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Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| Marriage contract?? |
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| Shahida |
| 05/22/02 at 07:55:48 |
| [slm] Several sisters have posted about getting married soon. That brought to mind something I have been thinking about, namely the marriage contract. What do you plan on putting into the contract/ what have you already put in the contract (for our married sisters) ? Wasalam Shahida :-) |
| Re: Marriage contract?? |
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| M.F. |
| 05/22/02 at 08:11:26 |
| Assalamu alaikum, The only thing I put in my marriage contract was that if my husband ever wanted to get a second wife (though he's not the type) I'd be free to go. I would advise that especially if your future husband [i]is[/i] the type. There are sisters who put in a condition that they be allowed to study. |
| Re: Marriage contract?? |
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| Kathy |
| 05/22/02 at 08:46:22 |
| [slm] [i]Kathy takes a deep breath and can't believe that she is going to write this...[/i] Contracts are just plain useless... You can't enforce them, there isn't an Islamic court to force them and you can't "make" a man do anything. There are so many loop holes that it is just a waste of time. or example- if a woman writes that her husband can't take another wife- there are scholors that will say it is allowed to say that , but the probability of enforcing it is nill. If you write in the contract that you want a home, or the right to go visit your sister for a month back home- and your husband says no 10 years into the marriage- scholors will say it is better to obey your husband and be patient.... I think in theroy contracts are great- in reality- worthless (other than to let the Brother know what your expectations are) [i]Kathy ducks and runs[/i] |
| 05/22/02 at 11:25:15 |
| Kathy |
| Re: Marriage contract?? |
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| hayal |
| 05/22/02 at 09:08:46 |
| Waalaikum salam well great! >:( So what are the contracts for then? To keep the wife quiet?? >:( :P :o ;) salamu alaikum sis Hayal :-) Ps: Shahida do we know each other? I am the sis from Germany. My number has changed. Are you getting married??? ;D |
| Re: Marriage contract?? |
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| Aliya |
| 05/22/02 at 09:46:54 |
| I never have thought about putting something in the marriage contract. ??? I think I won't put anything in there...and expect my husband to do the same. For me: developing mutual understanding 'after the marriage' will be far more important! :) Kathy: I think u are making a good point there...worth to think about ;) Aliya |
| 05/22/02 at 09:48:50 |
| Aliya |
| Re: Marriage contract?? |
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| M.F. |
| 05/22/02 at 11:00:16 |
| Asalamu alaikum I guess you can't enforce the marriage contract unless you do it in a court of law in the west, or if the courts in the "east" are really with you. However, a man knowing that in addition to the two witnesses who witness the signing, Allah is also witnessing, will know better than to try to get away with breaking the contract. |
| Re: Marriage contract?? |
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| Maliha |
| 05/22/02 at 11:32:26 |
| [slm] Is wanting to put something in a contract, such as education, etc etc... even after it was discussed and agreed on verbally a "bad" way to start off a marriage? I mean are you telling the husband that you don't trust him? I asked my mom about the contract and she "tsked tsked" it. ::) Maliha :-) [wlm] |
| 05/22/02 at 11:32:51 |
| Maliha |
| Re: Marriage contract?? |
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| se7en |
| 05/23/02 at 14:52:55 |
| as salaamu alaykum wa rahmatAllah, true, the marriage contract cannot be *imposed* upon your husband, ie be used to control what he does or does not do.. but I don't think that's the purpose of a marriage contract. It's purpose is to delineate what both the man and woman are expecting from their spouse. And, depending upon your contract and its stipulations, it grants you as a woman the right to a divorce if certain things occur that you are not willing/able to tolerate - abuse, infidelity, taking on another wife without your consent, etc. If these things are not delineated in the contract, you are still *bound* to your marriage Islamically, until your husband allows a divorce or until you bring it to an Islamic authority and one is granted to you. Another misconception ppl have is that if in your contract you ask for the right to a divorce under certain circumstances, when those circumstances do occur you *must* get a divorce. This is not true.. at that time you have the right to a divorce, but you are not compelled to do so. In terms of enforcing your contract in a court in the west, you can do so if you get your contract notorized. will write more later inshaAllah :) wasalaam |
| 05/24/02 at 20:14:18 |
| se7en |
| Re: Marriage contract?? |
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| BroHanif |
| 05/23/02 at 17:05:52 |
| [slm], The contract is small goes along the lines of till death do us apart...trust and love each other and the last part of the contract...insha-allah be together in jannah. I know it sounds soppy but we felt that we didn't need more than that. salaams Hanif |
| Re: Marriage contract?? |
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| Shahida |
| 05/24/02 at 05:23:52 |
