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What do you expect?

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What do you expect?
dirt
07/31/02 at 20:41:15
[slm]

If someone started making cat calls to you and saying inappropriate things and your husband was with you, would you expect your husband to confront that person?  Would you be okay with your man just ignoring them and moving along?  Would you expect your husband to get in a physical fight over it?

[wlm]
Re: What do you expect?
Caraj
07/31/02 at 21:06:29
The only way I would want my husband to get in a physical fight would be defending me against a physical attack or to defend my honor, like if someone said something in public that wasn't true.

As for cat calls, I would feel good if he looked in the direction and said something like

"Grow up"    or  "How about a little respect?"
Or Maybe...   "Yes she is a lovely woman but how about a little respect here."

Then placing his hand against my elbow ( in a leading type gesture) leading us both away.
Re: What do you expect?
eleanor
08/01/02 at 06:34:22
[slm]

emm.. I think whether I'd want him to or not, he would probably knock that person out  ;D
Re: What do you expect?
theOriginal
08/01/02 at 10:24:49
[slm]

First of all I am very curious why you asked that question, but if you don't want to say, i can ignore the suspense.

But in answer to the question, to some extent it depends, although in all honesty, I think it would not be in the best interest of my husband to just simply ignore it  :)  

The rule is: If, after he gets angry and avows to break every bone in the other guy's body  :D  ... if and only if, after that, I tell him that he can drop it, he can.  Otherwise, we got a fite on our hands.  

Okay, perhaps not.  Let me give you an example, though....similar, but not quite (since I'm not married).  I was walking on the main commercial street of downtown Toronto with my older brother and sister, and some dude on a bike rode in real close to us and yelled "Terrorist" while trying to tear my sister's hijaab off.  It was a bit shocking at first, but my brother's reaction just made the whole situation funny.  My bro's a very tall guy, and after helping my sis fix her hijaab, I turn around, and all I can see him doing is running after this bicyclist.  It was seriously embarrassing, because I would have preferred him to have not done anything, especially since the streets were so crowded.  But he grabs the guy, rips him off his bike, and is just holding him by his collar, while the guy is wriggling a foot off the ground, trying to break free.  When I finally reach up to them, I can hear my brother saying in his extremely calm and apologetic voice, "I'm sorry, man, I really am.  I don't want to hurt you, just apologize to my sisters, I promise I'll let you go."  

If you must know, I really liked the way my brother handled it.  It ended with my brother and the guy exchanging e-mail addresses and phone numbers, and my sister getting the much needed "I'm sorry, I don't know what got into me."        

I don't know if that answered your question, but I would definitely expect SOMETHING from my husband.

[wlm]

SF.
Re: What do you expect?
se7en
08/01/02 at 11:29:29
as salaamu alaykum,

bust his caps.  or at least want to.

wasalaam :-)
08/01/02 at 12:24:06
se7en
Re: What do you expect?
M.F.
08/01/02 at 12:50:25
Assalamu alaikum
First of all, I can't imagine anyone making catcalls at me while I'm actually WITH my husband.  
If they did, and if heard them, I'd definitely expect him to get involved, and knowing him, he would.  He wouldn't get into a physical fight, but he'd definitely say something and I know he could get REALLY angry.  
Re: What do you expect?
mwishka
08/01/02 at 18:18:15
bro dirt,

i had no plan to respond to this necessarily, but now i see i'm kind of in the um minority, so i thought i should.

my experience has been that anyone yelling anything at anyone else in such a manner as this has not the "being-yelled-or-whistled-at" person as the object of their attention, but is actually seeking the attention and "admiration"of their own peers, those who see and hear them carry out this aggressive activity.

so, it is my habit, since such a thing has nothing to do with me, to regard it as someone else's conversation.  i would never eavesdrop on soomeone else's conversation, especially of such a um personally intimate nature between "friends" as having a contest of egos and machismo  ;), so it is none of my business, so to speak, and i would politely act as though i did not "overhear" any of their intimate banter or gamesmanship.

i would think someone who would end up as my husband would most likely share this version of dignified respect for privacy........

