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Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| Birth control 2 -IUD |
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| M.F. |
| 05/20/02 at 09:05:46 |
| Bismillah, Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullah, I was discussing this with my sister last weekend, and I realized something that startled me: if the IUD prevents a fertilized egg from being implanted and makes it go out, doesn't that mean it basically causes an abortion of some sort? I know it's not a fetus that gets aborted, but a fertilized egg is the first step. Any thoughts on this? |
| 05/22/02 at 20:58:07 |
| jannah |
| Re: Birth control 2 -IUD |
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| mwishka |
| 05/20/02 at 10:35:33 |
| MF, yes, many christian religions prohibit the use of the IUD for exactly that reason. and just want to throw in here, since many people here seem to lump christians together somehow, that there are many many MANY christian faiths, approximately 200 by one estimate i read. even within each of these faiths - or, as they're more accurately called denominations - there are many schools of thought. among the most traditional christian denominations, and even among conservative elements of christian religions which allow birth control, the IUD is considered an abhorrent practice. mwishka |
| Re: Birth control 2 -IUD |
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| mujaahid |
| 05/20/02 at 10:42:10 |
| [slm] I know the others were sisters only thread, but i've got my hijab on as i really wanted to say something. :-) All this talk of contraception, preventing pregnancy. Well i wanna ask, whats wrong with having kids? I was reading the other thread (with my Hijab on of course :-)) and it was so dissapointing to see so many sisters make such efforts to stop themselves having kids. Most seemed to be saying they were preparing before marriasge to make sure they dont have kids, why? I just dont understand it. If your poor and simply cannot afford kids, then thats another matter. But the fact that you have access to the net means you aint living in dire poverty. So whats up? Why are kids seen as such a bad thing? why are so many sisters putting of kids for so long? Why do you see kids as such a bad thing? You should be having more kids, not less, let alone trying to prevent babies altogether! OK so it may not have sounded too bad if sisters said they dont wanna get pregnant for a year due to settling down etc, but its not how it came across. It seems the sisters just dont want kids for years! And it leaves me with one question. How much have the kaafirs REALLY influenced the muslimahs? Because from what i've read, forgive me if i sound rude, but if you took away the names, and the salaams, then you sisters really sounded like those feminists and modern "western" women who hate the idea of kids because it would interfere with thier freedom. Kids are the greatest part of family life. To those sisters who prevent havign kids for years, you dont realise just what your missing out on. Not just that, but your also preventing the kids from having active, fit and healthy parents who they can enjoy growing up with. Most muslim parents are overweight and lazy, and just go an sit on the park bench while the kid wonders around with a ball. You should be out on the field chasing your kids, playing ball games with them. You can't do that when your into your 40's. Make the most of your youth. Dont allow these kaafir ideologies to infiltrate your way of thinking. Because as much as you deny it, they heavily influence the Muslimahs of today. Just a thought. Wasalaam. Mujaahid |
| Re: Birth control 2 -IUD |
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| M.F. |
| 05/20/02 at 11:23:51 |
| [slm] I'm not going to answer your question fully right now. I don't have the energy or time at the moment. I just wanted to let you and all other brothers know that when I wrote "Akhawat only" with the subject line I didn't just mean that the responses should only come from women, I meant that I don't want the brothers reading my posting, and many sisters probably posted thinking that it was a conversation between sisters. I know that no matter what I can't prevent anyone off the street from reading it, but I figured the brothers on this board know that "sisters only" means they're not to read or participate in the posting. I posted this publicly so that other brothers who were unclear on it know what we mean when the thread is for sisters only. As for your question, there's nothing wrong with having children and I'm sure you noticed that no one said they never ever wanted to have children. You did make a whole lot of overgeneralizations and assumptions that I won't get into right now. Although children are all the wonderful things you said and a gift from Allah, they're also the end of your life as a couple, and right now, I personally am still enjoying that very much and am very grateful to Allah for it. I don't know what other peoples' reasons are, but you have to know that this isn't a decision that women make on their own. It's a choice that both future parents make together. I even think that it's more the husband's choice than the wife's. Wives may naturally feel more of an inclination and desire to have a baby earlier but it's their husbands who ultimately say, ok, I guess I'm ready now.... I'm sure there's lots of other sisters with other answers and I can't wait to hear from you all :) salams mariam |
| Re: Birth control 2 -IUD |
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| mwishka |
| 05/20/02 at 11:29:55 |
| oh man, mujaahid, what am i even going to say to you?? ok, let's start here: i haven't read anything here discouraging anyone from having children. now, since you're here in hijab (oops - i'm a kuffir, are you even going to listen to me??), let's carry that imagination a little further, and assume, well, assume you have the capacity to bear children. you are, let's see if i remember, um, 22, right? so, now, are you prepared to be always in a state of pregnancy or nursing, um, 15 children constantly from now until you're no longer fertile? (that's estimating you'll be fertile to 55, that you'll become pregnant again as soon as possible after each child, and a little leeway for whatever. and i'm not getting into any of the details about fertility related to sexual activity, but trust me, if you lead this life i've described, you'll have at least 15 children.) and, western women don't hate children (WHERE did you get that notion?). the number of women who choose not to have children at all is extremely small. let's see, what else? do you have only friends of a very narrow age range? i have friends from 17 to 70, would consider anything else to be to my great disadvantage. healthy 60 or 70 year olds can play ball as well as anyone else. i find all the age-related comments (funny, they're only about women) on this board to be just, well, bizarre. we're not living in the 15th century - why would a 40 or 50 year old woman be thought of as old? and, something else, let's see......oh yeah, there's a problem here with the definition of feminism, too. doesn't anybody here know what it is? here's the definition: the belief that every child, woman, man, and all creatures, and the life-sustaining environment in which we live, must be treated with complete and utter respect PERIOD. ( < ok, that's two periods, sorry..) what exactly did you think feminism was? but, as far as you encouraging people to get married, have children, and be happy and healthy, yes, that is one of the best parts of human life available to us - you are absolutely right. and i hope that opportunity comes to you as soon as you're ready for it. (and, oh yeah - i agree with you about cooking, too. don't most children learn to cook from the time they're little? this seems very weird to me that a person could reach adulthood without having taken their turn preparing meals. mabe it's a cultural thing....) i think it's great that you're willing to say what you think in akhwat, but sometimes....well, take it easy on us sisters, mujaahid. we're all just doing the best we can with the lives we have. mwishka |
