Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board

A R C H I V E S

Astagfirallah.. Is this really true?

Madina Archives


Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board

Astagfirallah.. Is this really true?
salik
07/03/02 at 16:35:16
What has the world come to?

Protests over Pakistan gang rape


http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_2089000/2089624.stm


Human rights organisations have strongly protested against the gang rape of a teenage Pakistani girl carried out as a "punishment" on the orders of a tribal council.

 

A tribal "panchyat" or council ordered the rape of the 18-year-old girl in a remote village, Mirwali, near the city of Muzaffargarh in Punjab province, some 600 kilometres south west of Islamabad, because her brother had an alleged affair with a woman of another tribe.

Human rights activists and local police officials say the incident took place in the last week of June when four men raped the girl inside a room and then sent her home naked before hundreds of villagers.

The Chief Justice of Pakistan, Sheikh Riaz Ahmed, has ordered the police chief of Punjab to appear before the Supreme Court, along with other senior provincial officials, in connection with the incident.

Tribal areas

In many of Pakistan's remote areas tribal councils, made up of community elders, still work like a lawful body, judging cases ranging from animal theft or tribal rivalry to murder.


Clan influence remains high in rural Pakistan


The rape was to avenge the "insult" caused to a family of the Mastoi tribe by the girl's 13-year-old brother's alleged "illicit affair" with a woman from that family.

The Mastoi are considered by locals as a tribe of higher social standing than that of the victim and her brother, who are from the Gujjar tribe.

Local police officials say they were informed about the public gang rape several days after the incident.

The incident has outraged human rights and women's organisations.

"It is barbaric. It is like living in the dark ages," says Rashid Rehman, a human rights activist.

"These tribal customs are powerful here. Whosoever within the community opposes or raises a voice is declared social outcast. The girl's family is shattered. The girl now will be treated as a leper by the community members," Rehman says.

Women's rights activists condemned the incident and demanded the government take stern action against the "culprits."

The governor of Punjab province has sent two ministers to the area to supervise an investigation into the reported rape.

Local police have arrested a few people including members of the tribal council, and the alleged rapists.

A question of 'honour'

There have been isolated incidents of public stripping and rape of women before but this is the first time that it has been carried out under the decree of a tribal council.


Activists say they face a difficult and daunting task


"Such a decree issued by a tribal council and carried out with impunity is not only a monumental crime and violation of the rights of the girl, but also an outrage for society and an affront to the state of Pakistan," says the Alliance against Discriminatory Laws, a women's group.

Women's rights organisations believe that there is institutionalised repression of women in Pakistan.

Hundreds of women have been murdered in traditional honour killings with women being marked for death on suspicions of adultery.

"We must condemn institutional acceptance of women symbolising honour and the routine rape and killing of women being carried out to dishonour or restore honour of families, and institutionalised violence" says Dr Fouzia Saeed, a well-known human rights activist.

Activists have been battling such "cruel and harsh" customs and traditions for years, but they say to empower women within such a society remains a difficult and daunting task.
Re: Astagfirallah.. Is this really true?
mwishka
07/03/02 at 19:17:59
bro salik,

sadly this is quite true in many places, not just in pakistan.  it's all a part of "blood honor", which i'm sure you've heard of, but it extends across many cultures by many names.  the idea is that whatever dishonor is done to one of your own blood shall be done in turn to the blood of the one who causes the dishonor.  (it's similar to the idea of "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth", but has more to do with dishonor than specifically with crimes of violence.)

another version of this same practice, which involves a couple who engage in pre- or extra-marital relations, is that some cultures instead insist on a bride being given from the family of the man who caused the dishonor to the family of the dishonored woman, to be "wed" to a male of that family.

unfortunately, this is no sort of wedding or marriage, because the woman essentially becomes a slave to the family, reviled and generally abused either physically or psychically, and often made to live and sleep outside the family home, sometimes in the open.  these women sometimes commit suicide as their only means of escape, since they can't return to their own family.  i believe the study i read of the suicide rates was on this occurrence in african tribal cultures, but it is a practice found wherever tribal customs remain strong.

