A R C H I V E S
Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| A Sisters point of view |
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| Madani |
| 06/08/02 at 10:01:12 |
| As salamu alaykum, As I am designing higher-quality classes/seminars right now (www.alMaghrib.org), I wanted to get the experiences of sisters who may often listen to an Islamic lecture either: (a)from the back of a room or (b)behind a divider or (c) sometimes sitting to the left of a speaker, brothers sitting on the right who can see them. What works? What does not? How is the sound system? What do you lose by not seeing the speaker? How uncomfortable do you get when there are men who could see you by merely changing their angle of vision? How shy would you be to ask a question? In sha Allah, everyone's input is welcoma and valuable to me. The message I am getting from other sisters is that the preferred design is brothers in front, sisters in back without a divider. Jazakum Allahu Khayr - Muhammad Alshareef |
| Re: A Sisters point of view |
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| Anonymous |
| 06/08/02 at 21:33:58 |
| My opinion: (a)from the back of a room It's okay. Not always ideal but tolerable. (b)behind a divider If this is to be tolerated, it MUST include a tv screen so women can see what's going on, an excellent sound system so we can hear, and a microphone for women to ask questions. Anything less, I find offensive and degrading. And sadly, the vast majority of the time it's impossible to follow a talk, much less contribute by asking questions, due to horrible sound systems. Also the women's area should be clean, well lit, and comfortable. No dark, dirty corners with ugly curtains on the wall. (c) sometimes sitting to the left of a speaker, brothers sitting on the right who can see them. I have no problem with this because everyone sees me when I walk down the street. The people who tend to get "upset" about this are people who think it's "haram" for a man to see them (as if no one sees them in the grocery store, for example) or those who want to remove their clothing and/or breast-feed with total breast exposure during a talk. The other issue is, quite frankly, when women are given a room to themselves, some women think this is the time to chat about their favorite brownie recipe and disturb the talk for all women there. When they can see the speaker, they wouldn't dare do such a thing. Having a babysitting room is a good thing, or a room/area for women with young children (some Christian churches do this so the women can hear and see without worrying that they will disturb those who didn't bring small children); but some people should use common sense and not bring their vomitting baby to a 4 hour lecture, for example. |
| Re: A Sisters point of view |
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| jannah |
| 06/08/02 at 21:46:04 |
| [slm] Welcome (back) to the board brother Madani!! You don't know how much I appreciate that you ask about this!! Usually no one asks sisters and we end up wherever people put us. Well I would have to agree with the anonymous sister here. I cannot STAND being in a class atmosphere behind a "purdah", curtain, whatever. I mean to me.. what's the point? I might as well ask someone to tape it for me and listen to it at home. Same goes for watching the speech through a monitor... umm let someone tape it then, what's the point of being there? I think there's a lot to be said of live learning from a teacher. You really strive to understand the message when you're there. You're paying attention listening to it live. You can interact with the speaker and ask questions. Usually you're taking notes when it's live. As for being behind the brothers, if there are only a few brothers, say a class of 10-15 I think it's tolerable. Our Seerah class is set up this way and we have about eight tables with the sisters at the back two so it's not too bad. You can see clearly to the speaker and hear him as well. The only thing is, if there are a lot of brothers you don't see anything, your view is blocked and you tend to get distracted by what the brothers in front of you are doing. Now for sitting side by side. I think if there is a good couple feet between the two and the teacher is up front behind a table or something, this is ideal. That way the sisters that really need to see the speaker to get the full impact of the class can sit up front. Other sisters who prefer to kind of be in the back can do that as well. PS. [quote]The other issue is, quite frankly, when women are given a room to themselves, some women think this is the time to chat about their favorite brownie recipe and disturb the talk for all women there. When they can see the speaker, they wouldn't dare do such a thing.[/quote] that is really funny, but so true. it happens here all the time. we have a L shaped room thing going on, brothers in one L part of the room and the sisters in the other. And off of the sisters there's a room for like mothers with kids and stuff and if you go in there.. everyones usually talking and not paying attention because it's so easy to when you're not actually there in front of the speaker. |
| Re: A Sisters point of view |
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| Madani |
| 06/09/02 at 10:21:39 |
| In madinah, I once went to a sisters Halaqah and sat in the brother's section listening. I could not see the speaker, the sisters could. That was one of the few times in my life experiencing a lecture like that. I knew that many sisters have to go through that every time they attend a lecture. I could never have asked a question. And if I really wanted to, I would have an Indiana Jones adventure to get the question to wherever the speaker was. I was the only guy there. Maybe one other guy occasionally. So I could see how unattractive that kind of a setting is. They interviewed the guy who played Spider-man in the recent movie. He was saying how difficult it was for him to act when he had the mask on. It was so hard to be believing when no one could see his facial movements. That was a very interesting concept. Ok, so the feeling I get is brothers to left/sisters to right is an ideal situation right? What about in a long period course (like the one I'm organizing). There are a lot of brothers and sisters who need to get married and often classes like this are scouting expeditions. It's hard to concentrate as a speaker when you see some sick guy at the back unashamed to lower his gaze. Some sisters have told me they would feel uncomfortable with a side-by-side setting unless there was a pardah in between. Your thoughts? - Muhammad Alshareef www.AlMaghrib.org |
