A R C H I V E S
Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| Something I've always wondered about... |
|---|
| dirt |
| 07/24/02 at 16:22:33 |
| [slm] If humanity leaves the cradle of earth, reaches for the stars, and eventually colonizes other worlds, in which direction will muslims pray? The prayer times can be fixed to Meccan standard time but the direction still gets me. [wlm] |
| 07/24/02 at 16:34:50 |
| dirt |
| Re: Something I've always wondered... |
|---|
| theOriginal |
| 07/24/02 at 16:33:41 |
| [slm] with all due respect: say whaa? I'm sure you had a metaphor in there that my diminutive brain missed... But pray tell, if humanity left the cradle of this earth, wouldn't that imply the loss of a muslim representation anyway? (just a thought) Peace, SF. |
| Re: Something I've always wondered about... |
|---|
| dirt |
| 07/24/02 at 16:37:36 |
| [slm] No no, no metaphors. Just a straight up question. If you were on a planet other than earth, in which direction would you pray? Also, I fail to see how you come to the conclusion that colonization somehow implies an abolishment of Islam. [wlm] |
| 07/24/02 at 16:38:57 |
| dirt |
| Re: Something I've always wondered about... |
|---|
| Traveler |
| 07/24/02 at 18:34:34 |
| [slm] Hmm... interesting question, but I think it's really not a very difficult question to answer. First off, I wouldn't use the word colonize as it has an imperialistic connotation to it. I'd rather say "inhabit". ;) Okay back to your question. If humans have been succesful to "inhabit" other planets than I think it is ok to assume they also have a map of the navigated universe. Hence, they'll always know in which direction earth is relative to their position in space, which is for obvious reasons also dependent on time. So I guess humans will have to have a chart of prayer times-- like we do right now-- the only difference will be that it would have its corresponding Qiblah with the prayer time. Say for example if were to inhabit Mars or some other planet the chart might look something like this: Salah Time(Hrs:min) Qiblah(Direction) Fajr 35:55 Universal East Isha 62:33 Universal West What do you think dirt? Does it sound logical or what?? ;D Now let me pose a question which I think is a little difficult than figuring out the Qiblah. Suppose we were on a planet which takes like a hundred hours to make one revolution on its axis, thus a full day would be a hundred hours long. Now would you still pray five times a day? ??? Traveler |
| Re: Something I've always wondered about... |
|---|
| dirt |
| 07/24/02 at 18:46:52 |
| [slm] The thing that makes it difficult is that you have to take into account the rotation of the planet you're on, where your location is on said planet, AND correlate your exact position at every single second to that of earth. It's not as simple as you make it seem. If I had a 3D model and I could show you in person, I would be able to explain myself better. I don't see the times being that difficult. We could all just agree to use standard Meccan time as the default. So regardless of what planet you're on, your prayer schedule will always be in accordance with earth time in Mecca rather than the planet you are currently inhabiting. I will try (and I stress the word try) to draw a diagram showing you what I mean. O represents a planet 1 represents the side facing earth 2 represents the "backside" of the newly inhabited planet 3 represents the side facing the newly inhabited planet ------------ represents the line of sight between the two planets 2O1------------3O Not even taking into account a three dimensional model, one can see that if you are on the side directly facing earth (1) , you would need to pray toward the sky to pray in the direction of earth as earth would be "above" you. Also, if you were on the "back" side of the planet, you would need to pray toward the ground to pray in the direction of earth. Do you see what I mean? [wlm] |
| 07/24/02 at 19:02:53 |
| dirt |
| Re: Something I've always wondered about... |
|---|
| ltcorpest2 |
| 07/24/02 at 19:09:09 |
| in a more serious note. If you do not face Mecca, does God not hear your prayers? Or is facing Mecca only required for the 5 daily ritual prayers? |
| Re: Something I've always wondered about... |
|---|
| ltcorpest2 |