| Re: Birth control 2 -IUD |
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| jannah |
| 05/20/02 at 11:37:22 |
| [wlm] hmmm there is no sisters-only tag on this thread. The topic of the sisters/brothers only tag came up among the moderators and we decided that when a thread said "Sisters/Brothers Only".. it means that the topic is senstitive or mostly a gender specific topic and to show some haya we mention that it is a specific gender related topic and out of respect the other gender would not enter into discussion on said topic. Now if we really don't want any responses from brothers perhaps we can put "Sisters only/No response from bros please" or something like that. There really isn't any way to prevent a bro/sis from reading a certain topic and I don't think we should. But I think we can have respect for each other's sensitive topics and limit our opinions/interactions when the other gender is discussing them. |
| Re: Birth control 2 -IUD |
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| mujaahid |
| 05/20/02 at 11:50:13 |
| [slm] MF i dont wanna argue with you pointlessly, but i dont feel i done anything in reading that thread. If you personally felt it was so private, you would have used the IM system. Anyway if you dont want to discuss the issue of stopping pregnancy with me, then i'm ok with that, i just wanted to make my point. ;-) |
| Re: Birth control 2 -IUD |
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| mujaahid |
| 05/20/02 at 12:13:13 |
| [slm] "ok, let's start here: i haven't read anything here discouraging anyone from having children." Well then i suggest you read some of the threads, read them, dont just look at the pictures :D (That was a joke)! "(oops - i'm a kuffir, are you even going to listen to me??)" Oh my god! A Kaafir? Does that mean your armed with cruise missles, Cluster bombs and sanctions? "you are, let's see if i remember, um, 22, right?" well yes. "so, now, are you prepared to be always in a state of pregnancy or nursing, um, 15 children constantly from now until you're no longer fertile?" Did i say that? If so, then show me where i said that, or imply it. "and, western women don't hate children (WHERE did you get that notion?)" Well you see i work and many women i have worked with say they do not want children. Its part of the new "morality", or should i say the "latest veriosn of morality" in the west, where children are seen as an obstacle to a long happy career, and an obstacle to an "exciting life of dating, clubbing, drinking". Its all over the papers, in the mags, on TV, Career women saying they dont want kids until well into thier 30's, if ever. "the number of women who choose not to have children at all is extremely small." A LOT higher than it was say 15 years ago. "do you have only friends of a very narrow age range?" No. "i have friends from 17 to 70," I'm so sorry, i dont know what to say ;D "healthy 60 or 70 year olds can play ball as well as anyone else." Come on sister, who you trying to kid! Most oldies I see can barely carry a bag of shopping! "i find all the age-related comments (funny, they're only about women) on this board to be just, well, bizarre." coming from a 91 year old? "we're not living in the 15th century" Well if your a muslim u are :D "why would a 40 or 50 year old woman be thought of as old?" Old as in the sense that they would not be able to play much with thier kids, say chasing them around a park, or pushing them on thier bike for half an hour, or playing football all afternoon with them on a sunny day, in a large green field, surrounded by green trees, with little daisy's growing all around!! "and, something else, let's see......oh yeah, there's a problem here with the definition of feminism, too. doesn't anybody here know what it is?" Dont put spin on it. My definition of feminism is what i see with my own eyes of them. What i see is angry women who hate men, yet cut thier hair like men, wear trousers like man, and well try as hard as they can to be as unwomanly as possible. "here's the definition: the belief that every child, woman, man, and all creatures, and the life-sustaining environment in which we live, must be treated with complete and utter respect PERIOD. ( < ok, that's two periods, sorry..)" Thats NO periods if your on the pill. "what exactly did you think feminism was?" I just told you ;-) "but, as far as you encouraging people to get married, have children, and be happy and healthy, yes, that is one of the best parts of human life available to us - you are absolutely right." I know, as always!! ;D (JOKE) Now, dont wanna sound clever, but you have failed to answer the point i was making, and that being, why do woman want to put of having kids? I aint saying have 15 kids, or have kids non-stop, what i am confused about is why are so many muslimah's not wanting kids for so long? When i get married, inshallah i will have kids in the first year! I want to raise a family, thats my dream and its always has been (and also to kick the butts of a few US solderis). Its what most people would want, to get married and have children, especially the muslims. So i'm kinda confused now when i see sisters putting of babies for so long. And unless thiers some fertility problems, i find it rather sad and unfortunate that so many young muslim women wanna stay childless for so long. I dont wanna judge, but again, i think its the western ideas of slim bodies, fashion etc that is affecting the muslimahs subconciously, and they dont realise it. Many women dont have kids because they dont wanna loos ethier figures, that goes for muslim women to, which is rather sad. Baby: mama, how come you had me when you were so old? Mama: My child, i didnt want a big bottom, thats why. Baby: OK mama. |
| 05/20/02 at 12:14:38 |
| mujaahid |
| Re: Birth control 2 -IUD |
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| nouha |
| 05/20/02 at 12:21:50 |
| [slm] i htink its a personal desion, everybody has there own reasons... money isnt the only factor, u need to be financially ready and more importantly emotionally and physically ready. you have to be wilign to sacrifice your time and energy. motherhood is such a big deal in islam, jannah lies under her feet..., you cant just be poppin out kids left and right. again i think its a personal choice, and of course the mother will be rewarded greatly for her sacrifice but there are many factors to be counted, and its not just money... wasalam nouha:) |
