A R C H I V E S
Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| will Gandhi go to hell? |
|---|
| Faiz |
| 05/17/02 at 19:12:43 |
| no person is completely good or bad. everyone has shades of gray. but there have been so many non-muslim personalities throughout the ages who have done great service to humankind. these include political leaders (Gandhi et al) as well as people of science & medicine (Louis Pasteur, Madam Curie et al). now these people did not believe in One God. they rejected Islam. will these people go to hell? what do you guys think? of course, Allah is the most merciful, but isn't it also true that He will not forgive 'shirk'? |
| Re: will Gandhi go to hell? |
|---|
| se7en |
| 05/18/02 at 02:36:03 |
| as salaamu alaykum wa rahmatAllah, welcome to the board bro :) You might want to check out this post: [url=http://www.jannah.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl/YaBB.pl?board=ark&action=display&num=751]Do non-Muslims go to hell?[/url] |
| 05/18/02 at 02:38:46 |
| se7en |
| Re: will Gandhi go to hell? |
|---|
| Chris |
| 05/18/02 at 17:22:16 |
| Odd point, it looks like I'll be burning. I may as well be as nasty as I can, I'm going to burn anyway. Sarcasam aside, that is what your post is telling people. Chris |
| Re: will Gandhi go to hell? |
|---|
| jannah |
| 05/18/02 at 21:53:04 |
| Chris, I think you should avoid condemning yourself to Hell ;) as no one else is. God is most-Merciful, most-Just. Each person will be judged on their own individual basis by God, not humans. We don't have any right to condemn you to Hell, nor do you. We don't know where we will end up. Each of us just needs to do our best and struggle to find the truth and the way of life that is right for us. |
| Re: will Gandhi go to hell? |
|---|
| Faiz |
| 05/20/02 at 15:15:06 |
| Jazakallah Khair sisters Seven and Jannah!! as you must have figured, i am new to this city and am struggling to understand Islam. so please bear with my questions :) and Chris, i wasn't suggesting *anything*!! i pray that Allah SWT bring you, me and all of us to seerat-ul-mustakeem - The straight path. Ameen. [slm] |
| Re: will Gandhi go to hell? |
|---|
| ltcorpest2 |
| 05/20/02 at 20:15:49 |
| Posted by: Chris Posted on: May 18th, 2002, 5:22pm Odd point, it looks like I'll be burning. I may as well be as nasty as I can, I'm going to burn anyway. Sarcasam aside, that is what your post is telling people. Chris Chris, one thing about religion, at least Jewish, Islam and Christianity, is that it deal with absolutes, because they believe that there is an absolute God and that he has given mankind a great gift (eternal life with him). God does not condemn anyone to hell. It is our disobedience and rebellion that seperates us from God. I would think that would be common with Islam and Christianity? |
| Re: will Gandhi go to hell? |
|---|
| UmmWafi |
| 05/20/02 at 22:59:48 |
| [slm] I am not able right now to quote the exact verse and surah (can someone help?) but there is an ayah in the Quran that says to the effect that if there is someone who believes in the Supremeness of God and does good according to the laws of God, then whether he is Muslim or not, let Allah be the judge and mete out the rewards. Wallahualam bissawab. Wassalam. |
| Re: will Gandhi go to hell? |
|---|
| WhatDFish |
| 05/21/02 at 10:41:06 |
| [slm] uh? is there? Allah alone is the judge but there are conditions that 1. u believe 2. do good deeds(inclusive of salaah and everything). ya'ni - illalladhi na aamanu wa`amiluSwaliHaat. and if someone who believes and acts according to the laws of God, would that not make him a Muslim?? questions like will mother theresa go to heaven, will princess diana go to heaven are silly and they reflect a lack of understanding of Islaam. we dont know if they ever professed La ilaha illallah, and if they didnt then hell is their abode for eternity. Allahu`alam |
| Re: will Gandhi go to hell? |
|---|
| Chris |
| 05/21/02 at 11:29:19 |
| :oI think your responce shows a lack of understanding of God. He's vast, beyond human comprehension, why should there not be many 'stright paths' to Him? There are people in this world who have never heard of Islam, I never knew any Muslims I could count as friends until I was nineteen, what happens to those who never hear of it at all? But if I walk out into the wild alone - theres a wonderful place in Edinburgh for this - and just reach out and feel, I can feel God all round me. Can all of Islam match up to that? You're right. The question is literaly unanswerable, until we die (at which point we can't impart the answer to those on earth :D) we can just do the best we can and try and find out own paths. Chris |
| Re: will Gandhi go to hell? |
|---|
| Maliha |
| 05/21/02 at 12:04:22 |
| [quote author=Chris link=board=madrasa;num=1021677163;start=0#8 date=05/21/02 at 11:29:19] :oI think your responce shows a lack of understanding of God. He's vast, beyond human comprehension, why should there not be many 'stright paths' to Him? There are people in this world who have never heard of Islam, I never knew any Muslims I could count as friends until I was nineteen, what happens to those who never hear of it at all? [/quote] For people who have never heard of Islam then Allah is the ultimate judge of them. We are each accorded to our own innermost intention and deeds and that only Allah can determine. No human being can cast *anyone* into heaven or hell....Allah is the ultimate judge. For those who have heard of Islam and still rejected it's a different story... [quote]But if I walk out into the wild alone - theres a wonderful place in Edinburgh for this - and just reach out and feel, I can feel God all round me. Can all of Islam match up to that? [/quote] I don't understand this statement. "Can all of Islam match up to that?" In Islam we are encouraged to reflect upon nature, to be in touch with creation...to reflect on the Glory of Allah through His innumerable miracles and they extend throughout this vast earth...So really, I could go to Edinburgh stay in the wild and pray, and connect, and prostrate to the Divine without conflicting with Islam at all. [quote] You're right. The question is literaly unanswerable, until we die (at which point we can't impart the answer to those on earth :D) we can just do the best we can and try and find out own paths. [/quote] To try and create our own paths in this spiritual wilderness of the postmodern era is impossible. That is why we have Divine Law to *Guide* human beings in matters that are beyond our comprehension and understanding. I pray we are lead into the straight Path (Amin). Maliha :-) |
| Re: will Gandhi go to hell? |
|---|
| PeaceSeeker |
| 05/22/02 at 01:37:15 |
| [slm] Personally, I don't think anybody is in a positiion to say definetly where Gandhi or the likes of him will end up. As Allah says only "He" knows what lies in your heart. I don't know where exactly in the Quran it says but Allah has said that the truth will reach EVERYONE. And it will be because of this fact EVERYONE would be held resposible for their actions. People say but I know people who never heard about the Truth and died. Well, if thats they case then there is nothing to worry about. As said earlier you are held responsible only if you were given the truth and yet you rejected it. So if Gandhi, Mother Teresa or Lady Diana or anyone for that matter rejected that truth He/she will end up in Hell. It does not matter if they were very kind and beautiful or mean and ugly. There's another way of looking at this. The reason people ask these sort of questions is because these "Good" people were very kind and loving people. It goes against our sense of justice that they be punished for not being muslims even though they lived their life with such kindness. If you look at it with Islams or Allahs way you would see , as they say, the infinite justice behind it. And I'll