| 06/09/02 at 10:23:20 |
| Madani |
| Re: A Sisters point of view |
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| Sr_Mariam |
| 06/09/02 at 12:34:12 |
| [slm] Firstly, you know that you won't please everyone right. Now, the side by side thing won't work because, if its a long course, then sisters in Nikaab for example won't feel comfrotable having it on all day, it does get hot and uncomfortable, and it sad but brothers eyes do wonder, and it does become a scouting Expedeition, espeacially if your targeting the young for this course. Having a purdah but no screen to see the speaker, in my experience, u lose concentration, and u tend to switch off sometimes. I think that if the speaker is male, then put a purdah in the middle, the speaker should sit at the front and the purdah should end, just before the speakers table.so that both sides can see him, and the brothers and sisters will be segregated. Any sisters with nikaab should either sit at the back or right near the partition, if only i could draw a picture, cos u might not understand what mean, inshallah u do, hope that helps |
| Re: A Sisters point of view |
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| mwishka |
| 06/09/02 at 13:29:39 |
| i hope you don't mind if i comment on one thing above - it's not so directly about the seminar arrangement as about a suggestion for planning the design of masjids or permanent study/lecture areas. anonymous mentioned babysitting rooms. what she meant, i think, are the soundproof triple-glass windowed "crying rooms" that always used to be built into the back of catholic churches, at the back of the nave. these rooms were such a good idea, included in the building design because it is a sin for a catholic to miss mass in congregation unless they are too ill to travel to the church. of course, in catholic churches fathers as well as mothers stayed in these rooms with their children, and any parent or sibling could at any time during the mass take a child to the crying room rather than have to leave if the child had become a distraction. the sound of the mass was wired into the room. i don't know why this wonderful idea has been cast aside, or not made more use of - i think it's a sad loss. mwishka |
| Re: A Sisters point of view |
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| AyeshaZ |
| 06/09/02 at 18:04:14 |
Asalamu Alykum Wa rhamtuAllah, I like the idea of where if you have a divider or purdah and both sides can see the speaker. Also i feel that when you have large groups of people, for ex an auditorim setting there is sooo much distance btw sisters and bros that one feels comfortable. JazakumAllahu Khair |
| Re: A Sisters point of view |
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| Madani |
| 06/09/02 at 18:29:37 |
| Hmm..what if the lecture is interactive and there is a pardah in between the men and women (who are sitting side by side, they both can see the speaker but cannot see each other). When a brother or sister is talking, the Pardah impedes the listening. Thus, if a brother is talking really long, the sisters would just be sitting restless. Thoughts anyone? |
| Re: A Sisters point of view |
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| BroHanif |
| 06/09/02 at 18:50:54 |
| [slm], I think in terms of listening it depends how its structured, for example, whats thr room like, can sound bounce off the wall ? are there enough satelite speakers or is there only one speaker residing at the front of the room...??, whats the speaker like can he deliver his voice round the room or is it in a single monotone ?. Or do you think you can get a large projection screen ? I'm all for keeping a purdah between the bros and the sistaz as its easy on both parties and perhaps theres no straying of the eyes as well. Personally I think when the bros go to a confrence they forget to realise that some sistaz have to keep a niqab on and during the summer days its not easy(perhaps the bros should experience wearing one!). Do you think its really fair on them that there is no purdah in between.? [quote]When a brother or sister is talking, the Pardah impedes the listening. Thus, if a brother is talking really long, the sisters would just be sitting restless. [/quote] Well there should be haya involved otherwise perhaps there might be more harm than good commited. Perhaps you could set the time limit for the speaker to just half an hour. Anyway just mee thoughts.. Salaams Hanif |
| Re: A Sisters point of view |
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| sofia |
| 06/09/02 at 22:36:27 |
| As-salaamu 'alaikum wa rahmatullah Recently, I was at a masjid (hadn't been there before) in NY with my parents at maghrib time. The men were praying/sit up front, and I gathered the back room was meant for the sisters. My mother and I walked in and sat down at the back of the masjid waiting for the 'iqaama, thinking, 'hey, maybe since there's barely anyone here (we were the only women, not that it matters), we can get away with not having to pray in the back room.' Boy, were we wrong. Right after the 'iqaama was called, the Imam actually got on the microphone and said, "Please tell the sisters to go into the back room." (as if we couldn't hear him). Here we were, completely covered, 50 ft away from the nearest male, with huge pillars separating us from them, and we were basically being told to go away (ok, maybe I'm being a bit dramatic, but hello, undue attention put on us, anyhow). Now, I've been to plenty of completely separated masaajid (most of which, I actually prefer to non-separated ones), but this was ridiculous. I was never put in that situation before. Let's just say I was making a lot of 'istighfaar during prayer in the back room, where we could only hear the Imam due to the mike. So here's the thing sisters have issues with: Being forced to act "invisible". Another story, I had recently taken a friend of mine (who had never been to a separated masjid) to Al-Huda in MD not too long ago, and got the sense that she was a bit uncomfortable with the divider in the musallah. After she made her opinion known (she's a bit more comfortable with an interactive environment, I think), I tried to get her to think from the persective of sisters who would be more comfortable with the divider, or that some masaajid are characterized by more modesty and separation between the males/females (which is what I love about Al-Huda), and that some just aren't set up (qibla direction) for men and women to sit side by side or even front/back