| Re: Birth control 2 -IUD |
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| Kathy |
| 05/20/02 at 12:33:33 |
| [slm] :oGosh... I can't leave this room for a minute! :P Am I the only moderator who get anxious whe they see Mujy posting in their section? [slm] [quote author=M.F. link=board=sis;num=1021899946;start=0#0 date=05/20/02 at 09:05:46]I realized something that startled me: if the IUD prevents a fertilized egg from being implanted and makes it go out, doesn't that mean it basically causes an abortion of some sort? [/quote] I think so. I posted this in the last topic. However some scholors do not think it is because of the first phase, 40 day development phase. |
| Re: Birth control 2 -IUD Sister Discussion Please |
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| mwishka |
| 05/20/02 at 13:05:38 |
| ok, now this board is causing me to be here when i should not be........eek! mujaahid, you just crack me up! i'll respond to your serious points later. MF and kathy, it isn't technically an abortion anyway, since the egg did not implant. (sorry if my first reply was hazy about that specific part of this question.) since the fertilized egg was not ever even in a growth environment, it is inaccurate to technically consider it a pregnancy being carried which failed, so it's neither a miscarriage (natural termination) or an "abortion" (induced termination). < both are pregnancies which were aborted. i think it's an event in a category all its own, since the closest similar event is the passing of an unfertilized egg. must go. oh yeah, can anyone explain why somewhere i read something here about TWO forty day periods before life begins - first as the clot and then a second one?? i'll try to look for it. it was back when i was posting anonymously and that was too-time consuming to ask questions easily of posts that were up. it was in something else. mwishka |
| Re: Birth control 2 -IUD Sister Discussion Please |
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| Maliha |
| 05/20/02 at 13:14:29 |
| [slm] I don't know if this is gonna sound stupid or what...but isn't life breathed into the foetus after the first 40 day period, therefore anything before that is not considered an abortion? Maliha :-) [wlm] |
| Re: Birth control 2 -IUD |
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| Dawn |
| 05/20/02 at 14:50:27 |
| [quote author=mujaahid link=board=sis;num=1021899946;start=0#7 date=05/20/02 at 12:13:13] Thats NO periods if your on the pill. [/quote] :-/ :-/ :-/ WAYYYYY off on this one, bro! (Though personally, I rather wish you weren't. ;) Imagine, no periods, no cramps, no PMS! Ah well, I guess we can all dream ... Back to reality, though.) I am not sure where you got your information, but if anyone fails to get their period while on the pill, the dosage had better be changed and ASAP! Nah, all the pill does is make you much more regular. It can also, for many women, make the period shorter and the flow lighter than it otherwise would be (which for many of us is a REAL blessing). But it will NOT, unless the doctor has made a HUGE mistake on the prescription, stop your periods. Now, onto the real topic at hand. Personally, I don't like IUD's because of the higher health risk attached to them, not because of the fertilized egg thing. It is true, many Christians, even those who approve of other forms of birth control, don't approve of the use of IUD's precisely because of this fertilized egg issue. On the other hand, I read somewhere (can't remember where right now, unfortunately) that better than half of all fertilized eggs never end up as a baby. Some of those are lost as miscarriages, but in most, either the woman never knows she was pregnant, as the embryo implanted poorly, or it didn't implant at all. So, I guess the IUD would be needed less than 50% of the time anyway. Just food for thought. Dawn |
| Re: Birth control 2 -IUD |
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| M.F. |
| 05/21/02 at 06:14:39 |
| [quote author=mujaahid link=board=sis;num=1021899946;start=0#6 date=05/20/02 at 11:50:13] [slm] MF i dont wanna argue with you pointlessly, but i dont feel i done anything in reading that thread. If you personally felt it was so private, you would have used the IM system. Anyway if you dont want to discuss the issue of stopping pregnancy with me, then i'm ok with that, i just wanted to make my point. ;-)[/quote] If I read right you said you'd read my FIRST thread about birth control, where I'd put an Akhawat only tag. It's not that I thought it was so private, but that tag means that the brothers are not welcome to read it, and that out of respect they shouldn't. Now if they choose not to respect my other other sisters wish then it's up to them but then the burden of reading what they weren't mean to read (and therefore seeing what they weren't meant to see which is something that Rasulullah warned against) is on them. If I see a Brothers only tag, I don't even go read that thread, because they've made themselves clear that they don't want a sister reading what they have to say. |
| Re: Birth control 2 -IUD |
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| M.F. |
| 05/21/02 at 06:39:35 |
| [slm] I'm also rather amazed that you think people in their 40s and 50s are only good to sit on a park bench. There are millions of parents in that age group that can play with their kids just fine, and who are actually physically fit! Just because you're starting to have a few gray hairs around your temple doesn't mean that's it for you. What a depressing thought. Rasulullah didn't start his life as a prophet till he was 40! Khalid ibn Al Waleed became Muslim at about 43, and everything he did was after that age!! Muslims and non Muslims tkday are perfectly healthy and perfectly able to throw a baseball and run. Even people in their 60s and 70s!!! :o "oldies" as you called them (I don't know where you got that term, I can't imagine Rasulullah using it) and I'm sure it's an exageration that they can barely lift a shopping bag. There are plenty of grandparents that age that play with their grandkids in the park and yes, can throw a ball (if that's the point). I think your question about why people don't have kids right away was answered. It's NOT the sisters' decision. It's a decision that spouses make together. That means your assumption that it's sisters who don't wanna start having kids as soon as they're married is wrong right off the bat, see? |
| Re: Birth control 2 -IUD Sister Discussion Please |
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| mujaahid |
| 05/21/02 at 06:53:02 |