try to show you why it is justified. God creates you with a purpose. That purpose being, to worship "Him" as "He" wishes to be worshiped. Thats "His" right. But, lets say, when you come into being you either completely or partially reject your purpose of being. Though being kind and helpful is part of serving your purpose You still commited the biggest crime anyone could possibly commit. which is, doing what YOU thought was right. You disregarded your creators wish. You had one purpose and one purpose only and you failed to fulfill it. Period ! I read this at some other reliable place that the Good deeds of a kafir(unbeliever) don't go unrewarded. God living up to "His" name rewards the Kafir for his good deeds here in this world. So in the end it does turn out to be a justified course of action. Even by our incomplete sense of justice. To tell you the Truth. Lets say, if inshallah(By Gods Grace), I end up in Paradise for living a rightouess life by the rules of God. And there I meet someone who denied Gods mere existence. But found his way into paradise for being a "Nice" Guy. I would be one very pissed Paradise dweller. Honest to God. I'd be happy for him/her but would have a feeling that I somehow was wronged PeaceSeeker PS: don't take the last part too seriously. I was just hypothesizing |
| Re: will Gandhi go to hell? |
|---|
| Abu_Hamza |
| 05/22/02 at 14:25:46 |
| [slm] PeaceSeeker, I would be very careful with my words. That last paragraph ... you may wanna think deeply about the consequences of what you're saying sister. Your point is well taken though, and there was no need, I think, to say what you said in that last paragraph. Wallaahu a'lam. This thread reminded me of something I read yesterday in a biography of Prophet Muhammad [saw] written by Ibn Kathir ([url=http://store.yahoo.com/islamicbookstore-com/b3834.html]this book[/url]). The first few chapters of the book mention accounts of some famous Arab people/tribes before the birth of the Prophet [saw], and there was one account of a famous Arab man named Haatim Taa'ee. We talked a little bit about Haatim Taa'ee on the old board in [url=http://www.jannah.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl/YaBB.pl?board=ark&action=display&num=809]this[/url] thread. Haatim was well-known in Arabia for his extreme generosity and helpful nature. He died before the Prophethood of Rasulullah [saw]. His son, Adi Ibn Haatim, after accepting Islam, once asked the Messenger of Allah (pbuh) of his father - whether or not he would enter Paradise because there was a lot of good which he had performed. The reply of the Prophet (pbuh) was pretty short and simple ... "That man did something for a purpose, and he achieved that purpose." The purpose being fame. There is more discussion about this in the book actually. Those of you who have access to it may wanna check it out. Wassalamu alaikum wa rahmatullah. |
| Re: will Gandhi go to hell? |
|---|
| Chris |
| 05/22/02 at 15:24:52 |
| Speaking for myself, are we supposed to worship God/Allah/Yahwah or Christianity/Islam/Judisam? It is supreame arrigence to assume that anyone not following a perticluer religion will go to Hell. God judges everyone individually, that is a common theme, and to think that they would be just judged by their religion is too limited. By the by, I would not object if I was in heaven and came across an athiest. I expect that they would be rather mixed up though, :D Chris |
| Re: will Gandhi go to hell? |
|---|
| Faiz |
| 05/22/02 at 17:21:13 |
| [quote] But if I walk out into the wild alone - theres a wonderful place in Edinburgh for this - and just reach out and feel, I can feel God all round me. Can all of Islam match up to that? [/quote] Chris, nature in its breathtaking forms (huge waterfalls, mountains valleys) is one of the most striking proofs of Allah SWT. when we encounter it, we are overwhelmed coz we see the signs of Allah SWT. and as you rightly said, we can 'feel' him. i read somewhere that the arabic word for the five daily prayers ('salaat') translates into 'contact with God'. When you pray, you should pray with such sincerity that you can 'feel' Him. and if you keep this up 24/7, His existence will permeate your conscious and being and will dictate each of your thought and action. and to me, that is what Islam is about - God consciousness. if you're able to achieve that, rest everything is mere detail. [slm] |
| Re: will Gandhi go to hell? |
|---|
| PeaceSeeker |
| 05/22/02 at 18:09:20 |
| [slm] Yeah, now that you mention it the last part does seem wierd. But hey I was just being honest with myself. And chris about what you said: [quote]Speaking for myself, are we supposed to worship God/Allah/Yahwah or Christianity/Islam/Judisam? It is supreame arrigence(arrogance) to assume that anyone not following a perticluer religion will go to Hell. God judges everyone individually, that is a common theme, and to think that they would be just judged by their religion is too limited. [/quote] You say God judges individually. But based on what would "He" judge the individualls? Even in this world a judge of a particular country judges on the basis of the law of the country. And you cannot plead ignorance of the law when caught commiting a crime. It is expected of you to know the law of the land. You cannot say in defence that you do not see your actions as a crime because in my sense of reasoning they look completly valid. The judge woudn't care how it looks by your point of view. You see my point? Islam is the law and Allah is the judge. . And as a citizen of this world it becomes our responsibilty to know what that law is. What we think about the law will not change it. pretty simple don't you think? |
| Re: will Gandhi go to hell? |
|---|
| Kashif |
| 05/22/02 at 19:42:23 |
| assalaamu alaikum Just to highlight an important point that PeaceSeeker made is that it is only acceptable to worship God in the way that He is pleased with. Not the way that you think pleases Him. You can't simply pick and choose how you worship God - how do you know that He is happy with it? If we're going to go down the path of agreeing that everyone should be allowed to worship God how they want to and that there are several paths leading to God, then you have to accept that the Hindu's path to God (which includes such rituals as wife-burning) is acceptable; that singing and swaying in Churches is what pleases God, etc And for Muslims, such a belief means rejecting the ayah: "And whoever seeks a religion other than Islam, never shall it be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers." The issue i think is, which of the many paths that people claim lead to God is the correct one? And thats where one uses his God-give faculties of reasoning to arrive at an honest answer. -------------------------------- [quote]It is supreame arrigence to assume that anyone not following a perticluer religion will go to Hell. God judges everyone individually, that is a common theme, and to think that they would be just judged by their religion is too limited.[/quote] Chris, where did this idea come from? Since you're speaking about God, and presuming that He will judge (or not judge) in a certain way, then surely you must have some sort of firm evidence to back up this claim. Where were you informed that God is like this? From which person and/or which book? And as a side note, if you were to add up the total number of followers of Islam, Xtianity, Judaism & Hinduism you'd find that it exceeds half the population of the Earth. Yet, each of these religions at their core say that if you reject their fundamental message you are a disbeliever. And we know where disbelievers end up right? My point is you are in effect accusing over 50% of the world population of 'supreme arrogance.' hmmmm...... -------------------------------- What i've been taught is that people who are non-Muslims are generally people of the Fire, yet we are not allowed to point at any specific individual and say 'this person is for certain one of the denizens of Hell,' since such a person may have some excuse somewhere before Allah that will excuse him. It may be that the Message didn't reach him, or that the message wasn't delivered properly, etc. And Allah knows best. Kashif Wa Salaam |