mwishka
Re: Astagfirallah.. Is this really true?
Anonymous
07/05/02 at 02:55:54
I just picked up the following article from the AP newswire. Even though I know
that these people aren't following the Qur'an correctly, I am deeply puzzled by the
violence
against this woman, and I don't understand it. How is it possible to punish in this way?  
I know my family and friends are going to see this article and use it as proof that my
religion is bad for women. Please help me to understand this so I can answer their
questions and calm myself down...
Friends,

Please comment on the following article I found on the
AP newswire today. Please help me understand how I can
be happy being a Muslim when my kind, Muslim women,
are being treated so repulsively, disrespectfully, and
un-Muslim? What is going on in Pakistan?
Re: Astagfirallah.. Is this really true?
Kashif
07/05/02 at 09:32:27
assalaamu alaikum

I don't think there is anyone who could believe that Islam would condone this crime. Islam only contains laws which are for the benefit and protection of all members of society.

In fact, if you read all the reports what you can piece together is that this incident has nothing at all to do with Islam, it was an incident sparked by a ruling given by a council of elders based on the *violation of the caste system* which is something that Muslims of the Indo-Pak subcontinent have tragically melded into their lives.

If Pakistan indeed has shari'a courts, i wonder if they will now carry out the Islamic ruling in the case of the rapists and have them executed?

Kashif
Wa Salaam

NS
07/05/02 at 10:18:35
Kashif
Re: Astagfirallah.. Is this really true?
mwishka
07/05/02 at 09:54:43
"The girl now will be treated as a leper by the community members," Rehman says."

this is the sentence that tells how to stop this and to change the practice.  the community as a whole, as INDIVIDUALS, has an obligation to reject the practice, and to accept the woman as it would accept the victim of any crime:  with open arms.



Activists have been battling such "cruel and harsh" customs and traditions for years, but they say to empower women within such a society remains a difficult and daunting task.

if the work focuses on the woman herself (which of course it should to the extent of helping her heal) WITHOUT putting equal focus on the responsibility of the community to care for all its members, this practice will not change.



that kind of thinking, that the woman now has a personal burden of guilt and shame to carry, and that she carries with that an additional burden of having dishonored her own family, is like calling rape a "women's issue", when in fact quite the opposite is true.

mwishka  
                                               
Re: Astagfirallah.. Is this really true?
Kashif
07/05/02 at 10:20:48
Good point mwishka. Notice how the news item says that she was humiliated in front of hundreds of villagers. Hundreds???? And not a person whispered that this was an atrocious crime?

One could quite reasonably suggest that the people in the village are complicit in this whole evil.

Kashif
Wa Salaam
NS
Re: Astagfirallah.. Is this really true?
Ruqayyah
07/06/02 at 16:46:58
[slm]

More on this very sad story  :'(


      Mai told Reuters Television on Friday she begged for mercy but none of the hundreds of people around helped her as four men dragged her to a room and gang-raped her.
      Police arrested one of the four alleged rapists on Friday and said they were hunting for three others. The government has given Mai a check for $8,200.  
Authorities say another young girl of the same area committed suicide a few days ago after being raped.
      A report issued by the respected Human Rights Commission of Pakistan estimates a [color=Green][i]woman is raped every two hours in Pakistan, but says most sexual assaults go unreported because of the social stigma and the impossibility of proving the charges.
      In populous Punjab province, a woman is raped every six hours and a woman gang-raped every fourth day[/i][/color], yet only 321 rape cases were reported to police last year, it said.
Re: Astagfirallah.. Is this really true?
Aurora
07/06/02 at 23:18:54
Its true. Its pathetic but its true.

[quote author=Kashif link=board=ummah;num=1025728516;start=0#3 date=07/05/02 at 09:32:27]assalaamu alaikum
If Pakistan indeed has shari'a courts, i wonder if they will now carry out the Islamic ruling in the case of the rapists and have them executed?
[/quote]

I know there are various laws put in place with the intent of upholding islamic values and protecting the dignity of women, especially in such instances. Yet very very very rarely are they put into effect, as its very rare for rape victims to come forward, as they fear the 'leper' effect.