| [slm] Chill MF!! Calm down [] "I'm also rather amazed that you think people in their 40s and 50s are only good to sit on a park bench." Well i rarely see them really play with the kids!! "There are millions of parents in that age group that can play with their kids just fine" No their are not! Maybe a few, but not millions!! "Muslims and non Muslims today are perfectly healthy and perfectly able to throw a baseball and run." Not at that age, well maybe the non-muslims, but most muslims have big pot bellies. They drive around everywhere and rarely walk, if they cannot wlak, how are they gona run? "I think your question about why people don't have kids right away was answered. It's NOT the sisters' decision. It's a decision that spouses make together." Really? SO a sister saying she's worried about taking the pill when she has not even met her husband is a joint decision now? Look at the ways the sisterts are thinking, even before they meet a possible husband, they are thinking of contraception, meaning they are thinking way ahead about not wanting kids!! It may be a joint decision in the end, but sadly i get the feeling too many sisters are more than happy NOT to have kids early in marriage. Why, i dont know, but money and a small behind are without doubt a part of it. Maybe they feel that if they put on weight early in marriage, their husband will loose his attraction to her and start looking at other women, making her feel unsecure. As for the bro's not wanting kids, well they dont have to do much anyway, so i dont understand why they wouldnt want to have kids! I just think its sad that so many married muslims put of having kids for years. Big butt, small butt, big bank account, small bank account, surely thiers more to life then that! Mujaahid :-) |
| 05/21/02 at 06:56:55 |
| mujaahid |
| Re: Birth control 2 -IUD Sister Discussion Please |
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| eleanor |
| 05/21/02 at 12:00:55 |
| [quote author=mujaahid link=board=sis;num=1021899946;start=15#15 date=05/21/02 at 06:53:02] " Why, i dont know, but money and a small behind are without doubt a part of it. Big butt, small butt, big bank account, small bank account, surely thiers more to life then that! [/quote] I'd be careful with the implications if I were you, Mujaahid. These are your Muslim sisters you are talking about. There are many many couples who get married either before or during college years. They get married because they love each other and want to be together. Did you ever think it might be a good idea for a sister to finish her education before having children. Then in the case of her husband dying young, she would be capable of supporting them and herself, in her chosen profession, instead of having to resort to selling hamburgers for a living, or like in many undeveloped countries, selling her own body, in order to put food on the table. That's just one argument. wasalaam eleanor :-* |
| Re: Birth control 2 -IUD Sister Discussion Please |
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| M.F. |
| 05/21/02 at 12:36:57 |
| [quote author=mujaahid link=board=sis;num=1021899946;start=15#15 date=05/21/02 at 06:53:02] [slm] Big butt, small butt, big bank account, small bank account, surely thiers more to life then that! Mujaahid :-) [/quote] Good grief! What IS that? Is that what you really think of anyone who doesn't want to have children nine months after they get married??? I mean... wow. Why's everything so black and white? Why can't you accept that there are other answers?? You're WRONG Mujaahid. Has that ever occured to you? You're wrong thinking that a Muslim sister who fears Allah and who wants to follow Rasullullah's and his wives' example is putting off having children because she's afraid of poverty. We've all read "Allah will provide for you and them". Or because she's afraid of losing her figure. Is that how shallow you think people are? If sisters tell you there's other reasons, why don't you believe them and see that what you believe is not necessarily the reality of things? You think we're all covering up for ourselves or what? Is it sinful to put off having children for a while? No. So I don't think anything else matters. |
| Re: Birth control 2 -IUD Sister Discussion Please |
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| mujaahid |
| 05/22/02 at 06:10:14 |
| [slm] Eleanor "instead of having to resort to selling hamburgers for a living, or like in many undeveloped countries, selling her own body, in order to put food on the table" Eleanor your going to extremes now. Your basically saying muslim women may not want kids because to bring them up they will have to turn to prostitution? Now you know that is rare, especially in the west. Also, we are not talking about undeveloped countries, but those who live in the west. Also, i dont know any muslimah's who sell hamburgers! MARIAM!!! "Is that what you really think of anyone who doesn't want to have children nine months after they get married" No, and i dont recall saying that. "You're wrong thinking that a Muslim sister who fears Allah and who wants to follow Rasullullah's and his wives' example is putting off having children because she's afraid of poverty" When did i say that was the ONLY reason? Thats one of many reasons, but a commen one. "Is that how shallow you think people are?" I'm only saying what i've heard, from women themselves. "If sisters tell you there's other reasons, why don't you believe them and see that what you believe is not necessarily the reality of things?" If sisters mention other reasons? They rarely say why they dont want kids,. I dont know why, but maybe its because they are embarrased for some reason about the reasons, i.e. they wanna buy a nice big house, or nice car etc etc. I'm not saying that IS the reason, just saying its a possible reason. Obviously education is a good reason, but apart from that, and health problem, or serious poverty, i really dont see why people would put of having kids. Can i ask one favour of you? Can you stop being so emotional? Its rather frightening :'( Mujaahid |
| Re: Birth control 2 -IUD Sister Discussion Please |
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| Barr |
| 05/22/02 at 06:37:30 |
| Assalamu'alaikum :-) One of the most common mistakes that we often make is over generalisations. [quote]I don't know if this is gonna sound stupid or what...but isn't life breathed into the foetus after the first 40 day period, therefore anything before that is not considered an abortion? [/quote] Yes. And that is why, some scholars deemed it permissable to use the IUD. Allahua'lam :-) |
| Re: Birth control 2 -IUD Sister Discussion Please |
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| M.F. |
| 05/22/02 at 07:05:45 |
| I dunno about the permissibility issue. If that were the case then are actual abortions permissible iin the first 40 days, like for example as soon as you miss your period? Mujaahid I don't get emotional, I get angry >:( but I'm over it now :-) |
| Re: Birth control 2 -IUD Sister Discussion Please |
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| mwishka |
| 05/22/02 at 19:25:11 |
| this was not a sisters only topic when mujaahid joined in, it was changed afterwards. which i think is now awkward - perhaps a NEW sisters only thread should have been started at that point.......? mwishka |
| Re: Birth control 2 -IUD Sister Discussion Please |
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| jannah |
| 05/22/02 at 20:57:36 |
| good point mwishka, it's kinda all a mess... ok i'll change this back to a normal thread and perhaps those sisters who would like privacy can start a new thread. btw i'm sure both brothers and sisters are reading all the threads, but please respect others privacy and don't POST to a thread that is specifically for one gender jazakamullahu khairan |
| 05/22/02 at 20:58:45 |
| jannah |
| Re: Birth control 2 -IUD Sister Discussion Please |
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| eleanor |