and i can tell you that treating such "hostility" as having nothing to do with you, COMPLETELY ignoring it, is quite effective in defusing it.  i even encountered this recently at the june 6th rally in albany, where there were people trying to agitate people and rile them up and disturb them.  all you have to do is keep your own peace, allow them to remain outside your awareness as much as possible, and they will have no "shared" object of attack, and have only their own interactions with each other to contend with.  generally, it makes such aggressors go completely silent - it's worked for me at limitless numbers of demonstrations of all sorts.  the goal of someone verbally assaulting (perhaps "engaging" by their definition) someone else in a public place is to fluster you, first of all, but also to dominate you, to make you submit to their will, and to assert their status as being higher than yours in however they measure this.  just don't even participate.  it REALLY has nothing to do with you.

it IS possible, that a drunk or high person, especially the most aggressive male in the midst of his own peer group of similarly intoxicated males, might act physically aggressive if they were ignored, but that's a sort of separate category and question, like "how would you deal with a physical assault?"

mwishka
Re: What do you expect?
The_Naeem
08/02/02 at 12:45:36
Salaams,
        Ok I talk a lot of junk sometimes, but on the real, if I saw some guy, forget wife, any Muslim sister I know or even don't know, and he disrespects her, I'm not gonna to just be like "Hello Sir, did you really mean to call our beloved sister a "FOXY LADY", surely you jest?" .  No way, I would stare directly into his face as if my vision was burrowing into the center of his skull and ask him, "Do we have a problem here, I can't have you disrespecting my sister like that?!"  Inshallah it won't escalate to a physical affair, but like the saying goes "Don't starting nothin' Won't be nothin'!"  Or better yet "Check yourself before you reck yourself!"  There are times when people don't deserve a response, but when it comes to our women, this is the charge Allah his given the men, protectors and maintainers.  I think a attack on me would be one thing, that may not escalate, but if you talking mess to a woman, you've crossed all laws, respect of women is SUPPOSE to be universal.
Re: What do you expect?
mwishka
08/02/02 at 14:29:52
bro naeem,

i certainly appreciate your perspective, and commend your sense of duty and honor, but unfortunately, though this type of interaction may make you FEEL better, and you have an inner sense that tells you that it is the right and just thing to do, it is not the type of interaction that will end this type of behavior - as in cut it off at the roots, deprive it of the particular nourishment it seeks to perpetuate itself.  and i am not, lest you or others think this, saying "ignore them though they spew hate", i am saying blank them into nonexistence, which is all they deserve from you, and what is required to bring change in their behavior.

every time someone interacts with them, even as good intentioned as all of you i have read of here, it is fuel.  it feeds their needs, which have become twisted and bent in some way, leaving them lashing out at the world to meet needs that other people would meet through loving and kind interactions.  every time any one of us "goes off" on anyone. no matter how "controlled" our confrontation with them, we have not offered them any motivation to them to change whatever it is prompted our response......

it's just one of those quirks of human society and human behavior, and how we all struggle to meet our most basic needs and how demented we can get when they are NOT met.

mwishka  
Re: What do you expect?
The_Naeem
08/02/02 at 15:43:12
Salaams,
     Ok let's take this to the play ground level.  Bullies pick on people who don't stand up for themselves.  They take your lunch money from you as long as you allow them to do it.  That's the way bullies work, and it dosent change with age.  If you can sucker someone into doing something once, you will keep doing it until they stop you.
      I think this is the classic argument atleast in the african amercan community of Malcolm vs. Martin.  MLK was all about non-violence no matter what.  Spit, kick, burn, rape, whatever, non-violence.  That works for some people.  But Malcolm said "we are non-violent with those who are non-violent with us", "....and we have the right to defend ourselves".  And that's all I am saying, if I have the two options I am going with Malcolm.  
      You can only do so much to appease public opinion.  People will percieve what they will.  You can only do so much.
08/02/02 at 15:45:17
The_Naeem
Re: What do you expect?
Fahad
08/02/02 at 16:20:32
[slm]

brother naeem,

i think you and mwishka are saying very similar things...ill try to explain

what does the bully want when he bullies you into giving him your lunch money?  he wants the  money.  thats why he does it, so he can get the money.  if you dont give him the money, then he wont have any reason to do it.

similarly, what does the catcalling person want?  he wants a reaction out of you.  thats why he does it, so he can get the reaction.  if you dont give him the reaction, he wont have any reason to do it.

i hope this made sense and has been of some help. :)

[wlm]
08/02/02 at 16:21:53
Fahad
Re: What do you expect?
mwishka
08/02/02 at 17:39:10
bro fahad,
thanks for your kind efforts to meld our views......

but um he he bro naeem....you don't know what a mass of contradictions i really am...... ;) :D

he he  who was MY childhood role model?  ché.

