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| Fantastic use of logic |
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| Saffiyah |
| 06/01/02 at 12:42:52 |
| From an e-mail... At an educational institution: "LET ME EXPLAIN THE problem science has with God." The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new students to stand. "You're a Muslim, aren't you, son?" "Yes, sir." "So you believe in God?" "Absolutely." "Is God good?" "Sure! God's good." "Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?" "Yes." The professor grins knowingly. He considers for a moment."Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help him? "Would you try?" "Yes sir, I would." "So you're good...!" "I wouldn't say that." "Why not say that? You would help a sick and maimed person if you could... in fact most of us would if we could... God doesn't." [No answer.] "He doesn't, does he? My brother was a Muslim who died of cancer even though he prayed to God to heal him. How is this God good? Hmmm? Can you answer that one?" [No answer] The elderly man is sympathetic. "No, you can't, can you?" He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax. In philosophy, you have to go easy with the new ones. "Let's start again, young fella. - Is God good?" "Er... Yes." "Is Satan good?" "No." "Where does Satan come from?" The student falters. "From... God..." "That's right. God made Satan, didn't he?" The elderly man runs his bony fingers through his thinning hair and turns to the smirking, student audience. "I think we're going to have a lot of fun this semester, ladies and gentlemen." He turns back to the Muslim. "Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?" "Yes, sir." "Evil's everywhere, isn't it? Did God make everything?" "Yes." "Who created evil?" [No answer] "Is there sickness in this world? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All the terrible things - do they exist in this world? " The student squirms on his feet. "Yes." "Who created them? " [No answer] The professor suddenly shouts at his student. "WHO CREATED THEM? TELL ME, PLEASE!" The professor closes in for the kill and climbs into the Muslim's face. In a still small voice: "God created all evil, didn't He, son?" [No answer] The student tries to hold the steady, experienced gaze and fails. Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace the front of the classroom like an aging panther. The class is mesmerized. "Tell me," he continues, "How is it that this God is good if He created all evil throughout all time?" The professor swishes his arms around to encompass the wickedness of the world. "All the hatred, the brutality, all the pain, all the torture,all the death and ugliness and all the suffering created by this good God is all over the world, isn't it,young man?" [No answer] "Don't you see it all over the place? Huh?" Pause. "Don't you?" The professor leans into the student's face again and whispers, "Is God good?" [No answer] "Do you believe in God,son?" The student's voice betrays him and cracks. "Yes, professor. I do." The old man shakes his head sadly. "Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you ever seen your God? " "No, sir.I've never seen Him." "Then tell us if you've ever heard your God?" "No, sir.I have not." "Have you ever felt your God, tasted your God or smelt your God...in fact, do you have any sensory perception of your God whatsoever?" [No answer] "Answer me, please." "No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't." "You're AFRAID... you haven't?" "No, sir." "Yet you still believe in him?" "...yes..." "That takes FAITH!" The professor smiles sagely at the underling."According to the rules of empirical,testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son? Where is your God now?" [The student doesn't answer] "Sit down, please." The Muslim sits...Defeated. Another Muslim raises his hand. "Professor, may I address the class?" The professor turns and smiles."Ah, another Muslim in the vanguard! Come, come, young man. Speak some proper wisdom to the gathering." The Muslim looks around the room. "Some interesting points you are making, sir.Now I've got a question for you.Is there such thing as heat?" "Yes," the professor replies."There's heat." "Is there such a thing as cold?" "Yes, son, there's cold too." "No, sir, there isn't." The professor's grin freezes. The room suddenly goes very cold. The second Muslim continues. "You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold, otherwise we would be able to go colder than 458 - You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it." Silence. A pin drops somewhere in the classroom. "Is there such a thing as darkness, professor?" "That's a dumb question, son. What is night if it isn't darkness? What are you getting at...?" "So you say there is such a thing as darkness?" "Yes..." "You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something, it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word. In reality, Darkness isn't. If it were,you would be able to make darkness darker and give me a jar of it. Can you...give me a jar of darker darkness, professor?" Despite himself,the professor smiles at the young effrontery before him. This will indeed be a good semester. "Would you mind telling us what your point is, young man?" "Yes,professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with and so your conclusion must be in error...." The professor goes toxic. "Flawed...? How dare you...!" "Sir, may I explain what I mean?" The class is all ears. "Explain... oh, explain..." The professor makes an admirable effort to regain control. Suddenly he is affability itself. He waves his hand to silence the class, for the student to continue. "You are working on the premise of duality," the Muslim explains. "That for example there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science cannot even explain a thought. It uses electricity and magnetism but has never seen, much less fully understood them. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life, merely the absence of it." The young man holds up a newspaper he takes from the desk of a neighbor who has been reading it. "Here is one of the most disgusting tabloids this country hosts, professor. Is there such a thing as immorality?" "Of course there is, now look..." "Wrong again, sir.You see, immorality is merely the absence of morality. Is there such thing as injustice? No. Injustice is the absence of justice. Is there such a thing as evil?" The Muslim pauses. "Isn't evil the absence of good?" The professor's face has turned an alarming color. He is so angry he is temporarily speechless. The Muslim continues. "If there is evil in the world, professor, and we all agree there is, then God, if he exists, must be accomplishing a work through the agency of evil. What is that work, God is accomplishing? Islam telhs us it is to see if each one of us will, of our own free will, choose good over evil." The professor bridles. "As a philosophical scientist, I don't view this matter as having anything to do with any choice; as a realist, I absolutely do not recognize the concept of God