| 07/24/02 at 19:11:39 |
| one more dumb question: Since the earth is circular, wouldn't almost any direction you face bring you in a direction of Mecca? |
| Re: Something I've always wondered about... |
|---|
| dirt |
| 07/24/02 at 19:21:59 |
| [slm] It is my opinion that Allah SWT knows our intentions and if we are on another planet and can't figure out which way to pray, as long as our intentions are pure, Allah SWT will forgive us. Common sense, just like if one is lost without any means of finding direction of prayer, we are told to make our best guess and Allah SWT knows best. Well, that's what I was told anyway. As for the earth being spheroid in shape and our prayers always facing Mecca. I believe (someone correct me if I'm wrong) that we are to pray toward the shortest straight path toward Mecca. Also, just because the earth has a spheroid shape (close enough anyway), it doesn't mean our prayers would bring us in the direction of mecca by praying in any direction. There are indeed certain directions you can pray which will circumnavigate the globe without coming close to mecca. Man, I wish I had a 3D model to help out with this stuff. [wlm] |
| Re: Something I've always wondered about... |
|---|
| ltcorpest2 |
| 07/24/02 at 20:28:53 |
| i have the picture dirt, but what if i am praying, and do not face mecca, does God not honor a prayer that is not facing that direction? and does God honor the prayers of non-muslims? |
| Re: Something I've always wondered about... |
|---|
| Sara |
| 07/24/02 at 21:18:52 |
| Itcorpest2, When we are making salat (translated as prayer, but its not just supplication--which is called duaa in Arabic. it's a more formal worship), we follow what the Quran says and face Makkah. However, if you can't face Makkah for salat (for example if a tyrant ruler has you changed in the opposite direction, which actually happened to a companion of the Muhammad, peace be upon him), or if you can only approximate the direction, you should know that Allah is most merciful (therefore yes, Allah would except your salat). That companion recited these verses (among others, I think) when the tyrant ruler would not allow him to perform salat: 2: 142 Some foolish folk will say: "Whatever turned them away from the Direction [of Prayer] toward which they used to face?" SAY: "God holds the East and West; He guides whomever He wishes towards a Straight Road." (before the Kaba in Makkah, Masjid-ul-Aqsa in Jerusalem was the direction of prayer) 2: 115 To Allah belong the East and the West; wherever you may turn there is the presence of Allah. For Allah is All-Pervading All-Knowing. And by the way, for duaa—supplication—no injunction to face the Kaaba. |
| Re: Something I've always wondered about... |
|---|
| Traveler |
| 07/24/02 at 21:28:54 |
Dirt I see what you mean. But I think that is still not a problem. The only time we would not have a specific direction is when the earth is either directly above us or below us. Other than that we would always have a direction to face. So only when the earth is at a 90 degree angle, we will have the choice to pray in any direction we like. To better understand my point lets put ourselves in a situation closer to earth. Suppose you are inside the Kabbah and need to pray, where do you think you would face? Answer: anywhere. Since you're surrounded by the Kabbah. Now suppose you on the terrace or on the roof of the Kabbah then where would you face if you wish to pray? Answer: Anywhere. It's the same thing as praying inside the Kabbah. Therefore, any direction is alright its upto to you to choose. Similarly, imagine Kabbah had a basement. You would be exactly in the same situation as you were on the roof. Hence, you'll pray in any direction you like. So you see in any other situation than being directly above or below the Kabbah you will always have a direction to face. Traveler |
| Re: Something I've always wondered about... |
|---|
| sofia |
| 07/24/02 at 23:09:20 |
