A R C H I V E S
Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| I was never aware of "gay Muslims".... |
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| DeRayeMustafaMille |
| 08/06/02 at 14:42:03 |
| ...until during a debate about homosexuallity and Islam on another forum that this website was posted. Mustufallah! See for yourself. :'( [Website Deleted by Admin] |
| 08/06/02 at 19:11:58 |
| jannah |
| Re: I was never aware of "gay Muslims".... |
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| Sara |
| 08/06/02 at 14:52:33 |
| [slm] :( My stomach hurts. Today I was at our school's Women's Heritage Month planning committee... and I suggested an awesome sister... and they were all so excited about the idea. And then someone proposed a counter-idea: a Pakistani Muslim lady who is supposed to be leading the gay and lesbion crusade internationaly... ya Allah! |
| My stomach hurts too |
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| DeRayeMustafaMille |
| 08/06/02 at 15:10:08 |
| Crazy isn't it?! I couldn't believe it when I first saw it. Forgive me if I sound ignorant, but a "Gay Muslim" to me is equal to a Black Klan member. |
| Re: I was never aware of "gay Muslims".... |
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| Ameeraana |
| 08/06/02 at 22:26:31 |
| Ok, there are specific punishments for Muslims to enforce ruled out in the Qur'an for Murder, robery, adultery and such, right? But correct me if I am wrong, there is not a specific punishment for gays... This is one very dificult topic for me because I have a couple of childhood friends whom I knew were gay from when they became aware of feelings for others. And I know this is not Islamicly believed , but from my belief in reincarnation, perhaps they were a member of the opposite sex in a prior life that carried over in the new body? I am pretty sure all the the Holy books say that it is wrong for same-sex partners to be together, but if there is no punishment to be given by people to the gays, then, God, or Allah will deal with them on Judgement Day, right? If I am wrong, though, I would like to see what Surah speaks of what punishment a person can give to a gay person. |
| Re: I was never aware of "gay Muslims".... |
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| jannah |
| 08/06/02 at 22:33:12 |
| In Islam, even if you have "inclinations" or "feelings" it does not mean you follow through with them. There are specific regulations for relationships in Islam. As such same gender relationships such as homosexuality are not permissible. That means a Muslim does *NOT* indulge in that behavior. It is Haram or forbidden. And there is a punishment for acting upon it in an Islamic court of law and a punishment for it in the Hereafter. There is no belief of reincarnation in Islam. This does not mean that we are not kind or helpful to such people, it just means it's not allowed in Islam, just like adultery is not. |
| Re: I was never aware of "gay Muslims".... |
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| Ameeraana |
| 08/06/02 at 22:41:43 |
| and about that punishment by the Islamic court of law, is there a sprcific Surah that grants that court to punish those whom act out on it? |
| Re: I was never aware of "gay Muslims".... |
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| jannah |
| 08/06/02 at 22:52:13 |
| Islamic law is made up of the verses of the Quran, the Hadith [traditions, sayings and approvals of the Prophet], along with the great body of scholarship that exists in this area that comprises of volumes and volumes on etymology, grammer, the fine points of law, anology, jurisprudence, etc. If you'd like you can read the Chapter called Lot in the Quran where God condemns the people of his town who practice homosexuality. |
| Re: I was never aware of "gay Muslims".... |
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| Ameeraana |
| 08/06/02 at 23:25:05 |
| I have read that story before, thank you. |
| Re: I was never aware of "gay Muslims".... |
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| Fatimah |
| 08/06/02 at 23:55:08 |
| [slm] The punishment for sodomy is death, whether the persons involved were married or not.. The Prophet [saw] said: “Whomsoever you find committing the act, kill them: both the active and the passive partners.” (Abu Dawood, Tirmidhi, and Ibn Majah) Authenticated sahih by Sheikh al-Albani Wa Allahu Alim |
| 08/06/02 at 23:56:05 |
| Fatimah |
| Re: I was never aware of "gay Muslims".... |
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| stap |
| 08/07/02 at 03:18:52 |