| [slm] Kathy, I *know* nobody can force the man/woman to stick by what they have stipulated in the contract. BUT as Se7en has rightly said, I do not think that that is the purpose of the contract in the first place. It is about expectations, and having a sense of what is important to the other person and how they envisage the future to be, what they will tolerate and what not...at least thats how I see it. Maliha, i think your mom "tsk tsking" is quite normal...BUT, and it is a very BIG BUT :o ...Islamically I think it is just PROPER to have everything on paper, witnessed, and legalised so that there are no come-backs later on. It's not about "trusting" or not "trusting" the person at that time, it is just legal, and to me very important to have things in writing. I know of a story, where a girl discussed furthering her education after marriage with her husband b4 they actually got married. He had no problems with it, so she thought it would be superfluous (sp?) to add that and have it in writing. 2 years after marriage, she got an excellent opportunity to study, it was a scholarship, she could do it from home, and it would not have affected her home duties. She told him about it and he denied ever having said anything about her being allowed to study after marriage. Conveniently *forgot* as I say...they managed to sort it out after she brought her family and he his, but it was really an unnecessary hassle, and involved people that should not have so intimately involved in their relationship in the first place. Hayal, I still think that marriage contracts have a place, as Allah gave us the right! And if a man can renegade on promises he made in order to be able to marry you, then Allah help him, because that is like marrying you on a foundation of lies and under false pretexts...which is just terrible. (btw sis, I figure we knw each other, I will IM you and make sure...have been sending *you* sms's...you probably didnt get them though. hehe ;) not planning of getting married anytime soon, maybe next week:) hehe) ok, thats all from me Wasalam Shahida :-) |
| Re: Marriage contract?? |
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| se7en |
| 05/24/02 at 06:50:36 |
| as salaamu alaykum, I agree with sister shahida :) I know some brothers that would be *very* offended by a request to sign a contract. I don't really understand why.. maybe the brothers out there can explain this a bit more? This is how I see it: you and this sister have, most likely, already agreed on certain issues that will come up in your marriage. So why then is it such an offense to put these things to paper? What harm can come from agreeing to put on paper what you have already agreed to in words? I think a hesitation here stems from either of two things - not wanting to live by your word, or by considering the request a sign of lack of trust. In the first instance I think problems will inevitably arise, because she has expectations of you that you have no intention of fulfilling. If you hesitate because of the second reason, know that it's only natural for her to be apprehensive. It's not *you* as an individual she mistrusts, but the unknown of the future, in which anything Allah wills can happen, and in which circumstances can radically change a person. Put yourself in her place, and think about what you would be experiencing emotionally. Marriage is a very scary thing :o Knowing all this.. is signing a contract really so difficult to do, if for no other reason than to ease the anxiety of this woman you care so much about? To calm her fears, and allow her to enter the marriage secure in the knowledge that you will be just in your treatment of her, and strive to do right by her? She chose you as her ameer.. I can't think of a more beautiful way to start off your imaarah than by showing rahma to her.. by easing her feelings of agitation and fear, showing her that you are sensitive to her wants, her dreams for the future. And doing this shows her that she has chosen wisely - that she has chosen a man that is striving to be sensitive to the wants and needs of those under his care, and will constantly struggle to do right by them and treat them well, in seeking to live his life in a way that is pleasing to Allah. just some things to think about :) wAllahu a'lam. wasalaamu alaykum wa rahmatAllah :-) |
| 05/24/02 at 20:10:16 |
| se7en |
| Re: Marriage contract?? |
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| Noor |
| 05/25/02 at 03:23:03 |
| [slm] The importance of a muslim's keeping true to his word cannot be emphasized enough. The Quran has stressed in several places that one of the hallmarks of a mu'min is that he upholds his promise. I heard a hadith that was something like: Uphold your promises and honour your contracts and the one most deserving of baing upheld is the one by which you have made your wives legal on you i.e. the nikah aggreement. So even if technically speaking the marriage contract cannot be challenged in a court of law here, it will be reckoned by the Judge of judges and that thought alone is enough to make a God fearing muslim not take the matter lightly. wassalam :-) |
| Re: Marriage contract?? |
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| Kathy |
| 05/25/02 at 10:18:01 |
| [slm] This reply is just to show that I agree the contract is valuable, this was my final line in the original post: [quote]I think in theroy contracts are great- in reality- worthless (other than [u]to let the Brother know what your expectations are[/u]) [/quote] Shahida and se7en are right in their posts. My aim was to add some reality to the situation, as many of the young sisters getting married may put "all thier eggs in one basket." Because as for many stories of men"forgetting" that they agreed to a contractual point, there are way too many who just don't honor it. The problem isn't with the honorable brothers.... |
| Re: Marriage contract?? |
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| Mentallect |
| 05/26/02 at 23:51:54 |
| im totally convinced im a horrible muslim wife. because this wouldnt even be an issue for me, contract or not. im not going to keep myself in a situation that hinders me and will potentially turn me into a psychotic wife anyway. its like damned if i do, damned if i dont. i may as well be comfortable with my choice anyway. |
