Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board

A R C H I V E S

Islam with an american flavor

Madina Archives


Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board

Islam with an american flavor
se7en
05/26/02 at 22:45:36
as salaamu alaykum wa rahmatAllah,

At a conf I recently attended, Imam Zaid Shakir spoke about the importance of producing a dynamic American Muslim culture.. one that will fulfill our needs as muslims in the United States, and that is more than a simple transfer or replicate of our cultures and traditions 'back home'.. how there is a need to move forward and evolve into a dynamic sub-culture, and from there move on to affect American society at large, inshaAllah.

This makes a lot of sense to me.. but I also wonder about where we should draw the line.  Like, when does producing an American Muslim culture start to cross the line into becoming an "apologetic" brand of Islam?  Should we do everything in our power to make Islam appealing to the non-Muslim majority of our society, as long as doing so is within the bound of Islam - even if doing so makes us uncomfortable or uneasy?  

For example.. would you wear american clothing [still within the bounds of Islam] as opposed to "Muslim" gear [ie Arab stuff like jilbabs and thawbs] just to look more approachable to non-Muslims, even if you are more comfortable in the thawb?  Would you name your child something easier for the average American to handle, like Adam instead of Abdul Majeed, so that they don't see Islam as something 'foreign'?  Would you stop using as much Arabic in your speech [mashaAllah, alhamdulillah] because it might be scary to some people?  

There are no right or wrong answers here.. i'm just curious about what all of you personally think and are comfortable with.

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts inshaAllah :)

wasalaamu alaykum :-)
05/26/02 at 22:56:37
se7en
Re: Islam with an american flavor
Aabidah
05/26/02 at 23:24:46
[slm]

I, personally, would not change anything to please non-Muslims.  Whatever we do, we do to please Allahu SubhanaHu Wata'ala and no one else.  So, when we do something to look better in the eyes of non-Muslims, we're not doing it to please Allahu SubhanaHu Wata'ala and we're doing it for others.  As Muslims in this nation, we are responsible of representing Islam in the proper and correct way.  And I don't think that I would change anything to the like of the non-Muslims because when they accept Islam, they accept it for the beauty of this religion.

Before we try to affect the American society at large, we much affect changes within our own communities, our families and within ourselves.  As Sheikh Mukhtar says we have to direct our radar's on the path of Allahu SubhanaHu Wata'ala and aim to become a loyal and sincere servant of Allah, and cleanse our hearts of the impurities of this world.  We work within ourselves first, then our families, then our communities and then work with the American society.  

Please forgive me if I've said anything wrong of if I have offended anyone.
Jazakum Allahu Khayran.

[wlm]
Betul
Re: Islam with an american flavor
Mentallect
05/26/02 at 23:27:08
I'm all down for American/Islamic culture. So long as it doesnt include the bootleg t-shirts that emulate Mecca or Roccawear or something. :D

Anyway, I wear pants and shirts or skirts, whatever catches my fancy but moderate. Not because I feel compelled to be "kafir friendly" but because I am American and I grew up here and if I was convinced I have to wear clothes of mid-eastern origin to be the best Muslim I'm capable of being, I would.  I usually explain Astaghfirullah when talking to my non muslim friends and such....haha thats something I can't really edit. In fact they use it as much as I do. I crack up everytime my friend tells me to say Aghstafirullah when I say something foul. Its charming.
05/26/02 at 23:31:16
Mentallect
Re: Islam with an american flavor
Ruqayyah
05/26/02 at 23:46:34
[slm]

[quote]I usually explain Astaghfirullah when talking to my non muslim friends and such....haha thats something I can't really edit. In fact they use it as much as I do.[/quote]

Yep, that happens to me too, but w/ "inshallah", my friends use it sometimes too, hehe.  Is that wrong in any way, if non-muslims use words like that? I don't think it would, since it means God willing, and they're God fearing people too.  

[wlm]
Ruqayyah
Re: Islam with an american flavor
Asim
05/26/02 at 23:59:22
Assalaamu alaikum,

Personally, I don't like the idea of an *American* Muslim culture. We would be committing the same mistake that other Muslim nations committed and suffer its consequences. Islam is Islam, we should build a community from the principles that were taught to us without resorting to any labeling.

I agree with what Aabidah has said.

The specifics...
[quote]For example.. would you wear american clothing [still within the bounds of Islam] as opposed to "Muslim" gear [ie Arab stuff like jilbabs and thawbs] just to look more approachable to non-Muslims, even if you are more comfortable in the thawb?  Would you name your child something easier for the average American to handle, like Adam instead of Abdul Majeed, so that they don't see Islam as something 'foreign'?[/quote]
Yes, no problems as I don't see how this violates islamic principles.
[quote] Would you stop using as much Arabic in your speech [mashaAllah, alhamdulillah] because it might be scary to some people?[/quote]
Hmm, try to use them as much, but if it seem inappropriate use use the english equivalent.


wasalaam.
Re: Islam with an american flavor
Mentallect
05/27/02 at 01:37:30
[quote]Culture

NOUN
1. a. The totality of socially transmitted behavior patterns, arts, beliefs, institutions, and all other products of human work and thought. b. These patterns, traits, and products considered as the expression of a particular period, class, community, or population: "Edwardian culture; Japanese culture; the culture of poverty." c. These patterns, traits, and products considered with respect to a particular category, such as a field, subject, or mode of expression: "religious culture in the Middle Ages; musical culture; oral culture." d. The predominating attitudes and behavior that characterize the functioning of a group or organization. 2. Intellectual and artistic activity and the works produced by it. 3. a. Development of the intellect through training or education. b. Enlightenment resulting from such training or education. 4. A high degree of taste and refinement formed by aesthetic and intellectual training.