| Also note that the punishment for an act of homosexuality covers a double punishment. Since not only is it a Kabeera(Great sin)in and of itself, but it is also adultery as well. That is why the execution sentence is usually never just a shot to the head but is much harsher. The Taliban used to knock heavy walls over convicted homosexuals until they were dead. Iran has them thrown off cliffs. It was reported that a representative of one of the Caliphs(I'm not sure which one, I believe it was Abu Bakr(Ra)) sent a message to the Caliph saying that he had come across a village/town where there were homosexuals. Imam Ali (Ra) counseled that they should be burnt to death and this was what was done. For those feeling these types of filthy urges, recognize that this is from Shaytan and that Allah Ta'alah has stated that Shaytan is our mortal enemy who only seeks harm for us. You should do as much as possible to keep away from this and strictly control yourself. And beg Allah for forgiveness. May Allah give us the Hikmah to see the truth and follow it. Ameen. One more thing, I came across a website which had a head topic on this a while back which quoted Imam Hamza Yusuf as saying that anyone who believes that homosexuality is permissible is not a Muslim. Can someone refer me to that article again please. Jazakumullah-khair. Wa salaam. |
| Re: I was never aware of "gay Muslims".... |
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| Traveler |
| 08/07/02 at 06:02:46 |
Ameeraana, Surahs and hadiths which prescribe the punishments for illegitimate sex apply on any type of illegitimate sex. And the fact Allah mentions the despicable act and later on destroys the whole population of Lut is a clear indication on how He wants us to deal with it if the Word of Allah is not heeded. And as Jannah said this does not give anybody the right to treat them unjustly. Like the way some people treat them here in the states. As they say, Hate the act don't hate the person. Traveler |
| Re: I was never aware of "gay Muslims".... |
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| Fatimah |
| 08/07/02 at 06:29:04 |
| [slm] Maalik, al-Shaafi'i, Ahmad and Ishaaq said that the person guilty of the crime of Lut should be stoned. [slm] |
| Re: I was never aware of "gay Muslims".... |
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| struggling |
| 08/07/02 at 23:01:08 |
| Bismillah ar Rahman ar Raheem [slm] I don't exactly remember the reference, but I read somewhere a while ago that the following verse of Surah al Nisa refers to homosexual relations between two men: 4:16: "And as for the two of you who are guilty thereof, punish them both. And if they repent and improve, then let them be. Lo! Allah is Relenting, Merciful." This verse is coming immediately after the following verse: 4:15: "As for those of your women who are guilty of lewdness, call to witness four of you against them. And if they testify (to the truth of the allegation) then confine them to the houses until death take them or (until) Allah appoint for them a way (through new legislation)." (TMQ - Pickthall) And only God knows better. Wassalam |
| Re: I was never aware of "gay Muslims".... |
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| Ameeraana |
| 08/07/02 at 23:04:05 |
| women who are guilty of lewdness? What about a men who are guilty of lewdness? |
| Re: I was never aware of "gay Muslims".... |
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| Fatimah |
| 08/07/02 at 23:46:14 |
| [slm] 4:15: "As for those of your women who are guilty of lewdness, call to witness four of you against them. And if they testify (to the truth of the allegation) then confine them to the houses until death take them or (until) Allah appoint for them a way (through new legislation)." This verse was abrogated with the verse that says to stone to death the adulterer and adulteress. (The punishment is the same for a man and woman) wa Allahu Alim |
| Re: I was never aware of "gay Muslims".... |
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| Fatimah |
| 08/07/02 at 23:51:12 |
| [slm] I found the verse that abrogated verse 4:15.. it's 24:2. [slm] |
| Re: I was never aware of "gay Muslims".... |
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| Fatimah |
| 08/07/02 at 23:58:21 |
| [slm] [quote]Surahs and hadiths which prescribe the punishments for illegitimate sex apply on any type of illegitimate sex.[/quote] The gay should be stoned like other prescibed punishments.. But.. the gay who does this crime differs when he/she is not married. They do not get lashed like the other fornicaters.. they still get killed. Allahu Alim |
| Re: I was never aware of "gay Muslims".... |
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| jannah |
| 08/08/02 at 04:13:32 |
| [wlm] Hmmm, I wonder why there's so much emphasis on the punishment here. We obviously have no country that has Islamic Shariah courts and applies Islamic law. If there is no system, the law cannot be exercised in a vacuum. There are trials and judges and evidence and so on. Perhaps we meant to emphasize the seriousness of the sin, but I think that's been shown. |
| 08/08/02 at 04:13:56 |
| jannah |
| Re: I was never aware of "gay Muslims".... |
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| muqaddar |
| 08/08/02 at 17:59:05 |
| [slm] Do we really need to debate this topic? Homosexuality is a sin. We don't accept anybody as a muslim who says it isn't unless they can show clear proof. The fact that these people are funded by our enemies is sufficient evidence against them. |
| Re: I was never aware of "gay Muslims".... |
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| ltcorpest2 |
| 08/08/02 at 19:54:19 |