| 05/23/02 at 08:48:22 |
| [quote author=mujaahid link=board=sis;num=1021899946;start=15#18 date=05/22/02 at 06:10:14] Eleanor your going to extremes now. Your basically saying muslim women may not want kids because to bring them up they will have to turn to prostitution? Now you know that is rare, especially in the west. [/quote] No I am not saying that.. You're totally twisting it. I am saying that women can and are permitted to put off having children until they have finished their education. [quote]Also, i dont know any muslimah's who sell hamburgers![/quote] Really? I know plenty. And not because they have so much fun doing it. Because they are financially forced to work, to take a job, and because they got married young and had children before they had finished school or gone to college, they have no other options open to them... [quote]If sisters mention other reasons? They rarely say why they dont want kids,. I dont know why, but maybe its because they are embarrased for some reason about the reasons, i.e. they wanna buy a nice big house, or nice car etc etc. I'm not saying that IS the reason, just saying its a possible reason. [/quote] Of course it's a possible reason - why not. What about if the husband and wife both work for a few years, save their combined income and buy a nice house where they can start their family. It takes a lot of pressure off than having kids straight away and living in cramped conditions while the husband takes twice as long to save for the deposit on a house. I'm not saying this is necessarily a bad thing, but every couple should look at their own situation and choose what is best for themselves and what they want for their children. And there is nothing wrong with that. wasalaam eleanor :-* |
| Re: Birth control 2 -IUD |
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| mwishka |
| 05/23/02 at 20:43:41 |
| ok, mujaahid, i came back to address your reply. first thing i want to know, though, is how did you manage to find out that i'm 91 !!!? people say i don't look a day over 89..... or, wait, am i 21, and don't look a day over 19 !!? oh, i'm so confused now..... WAA WAA WAA I CAN'T TAKE THIS!!!! I'M USLESS!!! ;) i went back and read the thread in which you said i missed the idea that women here didn't want to have kids. nope. it doesn't say that. and, let's see.. you said this: "and it was so dissapointing to see so many sisters make such efforts to stop themselves having kids. Most seemed to be saying they were preparing before marriasge to make sure they dont have kids, why?" and this: "OK so it may not have sounded too bad if sisters said they dont wanna get pregnant for a year due to settling down etc, but its not how it came across. It seems the sisters just dont want kids for years!" mujaahid, most of what i've read here indicates that women are trying to be responsible toward their marriage and their husbands and themselves. it has to do with responsiblity, not with hating children. and i didn't read anything anywhere indicating it had to do with a desire NOT to have children, either. what you make me wonder is, why does this upset you so much? is it....because you don't have children, and want to be married already and have them, but haven't been able to do so? is it because you think the ummah is diminishing in number? it is not, i'm sure you're aware of that. i kind of really think maybe you're afraid that when you find the woman you want to marry you're fearful that she will be just right for you, and then she will say "i don't want children for a while". don't worry! look for the right woman, but do it with peace inside yourself, don't do it in fear or anxiety. there are lots of views on when to have children, and you don't need to feel concerned about the choice others make about having them. why not instead be happy that they're happy in their marriages, and that they're compatible with their spouses? don't let these choices affect your attitude toward people. we each have to make our own choices, and there're many ways to go about starting and having a family. i said it before - the sisters here, and everywhere, as well as the brothers, i'm sure, are just doing the best they can in their lives. and i've decided i just don't even want to get into how you've looked around you and defined things you see that you don't like as feminism - that's as silly as someone looking around as deciding to define things they see that they don't like as islam, without ever understanding what it really is. AND i'm not going to get into that i could be a kaafir and also have cruise missiles and cluster bombs - um, mujaahid, i don't think the people you're referring to with those weapons fall into the category kuffar - hmmm....unless that definition is malleable, which i don't believe it is... AND finally i'm not going to get into who might be writing anything about whether or not women are worried about how they look from one who is worried about how they look. (and i, certainly, would never discount the role the chemistry of physical attraction plays in who we want to marry or have children with - i'm just reminding you to remember what you've said here about the importance of women's looks to a man seeking a wife....) mwishka |
| Re: Birth control 2 -IUD |
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| mujaahid |
| 05/25/02 at 11:36:13 |
| Salaam Mwishka "mujaahid, most of what i've read here indicates that women are trying to be responsible toward their marriage and their husbands and themselves." Responsible under what circumstance? To further thier "careers"? "it has to do with responsiblity, not with hating children." Hate is a strong word. Dislike would be more appropriate, dislike of having kids while still young. "and i didn't read anything anywhere indicating it had to do with a desire NOT to have children, either." And i dont remeber saying they did NOT want children! I said many put kids off for years, and by the time they get to their late 30's, they wanna start a family, and feel its too late. I know this from someone i used to work with. "what you make me wonder is, why does this upset you so much?" It dont upset me much, i just find it sad that women dont wanna have kids and see them as a burden when in fact they are the greatest thing that can happen to anyone. "is it....because you don't have children, and want to be married already and have them, but haven't been able to do so?" No, because i know what i want, its nothing to do with me. I have 2 beautiful babies neices and a beauty little baby nephew, and its so much fun having them running around the house all day! I can't understand why people dont want such a happy atmosphere in thier lives. A life without babies is a dull one. "is it because you think the ummah is diminishing in number? it is not, i'm sure you're aware of that." Yes, i do know that, the reverse is opposite. "i kind of really think maybe you're afraid that when you find the woman you want to marry you're fearful that she will be just right for you, and then she will say "i don't want children for a while"." Well then she wont be the right one for me ;) " the sisters here, and everywhere, as well as the brothers, i'm sure, are just doing the best they can in their lives. " I dont agree, too many are lazy, and can't be othered to make the