| NS |
| Re: will Gandhi go to hell? |
|---|
| sweetgrass |
| 05/24/02 at 00:01:11 |
| Hi all~i hope you don't mind if i join the discussion here :). You know, Chris, I kind of agree with you that there may be more than one path that may lead a person to God-conciousness. But my idea's are pretty ideo-syncratic--so i wouldn't expect many people to agree with my own views, nor is it too nessesary. I sort of grew up with the concept that in the end it is each man or woman alone before God--just yourself, your concience, and your God. This is not nessesarily Islamic, however, Islam does teach that on the day of judgement we will be surounded/engulfed in such a bright light that we will be unable to see those to our left or right. So i think that we might as well be alone. I have also read that this judgement of souls lasts one day, but that our perception of time is altered, as is our perception of material space--as all souls, billions and trillions, gather on the judgement plane. My thoughts being that if God/Allah is willing to alter and transend natural boundries of time, space, and the material plane, what is there to prevent him from altering our entire set of perceptions in human experience?--Might we not also hear differently, know more; i mean if we are seeing differently, and God is overcoming time and space and perceptual and physical limitations, might He be willing to trancend the boundries of creed as well? I am skeptical that there is any formula phrase that one need speak that can gaurantee us entry into heaven. I think it has to be a living vital faith written in the heart that manifests into reality in work representative of the spirit of divine goodwill and intervention in the lives of people for the betterment of mankind. Good works large and small, I also sort of think/feel that in fact there are a host of reasons other than arrogance that might cause a person to chose one religion over another. There are reasons of heritage, for one--and even if you appreciate the value of your heritage and the relationship of your forefathers to God, and their true expressions of faith, God is beyond limitations of heritage. People also want to be part of a group that they can identify with--people who have common intersts, who are sharing a common experience, and who speak the same language--a social group. Whether you are talking about work--sharing shop talk, discussing hobbies--such as photography, or questioning the meaning of life through religion, when you find a group of people who share your feelings and interests, one derives many gains--comfort, security, the safety of a group, comraderie--one feels that he or she is not alone, that they share a common experience, ask the same kinds of questions, and this provides a buffer zone against a world that can be strange and at times uncomfortable. By the same token groups also want to keep out strangers, people who do not share their belief system, because strangers may question their system, creating discomfort, and causing feelings of estrangement from the group--that sense of isolation that brought them into the group in the first place may begin to reassert itself--and rather than disconnect with a group that provides some shelter from the strangeness of the world, they point out to the stranger that the group is a closed group--only the believers will experience heaven. If the stranger agrees to accept this and adopts the belief system, then he/she too, can experience a sense of belonging inside the group process. If he/she resists, it is likely that he/she will sokner or later need to move on and find a new group, till he/she finds the group that fits. Never fear--there are groups and groups beyond measure, so there's a place for everyone to fit. It's a question of how God reaches out to us, and how we reach out to God, and regardless of heritage, it's an experience all people share. Since we see that God/Allah can transend all boundries, and is just, and merciful, and All that is Allah, and infinite, I think we have reason to trust God and never despair. All ah knows best. Just my two cents. :) Patti |
| Re: will Gandhi go to hell? |
|---|
| struggling |
| 05/24/02 at 00:12:10 |
| [slm] From the Holy Quran (Translation: Marmaduke Pickthall): 2:62. Lo! those who believe (in that which is revealed unto thee, Muhammad), and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve. 3:85. And whoso seeketh as religion other than the Surrender (to Allah) it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter. 5:3. ..... This day have I perfected your religion for you and completed My favor unto you, and have chosen for you as religion AL- ISLAM. Whoso is forced by hunger, not by will, to sin: (for him) lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. Wassalam |
| Re: will Gandhi go to hell? |
|---|
| PeaceSeeker |
| 05/24/02 at 02:26:32 |
| [slm] Would somebody please, in simple words, explain what sweetgrass was trying to say. Especially what she meant by [quote]might He be willing to trancend the boundries of creed as well? [/quote] Secondly, [quote]I am skeptical that there is any formula phrase that one need speak that can gaurantee us entry into heaven.[/quote] Islam does not garuntee that if you profess shahada(Faith) in God you get a ticket into Paradise while really not consciously believing in Him.. To be a believer one has to realize God. One has to consciously believe in God to enter paradise. So in Islam there is no place for anyone who thinks by speaking out a formula phrase he/she gets to get into paradise. Thirdly, I didn't understand the bright light engulfing us part. It is common knowledge in islam that in the end it is you and God. Sure there would be other people witnessing the trial but they would have no say. Unless they are somehow related to your deeds they would have no say at all. To tell you the truth I didn't understand most of your message. Just couldn't figure out what was the point you were trying to make. |
| Re: will Gandhi go to hell? |
|---|
| jannah |
| 05/24/02 at 03:28:46 |
| [quote]I am skeptical that there is any formula phrase that one need speak that can gaurantee us entry into heaven.[/quote] hmm sounds like someone who doesn't believe in revelation from God sent in the form of prophets/books? |
| Re: will Gandhi go to hell? |
|---|
| mwishka |
| 05/24/02 at 07:01:01 |
| dear peaceseeker, perhaps you might have used the first person to ask sweetgrass to translate for you? i'll try to help you understand what she wrote. for the particular question you asked about transcending creed, she merely said that in her opinion, if god is omnipotent, he could as easily choose to view creed (choice of religion) as an artifact of the material world, much as time, space, etc. - as just one more of those material manifestations which have meaning to us but not to him. the bright light part was saying that (i'm just translating here, remember - i don't know the facts of this...) in islam there is a belief that coming to face god we will find ourselves in the midst of an overwhelming brightness. due to this brightness, in fact, we would not be able to tell who those around us are. perhaps raising the question that those around us also in the presence of god might not all be muslims. she was emphasizing that this time will be only between a person and their god. she said that it is her opinion that it is who we are individually in our hearts and what we do in the world that matter to god in his assessment of us. and she said that the choice of religion for an individual might very well be made in a very simple human way, based on circumstance: that if you encounter a religion in a way that does not welcome you, and is not open to you, you will move on, until you find a place where you feel you belong and are accepted. and she said that the search for god and the desire to experience him are universal. i hope that clears things up for you. sweetgrass, sorry if i mangled any of what you were trying to say. mwishka |