without a divider. Still, she wasn't feeling it. But alhamdulillah, she really liked the sisters halaqah and the fact that there are so many niqaabi sisters who are involved, active, etc, masha'Allah. Now to your question: IF there has to be a divider, I think it's a good idea to have a partial divider so that bros/sisters who are not comfortable without one, can move over to where they can't be seen/or see (I'm thinking in terms of Al-Huda). It's also helpful during prayer to see the Imam, because unfortunately, can't avoid the occasional technical problem w/ the sound system or when women enter the prayer late and don't know what part of the prayer everyone's at, etc. In terms of classes, yes, it's helpful to see the Imam/board, facial expressions, etc. I don't think it's as important to see the Imam, as it is to be able to participate in the class; i.e., get as much from it as the brothers. Personally, I'm just as comfortable in a classroom environment where the brothers are in the front, sisters in the back, but all within earshot/view of the Imam/teacher. Some may disagree with me. You'll likely hear a lot of varied views, but the main thing is this: Yes, modesty is a good thing (and sisters are usually more in tune with this, Allahu'alim). But no, that doesn't mean we're invisible. [Salaam to Sister A, btw] |
| 06/10/02 at 12:52:00 |
| sofia |
| Re: A Sisters point of view |
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| Madani |
| 06/09/02 at 23:10:50 |
| Jazakillaahu Khayr sister Sofia. You said: [quote]Another story, I had recently taken a friend of mine (who had never been to a separated masjid) to Al-Huda in MD not too long ago, and got the sense that she was a bit uncomfortable with the divider in the musallah. [/quote] I work at AlHuda and I know what you mean. When we have classes in the Musallah, many a time I've wanted to give a chance for sisters to come into the brothers section and sit in the back if they wanted to. The Musallah, alhamdulillah, is very big and I could get the brothers to sit in a respectable manner facing forward and not in their direction. What I've seen happen is that these classes in the Musallah are seldomly attended by the women, my guess is that it is because of the pardah. We have other women-only classes taught by men and they are well attended. But if the same Shaykh were to give that class in the Musallah with the Pardah, the same crowd would not come. One time I sat in a brothers lecture near the Pardah, and all I could hear was chatting about: [quote]...their favorite brownie recipe [/quote] I felt kind of sad at how distracted they were from the lesson. I sat there thinking how could sisters like this be more engaged in the class. To broHanif: [quote]Perhaps you could set the time limit for the speaker to just half an hour. [/quote] What I meant was when someone 'other then' the speaker is speaking, people in the audience. I think everyone can hear the speaker, but what happens when the class is interactive and a sister or brother in the audience is making a comment. No one will hear them except the people on their side of the Pardah. If there was no Pardah, how serious does the flirting and diverted gazes become? Anyone? - Muhammad Alshareef www.alMaghrib.org |
| Re: A Sisters point of view |
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| sofia |
| 06/09/02 at 23:57:21 |
| Wa 'alaikumus-salaam wa rahmatullah, Is this do-able for Al-Huda? (would ask offline, but this may be helpful for others): Set up the divider perpendicularly to the qiblah direction, starting right before the sisters entrance (so sisters can enter in the sisters' section), and go almost all the way (but not quite) to the other side of the masjid (or even "staggering" it a bit, so the brothers' area isn't taken up too much by the split, if that makes sense). By "not quite" all the way, I mean, leaving a bit of open/non-divider area for sisters who feel comfortable to sit behind the brothers. What I mean is, still have the sisters sit in the sisters' section (some on the far left without the divider separating them from the brothers' section, and some on the far right where there is a divider), and brother's sitting in the brothers' section, but with the divider angled differently. Sure, the bros wouldn't have a back wall to lean on (all the way across), but they don't need that, do they? And I take it the brothers' section is big enough (never saw it, although I've been to Al-Huda many times, and met your wife, which is why I requested u to give her my salaam). Regarding your last question: [I'm thinking in terms of the class rooms) Side-by-side with no purdah = not optimal for everyone. Front/back with no purdah = not a big deal for most, but maybe more so for niqaabis who may want to take their niqaab off, or for those who are more comforpable with separation (altho s/t tells me that these individuals would opt for separated sessions; female teachers for females). If the sessions will be in the musallah, see above perpendicular-divider suggestion. JazaakAllahu khairun for asking. |
| 06/10/02 at 12:54:31 |
| sofia |
| Re: A Sisters point of view |
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| AyeshaZ |
| 06/10/02 at 00:40:50 |
| [quote author=Madani link=board=sis;num=1023544873;start=0#10 date=06/09/02 at 23:10:50] If there was no Pardah, how serious does the flirting and diverted gazes become? Anyone? - Muhammad Alshareef [/quote] I think it solely depends on the group of people. If the bros and sisters are there to flirt well than they will and if there intentions are for learning they won't look :) |
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| jannah |
| 06/10/02 at 01:22:12 |
| [slm] you know what bro.. i was thinking about this and i don't think you'll ever come to a consensus on it. i know it would be nice to have a standard but it seems like every community and group is different. some people are horrified if the class is even mixed (ie sofia's experience.. and why do i get the deja vu feeling i've been to that same mosque ;) ) and others go to university and participate in MSA and work with brothers and sisters respectfully. It would be odd to all of the sudden have a class with a purdah and ppl walk out into the hall and see each other again like normal! so i think your best bet would be to ask the contact people of wherever you are going to, brothers AND sisters and ask what what would be comfortable with them. if you were coming here for example sisters to the right , brothers to the left would be best... because our weekend seminars are like this and it's quite normal for us to have these in large classrooms. in smaller classroom settings like 10-15 we have the brothers in front, sisters in back, but the concept of a curtain or separate room is like kind of foreign to us. so my 2 1/2 lira. go with the 'urf of the ppl ;D |
