoodi?  let me guess it is a derogatory term for a jewish person.

Just to clear this thing, this is what Jews are called in Arabic & Urdu and probably in hebrew as well. It is not a derogatory term.
Re: Interesting quote from Desmond Tutu
sofia
05/18/02 at 14:30:51
It seems obvious that Desmond Tutu's reference of being "scared" of voicing certain concerns has to do with intimidation and pressure in terms of spheres of influence.

The quote is likely aimed mainly at our policy makers.  Take a look at AIPAC $, where it goes, and what those politicians vote for/against.  I'm not saying voicing criticism of Israeli policies is impossible to do, many have. Just that there has been fear to go against the current tide, even to voice the truth, and esp at higher levels of authority.  Just ask Paul Findley what happened to his political career after he criticized/exposed AIPAC and Israel.  
Better yet, ask the Washington Report on Middle East Affairs publishers or Adam Shapiro (Jewish kid from NY who participated in Palestinian relief efforts) about the death threats they receive.  

The average Joe, however, does not face similar threats, and yes, there is greater freedom to express your views in the US, regardless of what it is, than in other places, relatively speaking.  But the concept of sphere of influence has to be understood in regards to Tutu's quote.

Regardless of weak conspiratorial ideologies (ie, "we can't compete with AIPAC and pro-Israeli think tanks"), this issue has more to do with how little Muslims and other minority groups have actually invested in and participate in politics.  

Just my long-winded 2 cents.
Re: Interesting quote from Desmond Tutu
sweetgrass
05/19/02 at 02:22:55
[slm] Hi everyone--

Itcorpest2--Hi--just wanted to let you know I'm really glad you came on board here at the Madinat.  I've been reading your comments here and there on the board, and I sure appreciate your level of calm, and common sense. I agree that ill words speak for themselves.   I know, as we all do that it's not just what a person say's, but how they say it as well, that differentiates between prejustice or plain old usage of the common vernacular.  We had a discussion on this once on one of the old boards--as to whether the word "kuffir" was a derogatory slur, and what sort of results one might get if they really bandied it about.  People had mixed feelings about this. It's really a lot of variables all combined that do make a difference when we talk to others--the context counts.

I agree that the Jewish lobby probably truthfully does spend more on it's lobby campaign.  But you know, throughout the US are scattered individuals--Arab American individuals, who could singlehandedly contribute over a million to a pro-arab lobby without feeling a pinch in their pockets at all. But they don't.  I have no idea why, really.  

I am really unclear as to what I am seeing here--this venomous hatred for all jews and all their friends, all their companies, all of their employees, an extension of that hatred towards Christians who have a messianic beleif system--is this real? I sure hope that it is not what it looks like. I'm confused! I always thought non-muslims were welcome to come here and learn the way of Islam-- :o  what do we want to share with each other? Our spleen? Certainly we all have questions to ask our selves, and some soul seeking to do--at least I do, and I speak for myself--I think it would be neat if we were at least making the utmost effort to demonstrate courtesy to each other while stating our more passionate feelings. Courteous feelings for each other--wouldn't the Prophet have done so? WWM(saw)D?

Last point--I don't mean to be preachy, and i'm sorry if i do.  It's just that I really think it's neat to see that non-muslims have such an interest in Islam and the world around them that they are willing to come here to find out more. I'ld hate to see them get scared off or run out when the muslims here have a really great opportunity for Dawah in this.  Why go to the NJ mall when you can do your dawah right here?

Blah, blah, blah (long sigh ;) ) and furthermore: Now.  When the Persion empire extended it's reach into Spain, it was also extending it's influence eastwards, into India, and at one time ruled nearly half of the Indian subcontinent.  The empire then began to enter a long slow decline, and over many battles and almost 300 years it was gradually pushed back out of that continent.  Many of the persion generals, political leaders, petty rulers and warlords of that era were eunuchs, and for some reason I remember those guys.  Those were savages from hell, and they mascared hundreds of thousands of natives of that continent. So many that in some cases genocide is the only correct  description. Point being, no religion is blameless in history. They forsed conversions, they massacered innocents.    So why point your finger at everyone elses history and say that Islam was never like Christianity or Judaism in it's savegry?  You were too--just as injust in the conquering of territory as everyone else in the world. Just like the rest of us!  :'(