| Re: will Gandhi go to hell? |
|---|
| muqaddar |
| 05/24/02 at 11:34:52 |
| [slm] Theres a interesting book on this subject called 'the Vision of Islam' by a japanese author. If you are saying that everything else is an artifice created by God then you u must acknowledge that god is the ultimate truth, hence somebody who has rejected god has rejected truth and is thus a creature of artifice. It is the peak of arrogance to assume that you know best how god would like to be worshipped. If god has said something you either do or do not do. Your physical actions have a spiritual effect on your soul. The more the physical action is correct and in tune with your mental state the better the action on your soul |
| Re: will Gandhi go to hell? |
|---|
| Chris |
| 05/25/02 at 14:47:16 |
| [quote]Chris, where did this idea come from? Since you're speaking about God, and presuming that He will judge (or not judge) in a certain way, then surely you must have some sort of firm evidence to back up this claim. Where were you informed that God is like this? From which person and/or which book? [/quote] No book or person, just simple observation. The human races history goes back around 10'000 years. Islam has been around for 1600 years. In the time between the appearence of the human race and The Prohet (may he know what is done in his name) what happened then? Did the followers of Jupiter, Toutatis, Zeus, etc. simply go to hell? God may be harsh, but he is never unjust. He has the implied abilty to KNOW everything about a person, their hopes, fears, beliefs and intentions. He can then judge them individually. The religions mentioned by people have a charming habit of killing each other over what appears to me to be minor differences in beliefs. The Jews got massicared in their thousands by an extreame offshoot of Christanity, Christantiy launched the Crusades against Islam, and Muslams massicared christians in Turkey. In the balkans, christan and muslims fight daily, in Isreal and palistane, jews kill muslams and are killed in tern. Three quathers of the human race may claim to be religous, but they often do not agree with each other, and many act as if there was no god at all. Chris |
| Re: will Gandhi go to hell? |
|---|
| Kashif |
| 05/25/02 at 16:50:53 |
| assalaamu alaikum Chris, I'm afraid i don't follow. How can you deduce God's system of judgment by simple observation, (and observation of what?) when no one has been judged as yet. Stuff like there are many paths leading to God and that God isn't as unjust as to discriminate against people based on religion, sounds alot to me like what i often hear from young Christians who say things like "God is love." Where did God say this? Is it from an authoritative text? Or revealed upon someone with a definite claim to true revelation? If not, its just a personal opinion. And if its just a personal opinion, its just that - an opinion formulated in one's own mind, and not necessarily based on any evidence. As a Muslim, or even just as a rational person, i can't accept people making up things - even though they may sound nice - about God without any proof. I believe what i do about Allah/God because i believe in the truthfulness of Muhammad (sallallahu alaihi wa sallam). And i've reached this conclusion by studying his biography and the various different proofs that point to this fact. This issue about Gandhi or there being many paths to God or other things like hijab and jihad are still only secondary matters. The issue that is at the core of most of these discussions is, was the Prophet Muhammad true in what he said and is the Qur'an truly the Word of God? Because if he was, and if the Qur'an really is the Word of God, how can you argue against what God has said about how He will judge peopl? I am certain that if you spent a few weeks, with an open mind, studying the various different proofs pointing to the above two statements to be true, you would be convinced of Muhammad's claim to Prophethood too. Kashif Wa Salaam PS Having re-read this post of mine, i must admit that it sounds quite disjointed. If any part of it doesn't make any sense please feel free to ask. |
| NS |
| Re: will Gandhi go to hell? |
|---|
| sweetgrass |
| 05/26/02 at 01:08:55 |
| HI again. :) Mwishka, you are truely amazing. Do you have your doctorate--in behavioral science, modern communications media and molecular biology as well?! ;) Thanks for your explanations--i often run in to people who wonder, what the heck is she talking about, and i can't do much but launch a lengthy explanation which is likely to be as confusing as what i said in the first place :D Jannah~ I sort of want to reply to your question as to do I believe in God's spoken, written revelation through the prophets, and the Prophet [saw]. In a round about way, I will also be reponding to Kashif's comment or question, do i regard the source's of my beleifs as having come from authoritative texts or an authorataive source, and who might that sourse be? I believe that all of the magnificent ancient texts, from the Majabaratta to the Veda's; the Torah; the Bible; the Quran; the teachings of the path of the middle way-the Tao; the Eygyptian Book of the Dead; the legends and oral traditions of the American Indian which are at last being recorded for history--were all equally inspired, and all have the potential to bring about a lasting manifestation of change for the better in the human psyche. I believe that the very fact that these great works have endured was by an act of God, and that they describe our (mankinds) psyche and spiritual relationships to the world around us with such clarity and depth of perception, that if we are or were to approach any one of them with an open mind, there would be great spiritual growth within us and find food and water for the hungry soul to thrive. I beleive that each of these works was tailored through cultural experience and the personalities of the leaders to be approriate to the culture of which it is a part. I also beleive that the works are so universal in their applicability to the human condition and the process of divine revelation of the will of God in our lives that we cannot fail to improve ourselves and our relationship with God and the people around us if we delve into any of these works with a desire to see and know God. I sort of think that God can speak to anyone in his or her own language, and does. He makes sense of life using language, metephors, similies, commands and antedotes, that make sense to that individual within the context of his or her own life's experiences as a participant in a larger culture. God, being absolute, absolutely can speak to each person in his or her own language, and can use cultural ideologies, expressions and practices already in place and can provide guidance for navigating within the millue. Being absolute, he can also be absdolute truth, absolute justice, absolute mercy, absolute love--and although no one want's to say so, I suppose he could be absolute rage if he wished, but there must, by the fact that we are finite, and God is infinite, be attributes that we don't understand. We are specks on earth, and God, we hope and pray, is greater than the infinite Universe--sort of Infinitly larger than infinity, if we could concept that out--we are specks--he is infinite, and knows us, by and through his infinite power, he knows us intimately well. We can plainly see this in