| Re: A Sisters point of view |
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| sis |
| 06/10/02 at 06:53:27 |
| alsalamu alaykum wa rhmat Allah wa barakatuhu jaza Allah khayr bro madani for thinking about the sis's ;D -bro's in front sis's in back this is really good..and i agree that it is better for small classes but depending on how the area is set up...it can work for big lectures too...about a month ago there was a lecture at my uni in an auditorium that seats 400..the sisters were in the back and we could see and hear very well and we were completely comfy alhamdulllah -sis's on one side and bro's on the other i'm used to the MSA setting as well.. it feels normal and i find sisters can ask questions better when they can be seen by the speaker....but unfortunately just having one bro with roaming eyes will ruin it all.....this has happened once or twice before and sisters just end up not wanting to contribute or not wanting to be there. -a divider in between where sis's and bro's can both see the speaker i've been to a couple of lectures like this and it works fairly well, satisfying everyone..but when people in the audience speak or ask questions, sound gets muffled -sisters completely separated this just doesn't work ..and plenty of reasons have already been mentionned walsalamu alaykum wa rhmat Allah wa barakatuhu |
| Re: A Sisters point of viewWe just need some atten |
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| banjum |
| 06/10/02 at 09:32:09 |
| [slm] I couldn't agree more with Sofia about men/women alike trying to make the women folk in Islam look invisible. It makes you want to think what is the purpose of hijab then. If Allah really wanted women to be invisible, He would surely have commanded women not to be permitted outside their homes or be behind a screen at all times. But He didn't, so the whole point then of hijab is so the women folk are able to interact with the world and be in it. And so hence they can be seen in a class room setting or other facilities where in something as good as seeking knowledge is being sought. We, alhumdulliah, in Islam have just as much a right to comfortable and clean facilities as the men do. Just one more point insha-Allah. Just recently I have had the opportunity to substitute teach and observed a wonderful thing. The power of a teacher over a student. How miraculously a student will enthusiastically work and learn if the teacher showers a little attention towards their way. It's like the sun and plant analogy. As everyone knows the sisters today (I mean collectively) are in a sad state concerning knowledge of our deen. There is a hadith of the Rasool (pbuh) that goes something like this, "the knowledge of a nation can be seen through the women." So educators of the deen such as yourself, Bro. Muhammad, need to look towards the women seriously and see what could be done to better our situation. What you are doing alhumdulliah is a good step forward. Like the sister above said you cant please everyone. But us sisters we are generally very accomadating. So really it does not matter behind a purdah or in the back, as long as the educators are seeing to it that we, the women folk, are given a chance to interact as well. We also just need some attention too. masalams, anjum |
| Re: A Sisters point of view |
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| The_Naeem |
| 06/10/02 at 11:24:17 |
| Salaams, I know I am not a sister, and the last time I posted something on the akhwat cafe the system crashed, so it looks like I havent learned my lesson. But here we go. I remember I was at a camp one time and these sisters where doing some kinda presentation that needed them to be screened from the brothers, but we could totally hear what's going. Wallahi as soon as the curtain went up, we paid no attention to what was going on. Maybe because I am a guy, and I am just use to having front row seat at the khutabah, no problem. But not seeing the person giving a speech, when the speaker is clearly there in front of you, it would never work for me. I am glad someone is taking this point serious, and this is just one aspect of our dealings with women. My mom use to tell me all the time that before she was muslim, and that was in the 70's, she was a African Queen. And when she became Muslim she was reduced to a 'bint'. By the grace of Allah alone, the example set by our Prophet(ASWS) our sisters continue to see the Nurrullah and stay with islam. My hope is that after this research is done, we could get some engineers, architects, interior designers, and really make a room setup ideal for learning in a mixed setting. I am a firm believer in form and function. Don't just throw some clunky old partition up there, take some time to do it right and make it look nice. You walk into the masjid and you look like your back at work, in a cubicle. |
| Re: A Sisters point of view |
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| Madani |
| 06/10/02 at 15:36:03 |
| Jannah you said: [quote]so my 2 1/2 lira. go with the 'urf of the ppl [/quote] Jazakillaahu Khayr for your input. In sha Allah, our next alMaghrib seminar in October (in sha Allah) will be on Usool Al-Fiqh. You'll get to learn all about 'urf. I totally agree with you. If there is a Masjid whose community are totally comfortable with a certain setting, I think the speaker needs to work with that and use Hikmah in knowing the most important issues to address. I just wanted to say that I have experienced first hand that the desire to learn by the sisters totally blows away the desire from the brothers. That's an undeniable fact. At the AlMaghrib registration, 90% of those applying are sisters. Actually, my websites are designed between me and a sister. With the oceans of brothers studying computer science out there, go figure - it is a sister that finally takes up the challange of helping the da'wah. (Ex: Jannah.org) Alhamdulillah, it is for this reason that I take the learning experience of the sisters very seriously. I hope, in sha Allah, that they would be extremely comfortable attending an AlMaghrib double-weekend accredited intensive. In sha Allah, the brothers may see the sisters example and try to work hard on studying Islam. But if not, at least we are preparing excellent mothers who will make a difference in the boys of the next generation, in sha Allah. I don't mean to put down the brothers, it is only my wish that we - the brothers - work harder. May Allah ta'ala forgive me if I've said anything wrong. [glow=red,2,300]Jazak Allahu Khayr everyone for your input.[/glow] - Muhammad Alshareef www.AlMaghrib.org |