| a couple of questions: do muslims want stoning back as a punishment for homosexuality? and We don't accept anybody as a muslim who says it isn't unless they can show clear proof. I am not sure what you mean by not accepting them as a muslim. I thought that in order to become a muslim you need to say that you believe in Allah, believe that Mohammed was his prophet, and (forgive me if i misss something or get something wrong here) believe in the 5 pillars of Islam. If you commit a sin such as adultery or homosexuality, does that make you not a muslim? (kinda bad english sorry) or does it make you a sinner that needs to repent? |
| Re: I was never aware of "gay Muslims".... |
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| mwishka |
| 08/08/02 at 21:20:53 |
| is this even a real issue? i mean, since an act of adultery must be quite literally [i]observed[/i] by FOUR witnesses, and the likelihood of that happening is virtually nil, so the punishment can essentially almost never be carried out. based on this, 4:15: "As for those of your women who are guilty of lewdness, call to witness four of you against them. And if they testify (to the truth of the allegation) then confine them to the houses until death take them or (until) Allah appoint for them a way (through new legislation)." (TMQ - Pickthall) all of this sounds completely unenforceable, so to me it doesn't sound like a good thing to be discussing as a realistic punishment, unless it's emphasized that it's a theoretical perspective. but i share mike's question above: who among you would even DESIRE to enforce this punishment, would want to be the one to carry it out?? have any of you ever watched a person being crushed slowly to death by having huge rocks placed on them? i haven't, nor would i ever participate in such a thing. mwishka |
| Re: I was never aware of "gay Muslims".... |
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| jannah |
| 08/08/02 at 21:21:49 |
| Homosexuality is a Major Sin in Islam, which means it's akin to murder, adultery, stealing and so on. The person who commits this deed can still repent. They don't automatically become "nonMuslims". I think what muqaddir was saying is that if someone believes homosexuality is not a sin in Islam then they do become a disbeliever, because they are saying they don't believe in the tenets of Islam, just like if a person does not pray out of lazyness or sinning they are still Muslim but are committing bad deeds, however once they say "prayer is not part of islam", that is when they reject or deny an agreed upon tenet of islam, which is akin to disavowing the profession of faith. |
| Re: I was never aware of "gay Muslims".... |
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| Fatimah |
| 08/08/02 at 23:26:28 |
| [slm] [quote]i mean, since an act of adultery must be quite literally observed by FOUR witnesses, and the likelihood of that happening is virtually nil, so the punishment can essentially almost never be carried out.[/quote] This is very true, but there are other ways of witnessing these crimes... [quote]Do we really need to debate this topic?[/quote] I agree, I think everything that needs to be said about this crime has been said... [quote]do muslims want stoning back as a punishment for homosexuality?[/quote] [quote]who among you would even DESIRE to enforce this punishment[/quote] Im not speaking for all muslims, just myself. But to answer these questions, I do desire for the Law of Allah to be established on this earth. So, if that means stoning, I accept that. Allahu Alim |
| 08/08/02 at 23:28:04 |
| Fatimah |
| Re: I was never aware of "gay Muslims".... |
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| mwishka |
| 08/09/02 at 09:50:23 |
| sis fatimah, tell me about this... [i]This is very true, but there are [u]other ways[/u] of witnessing these crimes...[/i] i have been taught that this is very explicit, and there is no way around it: either you DO have four EYE-WITNESSES who observed the act or you do NOT. and if you do not, then you do not have the required evidence of guilt to carry out any punishment of death by human action. mwishka |
| Re: I was never aware of "gay Muslims".... |
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| ltcorpest2 |
| 08/09/02 at 10:37:27 |
Im not speaking for all muslims, just myself. But to answer these questions, I do desire for the Law of Allah to be established on this earth. So, if that means stoning, I accept that. Allahu Alim would that punishment be for muslims who are stoned to death because they are homosexual, or would that also be for the general population that is not muslim? |
| Re: I was never aware of "gay Muslims".... |
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| Fatimah |
| 08/09/02 at 11:49:37 |