An important thing to note is that this occurred in the 'tribal areas' a place over which no one has any real control politically/justice-wise,etc.. except the tribes themselves. The people here are not subject to the laws governing the rest of Pakistan, they make their own laws.


Regarding the statement that all this took place in front of hundreds of villagers, it is said that [i]'Evil flourishes when good men do nothing'[/i].

NS
Re: Astagfirallah.. Is this really true?
mwishka
07/06/02 at 23:50:35
Gang-rape: Jirga chief surrenders
                                                                                                                                                                       
By Nadeem Saeed

                                                            MULTAN, July 6: The head of the Jirga that
had ordered the gang-rape of a woman at the Meerwala village late last month
surrendered to the police at
                                                            the offices of a local Urdu daily on Saturday.

                                                            Faiz Bakhsh arrived at the newspaper's
offices at about 12:30pm. When he identified himself, the staff called the
superintendent of police of Multan
                                                            city. The police reached there at about
5:30pm.

                                                            Talking to reporters, Faiz Bakhsh claimed
that he was against the verdict of the gang-rape. He pleaded that his position was
also clear from the
                                                            contents of the FIR lodged by the gang-rape
victim.

                                                            Referring to the FIR, Faiz Bakhsh said that he
had requested the other Jirga members and the gathering of the Mastoi tribesmen to
pardon the Shakoor
                                                            family as the boy's sister had already
tendered apology 'for the act of her brother'.

                                                            He said the whole gathering was witness that
he was weeping when Khaliq and others criminally assaulted the woman. Faiz
Bakhsh further claimed
                                                            that until the other day he was ignorant of the
attention the gang-rape had drawn here and abroad because he left for Northern
Areas the next day of
                                                            the incident.

                                                            He alleged that the police had arrested five of
his servants without their involvement at any level in the incident. He said that of
the 11 men arrested,
                                                            only he was a member of the Jirga and the
rest had nothing to do with the case.

                                                            The DSP of Kotwali, Mirza Ramzan Beg, had
come to the daily's offices to arrest Faiz Bakhsh.

http://www.dawn.com/2002/07/07/top8.htm

=============================================================
                                                                                                                                     
Gang-rape: CII seeks toughest punishment


                                                             ISLAMABAD, July 6: Terming the gang-rape
incident at Meerwala shocking the Council of Islamic Ideology (CII) said on
Saturday that culprits of this
                                                             heinous crime deserved severest punishment
under the Hudood Ordinance.

                                                             "This is a shocking incident which has
brought disgrace to the whole nation," said a press release issued here on Saturday.

                                                             The culprits of the gang-rape witnessed by a
whole crowd, deserved the severest punishment under the Hudood Ordinance, the
statement added.

                                                             The crime of culprits, abettors of the crime
and Panchayat members was unprecedented and deserved severest punishment, the
statement said, adding
                                                             that the perpetrators had openly insulted the
injunctions of the holy Quran and deserved an exemplary punishment under Islamic
law.-APP

http://www.dawn.com/2002/07/07/top9.htm
07/07/02 at 00:01:18
mwishka
Re: Astagfirallah.. Is this really true?
mwishka
07/08/02 at 00:36:43
additional news about this case......


Gang-rape: 2 more held
                                                                                                                                                                   
By A Correspondent

                                                            MULTAN, July 7: Two more accused of the
Meerwala gang-rape case were arrested on Sunday. The D.G. Khan police range DIG,
Asif Nawaz, told Dawn
                                                            by phone that rapist Fayyaz Hussain was
arrested from the Lundi Pitafi area of Bait Mir Hazar , whereas Ghulam Fareed, the
juror-cum-rapist, was
                                                            picked up from Mochiwala, tehsil Jatoi.

                                                            Still at large are Allah Ditta, brother of
Khaliq who was arrested from Lasbela on Friday, and Mohammad Ramzan, the third
juror.

                                                            The Jatoi police had to arrest six accused in
the gang-rape case and three in the sodomy case. So far, they have arrested four
people, all in the rape
                                                            case.

http://www.dawn.com/2002/07/08/top10.htm

========================================================================================================
[u]a separate crime of the same type.[/u]


Kolhi girl's gang-rape: landlord still at large
                                                                                                                                                                           
Bureau Report

                                                             HYDERABAD, July 7: The Hyderabad police,
during raids at different places, arrested six men suspected to be involved in the
gang-rape of a peasant girl
                                                             in Husri.