| 06/10/02 at 16:24:30 |
| jannah |
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| mwishka |
| 06/10/02 at 16:56:35 |
| um, the direction this discussion went raised a question in my mind that i keep wondering about, so i'm going to ask it here. i keep hearing this comment that the sisters take their studies more seriously. now, we all know (yes, yes i hear the rumbles already) that women are generally better students than men anyway - in my own high school class of 440, there was one male #11, and then no more for almost another 10 down ;) - but what i'm really wondering here is if for muslim men right out of high school or college the need to begin accumulating a monetary mahr overrides all other pursuits, and becomes an obsession and a draining endeavor - whether or not that gift needs to be money is a whole different question... mwishka (i say forget the money boys....i know the purpose of it, but if you're honorable and of high integrity, give her the better gift of your love and the prettiest weed you can find at your feet as you get into your car to drive away to be married... don't sacrifice other parts of your life to raise some ridiculous amount that is no measure of anything.....) |
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| The_Naeem |
| 06/10/02 at 17:19:02 |
| salaams, I dunno man, I think it starts before graduation. The most active people in any muslim community are the sisters. Ask any organiser of a fund raising dinner or some other activities. Brother are so preoccupied with dunya. I see it all the time. I wish it was because they are preparing themselves for marriage. |
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| muslimah853 |
| 06/23/02 at 09:01:15 |
| [slm] Brother Madani I don't know if you're still checking this thread, but I'd like to add my two cents. I too, am very glad you're taking the time to ask this question, unfortunately alot of people don't. Allah has blessed me with the fortune to be involved in the same kind of work, locally and nationally, and so I'd just like to offer a suggestion or two based on what has worked for us in the past. Room setup--we always offer the brothers and sisters equal view of the speaker, period. For all the reasons people already mentioned, like enhancing attention span and others, particularly if the subject matter is one which requires alot of mental energy (usul al fiqh is such a subject, in my opinion). We have done both sisters in back and the side by side thing with a partition, and the side by side without a partition if there is sufficient space in the room to make it comfortable. Because our programs have been done in different locations, the dimensions of the room have usually dictated how we set up. In terms of the wandering eye thing, and the irrelevant talk, and other such distractions, one of the main things we have done is to have adab talks as part of the orientation to the classes, in addition to handing students a list of things we expect from them while attending. At some of our programs the whole "You're not here to look for a spouse, and you absolutely *must* respect sisters' privacy" speech has been given. We try to make it gentle, of course, but absolutely clear that we want everyone to benefit, and we strive to cultivate a certain atmosphere to facilitate that. So everyone needs to mind their P's and Q's. Generally, Allah has blessed us with success in this area--though there have been a few exceptions over the years. We've also tried to maintain an open atmosphere, making sure that if a student has a complaint, about another student even, we should be alerted and we try to deal with that. We also make it clear from the door that students can be removed from the program for disruption--if it comes to that. As I said, Allah is the Most Kind, and generally, this hasn't been a huge problem for us even though the majority of our students are young unmarried people. Ditto for talking during sessions, we let them know that this is a no-no, and generally it helps. Believe it or not, for the local programs, we've never had to give this talk. Praise be to Allah. Some of the programs we put together have an application process, so that's also something you might want to consider. How rigorous you want to make it, if you have one at all, depends, but I do find that it helps people to take the thing more seriously, hence they come to the sessions in a certain frame of mind, and it also helps you to have a bit of a profile on the group of Muslims you are serving. I pray to Allah that this was at least a little helpful. Your sister |
| Re: A Sisters point of view |
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| Madani |
| 06/25/02 at 03:53:05 |
| Jazakillaahu Khayr muslimah853 for your comments. They are appreciated. I agree with you, it would be good to write down the rules and hand it out to the students when they arrive (maybe even before). Y'know, :-[ I just thought of a way to spark this thread into the 'hot flaming folder' zone. You said: [quote]"You're not here to look for a spouse, and you absolutely *must* respect sisters' privacy" speech has been given. [/quote] Is it wrong for someone to come to a seminar looking for a spouse? If it isn't, then how would someone go about doing it? Hmm .. thoughts anyone? - Muhammad Alshareef www.alMaghrib.org |
| 06/25/02 at 03:54:47 |
| Madani |
| Re: A Sisters point of view |
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| jannah |
| 06/25/02 at 04:27:25 |
| [slm] Hey!! We should be asking you that question!! Hmm I think as the hadith said you will receive what you intended. If you come to look for a spouse then that's what you might get. If you came looking to increase your knowledge of the deen and receive some reward in doing so then inshallah that's what you will get. |
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| The_Naeem |
| 06/25/02 at 10:28:44 |