[/quote]
Every country should have its own Islam influenced culture. Islam is an entirely seperate issue. Culture includes religion combined with other factors. The two, believe it or not, can co-exsist.  The degree of deviating from Islamic etiquette can and does apply to all cultures. One does not include the other, dont have to anyway.
05/27/02 at 01:38:48
Mentallect
Re: Islam with an american flavor
Abu_Hamza
05/27/02 at 02:00:19
[slm]

I guess we can always rely on se7en to ask the most intriguing questions on this board :)

[quote author=se7en link=board=madrasa;num=1022467536;start=0#0 date=05/26/02 at 22:45:36]
At a conf I recently attended, Imam Zaid Shakir spoke about the importance of producing a dynamic American Muslim culture.. one that will fulfill our needs as muslims in the United States, and that is more than a simple transfer or replicate of our cultures and traditions 'back home'.. how there is a need to move forward and evolve into a dynamic sub-culture, and from there move on to affect American society at large, inshaAllah.[/quote]

I agree with that sentiment a lot!  However, there is the flip side of the coin too.  Some things are part of Islam itself, and not simply of Arabian/Indo-Pak/African/etc cultures.  What Zaid Shaker is referring to is the latter I think.

[quote]when does producing an American Muslim culture start to cross the line into becoming an "apologetic" brand of Islam?  Should we do everything in our power to make Islam appealing to the non-Muslim majority of our society, as long as doing so is within the bound of Islam - even if doing so makes us uncomfortable or uneasy?  [/quote]

There's another line that bothers me moreso than what you're talking about.  And that's the line of imitating the culture of the kuffar.  Sometimes, in the process of making Islam appealing to the people, we start picking up on their ways and can very easily fall into that area where we're imitating them.  It's a fine line sometimes.

I guess I'm adding more questions than providing any answers so far :)

[quote]For example.. would you wear american clothing [still within the bounds of Islam] as opposed to "Muslim" gear [ie Arab stuff like jilbabs and thawbs] just to look more approachable to non-Muslims, even if you are more comfortable in the thawb?  [/quote]

This is something that one of the brothers in my commnity talks about a lot.  He says that when we should present ourselves (in a da'wah setting) to non-Muslims, we shouldn't wear a thoub or a qamees shalwar, etc.  For example, when Hamza Yusuf came to the last Isna without a turban, I was shocked.  When I expressed that to him, he looked at me and said, why were you shocked?  Why does he *have* to be wearing a turban here?  He said the same thing when he came on CNN, and was pleased that he wore a suit.  On the other hand, he didn't feel it was appropriate for Shabbir Ally to wear a white thob, kufi and leather socks to a nationally televised debate (via satellite) with a christian two years ago.

This brother, by the way, is Saudi.  

[quote]Would you name your child something easier for the average American to handle, like Adam instead of Abdul Majeed, so that they don't see Islam as something 'foreign'?[/quote]

Hmm.  I would name my child something like ... Hamza :)

I would name my child something that is easier to pronounce for the American people.   I don't want to name my kid something that will *always* be mispronounced by *most* of the people around my child!  I have a friend whose name is Abdul Rahman, and almost everyone calls him Ramaan.  Some people call him Ab-dool.  I would rather name my child something like Ibraheem, which would be easier on the American tongue.

[quote]Would you stop using as much Arabic in your speech [mashaAllah, alhamdulillah] because it might be scary to some people?  [/quote]

I almost *never* use Arabic when in front of a non-Muslim.  Why should I?  The only exception to this is "Allah."  I have a hard time switching to "God."  But things like insha Allah and alhamdulillah, why should I say them in Arabic?  What's the point?  I always say them in English.  

Insha Allah I'll write more tomorrow or something...
05/27/02 at 02:28:40
Abu_Hamza
Re: Islam with an american flavor
bhaloo
05/27/02 at 02:19:40
[slm]

I'm going to agree with Asim here.


For example.. would you wear american clothing [still within the bounds of Islam] as opposed to "Muslim" gear [ie Arab stuff like jilbabs and thawbs] just to look more approachable to non-Muslims, even if you are more comfortable in the thawb?  


People should wear what they feel comfortable with wearing, as long as it follows proper Islamic guidelines.  Hijab is required of Muslim women, what are they going to do?  There isn't something equivalent to it in American culture.
Re: Islam with an american flavor
M.F.
05/27/02 at 05:42:45
Bismillahir Rahmaanir Raheem,
It seems to me that there are so many "flavors" or shades of Islam in America already that Islam has already shown itself to be flexible and that it can fit in anywhere, including in America.  You can look at it from several sides.  First you could think to yourself "The Jews and the Christians will never be pleased with you until you follow their way" (Qur'an but I forget what sura and ayah) and therefore make no effort to fit in any more than you already do.  Or on the other hand you can look at it as your duty to show them that Islam can and does come in different flavors and that they might like one of them.  In either case, if you're someone who practices Islam as it should be and treat non Muslims kindly "address them with what is best" then you won't have to worry about the issue at all.  I think that's what our duty is towards Islam and towards non Muslims.  I don't think anyone should go out of their way to accomodate anyone else to the point that it makes them uncomfortable.  If you feel more comfortable in a thawb, then wear one, there's plenty of Muslims who don't and who prove that you don't HAVE to,  but in any case, make sure that what comes out of your mouth is not something that will make non Muslims run the other way.  Don't stop using insha Allah if it's what comes naturally to you, because there are also a lot of Muslims who use the English for it.  I personally don't see any benefit in choosing one name over another but I know that some Muslims who live in the US choose names that are easy to pronounce, but not necessarily those "international" names.
When Rasulullah (S) used to have a choice he'd choose the easiest thing as long as it was in the bounds of Islam.  Part of the reason why he used to do that, I believe, is that, all these centuries later, we would mention it and use it as an example.  Make things easy for people and for yourself as long as it's within the boundaries of Islam.
Re: Islam with an american flavor
BrKhalid
05/27/02 at 07:22:23
Asalaamu Alaikum ;-)