OK. OK. So that's just my share of passionate feeling for the ? for the duration of this evening I guess. And gee, Dawn really gave a good breakdown of ideas relating to evangelical Christianity.  I'm not one myself, and BTW, lot's of people appreciate the libertines! The libertines smuggled protestants out of Europe during the inquisition.  They hid disenters, they adopted orphaned and abused children, and initiated the most gentle child-rearing practices in Europe at the time.  Nothing wrong with the Libertines! :-*

Long, huh? Sorry! Too much interesting going on here! :-/  Patti


Re: Interesting quote from Desmond Tutu
jannah
05/19/02 at 02:44:42
[quote]
I am really unclear as to what I am seeing here--this venomous hatred for all jews and all their friends, all their companies, all of their employees, an extension of that hatred towards Christians who have a messianic beleif system--is this real?[/quote]

I'm not sure where you are getting this from.  No one hates the jews as people. What Muslims hate and are taught to hate is oppression. Whether it be in the form of what Israel and it's governement is doing to Palestinians, what E. Timorese are doing to others, or what some people claim "Muslims" have done in the past.  

The reason for the boycott is not hatred against a people. It is a political strategy to help the Palestinian people by hopefully lessening their economic support.

 
As for "hatred against  messianic christians" again I wonder where you're getting that from. Muslims are taught to respect the people of the book. Jews and Christians because we have the same forefather Abraham. We are also taught to respect all faiths and are taught there is no compulsion in religion. We don't force anyone to anything. Our only job is to live good, clean lives with good deeds and to share with others our way of life. We are not out to convert people. The way a person wants to live their life is up to them --for that is what we believe they will be judged upon.

.P.S. by the way I would like to see the evidence for this "They forsed conversions, they massacered innocents. ".
05/19/02 at 02:46:02
jannah
Re: Interesting quote from Desmond Tutu
se7en
05/19/02 at 05:38:57
[quote] Those were savages from hell, and they mascared hundreds of thousands of natives of that continent. So many that in some cases genocide is the only correct  description.  Point being, no religion is blameless in history. They forsed conversions, they massacered innocents.  So why point your finger at everyone elses history and say that Islam was never like Christianity or Judaism in it's savegry?  You were too--just as injust in the conquering of territory as everyone else in the world. Just like the rest of us! [/quote]

This is a terribly inaccurate portrayal of how Islam spread.  I suggest you either take a class in Islamic history, or read some good quality, well documented books on Islamic history before making such comments. ("Karen Armstrong's Islam: A Short History" is quite good.)  

Historically, Islam is not known to have forced conversions or to have massacred innocent people by the thousands as you have said.  Read about Ottoman history and how the ahlul dhimmi were treated - and how the ruling party at times even *discouraged* conversion.  Read about how Islam spread into south Asia through merchants interactions with the native people, cultural diffusion and cross hybridization.  Read about how Islam spread into Africa, how it did not annihilate or replace its native traditions but simply added to them.  Read about Umar - his garrison towns, the injunctions he gave his soldiers.  This has never been a game of looting and rape while professing glory to God, and history bears witness to this.  

I'm sick and tired of hearing how Islam was "spread by the sword" when history testifies to other than that.  All I'm asking is that you don't buy into hype and learn history for yourself.  Read a book people!  

History also testifies to the fact that there were times when injustice and oppression did occur at the hands of Muslims.  What I seek to emphasize here, and what is substantiated by history if you take the time to read it, is that these were *by far* not the norm, nor were they motivated by religion.  This does not make wrong right, but it makes clear that there is a difference between this and the "savagery" of Christianity - which seeks to convert people in a structured system of prosleytization, and whose history of oppression stems from its religious teachings.

What disturbed me most about your post was this idea you gave - that since Muslims commited wrongdoing in the past, we shouldn't speak against the wrong doing others have committed or are committing now.  I disagree, and Islam does not teach us this.  Islam teaches us that we should stand for justice even if it be against *ourselves*.  So I see nothing wrong with discussing the grievances people have with what Muslims do and have done - as long as they're legitimate and factual grievances.  And I see nothing wrong with economically protesting a government that terrorizes and oppresses people in open defiance of international law.  And I see nothing with standing firm against an ideology that preaches hate, as long as I am not blinded by personal animosity or rage.  

I'm going to be perfectly frank here and say this - I'm a Muslim.  I find Christianity lacking in a lot of areas.  But this does not mean I have the right to go about and make sweeping insinuations about Christian history, or make claims about Christianity that are not substantiated.  I ask of you only the same.  Please show due respect, not because you're on a Muslim message board, but because you as a human soul, and a Christian, should know better.

Peace.