| [slm] [quote]i have been taught that this is very explicit, and there is no way around it: either you DO have four EYE-WITNESSES who observed the act or you do NOT. and if you do not, then you do not have the required evidence of guilt to carry out any punishment of death by human action.[/quote] Surah An-Nur 6. And for those who accuse their wives, but have no witnesses except themselves, let the testimony of one of them be four testimonies (i.e. testifies four times) by Allâh that he is one of those who speak the truth. 7. And the fifth (testimony) (should be) the invoking of the Curse of Allâh on him if he be of those who tell a lie (against her). 8. But it shall avert the punishment (of stoning to death) from her, if she bears witness four times by Allâh, that he (her husband) is telling a lie. 9. And the fifth (testimony) should be that the Wrath of Allâh be upon her if he (her husband) speaks the truth. [quote]would that punishment be for muslims who are stoned to death because they are homosexual, or would that also be for the general population that is not muslim?[/quote] It would apply to anyone living under the Islamic law, whether Muslim or not. For example, Egypt is a Muslim country and there are quite a bit of Christians who live here, if Egypt were to apply the Law of Allah, it would be for everyone living in this country. Allahu Alim |
| Re: I was never aware of "gay Muslims".... |
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| ltcorpest2 |
| 08/09/02 at 18:40:51 |
| do any muslims struggle with the fact that punishment for certain actions like this is so harsh? Do most muslims want sharia that would entail this type punishment ? |
| Re: I was never aware of "gay Muslims".... |
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| jannah |
| 08/09/02 at 19:21:30 |
| It may seem "harsh" if you are looking at it without understanding the context, the whole system of Islam. However, part of Islam is to believe in the Islamic Law, and since it is from God for the good of mankind why would we object to it :) BTW shariah applies to all people in the land of Islam, but there are also NonMuslim family courts (Christian, Jewish) for their own civil family laws and punishments. |
| Re: I was never aware of "gay Muslims".... |
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| Abu_Mustafa |
| 08/09/02 at 19:25:34 |
| [slm] [quote author=ltcorpest2 link=board=ummah;num=1028659323;start=15#26 date=08/09/02 at 18:40:51]do any muslims struggle with the fact that punishment for certain actions like this is so harsh? Do most muslims want sharia that would entail this type punishment ? [/quote] Allah Subhana Talla, the Almighty is perfect. Everything created by HIM is percet, So is Islam perfected by Allah Subhana Talla for us. If you are a true momin, and want to follow what Allah talla has prescribed for you then there is no question of not wanting the law. We cannot pick and choose what we want to follow and not. besides ltcorpest2 have you looked at the crime rate in Saudi Arabia. It is far less then any other country in the west ( I am not saying they apply the law perfectly or justly). Just a thought. Jazakallah Khair, Abu Mustafa |
| Re: I was never aware of "gay Muslims".... |
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| Fatimah |
| 08/10/02 at 02:59:36 |
| [slm] Isn't punishment in the hereafter more 'harsh' than the punishment in this life?? Question: If a person do a sin in this world, and then get the punishment for it, will he then get a pqnishment for the same sin after his death? For example if a person commits adultery, or steal, then he is gets death punishment, or get his hand cut off, will he then get a punishment for that sin in the Hereafter? If he is homosexual and gets stoned to death, is he then free from the fire of hell? Could you please tell me the answer in light of Hadeeth and Quran ? Answer: Praise be to Allaah. Al-Bukhaari (may Allaah have mercy on him) narrated in his Saheeh (3/143, no. 3679) with his isnaad that ‘Ubaadah ibn al-Saamit, one of those who was present at Badr with the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), said that one of those who had been present at al-‘Aqabah told him: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, with a group of his Sahaabah standing around him: “Come and give me your oath of allegiance, promising that you will not associate anything in worship with Allaah, or steal, or commit zinaa (illegal sexual activity), or kill your children, or utter slander intentionally forging falsehood (by wrongfully attributing illegitimate children to husbands) [cf 60:12], or disobey me with regard to anything good (ma’roof). Whoever among you fulfils this oath, his reward will be due from Allaah, and whoever commits any of these sins and is punished for it in this world, this will be an expiation for him. Whoever commits any of these sins and Allaah conceals it for him, then his case rests with Allaah – if He wills, He will punish him and if He wills, He will forgive him.” So they gave their oath of allegiance to him on that basis. Al-Haafiz said in al-Fath (1/6):“What we learn from this hadeeth is that the carrying out of the punishment is an expiation for the sin, even if the one on whom the hadd is carried out does not repent. This is the view of the majority. It was also said that he has to repent – this was stated by some of the Taabi’een.” The previous hadeeth was also narrated by al-Tirmidhi in his Sunan. After quoting it, he said: “Al-Shaafa’i said concerning this topic: I have not heard any better indication than this hadeeth to show that the hudood (punishments) are an expiation for the people on whom they are carried out. Al-Shaafa’i