                                                             The girl, belonging to the Kolhi community,
was gang-raped by a landlord and his friends, while she was working in a field near
the Zeal Pak Cement
                                                             Factory on Wednesday. The landlord is stated
to be a union councillor also.

                                                             Taking notice of the incident, Assistant
Inspector-General of Police, Hyderabad, Abdur Rauf Yousufzai, ordered immediate
arrest of the culprits
                                                             involved in the heinous act.

                                                             The police, during raids at different places,
arrested six people but the main accused, landlord Yamin, is still at large.

                                                             When contacted by Dawn, the police officials
investigating the case were reluctant to give the names of the arrested suspects and
other details of the
                                                             incident.

http://www.dawn.com/2002/07/08/top11.htm
Re: Astagfirallah.. Is this really true?
Fatimah
08/10/02 at 14:10:43
[slm]
:'( Please make dua for this sister....

New claim by gang rape accused
Mukataran Mai's case has generated a debate on woman's plight

 By Shahid Malik
BBC reporter in Lahore  


One of the men accused in a gang rape trial in Pakistan has told the court that the alleged victim was his genuinely-wedded wife, on whom he had performed the conjugal rites.
The claim, made by Abdul Khaliq before the special anti-terrorism judge, is likely to delay the verdict in the case.

While all the 14 prisoners under trial have pleaded not guilty, only three main accused - including Khaliq - and one alleged abettor say they will call witnesses for their defence.


The verdict is likely to be delayed

Abdul Khaliq's pivotal importance in the gang rape story is owed to a reported fact that it was a love affair between the victim's brother and his (Khaliq's) own sister that led to the gang rape of the 30-year-old woman, Mukhtaran Mai.

In her testimony before the court in Dera Ghazi Khan, Mukhtaran Mai described Khaliq as being armed with a pistol while she was forcibly pushed into a room for the gang rape as a punishment awarded by a rural jury.

New twist

The dramatic turn in the story came when Abdul Khaliq said that, as a result of a settlement of the dispute between the two families, he had been married to Mukhataran Bibi on the night of the incident.

He said he had 'performed conjugal rights' on his genuinely-wedded wife.

Speaking to the BBC, special public prosecutor Khalid Ramzan Joya said the onus to prove that any marriage was legally valid was on Abdul Khaliq.

Similarly, the other three prisoners who have sought to defend themselves are required to produce witnesses in their defence.

Mr Joya said this was likely to cause further delay in the announcement of the verdict.

08/10/02 at 14:12:18
Fatimah
Re: Astagfirallah.. Is this really true?
muqaddar
08/10/02 at 14:20:09
[slm]

thousands of muslims have been tortured and murdered

by busharaf and his cronies in pakistan, i didn't see any

'female activists' rushing to empower muslims there

or to take another example in saudi arabia. I think this

is more to help busharaf the tyrant clamp down on

the tribal courts which remain outside his and the

christian missionaries jurisdiction in pakistan.

Perhaps somebody has some statistics on the women who are

raped in busharaf's secular prison before trial ....

quo bono . this poor woman is being used as a cats paw

 I'd love to see these people who are rushing to 'empower

 women' doing the same thing in american prisons because

 male rape and gladiator games seems to be something of an

 officially sanctioned punishment in their secular legal 'system'
Re: Astagfirallah.. Is this really true?
SisterHania
08/10/02 at 15:26:17
[quote]

by busharaf and his cronies in pakistan, [/quote]

[quote]

is more to help busharaf [/quote]


[quote]

raped in busharaf's [/quote]

Who is Busharaf..............?  ???
08/10/02 at 15:27:02
SisterHania
Re: Astagfirallah.. Is this really true?
Kareema_Abdul-Khab
08/11/02 at 05:15:48
I find it interesting that an Islamic sheik was the first to publicly condemn this, all is not lost. Actually, I was kind of surprised at first, I guess I didn't realize that there are still real believing Islamic leaders out there, particularly in Pakistan.