 
05/19/02 at 05:52:28
se7en
Re: Interesting quote from Desmond Tutu
sweetgrass
05/19/02 at 20:08:37
Jannah, Seven--I did not mean to drop any blanket accusation accross the entire board in stating that some of the individuals here are very prejustice.I try  to keep all the names and personalities here straight in my head, and there are those, like yourselves, and the other moderators for whom I would not say that this is true--you have been demonstrating very considerate diplomacy--and I would hope that you would not take my meaning to mean you.  It was not meant as a one size fit's all comment. On the other hand, I don't want to go about singling people out who may be having difficulty with that issue.The people who hate jews probably already know in their own hearts that they do, and those who don't hate them, knw that too.  What I was trying to say is that the emotional current comes accross--and if you don't percieve it then I cannot be of much help here-- There are a lot of people posting here, not all of them are as pleasant as the board moderators.

I will attempt to recall the sourse of my comments on territorial expansionism. IF i find it i can do so in about two weeks--if it takes me longer, it is probably unlocateable.  I read this in college--so it has been a long time ago.

Seven, I am not a Christian.  I have not been for thirty years. I have never stated anywhere online that I am a Christian, to the best of my knowledge.  It is incorrect to say that i am Christian. I try to keep the wellbeing of muslim people upermost in my mind, and loosely adhere to it's tenants. I did not mean to sound scolding.  I only meant to say that my perception is that in general, some very intelligent, soul-searching non-muslims who are trying to the best of their ability to communicate here appear to feel that they are not welcome.  I feel that they should be made welcome, and that it would in good fitrah be an act of dawah to make them welcome. In other words, it would be an act of faith in good-concience to draw them in to the fold, and not drive them away. Several such individual souls have already left the board--i really would hate to see these newcomers go. I cannot myself teach them Islam, but I think you can.

Although I am not a Christian, and I should know better--I really do try to put my best foot forward and will continue to try to be loving when I speak.  I didn't know I wasn't.

I feel some concern for the members of the board sometimes (yes-each and everyone but specific individuals at specific times, I'm sorry, but i can not be any more specific!) because, I worry. While some of your concerns--the need for a better lobby, or sympathy for the Palestinians, are entirely legitamate--some other comments seem very stressed out--for lack of a better term.  I wonder whether the more piqaunt issue which Desmond Tutu's comments address is fear on a more personal level than international  politics--how the political situation touches our lives individually?  If we are feeling anxious, threats, both real and imagined may seem to be everywhere. It's not just a matter of reading an article that's says this is what it means, or this can happen, but how much of what you read do you beleive? How do you decide? I just think anxiety play's a part.  So does ones confort level. Depending on feelings, people read somewhat selectively.  As here on line, when person's select out certain comment's to focus on. This is good, at least an individual  can respond if some misunderstanding has taken place.

I think you misunderstand if you think I don't care.  I care a lot.
[slm]
Patti

NS
Re: Interesting quote from Desmond Tutu
ltcorpest2
05/20/02 at 20:01:36
Itcorpest2--Hi--just wanted to let you know I'm really glad you came on board here at the Madinat.  I've been reading your comments here and there on the board, and I sure appreciate your level of calm, and common sense.

wow,  sweetgrass,  are youy sure you got the right guy?  calm,  never heard that said about me before.  I thought i was sarcastic and blunt,  oh well.

I'm sick and tired of hearing how Islam was "spread by the sword" when history testifies to other than that.  All I'm asking is that you don't buy into hype and learn history for yourself.  Read a book people
 
i just saw on another post that there was a day when muslims were conquering land 200 sq. miles per day by sahaba muslims that were ready to die for Allah.  How was this done?  (not that i am disputing is a peacful religion)

also,  just to set the record straight,  the fear quote is not from Desmond Tutu, but from muqaddar

and se7en,  i think history (which is my favorite subject) is a hugely subjective art.  The israeli and palestinian issue has 2 totally different perspectives and I am sure will be written completely dfferent in the years to come depending on who wins and who's side you are on.  Or sept 11.  I am not sure, but I do not think I have ever seen any muslim on here ever say that muslims (or at least people who claim to be muslims) were involved.  It is a matter of fact from my point of view, but it is obviously not accurate to most of the people on here.