these ancient truthful works of religion that continue to speak to hearts today. So yes, I do believe that Muhammad [saw] was truthful, that the Quran was divinely inspired. I also think the truth which he spoke is nearer to your heart than mine, because you are a part of the culture which produced both MUhammed [saw] and the Quran and I was raised on other verses. I think all of those old texts are the voice of authority, as mankind has rested it's faith in the words of these works for years past imagining! It's hard for us to conceptualize how long these ancient works have been around. This doesn't mean i go to the Bahai temple on monday, the christian temple on tuesday, mass on wednesday, the majiid on friday, the disco on saturday---i don't. But i do take worship very seriously, and study both it and myself. I strive to arrive at complete surrender to God's will. That's just me. And if there's anyone i meet who is taking God, their spiritual growth, and search for meaning in life to heart, and that's most people; they are welcome to be my brethren if they want to be. If they don't want to there's no blame--i can't be related to everybody, ya know? [] So it's sort of a loose construct, it can include lot's of people, and in other ways it's specific enough to put into exact words. For me to say that any one religion is the absolute truth is too limiting. It describes a limitation to Gods power and might, his truth, his abilities--i don't believe God is limited in that way. As to how do we decide how to worship Him--i would think that to worship as you were taught would be the best catalyst, and then, Inshallah, He will lead on. That about sums it up for me. I have no reason to doubt Muhammed or the Quran. I think he fit's into my world view much better than i fit into his. Peace be upon him. MIshka?...///...///...///=\\\//\//\\\/;;\\//////\/\;;...!!! (j/k)( --doesn't mean anything, just messin round) OK then. Off for the evening. :) Sweetgrass |
| Re: will Gandhi go to hell? |
|---|
| Asim |
| 05/26/02 at 02:32:21 |
| Hi sweetgrass, How would you reconcile the differences in ethics and morality, and more importantly, in concept of deity/god (or gods) and worship that exist in the texts you mentioned you 'believe' in? You mentioned God is absolute and would allow 'individual religions' as long as they seek Him in sincerety. Now, God wants the best for all creation and creations do not exist in isolation. Wouldn't simple logic lead one to conclude that there has to be one universal law and philosophy that unifies all creations without there being chaos? Have you ever thought of the fact that there is no major religious text - like the ones you mentioned - after the Quran revealed to Muhammad [saw], even after 1400 years have passed, while in the preceding centuries there were more than one? I encourage you to read the entire quran. In it, God addresses mankind and provides proofs on the correctness of the message revealed to Muhammad and the fallacies in other creeds. The cultural argument you made doesn't really apply. The cultures of all those ancient religions don't exist today. However, Muslims belong to all cultures, and this has been true since Islam was revealed as the univeral religion by God/Allah 1400 years ago. |
| 05/26/02 at 11:11:23 |
| Asim |
| Re: will Gandhi go to hell? |
|---|
| Kashif |
| 05/26/02 at 05:53:58 |
| assalaamu alaikum I think you hit the nail on the head with that first line of yours Asim. World religions are just too different in their teaching of God (and often in other issues too) for one to believe that they can be/are all valid. They may share some universal truths such as stealing is wrong, murder is wrong (although the thuggies of India may have an issue with you there), etc. but there are fundamental differences between them which you ignore at your peril. Even the forms of worship have huge differences. If you worship thru intermediaries, such as the idol gods of Hindus, then according to Jews & Muslims you're insulting God, and according to Xtians you're worshipping through the wrong intermediary - it should be Jesus. If you believe that God has a son, as the Christians do, then you're blaspheming according to other religions, etc. It seems almost as if you're picking and mixing what you feel like from amongst the religions of the world. Kashif Wa Salaam |
| NS |
| 05/26/02 at 09:44:59 |
| Kashif |
| Re: will Gandhi go to hell? |
|---|
| PeaceSeeker |
| 05/26/02 at 07:13:01 |
| [wlm] (Peace be unto you) O my God ! Girl/Boy you have no idea how close you are to being a MUSLIM. Sweetgrass my statement might sound strange or even offending but believe me whatever you have observed on your own-supposing it is your own observation- is so close to the Truth revealed to us in Islam through Prophet Muhammad [saw] that it is just a matter of time. Allow me to explain. I'll narrate the history of man through the eyes of islam. Then you'll see how it is so similar. First God created Adam and his companion eve. Since they were the first humans the truth was made known to them directly. In other words their source was God "Himself"; I've used "" marks for a reason. As you might already know God has no gender and I THINK the pronoun Him is used because there is no pronoun for a genderless being in the english language. So as I was saying, God made the truth known to Adam "personally". And instructed him to teach it to his children the same truth he was taught. As time passed by people become more in number and Adam and eve become ancient history. But the Truth as it was being passed down in time become distorted. People ask sometimes how could the truth become distorted as time passed by. Well, nobody is saying it was intentional. But word of mouth changes as it passes from one person to another. This was actually proved by my instructor in my philosophy class. There were about 60 students in class.The professor said something to the first person sitting in the first row and told him to whisper it into the ear of the person sitting next to him. And on it went. When the last person in the last row received the piece of information our professor asked him to say it out loud. To our amazement it had become so distorted that only half of it was the same to the original. So it's not really difficult to understand how the truth got distroted from the orginal. As later generations did not posses the truth in its original form. God fulfilling "HIS" duty directly revealed the truth to another person. This person became the messenger of God and it become his duty to spread it. In the similar manner later generations kept distorting the Truth and God kept sending messengers. This would be an appropriate place to explain why other religions are cultural and time specific while Islam is universal. According to the holy Quran. When humankind grew and as a consequence divided into nations and states, messengers where sent to every nation who could teach them the truth keeping their time and place into consideration. Eventhough these revealed religions differed they did not differ in their basics. Like the purpose of creation, meaning of life, the unseen reality of God, paradise and hell remained the same. What did differ was the way of worship. This is the fact which explains why you find different ways of reaching "great spiritual growth[..] and find food and water for the hungry soul to thrive." So in a way you are right to say, [quote]"I believe that all of the magnificent ancient texts, from the Majabaratta to the Veda's; the Torah; the Bible; the Quran; the teachings of the path of the middle way-the Tao; the Eygyptian Book of the Dead; the legends and oral traditions of the American Indian which are at last being recorded for history--were all equally inspired, and all have the potential to bring about a lasting manifestation of change for the better in the human psyche."