Also, why is this being tried in a anti-terroism court?

[url]http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20020806/lf_nm/pakistan_rape_dc_1[/url]

Pakistan Gang Rape Spotlights Village Traditions
Tue Aug 6,10:28 AM ET
By Mike Collett-White

MEERWALA, Pakistan (Reuters) - A small field is all that separates two rival clans, caught up in a brutal gang-rape case that has shocked Pakistan and highlighted the plight of women in villages obsessed with notions of honor and revenge.


Reuters Photo

 

Now the police have been called in to keep the peace in Meerwala, a remote, sun-baked village in Punjab province.

Both the larger, land-owning Mastoi clan and its weaker Gujar neighbors fear a blood bath if they are left to their own devices in the village, a collection of huts and houses at the end of a dusty track snaking through crops of cotton.

Men lounge in the shade and women work the land. But beneath the veneer of tranquillity, tensions are high amid claims of tit-for-tat rapes, a kidnap and the sodomy of a teen-age boy.

Outside a wooden hut by the river sat two policemen armed with automatic rifles.

"I believe there is a big risk of trouble," said Ghulam Hussain, the uncle of the Gujar woman at the center of the case. "God only knows what would happen if the police left."

The turbaned, 65-year-old's niece is Mukhtaran Mai, a 30-year-old divorcee, who says she was gang-raped in late June by four Mastoi men on the orders of a tribal jury called a panchayat.

The council was called after a Mastoi family claimed Mai's brother was having an illicit affair with Salmah, a Mastoi girl.

The boy, Abdul Shakur, was held hostage and says he was sodomized by three men while in captivity.

Apparently that was not enough to avenge the original offense and an agreement was struck whereby Shakur would marry Salmah and Mai would be promised in marriage to a Mastoi man.

Rana Abdul Mannan, a local journalist who uncovered the story, says such deals are common in rural Punjab, where centuries-old feudal laws apply and women are often traded like commodities to satisfy men's demands for respect and retribution.

But Mai says the panchayat's price was worse than forced marriage -- on the council's orders she was taken away and raped by four Mastoi men and made to walk home half-naked in front of hundreds of onlookers.

CASE COMES TO LIGHT

[glow=red,2,300]That the story came to light is surprising. Women are usually too afraid to speak out because of the stigma attached to the victims or because perpetrators wield so much influence.

In this case, the local Muslim cleric, Abdul Razzaq, spoke of the incident in a mosque and word spread.
[/glow]

Some 14 Mastoi men are on trial in a nearby town, Dera Ghazi Khan. Four are charged with rape and 10 with involvement in the attack. All face death by hanging if convicted.

But the Mastoi family says the whole case is a set-up.

Fed up with decades of Mastoi domination in Meerwala and neighboring Rampur, they say the Gujars cooked up an elaborate plot.

"We are innocent and nobody will listen," said Taj Mai, the 45-year-old mother of Salmah and 10 other children and no relation to Mukhtaran Mai.

Salmah, who gave her age as 14, said she was attacked by six Gujars, and that Shakur raped her. Hussain countered that this was impossible, because the boy was only 11.

"I would hang him if I had half the chance," Salmah seethed.

According to Salmah's mother, Mukhtaran Mai went to the Mastoi panchayat agreeing to be handed over in marriage. She was led away for a short time as a symbol of submission and was not raped.

TEST-CASE STATUS

Whatever the truth, the case has grabbed the attention of local and international media and highlighted the uneasy relationship between traditional, Islamic and civil laws in Pakistan.

Examples of women and girls being used as payment have come to light since, embarrassing the government and prompting the Supreme Court to intervene.

In another case last week in Abbakhel, four Pakistani murderers on death row were poised to buy freedom by marrying off daughters to their victims' relatives.

Under Islamic law enforced in 1979 by then military dictator, Gen. Mohammad Zia-ul-Haq, convicts can be pardoned if the victim's family agrees to accept cash compensation called Qisas.

But providing women as compensation is not allowed, and after the intervention of the court, a cash-only deal was struck. Among the girls who escaped forced marriages were two sisters, 2 and 4.

Rights groups have welcomed the attention and the pressure it puts on the government to curtail the activity of panchayats in remote areas.