[quote]For example.. would you wear american clothing [still within the bounds of Islam] as opposed to "Muslim" gear [ie Arab stuff like jilbabs and thawbs] just to look more approachable to non-Muslims, even if you are more comfortable in the thawb? [/quote]

Yep Sr se7en was right. I don’t think there are any right answers here!!!

For example, you may feel more comfortable wearing more "Muslim gear" as a rule but if you're meeting someone to give them dawah and know that such clothing may instinctively put them ill at ease then why not wear American clothing?

[color=Brown]Invite (all) to the way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knoweth best who have strayed from His Path and who receive guidance (Quran 16:125) [/color]

Aren't you acting upon the above verse and hence in accordance with Islam?


As for names, I think you do have to be a bit wary on how these names will be pronounced *but* our names are great part of our identity and if we start choosing names merely to fit in, we may be sending the wrong message to our children.

As ever Allah knows best.
Re: Islam with an american flavor
Shahida
05/27/02 at 08:22:11
 [slm]

Se7en, interesting topic, mashaAllah!  I am not American, nor do I live in the US, but I do live in a predominantly non-Muslim country...and we do kinda have the same challenges that you face there.

I find this topic extremely intriguing, because it is something I have been discussing with my friends and the Muslim sisters in my community and at university.  We have the whole spectrum of opinions, and of course, we accept each others' views, as long as we do not go against what is Islamically correct.

My comments to Se7en's post then:

"[u]At a conf I recently attended, Imam Zaid Shakir spoke about the importance of producing a dynamic American Muslim culture.. one that will fulfill our needs as muslims in the United States, and that is more than a simple transfer or replicate of our cultures and traditions 'back home'.. how there is a need to move forward and evolve into a dynamic sub-culture, and from there move on to affect American society at large, inshaAllah.  [/u]

I think it is *essential* to try and develop an American Muslim culture, purely because there are so many different "kinds" of Muslims there, ethnically speaking.  The only thing you all have in common is Islam, and to try and reproduce *India* or *Pakistan* is firstly not really possible because you ARE in the US, and secondly it is discriminatory to those who do not belong to those ethnic backgrounds(especially think of the revert bros and sisters).  By trying to replicate the whole "back-home" situation, i feel we also give a false impression of Islam, as something "ethnic", rather than a way of life that *anyone* can feel comfortable with.  This *lets pretend we're back home* situation we have had here in South Africa ever since Islam first arrived here...and it really just leads to people thinking of themselves first as *Indian* or *Malay* instead of Muslim. ( I have all sorts of theories about how Apartheid had a major role to play in this, but this is not the time for that discussion...)

It's important to understand that Islam in itself is also "culture", the challenge arises when we have to put that "culture" into action.  When we do, inshaAllah, accomplish this task, then I believe we will get the world away from the "are you Indian or Muslim?" kinda mentality, and project a beautiful, multi-ethinic, diverse picture of Islam, where everyone, despite their ethnic background, has his or her place.

[u] Should we do everything in our power to make Islam appealing to the non-Muslim majority of our society, as long as doing so is within the bound of Islam - even if doing so makes us uncomfortable or uneasy?    [/u]

mmm, I'd have to ask then, *WHY*? would we feel uneasy? or uncomfortable?  The only answer I could come up with, would be that these feelings would be caused by our *feelings* that what we are doing, or the lengths that we are going to, are actually going against our Islamic views and beliefs...that we are kinda compromising ourselves???

[u]would you wear american clothing [still within the bounds of Islam] as opposed to "Muslim" gear [ie Arab stuff like jilbabs and thawbs] just to look more approachable to non-Muslims, even if you are more comfortable in the thawb?  [/u]

Personally no, but I do have friends who wear *normal* clothing, because they feel more comfortable in this environment that way...kinda like blending in a little bit more than with the jilbaab...I have NOT found that the jilbaab makes people less comfortable with approaching me though.  IN fact, one of my collegues in first year, who was under the mistaken impression that clothing in Islam shows a particular hierarchy in religiousness and knowledge, approached me to ask about Islam instead of the other sister in my class because she thought i would be able to answer the questions better!  Of course she was mistaken ;)  But that shows that clothing, even though we dont tend to take it too seriously, does make a difference to how people view us.

[u]Would you name your child something easier for the average American to handle, like Adam instead of Abdul Majeed, so that they don't see Islam as something 'foreign'?    [/u]

Oh, this is hard! I would hate to give up a name like Qurat-al-Ain, just because people would have a hard time pronouncing it!  But the truth is that most people would NEVER get the pronunciation right, and my child would go thru life with a beautiful name that nobody can say!! :(  I think Arabic names in general are quite difficult, and some of my friends in America have chosen names like Sawsan or May, just to make it easier.  Don't have any kids, but right now, I admit that the general public's pronunciation abilities would play a role in naming the kids, when inshaAllah, they do arrive!  