effort to do more!! They get comfortable living a certain lifestyle, even though they prefer other things to do, because they are comfortable, they get into a lazy mentality and dont make the effort, until one day they have enough, and say to themselves: "right, now i'm gona sort myself out and pull myself together" and thats usually when thier in thier late 30's and all thier baby making equipment is old and rusty. "AND finally i'm not going to get into who might be writing anything about whether or not women are worried about how they look from one who is worried about how they look." So your saying women dont really care how they look? "(and i, certainly, would never discount the role the chemistry of physical attraction plays in who we want to marry or have children with - i'm just reminding you to remember what you've said here about the importance of women's looks to a man seeking a wife....)" Listen young lady, any man who tells you a womans looks dont matter, 95% of the time he is lying. If you had two women the same, both same height, both really islaamic, really decent, had shy personalities, but one was a size ten and beautiful, and the other a size 18 and overweight, i guarantee you, the brother will choose the thin one! Looks are not everything, but they matter. It shouldnt be the most important thing, but it IS an important aspect of who we choose to marry! And you know it is ;-) Wasalaam Mujaahid JUNE 8th, TYSON vs LEWIS, the greatest fight of our generation. |
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| mwishka |
| 05/25/02 at 11:56:22 |
| (ok, this is my last coment in here, since this was, um, originally a discussion about birth control, and now we've kind of subverted it....) mujaahid, did you read what i wrote? i do NOT discount the role of physical chemistry in choosing spouses. that means i consider it to be an important factor. and, yes, it is to me, too - whether i should be admitting that or not ;) - but i think that attraction, as has been said here oh so many times, is very closely linked to attraction to someone's character. i don't think you can separate the two. i know i can't. mwishka |
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| Barr |
| 05/29/02 at 08:14:13 |
| Bismillah Assalamu'alaikum :-) My dear brother, [quote]So whats up? Why are kids seen as such a bad thing? why are so many sisters putting of kids for so long? Why do you see kids as such a bad thing? You should be having more kids, not less, let alone trying to prevent babies altogether! OK so it may not have sounded too bad if sisters said they dont wanna get pregnant for a year due to settling down etc, but its not how it came across. It seems the sisters just dont want kids for years![/quote] Akhi, I have no idea where you get these ideas from - and as such...making blanket statements on sisters and their perception on children. Allahua'lam. I watched "60 Minutes" a few weeks ago, on the impact of the feminist movement and the perception of having children by women. And I wouldn't be surprised if there are some Muslim women who subscribe to such sentiments. Allahua'lam. However, the reason why some people delay in having children may not be due to whatever reason you suggested in you posts above. I think the sisters have listed a few, of which I am not going to repeat. However, to sum it up, being married and being parents puts the onus and responsibility on us to have a planned family, rather than keeping on having children, without considering the resources, capabilities and other factors that will effect the family. Family planning is more than just contraceptives but the proper attitude towards contraceptives and building the family. I would agree that the Prophet encourages having more children. However, the Prophet also emphasizes on the quality of children that we will have rather than just sheer numbers. [i]"Almost the entire world will feast (be a guest) over you just as people crowd over a plate of dish. A companion asked,'Is that because we are small in number, O Rasulullah?' The Messenger reply,' No, on the contrary, there are many of you, but you are like mere bubble, swept by the tide. Allah will mark out from your enemy a fear for you and implant in you al-wahn'. The companion asked what is al-wahn, and the Messenger repliey,'Love for this world and a fear of death'.[/i] Hence, it is finding the balance for parents to aspire towards having children that will be the strength of the ummah both in numbers and quality. If this is the basis of why couples decide on delaying children or spacing out children for whatever their reasons may be, who are we to judge their decisions? And even if sisters do delay having children because they want to maintain an hourglass figure and go up the corporate ladder, what then, is our role to help them understand Islam further and the hikmah of having saleh and muslih children? [quote]When i get married, inshallah i will have kids in the first year![/quote] Good to hear that, mashaALlah. And as far as I know, most of the sisters whom I know, particularly, from M'sia and S'pore, have their first child within the first year of their marriage. So.. I guess, there are a lot of sisters who don't fit in your hypothesis? Take care, akhi :) Wassalam |
| 06/01/02 at 10:28:54 |
| Barr |
| Re: Birth control 2 -IUD |
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| Kathy |
| 05/29/02 at 09:37:59 |
| [slm] [i](Time for Momma to step up to the plate)[/i] After having on line communications with some of the brothers and sisters about their posts on this topic, I have realized that their intentions are being misconstrued. All in all, most of the points are valid from all points of view. Sure- the husband and wife have a right to choose when to start a family- how big and all their details. Of course, remembering that Allah swt is the best of planners. [i]“And no moving (living) creature is there on earth but its provision is due from Allaah” Hood 11:6 [/i] You all may be wondering why I have "let" Mujahiid continue on. From my personal experience there are many areas, in hindsight, that I think he is giving some good advice. When I was young in my early twenties- I knew I had plenty of time to have kids. I wan't married yet- but knew I had plent of time and wasn't in any particular rush. I wanted to finish my education, start my career and get settled with a home in a good location for my children's education before beginning a family. Meanwhile my friends began their families. At age 26- I was mostly done with school and began a career. I did not marry until 28... so even with the best of circumstances- there wouldn't be a child until I hit my thirties. Which scientifically- the eggs begin to decay. Allah who allum- I never concieved. Not until 7 years later! After the birth of my son- I never concieved again. Old eggs? possibly- at age 37. Sure we have all heard the stories about women giving birth in their 40's. The reason we hear about it- is because it is the exception- not the rule! My mistake was thinking that I did not have enough money, the car, the home, the timing was not right. I had relocated five times in five years. What i failed to realize that the child's home is in their mother's arms- not in a city- particularly in the pre-K years. When I did have Ali- we