| No offense, bro, but really, is this a serious question? Not that we shouldn't seek as much knowledge as possible or travel the world (or the the worlds, even), but... ??? "It is not Birr (righteousness, acts of obedience to God) that ye turn your faces towards the east or west; but Birr (righteousness) is (the quality of one) who believes in God and the Last Day, the Angels, the Books, the Messengers; and spends out of one's wealth, in spite of love for it, for kinfolk, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and set slaves free; and (one who) is steadfast in prayer, and practices regular charity; who fulfil their covenant when they make it; and who are firm and patient in extreme poverty and ailment, and throughout all periods of fighting/panic. Such are the people of truth, and they are Al-Muttaqun (God-fearing)." {Surah Al-Baqarah 2:177} Hamza Yusuf Hanson once said something to the effect of, The house is burning, and yet we worry about rearranging the furniture. Or something, but you get the gist. |
| 07/24/02 at 23:28:37 |
| sofia |
| Re: Something I've always wondered about... |
|---|
| jannah |
| 07/25/02 at 01:03:25 |
| [slm] I think it's something we've all wondered about. I think this highlights the brilliance of Islamic law. It's for all places and all times. That's how flexible and eternal Islam is. |
| Re: Something I've always wondered about... |
|---|
| dirt |
| 07/25/02 at 02:16:37 |
| [slm] "No offense, bro, but really, is this a serious question? Not that we shouldn't seek as much knowledge as possible or travel the world (or the the worlds, even), but... " Absolutely, it is a serious question. This question has brought insight upon several great aspects of Islam and I am glad I asked it. Besides, one can't be serious one hundred percent of the time, levity can be a good thing you know. But just for the record, this was a serious question. [wlm] |
| 07/25/02 at 02:19:20 |
| dirt |
| Re: Something I've always wondered about... |
|---|
| bismilla |
| 08/07/02 at 03:06:22 |
| [slm] I received a copy of this article [url=http://groups.yahoo.com/group/alislaahpublications/message/92][u][color=blue] here[/url][/u][/color], and asked Brother Khalid Shaukat about this question Brother Dirt had posed. His answer as follows :- [color=green][font=comic SANS ms] From another planet or in space, one would face a line in space that goes exactly above Ka'bah (This line is the one that connects Ka'bah to Bait-ul-Ma'moor in the heavens). By 3-D trigonometry, it can be calculated from any point in space, how to face such a line. Even on earth we face the same line, not the ka'bah itself. [/color][/font] [tt]I confess this is not all too clear to me right now, so if anyone would care to elbaorate in English..please feel free[/tt] ;D A little about the Brother :- [color=purple][font=comic SANS ms]Khalid Shaukat is a consultant to ISNA, Fiqh Council Of North America, and Shura Council of North America for the matters of Qibla Direction, Prayer Times, and Moonsighting. He has specialized in physics, mathematics, computer programming, and computational astronomy, he is actively doing research work for over 2 decades on Moonsighting, Islamic Calendar, Prayer Schedule, and Qibla Direction serving Muslim Ummah all across the world. He has provided Salaat Schedules, Qibla Directions, and Moonsighting information to over 178 countries (over 2500 cities) in the world including polar regions (Norway, Sweden, Finland, and Alaska), where sun does not rise or set for several months. Several masjids in USA, Puerto Rico, and Canada have been built with his help,setting masjid orientation's in the proper Qibla direction. If you need Qibla direction, send your request to [email=shaukat@moonsighting.com][u]Khalid Shaukat[/email][/u] with your city name. [/color][/font] [slm] :-) |
| Re: Something I've always wondered about... |
|---|
| bismilla |
| 08/07/02 at 04:50:24 |
| [slm] :-) [center][quote author=ltcorpest2 link=board=bebzi;num=1027542153;start=0#8 date=07/24/02 at 20:28:53]i have the picture dirt, but what if i am praying, and do not face mecca, does God not honor a prayer that is not facing that direction? and does God honor the prayers of non-muslims?[/quote][/center] [font=comic SANS ms][color=green][url=http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/pillars/prayer/albaani/prayer_9.html][u]FACING THE KA'BAH[/u][/url][/font][/color] [slm] |
| Re: Something I've always wondered about... |
|---|
| se7en |
| 08/07/02 at 05:19:10 |
| as salaamu alaykum, Is this science fiqhtion? :-/ (that's from a Hamza Yusuf tape) wasalaam :-) |