Another thing I just thought of: I had a childhood friend called Yusuf, and NOBODY except me, would call him Yusuf, they would all change it to joey or joe!! >:(  even the Muslims!!! I would correct them ALL, and swore that when I named my kids, nobody would destroy the A7mad and call him "ahh-mid" or "err-mid" etc...


[u]Would you stop using as much Arabic in your speech [mashaAllah, alhamdulillah] because it might be scary to some people?   [/u]

People get used to it after a while.  I explained to them what I am saying, and since it is *such* a big part of my everyday vocab, I dont think it would be easy for me to change.  My friends have a hard time even saying "alhamdulillah" after they sneeze, replacing it with "excuse me" or something like that.  I don't see the need, as nobody is listening with particular interest anyway!  ;)  and why say something out loud only to say something else in your heart!  Too complicated for me!  As for InshaAllah, MashaAllah, and even the exclamation "ya Allaah!!!", they get used to it, doesnt even take long. most people( if they come across me for the first time, will just assume they heard incorrectly....I usually explain though, if the opportunity arises!

Ok, time for me to go, before Se7en bans me from answering anymore of her posts.

Salam
Shahida :-)
Re: Islam with an american flavor
PeaceSeeker
05/27/02 at 08:24:47
[slm]

 This might come as a suprise to all who are either American converts or american born. But take it from a person who is neither and has spent quite some time here in the United States.
 American Muslims( here I am refering to american converts and american born "immigrants") Already have a unique culture of their own. Sure it is similar to the cultures of other muslim countries but it has taken a form of its own. So I don't think you people have to really worry about forming a new American Muslim culture.
  I'm sure if there are others on this forum- who are new to USA- would agree with my observation.
 Oh and I would like to add something here. As the number of muslims are still increasing at a phenomenal rate the culture is still going under evolution. But don't worry all the signs of change are towards the good.
       
 
Re: Islam with an american flavor
mwishka
05/27/02 at 15:12:55
hmmm....i need to reply to these things, though, of course, my comments are
from a point of outside observation.  (and as a complete outsider, come to think
of it...)

first, i would agree with peace seeker.  you don't have to be non-american to see
that the predominant MUSLIM culture in the US is quite american, compared to
what i see around the world from the sources i use to gather that view.  (i emphasize
"muslim" to distinguish it from the multitude of other cultural manifestations i've
encountered among muslims of differing national origins or ethnicities.)  but
don't erase your own culture.  i tend to think that islam encourages us to
love our differences, and that they benefit us, as long as they don't go against
its teachings.

second, i listened to a lecture by imam shakir on establishing muslim roles in
american institutions, which is related to this, but may not be the specific
lecture seven heard.  i heard nothing in THAT lecture, and i see nothing in the
comments at the beginning of this discussion (i.e., producing a dynamic american
muslim culture) which would at all lead me to believe that the recommendation
is to subvert either oneself, one's identity, or any facet of one's religion to
approach this goal.  i can't see that there was any implication to be false, or
manipulative, or to even in the tiniest of ways misrepresent oneself or anything
about islam.

here's what i'd say about the things being discussed here in general:

if you always wear a certain kind of clothing, well then, you just do.  if people
are more afraid of you or less afraid of you when you're wearing it, that has to do
with you, and not the clothing.  i think people would be made more uncomfortable
thinking (or knowing or realizing) you put on a false apppearance to approach
them to communicate about something so essential to you that no falseness should
in any way EVER be attached to it.  my instinct on this is that it might even be
against the intended practice of dawah.  if, in fact, your clothing choices cover a
wide range in your regular life, then you should choose what is most comfortable
for YOU in a situation in which you'll be working to communicate well with
others, particularly about islam.

i have a first name that's mispronounced 85% of the time and misspelled 99% of
the time.  it's even pronounced in different ways by different people in my own
extended family.  would i change my name?  no, i like it.  would my family have
given me a different name if they realized how it would turn out?  sometimes
they say they would, mostly, they say no, because they like it, too.  i have a
simple rule i follow:  i will correct someone's pronunciation the first three
times they say it wrong, then whatever they call me is the name they want to call
me, and i'll answer to it.  how your child deals with the name you give them,
again, like your clothing, is about you.  what's inside your child is going to
determine whether or not a name in another language than english (in the US) is
going to be a problem for them.  and you must be conscious of your child in every
detail, you must watch for signs that the name is a problem to the child the same
as you would watch for any other sign of discomfort or sorrow in your child.  you
might find that one child will need an easier name whereas a sibling of that child
will be comfortable gracefully telling even strangers what their beautiful name
means, and how to pronounce it.  i can tell you that merely saying a name out
loud to someone is unlikely to get across its true pronunciation.  you have to
describe the vowel sounds, especially, but also any other sounds uncommon to
english.  i work in a department with a lot of chinese students, and they've come
to be fond of, though also amused by, the way i will approach them with a pen and
paper and ask them to tell me how best to correctly pronounce their names - piece
by piece.  and i still find that, though they all understand each other's accents,
only some will then recognize the name in my american accent, partly because i
was carefully taught to pronounce it in one dialect.  this name choice is a very
individual thing, and depends on one's own ease with the different ways in which
it will play out.