were dirt poor, no home and Al-humdullillah in the long run it did not matter. He never went hungry and was always clothed- and mashaAllah- what a blessing he is. A feeling of sadness envelopes me when I think that I wasted so much time preparing to have a baby- that my time has apparently come and gone to have more. I wish I had someone like Mujy back then telling me that all that other stuff is not so important. I am not regretting or what ifing- i just look back and think how stupid my decisions regarding having kids was- and the consequences. I look at my friends who put their trust in Allah and have alot of kids running around the house. I asked them if they wish they had waited like I did- not one did. The rewards from and of the children out weighed any concerns they had. Allah swt made things easy for them (they see in retrospect) and He swt provided for their children. I was re- reading some of the posts- and sure they got a little carried away and used some examples that took away from the messages. Mujy thought the Sisters saw having kids as a bad thing. It was a miscommunication. Sisters see having families as a huge responsibility- one they are not sure if they can handle. What they need to know- is that they are not in it alone. The posts got carried away with the kaffir name calling, issues of age vs agility, issues of femminism- which I suggest you look up the meaning, the shape of a woman and her concerns, and hamburger making. I would like to say all of these issues are irrelevant- but everyone has different concerns. It is like when Ali and i get into a disagreement. he starts to throw in all sorts of stuff- it is my responsibility, as his mom, to sort thru what he is saying and get down to the point of the conversation. Sometimes I have to take a deep breath, consider his age and life experiences, and be patient. If I argued over all the little stupid remarks he adds to his arguement- we would never get to the crutch of the problem. The amazing thing is many times he is right. I just needed to watch his reasoning unfold. This thread is kind of like this. Both sides have valid points- but it got caught up in the details. In the end- neither side understood each other. After talking to one sister about BC and her dismay over Mujy's comments, her comment was... 'I understand now- I wish you had explained it.' As I have said many times... so many of you are brilliant and you are our next generation. This board is a great place to cultivate your skills in communicating. If you said something a bit arrogently- humble yourself and admit it. Speak to each other as if you are face to face- keeping in mind that the hot spots will only take away what you are trying to convey. It is better not even to bring them up. Teach don't lecture. Have your audience come to the right conclusion- as if it was their idea. Don't say you, you, you, say we. This is not supposed to be a debate- but a sharing of experiences. |
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| Barr |
| 06/20/02 at 01:09:33 |
| Assalamu'alaikum :-) For those who are interested, I came across one of the better sites for IUD. Very comprehensive and descriptive... plus it also include diagrams. Click here=> [url=http://www.healthsqr.com/fgwh/wh1ch20.htm]IUD[/url] Allahua'lam :-) |
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| Anonymous |
| 07/23/02 at 13:51:38 |
| Assalam Alaikum Sisters, I am not sure if this topic has been discussed previously, if it has, please forgive me. :) I wanted to know if it lawful in Islam to use methods of birth control? |
| Re: Birth control 2 -IUD |
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| Fatimah |
| 07/23/02 at 16:42:19 |
| salam alaikum Question: What is the shar’i ruling on using the coil (IUD – intrauterine device) as a means of preventing pregnancy, knowing that this means does not prevent fertilization of the egg, but it prevents the embryo from attaching itself to the wall of the uterus? May Allaah reward you with good. Answer: Praise be to Allaah. Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: What the Muslims should do is to have as many children as they can, because this is the command issued by the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) when he said, “Marry the one who is loving and fertile, for I will be proud of your great numbers.” Because increasing the number of children increases the size of the ummah, and being of great numbers is a source of pride, as Allaah said, reminding the Children of Israel of that (interpretation of the meaning): “And We helped you with wealth and children and made you more numerous in man‑power” [al-Israa’ 17:6] And Shu’ayb said to his people: “ ‘And remember when you were but few, and He multiplied you’” [al-A’raaf 7:86 – interpretation of the meaning] No one would deny that if the ummah is great in number this will lend it pride and strength. This is contrary to what is imagined by those who think evil thoughts, that the large numbers of the ummah is the cause of its poverty and hunger. If the ummah increases in number and relies on Allaah, and believes in His promise, in the aayah “And no moving (living) creature is there on earth but its provision is due from Allaah” [Hood 11:6 – interpretation of the meaning], then Allaah will make things easy for them and will grant them sufficient means from His Bounty. On this basis, the answer to the question is as follows: A woman should not use birth control pills unless the following two conditions are met: (1) She should have a reason for that such as being sick and unable to bear a pregnancy every year, or being physically weak, or having other reasons why getting pregnant every year would be harmful for her. (2) Her husband should give his permission, because the husband has the right to have children. This must also be done in consultation with a doctor, to find out whether taking these pills will be harmful to her or not. If these two conditions are met, then it is OK for her to use these pills, but that should not be on a permanent basis, i.e., she should not use the type of birth control pills that prevent pregnancy permanently, because this is preventing progeny. (Fataawa al-Mar’ah al-Muslimah, 2/657, 658) Concerning the harms caused by contraception, the Shaykh (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: Birth control pills: I have heard from a number of sources that doctors say they are harmful. Even if we do not know this from the doctors, we know it from ourselves, because preventing something natural that Allaah has created and decreed for the daughters of Adam is undoubtedly harmful. Allaah is Wise, and He has only created this blood which flows at certain times for a reason. If we prevent it with these medicines, that is harmful without a doubt. But I have heard that the matter is worse than we imagine, that they may be a means of damaging the womb, and a means of causing nervous disorders. This is something we must beware of. (Liqaa’ al-Baab al-Maftooh, question no. 1147) Shaykh ‘Abd al-‘Azeez ibn Baaz (may Allaah have mercy on him) was asked: What is the ruling on removing the uterus in order to avoid having children for medical reasons which are either present, or may occur in the future and have been predicted by medical and scientific means? He answered: if