said: if a person commits a sin and Allaah conceals it for him, I prefer for him to keep it concealed and to repent, keeping the matter between himself and Allaah. Something similar was narrated from Abu Bakr and ‘Umar, that they commanded a man to conceal his sin.” (Sunan al-Tirmidhi, 1439). So there is no need for the person who commits a punishable sin to go to the Qaadi (judge) and confess and ask for the hadd to be carried out on him; rather, he is encouraged to keep it to himself and to repent, keeping the matter between himself and Allaah, may He be glorified, and to do lots of righteous deeds, for good deeds cancel out bad deeds, and the one who repents from sin is like one who did not sin at all. We ask Allaah to keep us safe and to forgive us. May Allaah bless our Prophet Muhammad. Islam Q&A Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid (www.islam-qa.com) |
| Re: I was never aware of "gay Muslims".... |
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| ltcorpest2 |
| 08/10/02 at 10:10:58 |
| If you are a true momin, and want to follow what Allah talla has prescribed for you then there is no question of not wanting the law. We cannot pick and choose what we want to follow and not. as a muslim living in the USA or in any country that does not follow muslim law, Do you feel that you are not following God's command by stoning homosexuals to death? (since this is the topic here i am using them as the example) Does that put you in a difficult postion of not obeying God's law? |
| Re: I was never aware of "gay Muslims".... |
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| jannah |
| 08/10/02 at 11:04:52 |
| ltcorpest, there is no vigilantism in Islam. It's a whole system including judges, cases, evidence, the fine points of law, wording and so on. Since there is no Islamic state it is difficult to practice Shariah, but inshaAllah one day.... So in this case, we personally follow the shariah rule in this, but we are not a state and we have no power to enforce this on others. In this country, culturally there are alot of things that are accepted here that Muslims consider wrong. ie sexual relationships before marriage, certain types of clothing, even things like lying which polls say are the norm. It is sad to see cases where people commit sins, so we should work to educate people and bring them back to a moral way. As an aside, you seem to have a lot of questions about the Shariah. I think if you study Islamic law more indepth you'll see how flexible and amazing it is. I think many nonMuslims are afraid of the shariah because they see it as something that limits their freedom, but don't realize that any type of law limits their freedom already. There really is no need to fear it. Even as a nonMuslim under shariah your rights are protected -- such as the rights of life, freedom of religion, right to own property etc.. So just like the United States penal code governs the US, so does the Shariah, trying to protect the rights of all people. What's the difference between American penal code and Islamic penal code.. that's an interesting study. |
| Re: I was never aware of "gay Muslims".... |
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| ltcorpest2 |
| 08/10/02 at 11:22:41 |
| Since there is no Islamic state it is difficult to practice Shariah, but inshaAllah one day.... Do you see in any part of the world where there is sharia being established or a general trend in the muslim world for that being the case, or do you think that the world is getting more secular? I have heard that Saudi Arabia and their laws, would they not be considered a muslim state? I know the taliban are considered taboo, but did people consider them an Islamic state? or if there are any other examples of an imsalic state or a country trying to head in that direction i would be interested to know. the interest in sharia, is a lot by this post. As a Christian I still am unsettled on God's judgements, and it is interesting to hear that opinions about stoning, and the comfortablity with it, I dont' know how i would react if God told me to stone someone. |
| Re: I was never aware of "gay Muslims".... |
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| humble_muslim |
| 08/10/02 at 13:49:37 |
| Mike, Your own bible tells you to stone the adulterer. How do you feel about not following you bible ? |
| NS |
| Re: I was never aware of "gay Muslims".... |
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| Ayla_A |
| 08/10/02 at 14:37:08 |