| Re: Something I've always wondered about... |
|---|
| theOriginal |
| 08/07/02 at 12:05:42 |
| [slm] Okay so for some reason, I completely missed the thread, after my initial response, but to clear it up. I finally get the question!! (And no, I'm not thick, I'm just a tad slow.) And I have a question, before I answer your FIRST question. Ready? Are you asking what would happen if sometime in the future, humans inhabit (for example) Mars? Or is your question, what are aliens that are on (for example) Mars doing right now? (Oh and by the way, see what i thought you asked was what if humanity LEFT Earth, as in vanished, as in HUMANITY, not HUMAN KIND. But what you meant was what if HUMAN KIND COULD LEAVE EARTH, right? Oh and correct me if I'm wrong, coz I'm still thinking.) Wasalaam. SF. |
| Re: Something I've always wondered about... |
|---|
| muqaddar |
| 08/07/02 at 14:11:27 |
| [slm] whats the problem here? you pray in the direction of earth from space of course the planets in the solar sytem will move position in relation to earth so your position changes. the 100 hour day you establish Earth Standard Time (24 Hours) as the period you will pray, 24 is roughly what the human bodyclock is used to anyhow what happends when you fast? you do same thing as people at the poles ! |
| Re: Something I've always wondered about... |
|---|
| theOriginal |
| 08/07/02 at 14:16:04 |
| [slm] [quote]what happends when you fast? you do same thing as people at the poles ! [/quote] ooh good point. SF. |
| Re: Something I've always wondered about... |
|---|
| dirt |
| 08/09/02 at 03:16:09 |
| [slm] [quote]science fiqhtion[/quote] .......HEHEHE, not bad. :) [quote]Are you asking what would happen if sometime in the future, humans inhabit (for example) Mars?[/quote] Yes. Though the alien debate is quite interesting as well. [quote]whats the problem here? you pray in the direction of earth from space of course the planets in the solar sytem will move position in relation to earth so your position changes.[/quote] The problem has already been stated and hashed over. If you consider a three dimensional environment, then you will come across instances where you would literally need to pray toward the sky or the ground in order to pray toward the kabaa. But from some of the answers given, it would seem that in these instances one could pray in any direction as you cannot pray toward the sky nor toward the gound. [wlm] |
| 08/09/02 at 03:20:31 |
| dirt |
| Re: Somethinc I've always wondered about... |
|---|
| It_Dont_Matter |
| 08/11/02 at 00:28:44 |
| [slm] I'm new here. This was an interesting post! ;D Dirt....How 'bout we figure it out when it actually happens! LOL As for now, chill out and drink a pepsi! [] P.S> Relax...to much thinking will make your hair fall out! :D |
| Re: Something I've always wondered about... |
|---|
| bismilla |
| 08/12/02 at 02:42:57 |
| bsm [slm] :-) Just to add another dimension here....... As usual, this is subject to correction :-) The way i see it, the times at which we perform Salah are subject to the position of the sun. Fajr AFTER the sun has risen, Zohr when the sun has PASSED it's zenith, etc., etc. And from my (very little) understanding of all things science, some planets do not have a sun, whereas others have more than 1. (This could just be an over-active imagination here!).... but it would be interesting to know how one would go about performing Salah in such an instance, in terms of WHEN ??? [tt]In Islam all things are logical, so i am sure there's a good explanation for this...only thing is it escapes me this early on a Monday morning :)[/tt] |
| Re: Something I've always wondered about... |
|---|
| jannah |
| 08/12/02 at 05:17:44 |
| [slm] For places like Alaska or Antarctica etc... the scholars have two answers about the prayer thing... 1. You pray at exact same time as people do in Makkah or 2. You pray the prayers along with the nearest "normal" city times. It's amazing how flexible Islam is through time and place. Some things will always remain like prayer though.. who would have even thought ppl sitting in front of their computers in homes thousands of miles away would hear the athan of Makkah automatically when it's time to pray... |
Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board |