that is necessary, then it is OK, otherwise it should not be done, because the Lawgiver urges us to have children and promotes that in order to increase the size of the ummah. But if there is a necessary reason then it is OK, just as it is permissible to use means of contraception for a limited time for a legitimate shar’i reason. (9/434) What is said concerning the birth control pill may also be said concerning the coil. It has been definitely proven by the doctors that this contraceptive method causes harm, especially when it is used continually. It is known that the woman who has a coil inserted has an increased flow of menstrual blood, and her period may come twice a month, which causes an iron deficiency in her body. Iron is one of the important minerals which the body needs. Some women may become anaemic when they use the coil and it makes their periods longer, resulting in the woman losing a large amount of blood and thus a large amount of the iron stored in the body. It has also been proven that many women suffer infections of the uterus as a result of using the coil. Despite all this, a woman may become pregnant with the coil in place, as has happened to a number of women. We ask Allaah to keep us safe and sound. And Allaah knows best. Islam Q&A Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid (www.islam-qa.com) With regard to ‘azl (coitus interruptus), or withdrawing during intercourse, the correct scholarly view is that there is nothing wrong with it, because of the hadeeth of Jaabir (may Allaah be pleased with him): “We used to practise ‘azl at the time when the Qur’aan was being revealed” – i.e., at the time of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). If that action had been haraam, the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) would have forbidden it. But the scholars say that one should not engage in ‘azl with a free woman except with her permission, because she has the right to have children. Moreover, withdrawing without her permission diminishes her pleasure, because the woman’s pleasure can only be completed after ejaculation. So not asking her permission causes her to lose out on pleasure and on the possibility of having children. Hence we state the condition that this may only be done with her permission. From Fataawa al-Shaykh Muhammad ibn ‘Uthaymeen. |
| NS |
| 07/23/02 at 16:43:29 |
| Fatimah |
| Re: Birth control 2 -IUD |
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| nabeela |
| 07/24/02 at 08:02:34 |
| asalaamu alaikum, just a correction. its 4 months, or 120 days after conception that the soul is breathed into the foetus, not 40 days. taken from islam-qa.com: Allaah sends the angel to breathe the soul into the foetus as was reported by ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Mas’ood, who said: “The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), who is the most truthful (of human beings) and his being truthful (is a fact) told us: ‘The constituents of one of you is gathered in his mother’s womb for forty days, then it becomes a clot of blood within another period of forty days. Then it becomes a lump of flesh, and forty days later, Allaah sends His angel to it to breathe into it the soul. The angel comes with instructions concerning four things, so the angel writes down his livelihood, his death, his deeds and whether he will doomed or blessed.” (Reported by Muslim, 1528). wa alaikum asalaam |
| NS |
| 07/24/02 at 08:16:43 |
| nabeela |
| Re: Birth control 2 -IUD |
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| theOriginal |
| 07/24/02 at 11:32:31 |
| [slm] [quote]taken from islam-qa.com: Allaah sends the angel to breathe the soul into the foetus as was reported by ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Mas’ood, who said: “The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), who is the most truthful (of human beings) and his being truthful (is a fact) told us: ‘The constituents of one of you is gathered in his mother’s womb for forty days, then it becomes a clot of blood within another period of forty days. Then it becomes a lump of flesh, and forty days later, Allaah sends His angel to it to breathe into it the soul. The angel comes with instructions concerning four things, so the angel writes down his livelihood, his death, his deeds and whether he will doomed or blessed.” (Reported by Muslim, 1528). [/quote] ummm what about this? "When forty-two nights have passed over the drop (nutfah), Allah sends an angel to it, who shapes it and makes its ears, eyes, skin, flesh and bones. Then he says, “O Lord, is it male or female?” and your Lord decides what he wishes. (Muslim)." Not to bring up an entirely different point, and to be bickering incessantly, because that is what most of this thread seemed to do anyway, but the fetus is recognized wayyyyy before the 120-day period. And I am sure you did not infer that it is okay to abort a baby until the 120-day timeframe (Na'uzubillah), but I am curious to know why that was brought up while discussing birth control? As for the whole birth control thing, here's a story that is gruesome, but interesting nonetheless: A couple of summers ago I worked at a hospital in the middle of nowhere in Sub-Saharan Africa. I was rushed to emergency to witness (yes, WITNESS is the correct word, because I am not in the medical profession.) a young lady's operation. She was approximately 22 years of age, pregnant with her 6th child. (MashaAllah she had adorable children.) Anyway, something (i'm not sure WHAT) went wrong, and her (excuse me for being so explicit) "uterus exploded" (according to the surgeon operating on her.) The doctors informed me that her husband was a "staunch muslim" (they said that with disgust on their faces), and that he did not believe in birth control. However, due to the succession of one pregnancy after another, the girl's body could not handle it. They removed her uterus. (If I was tellling this story to friends, I would continue to add that I don't cook chicken because the uterus looked like a raw chicken. :o I would further say, that I nearly fainted because I thought the baby was still in the uterus, and hadn't been pulled out, because her uterus was really bloated. But Alhumdulillah, the baby is still alive, and I just received a greeting card from the family a few months ago. :) Pardon me, maybe this was inappropriate.) The point is she as well as her baby could have died. And the point is that we have been given brains for a reason. Let's use them inshaAllah. Please please don't take offence to my post. Just sharing. Peace. SF. |
| Re: Birth control 2 -IUD |
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| nabeela |
| 07/24/02 at 17:02:13 |
| asalaamu alaikum, the reason i posted that was because i read in a previous reply someone saying the soul is breathed into the foetus at 40 days. therefore i saw something i believe to be incorrect and wanted to correct it. i never said abortion is alright at 4 months let alone at 1 week, i was merely stating when the soul is breathed in. and i never said the foetus is not recognized, it just does not have a soul until then. i apologize if i am wrong, but i believe 120 days is correct. i apologize if that sounds rude, its not meant to be. wa alaikum asalaam |
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