The Human Rights Commission of Pakistan estimated a woman is raped every two hours in the country, but few cases are reported.

But there are doubts about the fairness of the Meerwala trial.

Defense lawyers question the medical examinations of Mai, saying they were eight days after the alleged crime.

[glow=red,2,300]The trial is also being held behind closed doors in an anti-terrorism court. [/glow]The trial is also being held behind closed doors in an anti-terrorism court. The court is under orders from the Supreme Court to wrap up the case in just two more weeks.

"This is not a case for the anti-terrorism court. It is clearly a case of personal enmity," said the Mastoi men's defense lawyer, Malik Mohammad Saleem.



08/11/02 at 05:22:32
Kareema_Abdul-Khab
Re: Astagfirallah.. Is this really true?
mwishka
08/11/02 at 08:45:51
(um sorry, what was showing up as repeating "t"s and "o"s in my posts lately is turning into missing "t"s and "o"s -- i may miss filling sme in...)

sis kareema,

the reasn the case is being held in an anti-terrorism court is this fact:


                 [i]The Human Rights Commission of Pakistan estimated a woman is raped every two hours in the country, but few cases are reported.[/i]  

this is obviously a problem so abominable and of such a huge scale, and one in which it seems segments of the population are complicit in terror against their own people, that i can see the sense of this assignment.  (that is NOT to say that this is not a sham court, or that any significant good will come of these proceedings, just a comment on why such a court placement could make sense for such a widespread abuse.)

ok, same problem as i cmmented on before:

[i]and made to walk home
                 half-naked in front of hundreds of onlookers.[/i]  
                 

now how on earth did she make it past even the very first person who saw her without that persn gasping and running to cover her and taking her into their home and tending to her?!  THAT'S what i don't get!  i remember some mention of guns being held on people in sme of these stories - come on, how many people can they shoot down running to defend her - a pistol has only six bulletts, and there were hundreds of people watching supposedly....


and how is it that SO many people are coomfortable lying here --- not that i know which ones it is who are lying, but OBVIOUSLY a LOT of people are.  i mean who would LIE, ever?  what kind of people lie?  how can whole clans or villages lie in agreement with each other, openly?

these are the aspects of this that bother me the most.....  what is the MATTER with these people, and with any people for that matter who base court cases on lies --- sometimes it's so ridiculously obvious, when you hear lawyers (whose job it is tto find the truth) on any TV news for example, that some of these people (forgive me bro haaris and bro muqaddar - but i think neither of you are criminal lawyers, anyway....) are standing in front of a camera lying.  again, i ask, what kind of people ARE they?


and these two statements:


                 [i]Salmah, who gave her age as 14, said she was attacked by six Gujars, and that Shakur raped her. Hussain countered that this was impossible, because the boy was only 11.


                 The council was called after a Mastoi family claimed Mai's brother was having an illicit affair with Salmah, a Mastoi girl.[/i]

(being only 11 certainly does not make that act impossible - that's a very weak claim...)

ok, obviously one of these statements is true and one statement is false.  how hard could it really be, for a dedicated investigator, somene who indeed is determined to make the truth come to light, to determine which is which?  

seems to me to be something that should be pretty easy to clear up and get the facts of.  and no, i just can't believe that here is not ONE honest person among all of the people of these two clans.....

and as in all court cases, when sometthing like this is true

                 [i]Both the larger, land-owning Mastoi clan and its weaker Gujar neighbors][/i]

tthe european example should be followed, of placing greater burden, and greater potential penalty, with the party with greater wealth and status. as we know in the US, our courts approach this concept from a backwards and demented perspective, in which money, wealth or power afford protection rather than a calling to higher responsibility toward those with less....  and this can be seen to me to be a fairly standard measure of he honor or lack of honor, corruption or lack of corruption, of any person, system, situation, philosophy, or organizational or goovernmental attitude.

mwishka
(who keeps losing and regaining, losing and regaining, both her faith in the desire of people to do good and her tolerance for bent personal morals, and, as a result, her happiness and her sanity.....  :'(   and because her mouse mind is soooooo tiny, god comes and goes with tthis, too.... :( )

 
Re: Astagfirallah.. Is this really true?
humble_muslim
08/11/02 at 08:52:48
AA

The basic fact is that there is NO JUSTICE in Pakistan. The amount of bribery and corruption is unbeliveable.  It's impossible to get ANYTHING done without dishing out the money.