| salaams, I'll say this much about comming to find a spouse at a speech or class. I guess it gets annoying sometimes for sister's if they come to a class or speech and instead of gaining loads and loads of knowledge they get loads and loads of proposals or wandering eyes. But listen. Even though we have so many muslims in the states these days, it's tough finding a spouse. A brother or sister may grow up in a community where the Islamic Adab isn't ahered to or the youth were not taught their deen. So the seeker looking to get married may feel he\she has no prospects in their community. The seeker is looking for a spiritually like minded potential spouse, whose working to improve themselves. So a seeker goes where those people are, where ever you find them. If it's in a class an hour away, annual conference, or a weekend seminar. I mean even the kuffar say stuff like, you won't find a girl to take home to mom at the bar, you find them at church. Or you go where good people congregate. So I don't fault people comming to an event to find their spouse. But I think the way classes and speeches are run today, kills this potential match making. There was a time where a sister would ask her on question on the microphone, and if it was like a really insightful, well verse, intelligent question, you might ask your connection on the other side of the room, who that sister was and what is she about. That almost never happens anymore. But I think like everything, all things get spoiled by people with bad intentions. Even the loosest of persons know when it's time to get married, they want the best. So now these loose people fill up the lecture halls and classrooms faster then those good people who are seeking knowledge, and those good bro/sis seeking a potential spouse. salaams and keep the faith |
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| Kathy |
| 06/25/02 at 11:25:36 |
| [quote]Is it wrong for someone to come to a seminar looking for a spouse? If it isn't, then how would someone go about doing it? Hmm .. thoughts anyone? [/quote] :-[hmm... the way i see it, [i](when going to a seminar)[/i]one of them ~knowledge or spouse~, is like getting icing on the cake! ;)You can decide which one is the cake and which one is the icing.... :-)Back in my single days- I did "case out the joint" for a perspective spouse. You can learn alot from the type of questions and comments a man makes at a seminar. Also, you can learn alot by watching his mannerisms and behavior before and after the seminar. |
| 06/25/02 at 11:26:42 |
| Kathy |
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| muslimah853 |
| 06/25/02 at 13:19:45 |
| [slm] Okay...I'm too lazy right now to cut and paste :P... but just to address the general issue of searching for spouses at classes and such. I absolutely understand the dilemma single people face, trying to find like minded, pious, intelligent mates, and the often frustrating lack of candidates and so on... and I don't think it's wrong for a person to kind of scope the place out if they're looking to get married. However, from an organizational point of view, I have to be responsible for *everyone's* comfort at the programs I'm involved in, and while some sisters can shrug off a proposal, for other people that would be extremely uncomfortable (Believe it or not, one of the few problematic cases we've had is a *sister* making the brothers uncomfortable) ???. I don't want to stop people from fulfilling half of their deen, but we also cannot have the whole thing turn into a meat/meet :) market. In short, I don't mind people going about it in an extremely discreet and indirect way, and in fact at least one couple I know of has been married after meeting at a program. I also know of many people who are actively looking while out at events, classes, and such. Hey, I'll even admit to having noticed a brother or two at events in the past before I was married. But even when I was in active search mode, I never made it the *purpose* of attending a class. And, again, from an organizers' POV, it is very important to me to protect the learning atmosphere of the things we do, to have people concentrate mainly on their studies while there, and to have students feel that they can come, learn, interact with the teachers without worrying about if someone's checking them out, etc. Just my two cents. |
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| muslimah853 |
| 06/25/02 at 13:33:52 |
| [slm] Okay...I didn't address Br. Madani's question of "how". What I have personally done for people (as a friend, not as an organizer) is to act as an intermediary...there is a brother right now who lives in my community and knows my family well, he is actively looking and has asked me to let him know about any potentials...so I have talked with a few sisters who I had the chance to interact with and gotten to know on a personal level if they were interested in marriage, blah blah, if they are, well, I know someone, etc. Again, this is only with students who I've developed a personal relationship with, so I'm acting in the capacity of friend, not program facilitator. If they are, I will pass their guardian's info on to the brother. Once, at a program I was attending, a brother came up to me and asked about my friend who was with me, if she was interested, and he gave me his contact for her father ...I mentioned it to her and she had her father call him and tell him she wasn't interested. He was very respectful about it, and my friend was okay with that, because she was looking too (she just wansn't interested in *him*) -- but for some people that would be uncomfortable. I think there are other discreet ways to do it without compromising the integrity of the program or making people feel uncomfortable. One just has to be creative! |
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| Aabidah |
| 06/25/02 at 14:19:12 |
| [slm] [quote] Is it wrong for someone to come to a seminar looking for a spouse? If it isn't, then how would someone go about doing it? Hmm .. thoughts anyone? [/quote] The first side of my answer: A brother/sister comes to a conference with an intention to acquire knowledge, but if Allahu SubhanaHu Wata'ala has decreed for him/her, then he/she will meet their future spouse. However, going to a conference with the sole purpose of looking for a potential spouse, in my opinion, is wrong. The Qur'an even says to men and women to lower our gazes. Believe me, I don't remember to lower my gaze all the time, but Alhamdulillah i'm working on it. My point is that if we're supposed to be watchful of our eyes, then how can we go to a conference with the intention of looking for a potential spouse. I understand that a person just doesn't look at their physical body, also pays attention to their manners and how they speak, etc, but to me, it's something not *totally* right. Now, the other side of my answer: I agree that everyone wants to find a brother/sister who is spiritually level and is striving to be better InshaAllah, and a good way to look for a potential spouse is at places where there are large crowds. I mean, when I go to a conference, I look around too, and sometimes I don't even notice myself doing it, subhanAllah. But, then how do we meet others who are also trying to be better, etc. In conclusion, my answer is that it's okay to attend a conf with an idea in your mind that maybe you'll see someone whom you are interested in, but attending with the sole purpose of looking for someone, is not right. Please forgive me for writing so much. Jazakum Allahu Khayran. [wlm] Betul |