if you always use arabic expressions, use them.  but for non-muslims whom you
are often around, tell them what the expressions translate as in english, and
explain why you use them as you do.  i'm sure you realize christians use many
equivalent english expressions of wonder and humilty before god.  and that there
are many christians who will never say aloud the name of god, and that many
catholics still bow their head whenever they say or hear the name of jesus, and
bring their fist to their chest in a literal act of begging god's mercy on their
heart whenever they act against him.  so these things are not completely alien to
all americans.  now, even having said that, what you should realize is that both
you and these extremely devout  christians are seen as anomalies in america.  it
is not the language that will cause confusion or reaction (where the translation
is known, i mean) -- it's the presence of religious practice in such intimate
detail of one's life.  the routine expression of formal religious practices, as in
religious practice that is OUTWARDLY obvious, is what is alien to americans,
due not to prejudice (yes, yes, sometimes it is, but we're generalizing about
american culture here), but to the constitutionally ingrained american idea that
religious practice has been known to interfere with human rights and freedom of
expression, and it is something to be forever wary of.

hope no one minds that i kind of just snuck in here....

mwishka
Re: Islam with an american flavor
BroHanif
05/27/02 at 19:01:42
[slm]

Hmm.. I thought about this for a time and I think it's muslims first and then our nationality whether we are Brits, Yanks or whatever. We are muslims first and then we can draw from our culture.

Islam itself is a change of hearts a different way of thinking, a different way of expressing oneself inner and outer. So what may be right for you may not be exactly compfortable to others but where is your line that you draw ???

Sadly, we all know too well that the likes of Fortuyn, Le Pen, The German Christian Society, Charles Huntington and others they know that when a number of muslims try and change soceity as whole then not only will people learn to accpet the harmony of Islam but it will be the very end of the evil that is rampant in society.

Anyway more later.

Hanif
Re: Islam with an american flavor
PeaceSeeker
05/28/02 at 00:20:39
[slm]

 I don't have anything to add to the discussion but I do wish to mention mishwaka's post was quite insightful. I'm not trying to flatter or anything I just thought the author should know his/her words do have an infulence.
Re: Islam with an american flavor
Kashif
05/28/02 at 05:23:37
[quote author=mwishka link=board=madrasa;num=1022467536;start=0#12 date=05/27/02 at 15:12:55]  i have a
simple rule i follow:  i will correct someone's pronunciation the first three
times they say it wrong, then whatever they call me is the name they want to call
me, and i'll answer to it. [/quote]

This reminded me of a funny story that my sister told me. There is a guy in her class called Robert, and for some strange reason she called him Kevin when term started. Everyone laughed, and started calling him Kevin, and now he's always called Kevin.

Now this is the really weird part. She said that one time she needed to speak to him so called out "Robert" but he ignored the call and carried walking away. haha.

Kashif
Wa Salaam
NS
Re: Islam with an american flavor
Kathy
05/28/02 at 09:37:17
[wlm]

[quote author=se7en link=board=madrasa;num=1022467536;start=0#0 date=05/26/02 at 22:45:36]...one that will fulfill our needs as muslims in the United States, and that is more than a simple transfer or replicate of our cultures and traditions 'back home'.[/quote]

Are you speaking of cultural Islam vs Real Islam in this question, in the practicing religion aspect- or are you speaking of communities, gatherings, schools, etc...? [i]Kathy asks- because this question has several different conotations![/i]

[quote] ....how there is a need to move forward and evolve into a dynamic sub-culture, and from there move on to affect American society at large, inshaAllah.[/quote]

The sub culture is there. Just newly forming- with the young second generation of immigrents and reverts- they/we are just waiting to burst forth.

I think the first group of Muslims that came over- assimulated. The next brought their customs and had children who were "embarrassed over their families" so they did not acknowledge their culture/ religion. The next group came over for the better life- knowing that the "evils" of America may devour their children- and while the parents stayed within themselves, their children began public schools and began "mixing" in with the American kids. The final group to come has seen this. They are now in a ferverant race to build Islamic Schools, communities- as they see many of their friends' children "lost."

The problem as I see it is that we have a great religion- we should be proud of it- not defensive or apologetic. Speaking as a parent I think the mistakes we made were in always defending ourselves. Insha Allah, I will raise my son to be proud to be Muslim. Every day as I kiss him at the school door, I alway say... "Remember who you are" I hope he gets that statement as a sense of pride, that he is different- in a positive way, and that he should be verrrrry greatful that he is Muslim.

[quote]Should we do everything in our power to make Islam appealing to the non-Muslim majority of our society, as long as doing so is within the bound of Islam - even if doing so makes us uncomfortable or uneasy? [/quote] 

It was interesting that you gave the example of the clothing. On the flip side, I am most comfortable in pants and a very long shirt. When I go to the schools and churches- I wear more traditional Islamic wear- I am not uncomfortable- just it is not the norm. Sure- I do it for the show. When they book you they are expecting "arab" like people to come. When Mary has been coming she dresses more "american." It is a great conversation starter. I always get a kick out of the women who ask me where I get my clothes- do I sew? They are amazed when I say "Catherines, or Peter Harris (regular stores)!"

[quote]Would you name your child something easier for the average American to handle, like Adam instead of Abdul Majeed, so that they don't see Islam as something 'foreign'? [/quote] 

I did. Just for ease for my child- I named him Ali. No problems with spelling, name recognition, forms, etc... However- it had nothing to do with my concern over seeing Islam as "foreign."
A side point, due to my limitations, I have the hardest time remembering the names of most of the women in the masjid. You hear their name- when you first meet- and it is (for me) impossible to hear or understand a name whom even the sounds are not part of my language.
Kathy- as many of the old timers know I took an Arabic name when I became Muslim, but once I found out that I did not have to change it- I went right back to Kathy. My thinking was/is there are American Muslims- let's get used to it!