This does not make wrong right, but it makes clear that there is a difference between this and the "savagery" of Christianity - which seeks to convert people in a structured system of proseleytization, and whose history of oppression stems from its religious teachings.

wow,  can you show me anywhere in the new testament where Christianity teaches oppression?.  and it is kind of a leap to say that structured prosleytization = savagery.  isnt that kind of a sweeping insinuation?

hey, have a great day all!!!
Re: Interesting quote from Desmond Tutu
muqaddar
05/21/02 at 06:27:40
[slm]

"  Well let's see.  calling someone and their religion an abomination and and pro extermination of different people groups,  ,  gee if i said that about muslims on here, what kind of response do you think i would get? "

  thats an interesting answer..i didn't call christianity an abomination..i called specifically 'evangelical christianity' an abomination because it believes in 'forcing gods hand' by starting a world war. Do you believe everybody who isn't an evangelical (by which i mean pro zionist) is non christian? hence your answer

 and evangelical christians do accept literally what the old testament says hence their belief in the genocide of the native peoples of falestine.

  Please answer the questions below

1) Do you believe in forcing gods hand

2) Do you believe that non evangelical eg catholics are christians as well

 "Those were savages from hell, and they mascared hundreds of thousands of natives of that continent. So many that in some cases genocide is the only correct  description.  Point being, no religion is blameless in history. They forsed conversions, they massacered innocents.  So why point your finger at everyone elses history and say that Islam was never like Christianity or Judaism in it's savegry?  You were too--just as injust in the conquering of territory as everyone else in the world. Just like the rest of us! "

 Interesting... a person who steals cannot be compared to a murderer unless you believe in draconian legislation!
Since the muslims have never committed the genocide of a people or even a culture thats a pretty strange comment!.
Whereas christians (whenever they have come under the influence of evangelical fanatics) have committed genocide of WHOLE nations forget the cultures....and muslims didn't conquer territory..the native peoples converted and own their own land! remember the old african joke that  goes 'the white man came and said god is with me ..when we said where he is god he said above..and while we were looking he stole our land'..or 'when they came we had the land and they had the bible now we have the bible and they have the land'
Re: Interesting quote from Desmond Tutu
ltcorpest2
05/21/02 at 09:48:31
Please answer the questions below  

1) Do you believe in forcing gods hand

2) Do you believe that non evangelical eg catholics are christians as well

1)   no,  i do not believe in forcing God's hand

2)  yes,  i believe that anyone who proffesses their faith in Christ is a Christian
Re: Interesting quote from Desmond Tutu
muqaddar
05/24/02 at 11:42:04
[quote author=ltcorpest2 link=board=ummah;num=1020953418;start=15#26 date=05/21/02 at 09:48:31]Please answer the questions below  

1) Do you believe in forcing gods hand

2) Do you believe that non evangelical eg catholics are christians as well

1)   no,  i do not believe in forcing God's hand

2)  yes,  i believe that anyone who proffesses their faith in Christ is a Christian[/quote]


   [slm]

    Thanks for answering the first question i'm relieved that you don't believe that it is necessary for the messiah to come and establish Israel..so do you believe that the current entity is legitimate or not? because you know as do i that christ said his kingdom was not of this earth..not until he returns that is

     unfortunately you didn't answer the second, how do you mean has faith in Christ? do you mean if they follow what the Pope says they will go to paradise? you do realise btw that the catholics believe the pope can never be wrong...in which case why don't you call yourself an evangelist?
Re: Interesting quote from Desmond Tutu
Dawn
05/24/02 at 14:53:36
[quote author=muqaddar link=board=ummah;num=1020953418;start=15#27 date=05/24/02 at 11:42:04]
    Thanks for answering the first question i'm relieved that you don't believe that it is necessary for the messiah to come and establish Israel..so do you believe that the current entity is legitimate or not? because you know as do i that christ said his kingdom was not of this earth..not until he returns that is[/quote]  If I might interject a thing here, most evangelicals (thought not all) that I know would claim that it is not possible to force God's hand.  They would say that God will act when and where God wants to, and at best, the only influence we could have would be through prayer, and at that, not influencing God, just ourselves.  I am aware of some who believe that Israel must be established, etc., but they are a minority, and viewed by most others that I know as a bit too radical, literal, and off-the-wall.