| Re: Marriage contract?? |
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| jaj |
| 05/27/02 at 01:48:50 |
| is it correct for me to understand by some things people have written that a contract is not even necessary for marriage? correct me if i'm wrong, but that's what it sounds like |
| Re: Marriage contract?? |
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| jannah |
| 05/27/02 at 01:55:27 |
| a contract is required for marriage. i think the discussion is over putting alot of "conditions" in the contract. |
| Re: Marriage contract?? |
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| Kathy |
| 05/27/02 at 09:15:16 |
| [slm] Jannah is right a contract is a condition of marriage. The [u]only conditions[/u] of the contract is (and it does not have to be written- [u]it can be verbal[/u]): The couple are legaly eligable to marry according to Islamic law, the girl or wali accepts the proposal and the groom accepts it also and two witnesses have to be there. |
| Re: Marriage contract?? |
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| The_Naeem |
| 05/29/02 at 17:35:17 |
| Salaams, Well I stumbled across this, and your probably saying "why is he in the Akhwat Cafe anyway". Well my two cents. Ok personally my issue is when drafting these contracts, putting in some stipulations that you feel need to be in there great. But I think some guys take issue when the sister they intend to marry hears of some horror story of some tyranical man who did this that and the other, and now because of hearing that, she put all these things in the contract. In a way it seems that you think that your guy is going to do that same thing, where is the trust? And I think the other thing about up holding a contract. Why would you marry someone who is not of their word, and not only that, won't take council from Islamic authourities? There must be some real winners out there sister are running into. All I can say sisters, before you commit, do your homework, talk to everybody this guy knows, and everybody who knows them. There really isn't any " and then all of a sudden he changed", dude was fronting from jump. Unless like he fell and hit his head. |
| 05/29/02 at 17:36:44 |
| The_Naeem |
| Re: Marriage contract?? |
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| jannah |
| 05/30/02 at 02:01:49 |
| [wlm] The thing is.. if he isn't going to do any of those things then why is he so upset about putting them in the contract? If it makes her feel better and is a protection for her why doesn't he do it? Maybe it's like a pride thing? or maybe just that trust thing.. he wants her to trust him no matter what? |
| Re: Marriage contract?? |
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| The_Naeem |
| 05/30/02 at 15:55:53 |
| Salaams, I am gonna try my best to not make it on the most hated brothers on the Madinat Board list but he we go. "if he isn't going to do any of those things then why is he so upset about putting them in the contract? " Well to me, I don't want to be convicted for someone elses crimes. Most guys will just go ahead and sign with some protest, but still sign. But this like escape clause, I dunno. If you put everything in a contract that someone said would put them at ease how far will that rope stretch? What are the limits on that? If you some how lose all your cash I get to leave, I you all of a sudden become so unattractive I can't stand it I can leave, If your not the Highly Islamic Guy\Girl I thought you were I get to leave. I dunno, I like what my cousin's husband did. Her dad wanted to put a million different things there because of all the stories he heard, and the brother was like no, the only stipulation other than the mahr that will be in the contract is that we will agree to work out our problems, arguments, disagreements, using Quran and Sunnah. And they signed on that. I thought that was great, and that should cover it. I'm sorry, it goes back to the guy. A guy who is gonna be a polygamist knows it from jump, he knows he wants more than one wife. If you marry this guy HE NEEDS THAT IN THE CONTRACT! But for a guy who isn't into it, he doesn't just walk pass some woman and then a week later he comes home and tells his wife I'm getting married next week. Your dealing with a totally different set of out comes. It all goes back to the person you marry, choose wisely and do you homework. But in the end, it's all up to Allah, it could all start out rough and be really awesome in the end, it could be a story book romance in the begining and end in a steven king novel. So did I make the most hated list? |
| Re: Marriage contract?? |
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| Abu_Hamza |
| 05/30/02 at 16:47:27 |
| [slm] :) Naeem, we (the brothers) are glad to have you on the board :) Have a [] on me bro, and preach on! |
| Re: Marriage contract?? |
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| salik |
| 05/30/02 at 18:38:24 |
| [slm] Excuse me for being here, no I haven't put on the hijab ;D. When I signed my marriage contract which was just over a year back, I did not know we could put conditions other than how much mahr is and how it's going to be paid. Putting things on contract is fine, but if it ever happens that the couple is going to refer to contract in an argument then I think there is something seriously wrong between them, should they really be together after that? I guess any sane educated man would not break his promise even given verbally especially to his wife. I guess the most common situation is where a man would have a change of mind on her education. Well so many times the thought had crossed my mind to ask my wife to stop her studies and come join me here (she is studing in a university few continents away ;) ), but then I was the one who encouraged her to continue her studies in first place when her parents were not too keen on continuing her studies there. Insh Allah she'll be here soon in 2 months. Hmm.. that's too much info about me. |