[quote]Would you stop using as much Arabic in your speech [mashaAllah, alhamdulillah] because it might be scary to some people? [/quote]

When I am with Americans- I want them to get the meaning of what I am saying, as few will ask what you just said. So I usually say- Praise be to God, God Willing, etc...
Most of the time I 'slip' and say the arabic - but then quickly say the english. I have had enough friends who were honest with me and said 'the arabic puts them off.' Sometimes just watch a conversation with a Muslim and a non- watch their facial expressions and body language when the arabic is being said.
People that I am around alot- have gotten used to "alhamdullillah,etc. "But are generally uncomfortable- but I think it is because religion is not a big part of their lives.

Remember all of this is from my perspective.
Re: Islam with an american flavor
Chris
05/28/02 at 13:16:03
This is a facingating discussion, but I'm not sure I should contribute.  As Abu Kaled deduced, I'm not a Relionionist in any sense.  However, I have one point to make.

You can lie to others, but not to yourself, or at least you should not.  (I suppose this come under the sin of 'feeling secure from Allah's plan').  If you act more american to be accepted, while being different underneath, you'll go mad eventually.  Be what you are and don't get angry if people don't like you because you're different, they are the losers, not you.

Chris
Re: As time passes...
jaihoon
05/28/02 at 13:43:51
[slm]

The whole of US culture (like it seems today) is just a few hundred years old, let alone American ISLAMic culture.

However, just as in the case with other regions like Indian subcontinent or Far East, a unique culture- Islam+American-  will unfold itself.

As se7en wonders, new forms of clothing, i.e American mainstream-friendly yet Islamic, will emerge. Just as we see unique scarf- falling upto knees- pattern among far east Muslims, or as how Indian MUSLIM women use the end of their SARI to cover their head.

As for Language, Indian Islam has produced Urdu, a unique language unmatched for its poetic elegance. American Muslims has yet to come up with something like that.

US Muslims are yet to produce any notable scholars who stand out from the rest.

As for modification in existing languages, Indian Muslims adress their mother as Ammi (in the North) or Umma (in the south) although there exists a common word in the languages used by other communities.

For regional impact on Arabic, the spiritual tongue of Muslim faith, the South Indian Muslims had devoped their own style, with thick letters in print.

It's just a matter of tme when US Muslims will also have such developments.

Art forms including music, painting, architecture will emerge reflecting Islamic elements. Islamic rap lyrics, like the ones made by MYNA for example, will get more refined.

Insha Allah, maybe then the US muslim household will have a different word for Mom!

An analysis of Islamic history shows that the glory of Muslim civilization has shone in different parts of the world. We saw it in Arabia, then in Persia, then in Spain, then in India, then in Turkey... which clearly shows that there is no such thing as 'Chosen people' or 'promised Land' in Islam, as in the case of the other racist religions.


- Jaihoon
05/28/02 at 13:50:32
jaihoon
Re: Islam with an american flavor
muqaddar
05/29/02 at 10:33:02
[slm]

 Interesting concept. I can imagine the idea of an islamic culture in the UK or France etc but this relies more on the number of native people who convert etc and thus create an islamic culture.

 I find it a bit difficult to conceive of an 'american' islam because there is no homogenous american culture. Thus i've met native american , chicano as well as anglo and african muslims from america.

 The concept of an 'american' culture seems to be creation of Pat Buchanan and D.W.M's.
Re: Islam with an american flavor
Addison
05/29/02 at 11:19:39
Dear Se7en,

Once again, I ask for your forum's indulgence. I found your letter to be quite interesting and yet as equally disconcerting. I do not so much wonder WHERE the line should be drawn as much as I wonder IF it should be drawn at all. Perhaps my concerns are of an opposing nature.

When I finished reading your letter I was reminded of an experiment that we did when I was studying communications at U. MD., (back in the early 14th cent...!) We went into class and the professor had arranged the desks into a horseshoe design. We all found a seat. The professor walked to one end of the table, leaned over and whispered something into one of his student's ears. (Does this sound familiar yet?) He then instructed the student to relay this message to the next student in the same way, and so on, until we had come to the other side of the table. By the time the message had reached the last student (of only a dozen or so,) the original message had been completely obliterated.

You asked, "should we do everything in our power to make Islam appealing to the non-Muslim majority of our society,...even if doing so makes us feel uncomfortable or uneasy?"
Absolutley not.
You continued, "...would you wear american clothing...just to look more approachable to non-Muslims...?"
Hopefully, you are not considering this in earnest.
Your "traditional" clothing is what helps to make you distinctive, and , I think, MORE approachable. Look. Let us be casual for a moment. Mind you, one must always consider the situation, so try not to take this out of context. There are, I'm certain, many situations in which it would be inappropriate for me to approach you with annoying queries...If I am sitting on a bus, for instance, and I happen to notice you, and you are dressed much in the same way as I am, I might smile or nod a greeting, but probably would not go beyond that perfunctory gesture. However, if I saw you in some garb which might be more traditional in nature, I would be more likely to approach you and begin a conversation. I know that I am NOT the only person who feels this way. Apart from a few residents of "bizarro world," I feel that most non-Muslims are quite inquisitive and generally enthusiatic about what we can learn from you. Personally, I would hate to miss that opportunity.
You continued by asking, Would you name your child something easier for the average American to handle...?" It is for certain that Muslim names do offer some challenges for us non-Muslims (just ask BUSHRA about MY guffaw...) But you know, your names are so lovely that it would seem a shame to "Americanize" them in any way. (Not to mention the fact that they have such specific meanings attached to them.)  If we have trouble, then it is our responsibility to learn to say them correctly. I am reminded of a phenomenon with which you are no doubt familiar, called the"dumbing down of America," whereby we have lowered the "bar" on standardized testing scores so that more students can receive a passing grade. Unfortunately, by doing so, we have encouraged complacency and dimished the desire to learn because it might require ( *GASP* ) thought and effort.
Se7en... Make us work for it.