[/quote] But the reason, as already mentioned above is, we cannot follow those early revealed religions as they have been distroted from their original form. And again according to the Quran, Prophet Muhammad was the last messenger sent from God. Since he was the last in the line of messengers his message was made universal for the entire human race till the end of time. At this point I would like to restate what Asim had said in his post about no other religion coming into existence of the same proportions as of the earlier religions since the time of Muhammad. [quote]Have you ever thought why there is no major religious text - like the ones you mentioned - after the Quran revealed to Muhammad , even after 1400 years have passed, while in the preceding centuries there were more than one? [/quote] Now you might ask why would he be the last? Can't the same happen with his message as it had happened with the earlier messengers? Is it not possible the alleged truth muslims have now be different from the truth originally brougth by the Muhammad [saw] ? Well, the answer obviously, is no. And the evidence to prove is as follows. First, God has said in the Quran, that the message sent to Muhammad [saw] would not go under any change. It would stay pure till the day of judgement. I know you must be saying how can the authenticity of something in question be the proof of its own authenticity. So we find another way. We put the message of Muhammad [saw] also known as the Holy Quran, to the test of time. Just as we had suspected it turns out it does. About 1400 years have passed and there has never been a different version of the Quran. Don't take my word for it you can check it out for yourself. But if you put any of the other messages to the same test you would find a myriad versions of the same message. Now you might ask how is it that the message of Muhammad has survived and retained its original form while others could not. Well, there are few reasons but the main reason would be that it didn't stay in an oral form. Before Muhammad [saw] passed away he made sure it was written down under his supervision. I'm not making this up. This is history. Even non-muslim historians agree that the Quran is the only written work to have retained its original form for such a long time. You can still find written versions of the Quran from the time of the prophet. And if you compare them to the one we have right now they would not differ in even a single letter. There are other tests to prove the authenticity of the message of Muhammad [saw], like the test of reason or logic, for which I don't have the strength or the capacity to put it through. But I would say test of time would suffice it for now. On another note, the following quote from your post is exactly the islamic "philosophy". [quote]God, being absolute, absolutely can speak to each person in his or her own language, and can use cultural ideologies, expressions and practices already in place and can provide guidance for navigating within the millue. Being absolute, he can also be absdolute truth, absolute justice, absolute mercy, absolute love--and although no one want's to say so, I suppose he could be absolute rage if he wished, but there must, by the fact that we are finite, and God is infinite, be attributes that we don't understand. We are specks on earth, and God, we hope and pray, is greater than the infinite Universe--sort of Infinitly larger than infinity, if we could concept that out--we are specks--he is infinite, and knows us, by and through his infinite power, he knows us intimately well. We can plainly see this in these ancient truthful works of religion that continue to speak to hearts today. [/quote] And the thing through which God speaks to us is our conscience. I hope I was able to make myself clear 'cause I gave all that I could. By now I don't have the stregth to write any further. PeaceSeeker |
| Re: will Gandhi go to hell? |
|---|
| Kashif |
| 05/26/02 at 09:52:11 |
| [quote author=PeaceSeeker link=board=madrasa;num=1021677163;start=15#27 date=05/26/02 at 07:13:01] And the thing through which God speaks to us is our conscience. [/quote] assalaamu alaikum I agreed with much of what you say, Peaceseeker, but i thought that this last statement was treading on dangerous ground. There are men who walk the streets of NY & London believing that they are the mahdi, and they will effectively say that they believe they are true in their claim because God has inspired them or spoken to them thru their conscience. Probably the worst case of this was in 1979 when 300 or so people stormed Masjid al-Haram under the leadership of another man who had been 'inspired' that he was the Mahdi. Unfortunately, that lead to a firefight and many innocent people were killed. And likewise you have so many people believing they are Jesus, etc. I'm not denying that Allah plants a thought or an inclination towards a certain direction in the hearts of men and women, but the statement made by itself is a bit too broad. Kashif Wa Salaam |
| NS |
| Re: will Gandhi go to hell? |
|---|
| Chris |
| 05/26/02 at 10:39:05 |
| True, and can you name a religion that does not claim a specal place in God's heart? Chris |
| Re: will Gandhi go to hell? |
|---|
| mwishka |
| 05/26/02 at 14:57:31 |
| ah, chris, you set me up! tantalizingly dangling a question with the inherent implication that it has no answer?? you underestimate the mendacity of the minds of those of us afflicted with insatiable curiosity...... i believe at least ONE answer to that question is buddhism. and i believe there are others. mwishka |
| Re: will Gandhi go to hell? |
|---|
| jannah |
| 05/26/02 at 15:51:48 |
| [quote author=Chris link=board=madrasa;num=1021677163;start=15#22 date=05/25/02 at 14:47:16] No book or person, just simple observation. The human races history goes back around 10'000 years. Islam has been around for 1600 years. In the time between the appearence of the human race and The Prohet (may he know what is done in his name) what happened then? Did the followers of Jupiter, Toutatis, Zeus, etc. simply go to hell? God may be harsh, but he is never unjust. He has the implied abilty to KNOW everything about a person, their hopes, fears, beliefs and intentions. He can then judge them individually. [/quote] That's right.. He does judge them individually based upon whether or not the message reached them and whether or not they followed it. Why would God just leave people on Earth. We clearly mess everything up when we have no guidance. That is why God has sent propehts and messengers throughout all times and peoples. All calling back to the way of God. This includes Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad [saw], the last of the Messengers. Now why is he the last? Maybe technology or human evolution has developed enough that His message doesn't need to have messengers anymore. [quote] The religions mentioned by people have a charming habit of killing each other over what appears to me to be minor differences in beliefs. The Jews got massicared in their thousands by an extreame offshoot of Christanity, Christantiy launched the Crusades against Islam, and Muslams massicared christians in Turkey. In the balkans, christan and muslims fight daily, in Isreal and palistane, jews kill muslams and are killed in tern. [/quote] I'd like a reference for your Muslims massacared Christians in Turkey. Now the difference between Islam and other religions is that Islam does not condone, enjoin the converting/killing of people into Islam based upon religion. This concept might be known to us as "freedom of religion". So you may find in history some acts committed by people based upon politics or history or self-aggrandizement but it's never been about forcing Islam or the domination of Islam over all others. As for the balkans and palestine, I think we again fall into the trap of thinking these things are about religion. They are not. Study the history and cultures and the legitimate disputes of these people which may originally have been brought about because of people practicing their religion, but it is still not about one religion trying to dominate another. Which brings me to the main point that religions themselves are not evil. They do not encourage the atrocities that some people commit in their name. How can we prove that? Read the Quran and find out for yourself :) [quote] Three quathers of the human race may claim to be religous, but they often do not agree with each other, and many act as if there was no god at all. [/quote] Subhanallah how true a statement! ps oh yeah about your question about a special place in God's heart. Just being Muslim or calling yourself Muslim does not mean you have a special place in God's heart (unlike some other faiths). Closeness to God is only attained through piety and good deeds and God-consciousness. |