Mwishka, please do NOT judge Islam by the standards of Pakistan, or you will think that Islam is the worst possible way of life.  There is something about the Pakistani mentality which cannot be expalined unless you've lived there.
NS
Re: Astagfirallah.. Is this really true?
muqaddar
08/11/02 at 09:42:42
[quote author=The humble muslim link=board=ummah;num=1025728516;start=15#15 date=08/11/02 at 08:52:48]AA

Mwishka, please do NOT judge Islam by the standards of Pakistan, or you will think that Islam is the worst possible way of life.  There is something about the Pakistani mentality which cannot be expalined unless you've lived there.[/quote]

I'm sorry humble but i'm amazed you said the words above..first of all
there is no pakistani 'mentality' as you put it, because there are many
'pakistan's' including nations who no longer WANT to be part of busharafs
tin pot executive action tyrrany

Secondly isn't it slightly racist to talk in terms of people sharing a mentality?!
 
Have you considered it may have something to do with the enviroment?

You kill any religious leader who has the support and authority to bring about change, and lock up the rest. You take away the moral basis
of people's lives and replace it with alegal system that has no connection
to them  or their belief's

Then you DELIBERATELY ensure that people can't get an education
(anybody read Huntingdon's advice to certain countries in 'the Clash..' ?)

and you deprive them of the madrassah's and schools where they would
have at least received some moral education.

You then impose on them people who are corrupt and 'muslims
in name only' to use Busharaf's brother description for himself who treat
them like animals

AND THEM YOU HAVE THE GALL TO TALK ABOUT THEM BEING EVIL?!

lets look in the mirror first people..what have WE done to improve
conditions for people there apart from sending them gee gaws and
trinkets...the people need education..more than anything else apart
from food
NS
Re: Astagfirallah.. Is this really true?
humble_muslim
08/11/02 at 11:14:17
AA

The Pakistani mentality is why so many Pakistanis have left Pakistan.  Every Pakistani has faced the Pakistani mentality at some time.

I am not racist, my parents are Pakistani! I am just honest, and I have to say that the mentaility of the average Pakistani leaves a LOT to be desired.
NS
Re: Astagfirallah.. Is this really true?
muqaddar
08/11/02 at 12:39:30
[slm]

Akhi i'm somebody who has suffered a lot because of people
in pakistan but i'd hesitate to use a word such as

pakistani 'mentality'.

I think the people there are a victim of their circumstances
and the intervention of outside forces who desire to keep them that
way.

If they are cruel (and they behaved atrociously towards me) then
that's because they have only ever been shown cruelty

I remember a gameshow from pakistan i watched once and the host
said pakistan was the richest country in the world
because every tyrant (barring zia who was a liar but not a thief)
had looted it but people were still surviving there

Re: Astagfirallah.. Is this really true?
Ameeraana
08/11/02 at 15:53:41
The issue of these rape cases should never be considered by non-Muslims as a Muslim act towards that girl. Rape is an act of violence that can happen to a woman anywhere. The problem is, the fear of what will come if others find out you were raped. Even women can be cruel to other women who have been raped. In the United States, I believe one of the first questions that is asked to a female rape victim is "what attire were you wearing?"

I know a lady who was raped when she was 17 yrs old while she slept in bed. The man broke into her home and commited this act. She was brave enough to come forward and on the day she testified in court, sure enough, the first question was about what she wore. She was wearing a long flannel gown!!  But that is the most absurd thing!! She was sleeping in her own home!!

Its sickening...

Islam or not, every woman needs to speak out against this--those hundreds of people who witnessed the event are just as guilty as the men who raped that girl!!

>:( >:( >:( >:(


Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
A R C H I V E S

Individual posts do not necessarily reflect the views of Jannah.org, Islam, or all Muslims. All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective owners. Comments are owned by the poster and may not be used without consent of the author.
The rest © Jannah.Org