[quote]     unfortunately you didn't answer the second, how do you mean has faith in Christ? do you mean if they follow what the Pope says they will go to paradise? you do realise btw that the catholics believe the pope can never be wrong...in which case why don't you call yourself an evangelist?
[/quote] Umm, I think maybe you mistyped here?  Did you mean to ask Mike why he believes he is Evangelical (not an evangelist, there is a difference!) if he also believes that Catholics can go to heaven?  I am afraid I didn't follow this one, and he probably won't either.  But to add another opinion, I will tell you what I was brought up to believe (that is, the beliefs of my parents) concerning the original question, of who is going to heaven -- and that would be anyone who repents of their sins, accepts the sacrifice that God made through Jesus' death and believes it will cover the debt created by those sins, and follows in the path that Jesus set down, as described in the Gospels.  Of course, lots of other beliefs would come along with that "following", such as belief that Jesus and God are the same, the resurrection was physical, Jesus will come again some day to claim his own, etc.  Nonetheless, I was never taught that only a certain type of Christian would make it to heaven, but I was taught that not every person who went to church, or was a member of a church, whether it be Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant, was a Christian in their heart.  That is, I was taught that there were far fewer real Christians, than simply those that were labeled Christian.  However, as we were only human, we could not tell who was who, and God would judge people on that after they die.  Oh yeah, and for those that had never heard of Jesus, or misunderstood what they were told, etc., God would judge them based upon whether or not they would have accepted Jesus had circumstances been different.  Now, I know it sounds a bit convoluted, but that was what I was taught.  And my parents are VERY evangelical..  As a matter of fact, THEY labeled people who blanketly believed that only people of their own denomination or creed would get to heaven as fundamentalist, and believed such people would have to answer to God for their presumptions.

Peace,
Dawn


Re: Interesting quote from Desmond Tutu
ltcorpest2
05/24/02 at 19:32:48
Thanks again, dawn.  I don't think I could have gone into that kind of detail on  Muslim website.  You might get in trouble though for proselityzing on here though.
Re: Interesting quote from Desmond Tutu
muqaddar
05/25/02 at 10:00:26
[slm]

 errm you didn't answer my question

 1) how do evangelicals support 'israel' as a state if only a minority believe it has to be established ..because either 'israel' is either the state that evangelicals believe was promised to the yahood or it isn't
If it isn't why do they support it ....

  2) your second answer dosn't answer the question either...do you believe that everybody who believes that Jesus is god (astaghfirulla) goes to heaven? In which case do catholics go to heaven or not?...how about yahoodi's who don't believe...in which case what is the relevance of the term 'chosen people' what benefits do they gain?

Re: Interesting quote from Desmond Tutu
mwishka
05/25/02 at 23:19:36
muqaddar,

i'm not willing to get into THIS messy discussion thread either, but i think you've mixed up fundamentalist christians with evangelical christians.  and, remember, there are many, many denominations of each, so in using either term you're referring to a wide range of "religions", the term used in the US to differentiate faiths, not to distinguish what you may think when you hear the term "religion".  obviously, having been raised in the US where i wouldn't be surprised to find that there are literally thousands of religions (by the US use of that term), i can see how other places where there are smaller numbers of religions would predispose someone to assume the same is true here.  of course, i may be completely unfamiliar with how christian religions are spread or differentiated other places, so i have been unexposed to the kinds of christians you're referring to.  there are LOTS of fundamentalist christian religions, and these are the people who blindly support zion.

i'm almost believing that if this place is going to welcome christians here, maybe there needs to be a place to discuss christianity, since there seem to be so many misunderstandings about what it is, who's a christian, how the bazillion christian "religions" view each other, and how they view other non-christian religions.  (and no, i'm not going to ask for a place to discuss atheism OR teetering back and forth over the edge of having god in view  ;)  )  but there's so much misinformation flying in all directions, and i'd personally kind of like to get back to the shahada and al-taqwa and stop having to run so much interference here.  (didn't think i'd use a sports term, eh?)

mwishka
Re: Interesting quote from Desmond Tutu
se7en
05/26/02 at 15:21:57
as salaamu alaykum / peace

How did this thread turned into a discussion about evangelical Christianity ???  Perhaps this would be better addressed in the other thread entitled "America's new Christian Zionists".

sweetgrass, I apologize for making as assumption about your faith.  I stand by everything else in my post however :)

ltscorpest:

[quote]i just saw on another post that there was a day when muslims were conquering land 200 sq. miles per day by sahaba muslims that were ready to die for Allah.  How was this done?  (not that i am disputing is a peacful religion) [/quote]

Can you please give me a reference here?

[quote]and it is kind of a leap to say that structured prosleytization = savagery.  isnt that kind of a sweeping insinuation? [/quote]

I used the term 'savagery' in response to a post before mine.  Please refer back to post #20 and #22 to see what I mean.

If you're asking me if structured proselytization leads to oppression, yes, I think so.  I think with even a cursory study of the missionary treatment of the indigenous people of North America, Latin America, Africa etc you will come to the same conclusion.