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| The_Naeem |
| 06/25/02 at 15:34:09 |
| salaams, Well by Allah's mercy I was never the kind who was, in search of, at a conference. If it happend it happend, I like things to flow naturally, not try to seek it out. But I'm sorry, I have to disagree that it's wrong for a person to come to a conference seeking a spouse. If you want honey you go where the bees live, you don't go to a bird's nest. And if a person has pure intentions and good adab, what's the problem? Everyone dosent have the auntie hookups, a realtive to work as a go between, a married couple to help them out. How are these people suppose to get married, ISNA Matrimonials? Especially in the case of people who are children of first generation muslims, or worse a person who recently took shahdah. Don't these people have an equal right to a spouse too? |
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| Madani |
| 06/25/02 at 19:44:59 |
| See I told you we’d enter the ‘red hot flaming folder’ zone. [] There are two topics that will always get people talking: Marriage and Jinns (is there a relationship between the two? Hmm…) Ok, one thing the proponents of ‘it’s-ok-to-find-a-wife-in-a-conference’ forgot is that not ALL women at a conference are eligible. Our mothers are there, our wives, not to mention a host of other Muharramaat. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't allow some sicko to sit there staring at all the women, not fearing Allah. I grew up in MYNA conferences, local camps, national camps, local conferences, national conferences (as I’m sure a lot of people on this board have) – and I have seen first hand how ‘shopping’ for wives at Islamic events often goes in the wrong direction. Once, some guy came to AlHuda school (where I reside), literally cruising the hallways looking for wives. When he spotted someone who ‘looked’ good (he had no idea about character) he would send in a sister to propose for him. In one day, he proposed to a half dozen sisters - MY WIFE included. Needless to say, if I saw some guy looking at my wife – proposing to her even, I don’t care if he needs to get married, he needs to work hard on finding the proper channels to do it. If he persisted in his ways … Y’know, Allah help him. Something interesting you mentioned Kathy: [quote]You can learn alot from the type of questions and comments a man makes at a seminar. [/quote] I’ll tell you a little secret from the guys side. They don’t act like that when the sisters are not around. In the recent MSA conference at Temple, we had an all-brothers session and I point-blank asked them the question, “Would we act the way we are acting if the sisters were here?” The answer was a collective “NO!” Another secret (maybe it’s not that big a secret) is that when some sister raises her hand to ask a question, the guys use that as an opportunity to catch a glimpse of their ‘object of affection.’ At that same brothers session I just mentioned, we - the guys - admitted to this. I was once giving a lecture late night in a lobby in Madinah to young brothers and sisters. People were sitting in all types of directions, on couches and on the floor. Imagine my sadness as I witnessed the brothers blank out to what I was saying and just stare droolingly at one of the sisters. I thought to myself, subhan Allah, I’m in charge of this lecture and I let this happen. So that’s a few thoughts so that we understand it's not just cut-and-dry. I have other stuff, but let me hear your comments first. - Muhammad Alshareef www.alMaghrib.org PS I'm totally for Muslims finding spouses and getting married, may Allah ta'ala help everyone who needs a spouse. I'm just afraid that we are not helping people in the correct manner, leaving them to do the spouse-searching in a dodgy way. |
| 06/25/02 at 19:51:51 |
| Madani |
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| Barr |
| 06/26/02 at 11:54:45 |
| Assalamua'laikum warahmatullah :) Today, a sister called me at work, and I could tell that she was in the verge of crying... she is 44, and single. About a month ago, I could hear the voice of sadness with a tinge of hopelessness... from a sister who is 32, and single. Marriage came into the conversation. Though it's just for about 5 minutes, on each of the occasion above, I could sense such sorrowful sentiments in the very few words which they spoke. It breaks my heart and I feel so helpless. And what is sadder is when the community is in near void of a support system to help people get married. And I wonder... would brothers act the same way if they know that they have a good and reliable support system. Would they still have wandering eyes and ugly adaab? Is it a matter of not having a system that works, or just a sign of weakness of iman? Would both be correlated? Then, perhaps maybe, we need to deal with both of them – provision of a suitable channel to find a spouse and education. Maybe, if the topic of Baitul Muslim be part of a camp? Or maybe having a planned and co-ordinated effort by an organisation? A programme for singles, that would have both tarbiyah and social aspects. Provide an opportunity for interaction, yet within the boundaries of Islam. Maybe, have a program facilitator for a group discussion? Hmmm… maybe like mixed halaqas or workshop. Or maybe, have interest groups for those who join this. Or community projects done by a group of singles? In this way, singles can contribute to the community, yet at the same time interact with adaab, and see who would be suitable. And there would be a facilitator present to help singles find out more about someone whom they are interested in and arrange a meeting, where they can have a proper taaruf session. And all this, can be conducted in a more Islamically controlled environment. Allahua’lam.. I guess this would also depend on how strict or relaxed a person is with male-female interaction. I get very jittery with programmes for singles, coz, there are a lot of grey areas that one is threading. Though we do