or any other theological factor as being part of the world equation because God is not observable." "I would have thought that the absence of God's moral code in this world is probably one of the most observable phenomena going," the Muslim replies. "Newspapers make billions of dollars reporting it every week! Tell me, professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?" "If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man,yes, of course I do." "Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?" The professor makes a sucking sound with his teeth and gives his student a silent, stony stare. "Professor. Since no-one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a priest?" "I'll overlook your impudence in the light of our philosophical discussion. Now, have you quite finished?" the professor hisses. "So you don't accept God's moral code to do what is righteous?" "I believe in what is - that's science!" "Ahh! SCIENCE!" the student's face splits into a grin. "Sir, you rightly stated that science is the study of observed phenomena. Science too is a premise which is flawed..." "SCIENCE IS FLAWED..?" the professor splutters. The class is in uproar. The Muslim remains standing until the commotion has subsided. "To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, may I give you an example of what I mean?"The professor wisely keeps silent. The Muslim looks around the room. "Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor's brain?" Theclass breaks out in laughter. The Muslim points towards his elderly, crumbling tutor. "Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's brain... felt the professor's brain, touched or smelt the professor's brain?" No one appears to have done so. The Muslim shakes his head sadly. "It appears no-one here has had any sensory perception of the professor's brain whatsoever. Well, according to the rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science, I DECLARE that the professor has no brain!!" The Muslim sits...because that is what a chair is for!!! ********************************************************************** That Was Why Science Fails To Explain God! ********************************************************************** The Misery Of Modern Science: "Modern science directly implies that the world is organized strictly in accordance with mechanistic principles. There are no purpose principles whatsoever in nature. There are no gods and no designing forces that are rationally detectable? Second, modern science directly implies that there are no inherent moral or ethical laws, no absolute guiding principles for human society. Fourth, we must conclude that when we die and that is the end of us." - One of the contemporary supporters of Darwinism, Prof. William Province, Cornell University "And they say: "What is there but our life in this world? We shall die and we live, and nothing but time can destroy us." But of that they have no knowledge: they merely conjecture!" - The Qur'an, AL-JATHIYA 24 |
| NS |
| Re: Fantastic use of logic |
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| mwishka |
| 06/02/02 at 10:22:01 |
| this was up once before, but i can't find where it was... i had comments on it then that i didn't make, so i'll make them now. you can set up a story to tell anything you like, and by the design of your characters, you can lead your reading audience through it in the way you want. ok, so for a teaching story, this needs to have the wiser person be the wiser ;) and the more sympathetic and the more reasonable. that's ok. BUT there are wrong statements in here that negate any overall effect the story is trying to have. According to the rules of empirical,testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn't exist. this is completely untrue. in fact, science says nothing whatsoever about god. only individuals in science have opinions about god. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?" i know people here don't believe in evolution, but this makes this person out to be uninformed, or insulting. apes, which are distinct from monkeys, are said to be in the chain of evolution leading to humans. not monkeys -- whole different creature. "As a philosophical scientist, I don't view this matter as having anything to do with any choice; as a realist, I absolutely do not recognize the concept of God or any other theological factor as being part of the world equation because God is not observable." do not equate a statement such as this with a general belief by scientists (and this guy sounds like a humanities professor, anyway). don't fall into this "observable" trap - that science is the study of observables. it will get you into trouble if you try to reason with people that way. science, as i've said here before, is a recorded body of observations. you can make an observation on a "non-observable" process, is all you're talking about is "did you see it happen with your own eyes?" if you're thinking that way, again, you're back in science in the 18th, 19th centuries. there are other people besides me here on this board who study or work in science, and i think anyone of them could easily tell you of experiments where what was "observable" was a signal, for example, translated into numerical values on some chosen scale. almost every day i "observe" and record and interpret "evidence" for what my proteins are doing, based on such data. did i see the protein molecules unfold? no way? did i see them re-fold? what do you think? be careful with mis-using other people's ideas. there seem to be a body of muslims somewhere, or all over the place, stuck in this anti-science mode. it will bring you harm! i can't emphasize that enough. and though i've said this and other people here have said this, remember that at the height of islam's glory, there was no hostility to the scientific knowledge or investigation of that time. "SCIENCE IS FLAWED..?" the professor splutters. i want to point out this sentence in particular as one that no one IN science would make. there is, in a way, nothing called "science" that can be "flawed", since it's a field of study, a body of observations. only conclusions based on the results fromthose observations can be, as they sometimes are, flawed. think about what the words used here mean: this is analogous to saying "literature" is flawed. "history" is flawed. "mathematics" are flawed. do you see now how nonsensical it is? THIS is exactly the reason i try very hard not to use any words that have taken on "codeword" meanings. all they can do is mislead you if you don't understand what they literally mean, and show your listener that, in fact, you don't know what you're talking about, and are not conveying anything with any true meaning. the use of this type of language tends to cause miscommunication, to create division rather than dialogue. ok, that's all i'm going to say here. there could be other things like this in this story, but i think the examples i gave tell where i'd find it hard to learn from this, and how it could be taken apart by others. mwishka |
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