Here's what happened in Tahiti:
[code]
IN 1767 THE ENGLISH navigator Wallis discovered the island of Tahiti. His visit was rapidly followed by those of the French explorer de Bougainville, and Captain James Cook... All three captains were overwhelmed by their reception at the hands of the people of Tahiti, and by the gifts showered upon them... When Cook left Tahiti... he wrote in his journal: "I directed my course to the West and we took our final leave of these happy islands and the good people on them." Some years later he was to write: "It would have been far better for these poor people never to have known us."
Captain Bligh of the Bounty - that stern judge of men - was if possible more impressed...: "I left these happy islanders with much distress, for the utmost affection, regard and good fellowship was among us during our stay..." A few days later the famous mutiny on the Bounty took place, due to the determination of members of his crew not to return to England but to remain and settle on the islands where they had found so much happiness...

A counter-attack by the religious orthodoxy of the day was inevitable. In 1795 the London Missionary Society was formed, its immediate attention focused upon the Pacific; two years later a convict ship bound for Australia put the first missionaries ashore on Tahiti. They, too, were overwhelmed by the warmth of their welcome...

The Tahitians built their houses, fed them, and provided them with servants galore, but after seven years not a convert had been made. Children called upon to line up and repeat over and over again this simple verse in Tahitian did so obligingly and with good grace,

No te iaha e ridi mei ei Jehove ia oe?
For what is Jehova angry with thee?
No te taata ino wou no to'u hamani ino
Because I am evil and do evil.

But another seven years of such attempted indoctrination produced no results.  There followed a reign of terror. Persistent unbelievers were put to death and a penal code was drawn up by the missionaries and enforced by the mission police... it was declared illegal to adorn oneself with flowers, to sing (other than hymns), ...to surf or to dance... Within a quarter of a century the process by which the native culture of Tahiti had been extinguished was exported to every corner of the Pacific, reducing the islanders to the level of the working class of Victorian England.

...After their mass conversion it was hoped that the Tahitians might be induced to accept the benefits of civilization by putting them to [servile] work growing sugar cane... The enterprise failed, and Mr Orsmond, believing that "a too bountiful nature ... diminishes men's natural desire to work", ordered all the breadfruit trees to be cut down. By this time the population of Tahiti had been reduced by syphilis, tuberculosis, smallpox, and influenza from the 200,000 estimated by Cook to 18,000. After thirty years of missionary rule, only 6,000 remained.

Their power base firmly established in Tahiti, the missionaries moved swiftly to the outer islands... The methods employed were the same as before. A local chieftain would be baptized, crowned king, presented with a portrait of Queen Victoria, introduced to the bottle, and left to the work of conversion...A moral code of such strictness was then enforced that a man walking with his arm round a woman at night was compelled to carry a lantern in his free hand. On the island of Raiatea a man who forecast the weather... was treated as a witchdoctor and put to death.

By 1850 the conquest of the Pacific was complete...Once the lives of the Polynesian and Melanesian people had been intertwined with the processes of creation. They seemed under compulsion to decorate everything [such as] the enormously tall prows of their canoes into which they carved such intricate designs...The desire to produce beautiful things has gone...Island dances, reduced to grass-skirts and swaying hips, are for tourist consumption, and the islanders' songs seem lugubrious as if they have never freed themselves of the influence of the gloomy hymn-chanting...
[/code]
05/26/02 at 15:28:37
se7en
Re: Interesting quote from Desmond Tutu
Dawn
05/27/02 at 11:40:09
[quote author=ltcorpest2 link=board=ummah;num=1020953418;start=15#29 date=05/24/02 at 19:32:48]...  You might get in trouble though for proselityzing on here though.[/quote] Hmmm, it's kind of hard to proselytize when you don't believe it yourself.  Or so I would think, anyway.  And like se7en, I don't think proselityzing is a good thing, anyway.
05/27/02 at 11:42:09
Dawn
Re: Interesting quote from Desmond Tutu
muqaddar
05/29/02 at 10:36:33
[slm]

 Dawn theres  2 interesting books i'd recommend

 1) Exterminate the Brutes
 
 2) A look at the West

 you might also try reading Heart of Darkness

Perhaps you'd also like to explore how native children around the world were stopped from talking their native languages and forced to speak english (did jesus speak english?) and wear garments from victorian england (did jesus wear a top hat?!)

I think that establishes pretty much that christianity is a tool of european colonialism whether then or in afghanistan
05/29/02 at 10:40:48
muqaddar


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