| 05/26/02 at 15:56:56 |
| jannah |
| Re: will Gandhi go to hell? |
|---|
| Kashif |
| 05/26/02 at 16:12:41 |
| assalaamu alaikum Agreed mwiskha... not Buddhism. They don't believe in God in the first place do they? But, the issue has been sidestepped. Even if one is implying that God loves people of all religions, then either it is an idea based in revelation (an authoritative text) OR is just an idea made up in one's own head to which someone assessing the opinion can then attach the appropriate credit/level of importance. Kashif Wa Salaam |
| NS |
| Re: will Gandhi go to hell? |
|---|
| sofia |
| 05/26/02 at 16:16:40 |
| Fascinating, ppl, fas-cin-at-ing. Where's Abu Khaled these days, anyway? The thing about Islam is that it "smacks" you with logic. There is no wishy-washy-ness about it, nothing (in terms of matters of faith or *who* to have faith in) left to interpretation for our lower-selves to figure out. I don’t say that to degrade humankind, only to point out that *that* is what makes us humans and the very reason God reveals truth to mankind. So often, our notion of religion/faith/God is defined by someone else (whether you're a Christian, Jew, Muslim, whatever), which are often human interpretations of a higher truth (human opinion is just that, it is and always will be fallible, unlike the word of God. Anyone disagreeing with that last statement will likely hold rationalism as a higher "truth" than divine revelation; so help you. Just what defines "divine revelation" will follow, God willing). We tend to get ourselves so tangled up in the tight cords of different interpretations, that at some point, we end up reacting with our *own* interpretation of divine teachings, in order to reconcile our, by now, warped beliefs with our purpose in existence. Don't be fooled into thinking Muslims are not capable of doing the same; there are plenty of Muslims who attempt to interpret revelations according to their own limited knowledge/understanding/subversive intentions, and accordingly, teach it to others. Even when divine teachings reach mankind through God's various messengers, the folly of mankind is to deny. Man's biggest self-deception is that there is no Day of Judgement (and related to it, no Paradise or Hell). Without this yaqin/certainty of the D of J, we ignore the question. What is *the* question? What will get us entry into Paradise (as opposed to the fire)? Without the pursuit of the answer and living our lives in accordance to it, we are like the owners of a car that we do not know how to or refuse to drive out of danger and into safety. Now the following question you may have heard, but I want to simplify it for my own purposes, since I am not the best philosopher. If you believe in a Just, Merciful, Loving God, would you not also believe that God would provide you with the path that would lead you to Him? And do you believe that if God provided for us *many* paths, we would be safe from choosing additional, "deviant" paths (ie, take a wrong turn and get lost in that car we really don't even know how to drive)? Would not a Just God want the best, easiest path for His creation (rather than see us run around in circles)? Would not a Just, Loving God want to make things clear? Reflect for a moment about the wisdom of God and the wisdom of His creation. The Islamic-viewpoint is simply this: most of us are born with a gift from God called 'aql/reason to decide on what path to take: to fulfill our 'ubudiyyah/servitude to God, or to fulfill our servitude to something else (everyone "serves" something or other, whether it is Jesus, Buddha, alcohol, money, spouse, our lower desires, etc. These examples are what, in essence, we can be a slave to, not necessarily what we worship. Islam has practical teachings, such as the five daily prayers, that go beyond [but include] servitude into worship of the Divine. People living in places or times in which a divine teaching was not touched will be judged according to God, not us; He knows and is not unjust). What distinguishes us from animals/angels is that we have this choice (there are other threads that discuss this), so it should be made based on the most authentic sources made available to us. Those who believe in the last revelation of God to be the Qur'aan *also* believe God revealed earlier truths in the Torah, the Gospels, the Psalms as well. Even more, there are other revealed truths that the Qur'aan acknowledges but does not go into detail about. Now, what I'm about to say is also verified by "Doctors" of religion, whether they are Christians, Jewish, atheist, whatever: the Torah, Gospels and Psalms were all touched, to some degree, by human inclusions. That is to say, some man/group of men (somehow, I doubt women got into the mix here, but God knows best), not considered widely to be prophets, went ahead and added some passages, chapters, whole books to original teachings, thus, making it not the exclusive word of God, but now, also the word of man. One example, St. Paul was a one-time opponent of Christianity and is thought to have never even met Jesus (upon him be peace), but instead, had a vision of Jesus speaking to him, the reason for his conversion. He became what some might say, a pious Christian, and by others, also a "saint". Yet, of the 27 books of the New Testament, no less than 14 are attributed to him. And no where does Christianity teach that St. Paul was a "god" nor did Jesus attribute himself to be more than a Prophet during his lifetime, although Paul's teachings do include the latter concept. Bottom line: knowing this about mankind, it should be understood that humans are likely to have (and in many cases, proven to have) done the same to other divine teachings. Muslims, being human, would have done the same, had God not stated in the Qur'aan that no one would have the ability to change it until the end of time (thus, God has protected it, as it is the final revelation). Had the Qur'aan not been divinely protected from perversion, much of the patriarchal world Islam tried to liberate/"Muslims" would have deleted the verses about women's inheritance rights or right to divorce or own land, etc. While many laws in Islamic countries *even today* do not uphold these laws, they can NEVER delete these verses from the Qur'aan, and thus, these man-made laws exist in spite of Islamic teachings, not because of it. So while Muslims do indeed misinterpret and have been known to create false narratives of the Prophet (upon him be peace, also known as hadith), the verses of the Qur'aan are in the original language and word-for-word (forget that, letter-for-letter) order in which they were originally taught by the Prophet (the science of authenticizing ahadith does not compare to any other science, so yes, there are authentic hadith, as well). An aside: while orientalists like to play around with the fact that the Qur'aan is not written by revelation-order, it is actually written and recited