hee heeee   you tell me june jordan and angela davis are in town to speak on the same night?  he he not even worth askin....

hee hee poison girls (not all girls - hardcore punk brit band) wrote a song "peace march": goes like this.....   ooohhh oohhhoh not another peace march peace march    oooh oh ohhhh not another bomb song bomb song..   another bloody peace march peace march...another bloody bomb song bomb song....        that's half of me.  the other half is just out there trying to take care of people so we don't even need all these bloody peace marches........... ;)

took me a long time to fully appreciate MLK in comparison to malcolm......

and bro fahad, that bully is not even interested in your money --- that's just the BONUS he gets with his dominance over you.

but seriously bro naeem, the idea as i see it is to disengage oneself from people's efforts to contaminate and distort the face of humanity with the distasteful and disrespectful and repulsive parts of themselves which they throw out at all of us in their rage and frustration and hurt and anger and hunger to fill their hearts and their needs.  don't let your anger bleed out, until you have used your example, your kindness, and all the love and caring you have in your heart to help each and every small, fragile floundering person you encounter.  save your anger for those who should have it turned on them - take a trip across the sea and pick up sharon by his collar and say man in what bushes where did you leave your brain your conscience and your, well, your, manhood (if you like)......   don't take anything out on suffering people, even stupid street-yellers...   say hi man how ya doin'?  had a rough day?  hey you married?  got any kids?  yeah, this is my wife.  you got a wife?  hey why don't you come over here and sit down and let's just talk.         you know,  go AROUND what they want.  go AROUND what they're trying to do.  go AROUND their egos and sneak in to their humanity, their conscience, their need to interact positively with people.......  allow them to see the people they're lashing out at as just the same as themselves.  to see the woman they're harrassing as a flesh and blood person. (no matter how they might try to convince themselves or their buddies or even YOU that it's a "compliment"...)  (there's a great benefit to surprise when you want to slip quietly into someone's mind to alter their views or disrupt their rigid thinking -- my own general strategy in the world is subversion, and hee hee i'm not even always conscious of it...... ;) )

me, as a teenager, i always wanted to learn to use as many weapons as possible.  i learned none, and i have to now say i'm glad, because i have also learned that i SHOULD only have access to my mind as a weapon - i'm not sure i could be trusted.  (again, somebody like sharon comes to mind....)    i wanted to learn long-range sharpshooting -- seemed to me to be such a beautiful skill.  this in itself, this desire, is a kind of dementedness.  no, this is not a skill to be admired, except and unless one has the strength to know when and how and where to use it.  (he he a FEW people here might um remember how i struggled with my peaceful nature against my admiration for that nailed-together rifle sharpshooter in palestine........wow, i really had to face up to some um things with THAT one....:( )

i'm essentially a very kind and gentle person, but sometimes that gets kind of out of my touch......when i have to consider what goes on in the world.  i've had people say to me things like "why do you HATE rich people so much?", shocking me, who didn't know anything i said ever came out sounding hateful.  none of us are immune from near indulgences in our most aroused sense of injustice, we just have to remember how to keep our brain function fully engaged in our actions, to proceed with reason when we might most be unable to do so, to discipline ourselves constantly to train ourselves what outcomes we really want in the world, how we hope to see the world shape itself in gladness, happiness, well-being - whatever you see it as, whatever you want to call it.....and to learn exactly what will and will not take us closer to those outcomes we seek....

wow.......sorry for the loooooong story reply ----

mwishka  
(mouse what you doin?  again? when you gonna learn to exert a little of that discipline you talk about to keep your squeakin to your self??)  
08/02/02 at 20:05:15
mwishka
Re: What do you expect?
Kathy
08/02/02 at 17:59:28
[slm]

Naeem, your post brought back some pleasant memories of about 15 years ago.

Then, I as a white Muslim woman, could travel safely, alone in south Chicago as well as the innercities in Arkansas.

NOI was very prevelant in these areas. It was as if I had an invisable shield around me and everyone knew not to mess with a Muslim woman...or else!

On a business trip in Arkansas, I was looking for a masjid to pray. A policeman pulled me over and told me I was not safe in that area. I was a little naive back then and didn't listen.

Out of nowhere a brother appeared and asked me what I needed. Needless to say I think they were watching out for me and I never did encounter any problems.

Another time I got lost in deep south Chicago..and a little bit terrified. However, it seemed like I was safe because of this unwritten code.

I kind of miss it.


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