| Re: Marriage contract?? |
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| jannah |
| 06/01/02 at 02:46:32 |
| [wlm] ok naeem interesting how after your post the whole board broke // jk ;) so i understand the points about not being able to list everything that could happen in there and all, but there could be some simple things.. like i would like to finish my education.. i would like to go overseas to study.. i'd like to remain monogamous etc People usually talk this stuff out but to write it down in the contract, it's kind of psychological.. if it's there the guy can't think 'oh she's just saying that now.. she'll change (or i'll get her to change) after marriage.' and just like any contract the conditions can change after marriage if they both agree... |
| Re: Marriage contract?? |
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| mwishka |
| 06/01/02 at 08:03:09 |
| brother salik, hijab is not required here.....i.e., you are quite welcome to participate, as i understand things here..... my presence here may be less appropriate than yours, however... ;) but i do have some comments, and maybe questions... brother naeem, no one is hated here for expressing their opinions in good faith. i think that the way bro naeem's cousin and her husband set their personal guidelines for themselves in their marriage makes sense, and shows the type of commitment they're making not only to each other but to their marriage and family as gifts from god. i can understand someone feeling they don't want to put anything in such a contract, because they feel they have chosen a good and honorable person, with guidance from god. but i think that if one partner in the marriage wants things put in, having a reaction to that, especially one of offense, is quite disrespectful to that future spouse, and would indicate to me a kind of immaturity not well-suited to the often difficult situations which could arise ina marriage, which will require love, patience, perserverance, dedication, integrity, and honor to resolve reasonably. and this is just resolving difficulties with the person to whom you desire to be most closely bound - what might that kind of reaction foretell about your ability or willingness to work on and resolve any of life's difficulties, especially small ones? ok, that's not to say that anyone is ever perfectly and completely mature (yeah, talking about myself here. i know at least some of my limitations.. ;) ), but there has to be a willingness to BE a partner in the marriage. or, as abu hamza described to me elsewhere, a fully functioning member of a team. and, though i understand why you would give this advice, bro naeem, as a protective warning, it seems that if you can't get a straight reading on a person without talking to everyone who knows that person, that's a person to avoid for something such as marriage - not to rule out friendship, though, since it's possible to be friends with someone whom you would not be compatible with in marriage. (but NOT the other way around...) this is why i expressed surprise in that other thread that two people could even come CLOSE to consider marrying whose families didn't soend some time associating with each other as part of the way for the two people to even decide that they MIGHT want to consider marrying. it's in one's family that you will find the full range of that person's strengths and weaknesses. i don't mean to say that if you don't like what you see in the rest of the family it rules out that person for you, but it should serve as a primer on some things you could expect. so, back to the contract, it seems that the family should stay out of what goes in the contract, except to sit down with both "children" (of the two families...), not one at a time, and say what they think would be good to put in. individual discussions with one's own "child" should have taken place before this time, as the "child" became old enough to marry. once the mate is chosen, the time for that separation, which could be divisive, has passed. then, well, i think the two should discuss it, decide what they think will be best for them, discuss it with the imam of their community - assumed to be wise and experienced, and then make the final decision for themselves. it is important to remember that nothing will be static in that marriage (except its place in god's heart), as time is not static. the love and affection and acceptance between the two people will grow, their levels of maturity will develop, but what they saw for themselves in their future together might very well become more and more distant as time progresses, and it might very well be necessary to have written reminders of what the original commitment was, which should also serve as a reminder to each of how they viewed that other person at the time of the marriage. the underlying view will remain somewhat stable, but the larger perspective will most likely change, as material circumstances change, as children come, as beloved relatives die and leave, as outside influences change. ok, thought i had more to say, can't remember anything else right now.... mwishka |
| Re: Marriage contract?? |
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| Aabidah |
| 06/01/02 at 21:38:17 |
| [slm] I agree with Sis Shahida also that aside from "trusting" and "not trusting" the brother, it's important to have agreements in writing. It may not be used in the near future but may be of good help in the future. If the brother knows his deen and is conscious of Allahu SubhanaHu Wata'ala, he knows that Allah is always watching him and that he will be questioned on the Day of Judgment, so InshaAllah he will keep his promises and not "forget" the agreements. But it doesn't hurt to have a contract, wAllahu A3lam. [wlm] Betul |
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