want people to get married, but maintaining adab can be a task. How far would people interact with proper adab? How does it feel to come to an activity whose main purpose is to find a spouse? Would singles actually come? If they don’t talk and meet people, how would they know a particular person may be suitable for them… particularly, for people whose not comfortable with matchmaking services? How far would we be successful in the tarbiyah aspects if wot they want to do is just to find a spouse? How far can we ensure security for both parties? How do we ensure that programmes are organised in a blessed manner, safe from fitnah, when organising male-female-interaction programmes? Or do we not organize such programmes at all? If not.. then, what is the alternative? And what would be the consequences? Or maybe... we could have a multi-prong strategy, where, we empower those who can help singles find a spouse, like their friends, family and teachers to gain skills and knowledge? I don't know... Just my thoughts Allahua’lam :-) |
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| mwishka |
| 06/26/02 at 13:56:50 |
| And there would be a facilitator present to help singles find out more about someone whom they are interested in and arrange a meeting, where they can have a proper taaruf session. sis barr, what's this? (very) ignorant mwishka (as usual) |
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| Kathy |
| 06/26/02 at 16:57:37 |
| [slm] [quote]...the guys....don’t act like that when the sisters are not around. ... I point-blank asked them the question, “Would we act the way we are acting if the sisters were here?” The answer was a collective “NO!” [/quote] How do they act differently? What my comment meant was the type of question and how he asks it tells alot about a person. Is he humble, argumentative, preachy? Will he accept advice.. or say "yeah but..." What kind of questions is he asking? Does it have anything to do with the topic? Is he inflaming the discussion? Is it basic knowledge questions? [quote]Another secret (maybe it’s not that big a secret) is that when some sister raises her hand to ask a question, the guys use that as an opportunity to catch a glimpse of their ‘object of affection.’ At that same brothers session I just mentioned, we - the guys - admitted to this. [/quote] Maybe that is why so many speakers ask for the questions to be written and handed in. |
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| Anonymous |
| 07/03/02 at 12:30:59 |
| [slm] My opinion is slightly different. I prefer being in another room with a TV screen. I'm not comfortable sitting behind the men. There is just added comfort when you are behind a curtain, some sisters wear niqaab and it's more comfortable to breathe, etc. I understand the same niqaabi sisters go to school where they cover in class, but there you don't have a choice. A mosque or Islamic center should be a place where everyone can be at ease. I fail to realize the difference between sitting behind the men and being in a room with a TV in terms of gaining knowledge. Fine, you can get a tape, but that's not the same as being there (even if in a different room). Either way, the goal of attending is to gain knowledge, and this can be done in a different room, wallahu Alam. I'm open to any counter points to this please, I know many sisters feel differently, so please sisters express your feelings, I'm very curious :) To answer the main question: -preference: other room with TV -main problem with lectures is the speaker system, many times the sisters have a really hard time hearing the lecture -if it's intensive learning, I would think many women wouldn't bring kids because they are there for intensive learning themselves. I could be wrong. -figure out a good system for Questions and Answers, usually what happens on our sisters side it that we write down the questions, and then we track down a young kid to take it to the mens side. Suggestion for this: Organize something practical beforehand in terms to getting the Questions sisters ask to the brothers side. (assigning someone to collect questions??) These are just some brief points, please forgive me if I offended anyone, that was not my intention. [slm] your sister |
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| abc10 |
| 07/18/02 at 15:15:54 |
| The mosque near me has an upper level for woman, but still screened with a wooden louver wall. It's clean & big, so no complaints there. But I gotta tell you I miss a lot not being able to see the speaker. I was like this in school too I'd like to be right where I could see them. When the speaker is saying something important some women go right up to the louvers to try to understand better. I would much rather go with a curtain down the middle of the main room, but ending before the stage area so I could see. BTW I've never once seen a woman there actually send a question to the speaker, I think this setup inhibits this. |
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| Ruqayyah |
| 07/19/02 at 00:41:38 |
| [slm] [quote] miss a lot not being able to see the speaker[/quote] I agree. For me, it's easier when I can see the speaker's mouth moving and also hear the words that are coming out of his mouth. This way you're not relying solely on your sense of hearing to understand what he/she's trying to say. |
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| deenb4dunya |
| 07/20/02 at 21:29:53 |
| Assalamu Alaikum Brother Madani, I think the middle road would be to have the sisters in the back- that way: - Sisters that are niqaabis are more comfortable, and those who disagree that sisters should be beside the bros are satisfied - Sisters who want to be beside the brothers can't complain- at least there not watching the speaker from behind the screen - its easier for the youth (especially the bros) to lower their gaze * Another thing to keep in mind- its usually the bros who are vigilant in 'seating' or should I say 'placing' them wherever they decide- so if you put the sisters beside the bros- u risk serious criticism and complianing from the bros. HOwever- seating the sisters behind the bros- bros won't complain and most sisters wouldn't make a big deal. Either that- or beside the brothers- I definitely hate the screen thing- its' impersonal and sisters WONT SHUT UP. Lastly- if the sisters are to be behind the brothers- please, please make sure that its an auditorium style room so that they can see the speaker. Jazaakumallahu Khayran; Deen p.s: man- this board has some good ideas! |
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