by the order in which the Arch Angel Gabriel taught the Prophet (s). So what does Islam teach if it is authentic and if you really believe it to be a divine path? It is no different than the original teachings God sent to mankind: to believe in and serve One God, to uphold relations with kith and kin, to feed the poor & give in charity, to fast, to do unto others as you would have done to you (the Golden Rule taught in most every teaching, revealed or not, no?). I would argue, even moreso than man's misinterpretations (and maybe connected to it), it's the labels and resulting connotations that sometimes holds some individuals back from accepting it wholeheartedly. Those who believed in the earlier teachings also believed and did not discount that these earlier revelations included information about an upcoming Prophet (even after man-made inclusions), which later proved to be true when the revelations upholding the same truth came to Muhammad, peace be upon him. That's mainly why many Christians and Jews converted during the time of the Prophet (s). In fact, that's why a large community of Jews lived in Madinah even before Muhammad's prophethood. Only difference is that the last revelation is in the purest, most authentic form. As mentioned, God had warned in earlier revelations that He would send another Prophet. In the Qur'aan, God teaches that it is with Islam that He sealed the line of the Prophets, that there would be no more divine teachings after the Qur'aan til the D of J. So would it not be fitting that God would protect it, as the last revelation/teaching, from perversion? Otherwise, it would be unfair to later generations searching for truth, no? In Islam, you are either a believer or a non-believer. Once you are a believer, it is what you do with those teachings that ranks you in faith (for ex/ Mu-Islam or Muslim=one who is characterized or "does" Islam/submission to God, Mu-Iman or Mu'min, one who believes in the articles of faith in addition to being a Muslim, Mu-Ihsaan or Muhsin=one who believes with perfect/beautiful faith, as though s/he can see God, but if s/he cannot, knows God sees him/her, etc). You are not "saved" from the fire simply for being a believer (although you will eventually get there); the only Judge of both the inward and the outward is God, Al-Hakam (The Judge). I know I've left a lot of assumptions out there that I have not proven by equations taught in logic, but it is b/c of my own limited knowledge, not the limitations of Islam. Others are welcome to. Islam is, in fact, ruled by logic, so we should strive to understand and explain it as such, all mistakes are mine. For specifics about the teachings of Islam, there are many translations of the Qur'aan (even on the internet), but be wary. Even if your first language is Arabic, there is a history behind every single verse, just as any other divine revelation. None of it is antiquated so that it does not apply to any other period in time (which many who want to "reinterpret Islam" sometimes argue), but it has to be understood for its original purpose. In the end, the proof really is in the pudding, not in this inadequate explanation of it. And, btw-this is in no way an answer to the original question re: Gandhi. That only God knows (regarding what Gandhi knew of the Truth, what was in his heart, etc). www.islamicity.com/science/ www.harunyahya.com/m_books.php |
| NS |
| 05/26/02 at 16:31:04 |
| sofia |
| Re: will Gandhi go to hell? |
|---|
| UmmWafi |
| 05/27/02 at 12:12:06 |
| [slm] WOW......I have to stop being too busy with my work that I stay away from Madinat for too long. Phew !!! Reading Kulayni's Al-Kafi ain't as interesting as reading this thread heh heh. You know, reading the Quran (and the translated versions doesnt hurt either ;) ) I find that there are many phrases repeated over and over again. My favourite one is (pardon the poor Romanised translation) Afalaa Ta`qiluun. It means (loosely) Do they not think ? Now, the question is, what constitutes thinking ? Many of us assume that just because some mental activity was done and an idea developed, thinking has taken place. How very wrong we are. Do you know that there is a website whose mission is to "secularise Islam and Muslims so that the world will be a better place" (this question is redundant since there are many anti-Islam sites and I am sure each of you are aware of at least one ;) ). Now, the people running this website sure engaged in a lot of mental activities in trying to defile Islam but I truly doubt that they were thinking because their statements are too pathetic to warrant a reply. Back to the original question posted by Akhi Faiz. ( I am truly sorry if I sound delirious and disjointed but no sleep for 7 days is f-u-u-n-n wheeeee). He asked, Will Ghandi or people like him go to heaven when they die ? My answer is Do cats have souls ? Hmmm.... You know, whether life is complicated or not very much depends on us. I have a classmate who spent his youth fighting for his homeland Bosnia, came to Malaysia and did a double degree in 4 years and is now completing his MA while at the same time really really struggling to make ends meet cos he cant work in Malaysia under students' pass. I asked him how he manages and he says "God wills what He wills". Masya'Allah. I think I will have to spend a whole lifetime trying to make sure I get to heaven when I die (Insya'Allah) to be busy wondering whether others would or not.(This is not said in the selfish sense because of course I care abt the welfare of my brothers and sisters) Maybe because I think that is not my area of concern nor knowledge. (Here I am referring to areas that are exclusively Allah's domain as in questions like whether someone would die a Muslim) I understand that some people might argue that such questions are legitimate because they are metaphysical questions dealing with the question of justice in Islam and also knowledge of Allah's attributes. Well, my reply would be, if you have any questions regarding any facets of Islam, be it justice or womens' rights, look at what is revealed and ask not what is hypothetical. Conjectures and faith is not really an advisable coupling. Also, if your defence is that you are trying to know Allah's attributes and essence, well then, make sure u have complete knowledge of Allah's position in the order of Existence first before you leap forward to other things. Pardon the rambling, but I guess too often people ask random questions about Islam and Allah without first understanding the fundamentals and the basic. Do we know exactly all of Allah's likes and dislikes ? If we do, then we will be pretty busy trying to perform all that He likes and avoid all that He dislikes to gain His pleasure to be worrying about.....say....Do cats have souls ? Wallahualam bissawab. PS. If anyone of u could actually understand what I wrote here..well...uhh...can u explain my words to me ? LOL. If you don't, please call me back in abt 2 years time heh heh Wassalam. |
| 05/27/02 at 12:18:29 |
| UmmWafi |
| Re: will Gandhi go to hell? |
|---|
| humble_muslim |
| 05/28/02 at 05:44:03 |
| [slm] UmmWafi, I think you are saying that you are so busy worrying (and acting) on whether you yourself are going to Paradise or Hell, that you don't have time to think about others. Right ? If so, then I am in total agreement with you. |
| NS |
| Re: will Gandhi go to hell? |
|---|
| Chris |
| 05/28/02 at 13:04:34 |
| I'm not, it seems a little self-centred and selfish. I worry about my friends who slide on to the wrong path, is that wrong? Shade "we learn to live when we give each other what we need to survive" John Lennon |
| Re: will Gandhi go to hell? |
|---|
| jannah |
| 05/28/02 at 14:29:55 |
| Well I think this thread's been beaten to death enough... :) I'll close it so we can move on to some other discussions too. |
Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board |