You finished by asking," Would you stop using as much Arabic in your speech...because it might be scarey to some people?" Arabic is one of the most beautiful languages ever to proceed from a human being's mouth. What's REALLY scarey is listening to a non-muslim try to speak it. I think people love to hear it, but it intimidates them because it is so difficult to learn. Personally, I am SO afraid of botching it up that , in all honesty,  I usually don't even TRY to spit out the rudimentary collection of words I've learned. (The only words and phrases that I feel comfortable with are those which I've learned from repeated listenings to music cd's, and I learned THOSE phonetically, so I have NO IDEA what I'm singing about!  DUH.)

I guess what I mean to say in general is that although it is (as I have found,) typically gracious of you to even consider changing the above mentioned aspects in order to be of service to non-Muslims, I believe that if you did such a thing, you would be compromising yourselves and ultimately, you would dilute, even diminish your character as persons and as representatives of a community from which we can learn much in its most potent state.

With kind regards,
Respectfully,
Addison
05/29/02 at 11:28:01
Addison
Re: Islam with an american flavor
PeaceSeeker
05/29/02 at 17:56:14


 [quote]When I finished reading your letter I was reminded of an experiment that we did when I was studying communications at U. MD., (back in the early 14th cent...!) We went into class and the professor had arranged the desks into a horseshoe design. We all found a seat. The professor walked to one end of the table, leaned over and whispered something into one of his student's ears. (Does this sound familiar yet?) He then instructed the student to relay this message to the next student in the same way, and so on, until we had come to the other side of the table. By the time the message had reached the last student (of only a dozen or so,) the original message had been completely obliterated.
[/quote]


 Addisson, were you trying to hint towards  what I had said earlier.
You don't sound like you are, but hey I don't get the american sarcasm most of the time.  
Re: Islam with an american flavor
Addison
05/29/02 at 18:54:28
Dear "Peace Seeker'"
I am sorry for the confusion! What I was wondering when I asked, "does this sound familiar?" was concerning whether or not anyone else had had to do that type of experiment in school. I was thinking that it would have a certain familiarity to it.
I am often very bad at expressing myself Peace Seeker. I do beg your pardon if that struck you the wrong way.  I do not care for sarcasm; it is too vicious. But now I am a little concerned! What did you think I meant? Do you think someone else might misinterpret it? I hope not!
Respectfully,
Addison


05/29/02 at 19:24:35
Addison
Re: Islam with an american flavor
Chakhooo
05/29/02 at 20:42:15
Assalmu alaikum everyone...

Addison ...u spoke most eloquently....and took the words right outta my mouth... I definitely think compromising any part of our character and way of doing things is totally unacceptable.  Take for example, our names...You put it nicely that names are beautiful,,,and that they have meanings and purposes behind them.  Like many have done naming their children a more western name or a name easier to pronounce for westerners makes me think that we want life to be easier for who??  our children ?? people in the west?? us??  After our prophet ( peace be upon him) advised us to name our children with good muslim names.  that should be our priority,,,,not makin it easier on someone...cuz it might be hard to pronounce....

At work...when i first started..my coworkers used to constantly ask me we need a nick name for u Sohail...I was like what is so hard about SO HAIL...For some reason adding two syllables to a name created havoc in their lives...They all of a sudden forgot their phonics lessons from grade 3....But now they call on me like it was nothing.....The beauty of me not comprimising and callin myself SO.....was that they learned that im not about to assimilate the way they want me to ....and that my name is just that .....MY name,,,,,not their name for me ,,,,or what they think it should be.....Anyways ..i kinda went off on a tangent...but i'll stop here...

Wasalams

Sohail
Re: Islam with an american flavor
Addison
05/29/02 at 21:16:18
Dear "Chakhooo" (Sohail,)
I read this, and forgive me, you had such humor about it, that it made me laugh:
       "I was like what is so hard about SO HAIL... For some reason adding two syllables to a name created havoc in thier lives... They all of a sudden forgot their phonics lessons from grade 3..."

I see you've met some of the residents of "bizarro world" (as mentioned above.)

Sort of makes you wonder what  nick name they might have chosen...Something monosyallabic and easy for them to digest, no doubt.

It's good that you could rise above it.

Keep it strong,
Respectfully,
Addison
Re: Islam with an american flavor
boy
05/30/02 at 00:59:27
What is a Muslim name? Are Arab names Muslims? Or only the names in the Middle East Muslim? What about Indian or Indonesian or Turkish?

I think there is a huge difference between compromising religion and compromising culture. If you insist on wearing thobs to work...regardless of how many people find that to be a true meaning of iman...you aren't really doing anything that God mandates. Your at best following a misguided version of the Sunnah. However when its time for Zuhr you better pray it.
Re: Islam with an american flavor
PeaceSeeker
05/30/02 at 02:35:33
Addison,

the reason I got suspicious was because I had mentioned the same type of experiment a day before you did on some other thread. It just didn't seem to be a coincidence. But now I know it just happened to be one.

Re: Islam with an american flavor
Addison
05/30/02 at 05:55:20
Dear "Peace Seeker,"

Woah! I missed your reference! I am really new to computers and even newer to this board. Is there a way I can look up what you said? I do not enter into some of the areas on this site bacause I feel like I really don't have any business to, you know?? It just feels a lot like, if you will pardon the roughness of this, looking into someone else's underwear drawer. Can you tell me??

With kind regards,
Addison
05/30/02 at 12:45:09
Addison
Re: Islam with an american flavor
PeaceSeeker
05/30/02 at 12:17:38
Addison,

you can find the thread on this link

   [url]http://www.jannah.org/cgi-bin/madina/YaBB.pl?board=library;action=display;num=1022476247[/url]

 If the link does not work then browse to "Taqwa & Masjid" room. The threads name is "What if Quran..."
Re: Islam with an american flavor
Addison
05/30/02 at 12:51:27
Dear "Peace Seeker,"

Thanks for your help! I'll go take a peek...

All the best,
Addison
Re: Islam with an american flavor
se7en
06/02/02 at 01:41:37
as salaamu alaykum wa rahmatAllah,

there are some really interesting comments here.. may Allah reward all of you for taking the time to think about this issue and post to this thread :)

Something important that was brought up, that I agree with very much, is that there is a distinct difference between what the divine teachings of Islam say about cultural adaptation, and what we may personally feel comfortable with.  I think a lot of times we get so accustomed to the way things are, or to the values and standards we were raised with (that are a mesh of islamic as well as ethnic and cultural teachings) that when something new comes about we are automatically hostile to it and see it as something incorrect or invalid.  We have to make sure our rejection of things is based on *Islam* and not just a knee-jerk reaction to something different.

A statement that was made quite a few times in this thread is that we should not compromise our religion in order to please non-Muslims.  I agree, that we should not compromise on the principles and teachings of Islam, or be apologetic about them, in order to curry favor with people who dislike it.  But we need to distinguish that in which there is no compromise -Islam as rooted in the divine texts, and the "compromiseable" - anything that stems from cultural tradition.

Labeling an American Muslim culture as 'apologetic' is extremely short-sighted.  There is indeed a need for one.. one is actually evolving without any conscious effort on our part, as we are *part* of american society and interact with it daily, not to mention the influx of converts who join our community every day that are american by culture and ethnicity.  

I have a lot more to say (as usual ::)), but i'll end with two comments:  

1. we as a community need to acknowledge that an american muslim culture *is* emerging, one that is in dire need of proper institutions and infrastructure to satisfy it's needs.  cries of khilafa won't do much for us at this point (though I am not denying it should be part of our vision for the future), and we need to start working, and working hard, to make this community a viable, important and influential one.

2.  we need to move beyond a cultural understanding of islam because it is seriously limiting us from our full potential as da'ees in non-Muslim societies today.  'Culture' here is not just referring to ethnic background, but perspective.  Islam is dynamic, open to different cultures, perspectives, attitudes and we need to move beyond our own *personal* understanding to allow people to see that.

as always Allahu a'lam..

feel free to disagree :)

wasalaamu alaykum wa rahmatAllah :-)
06/02/02 at 01:53:05
se7en
Re: Islam with an american flavor
Aabidah
06/02/02 at 23:36:43
[slm]

se7en I agree with your comments, that we are in need of institutions to satisfy the needs of the American Muslim culture.  But remember this, Islam is not based on culture of any kind of people, it is a way of life, and everything we need to know are in the Qur'an and in the teachings of Rasulullah [saw].  I understand that we live in the American society and we cannot avoid the daily interaction we have with the American culture, the people and everything in America.  But as Muslims in a country which is mainly non-Muslim, it is our responsibilty to keep our identities and represent Islam the way it is.  We have American's coming into Islam, and it will take time for them to adjust to everything (eg, wearing a hijab, covering fully, wearing a kufi, etc), and they will live their lives according to how they were brought up (of course without all of the haraam).  

I see how different view points arise from this point on, and like you said in the beginning, there is no right answer to this question.  Islam governs our daily life, no matter from what culture we are, and Allahu SubhanaHu Wata'ala doesn't judge us by our culture either.  Just like there is no difference between man and woman regarding their souls and their duties to Allahu SubhanaHu Wata'ala, there is no difference in culture either.  No matter how long we've been living in the United States, I believe that if we look to the routes of Islam, we will find the true way of life.  However, we do live in a society that is improving itself everyday and we have to also adapt to some of those changes, but not all of them.  If I've offended anyone, plz forgive me, wAllahu A3lam.

[wlm]
Betul
sorry for bringing this topic up again...BUT
boy
06/08/02 at 03:04:47
i just wanted to make another quick comment which i'm actually mooching off of others.

what developing an american culture means is not that we'll make sisters wear hijabs that aren't really hijabing but baseball caps that kinda cover the hair. its not americanizing hijab but making hijab an ameircan dress. to make hijab something that doesn't seem foreign.

the things which are requirements in islam...we can make them seem american. the things which are cultural...we can adapt towards and if we don't...our grandchildren certainly will. so why make them pick between islam or american culture? thats just trying to hold onto something thats already gone.


Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
A R C H I V E S

Individual posts do not necessarily reflect the views of Jannah.org, Islam, or all Muslims. All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective owners. Comments are owned by the poster and may not be used without consent of the author.
The rest © Jannah.Org