| [slm] While reading all these stories of stoning I decided to check into some things that I have been told about. As far as I know the only people that should be stoned to death for committing Zinna is married people. (from hadith) If a married person committs zinna with an unmarried person, the unmarried person only gets lashes. There is no mention of stoning in the Quran at all. Verse 24:2 says someone guilty of adultery or fornication should be given lashes as well. I believe the hadith contradicts the Quran so we should take the Quran over hadith right? I believe that this punishment has been brought into Islam left over from the Torah, not from the Quran. Even the Prophet [saw] applied the jewish law to the Jewish people. So if a "out" homosexual is only having intercourse with an unmarried person, and he himself is unmarried would not the punishment be only 100 lashes, and that is if 4 witnesses saw them doing it? I am posting my references here. Could someone please tell me if the hadith that I post are strong or weak hadith (I don't know how to tell) (These are from the Yusef Ali translation) 24:2 The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment. These group of verses are talking about being stoned by non-believers 36:16. They said: "Our Lord doth know that we have been sent on a mission to you: 36:17. "And our duty is only to proclaim the clear Message." 36:18. The (people) said: "for us, we augur an evil omen from you: if ye desist not, we will certainly stone you. And a grievous punishment indeed will be inflicted on you by us." 36:19. They said: "Your evil omens are with yourselves: (deem ye this an evil omen). If ye are admonished? Nay, but ye are a people transgressing all bounds!" 36:20. Then there came running, from the farthest part of the City, a man, saying, "O my people! Obey the apostles: Sahih Bukhari - Volume 4, Book 56, Number 829: Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar: The Jews came to Allah's Apostle and told him that a man and a woman from amongst them had committed illegal sexual intercourse. Allah's Apostle said to them, "What do you find in the Torah (old Testament) about the legal punishment of Ar-Rajm (stoning)?" They replied, (But) we announce their crime and lash them." Abdullah bin Salam said, "You are telling a lie; Torah contains the order of Rajm." They brought and opened the Torah and one of them solaced his hand on the Verse of Rajm and read the verses preceding and following it. Abdullah bin Salam said to him, "Lift your hand." When he lifted his hand, the Verse of Rajm was written there. They said, "Muhammad has told the truth; the Torah has the Verse of Rajm. The Prophet then gave the order that both of them should be stoned to death. ('Abdullah bin 'Umar said, "I saw the man leaning over the woman to shelter her from the stones." Volume 5, Book 58, Number 188: Narrated 'Amr bin Maimun: During the pre-lslamic period of ignorance I saw a she-monkey surrounded by a number of monkeys. They were all stoning it, because it had committed illegal sexual intercourse. I too, stoned it along with them. Volume 8, Book 78, Number 629: Narrated Abu Huraira and Zaid bin Khalid: Two men had a dispute in the presence of Allah's Apostle. One of them said, "O Allah's Apostle! Judge between us according to Allah's Laws." The other who was wiser, said, "Yes, O Allah's Apostle! Judge between us according to Allah's Laws and allow me to speak. The Prophet said, "Speak." He said, "My son was a laborer serving this (person) and he committed illegal sexual intercourse with his wife, The people said that my son is to be stoned to death, but I ransomed him with one-hundred sheep and a slave girl. Then I asked the learned people, who informed me that my son should receive one hundred lashes and will be exiled for one year, and stoning will be the lot for the man's wife." Allah's Apostle said, "Indeed, by Him in Whose Hand my soul is, I will judge between you according to Allah's Laws: As for your sheep and slave girl, they are to be returned to you." Then he scourged his son one hundred lashes and exiled him for one year. Then Unais Al-Aslami was ordered to go to the wife of the second man, and if she confessed (the crime), then stone her to death. She did confess, so he stoned her to death. Volume 8, Book 82, Number 805: Narrated Jabir bin Abdullah Al-Ansari: A man from the tribe of Bani Aslam came to Allah's Apostle and Informed him that he had committed illegal sexual intercourse and bore witness four times against himself. Allah's Apostle ordered him to be stoned to death as he was a married Person. [wlm] :-) Ayla_A :-) |
| Re: I was never aware of "gay Muslims".... |
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| Fatimah |
| 08/10/02 at 15:50:46 |
| [slm] [quote]There is no mention of stoning in the Quran at all. Verse 24:2 says someone guilty of adultery or fornication should be given lashes as well. I believe the hadith contradicts the Quran so we should take the Quran over hadith right?[/quote] Verse 24:2 only talks about fornication. It says the fornicatress and the fornicator. Authentic hadith will NEVER contradict the Quran. [quote]I believe that this punishment has been brought into Islam left over from the Torah, not from the Quran. Even the Prophet applied the jewish law to the Jewish people.[/quote] Everything the Prophet (saw) did or said is from Allah. It is wrong to say this was left over from the Torah. He applied the Law in which Allah sent down to him, and in this case it was the same law that was in the Torah. [quote]So if a "out" homosexual is only having intercourse with an unmarried person, and he himself is unmarried would not the punishment be only 100 lashes, and that is if 4 witnesses saw them doing it?[/quote] No, this is not true. In the authentic hadith I stated earlier in this thread the Prophet (saw) told us to kill the homosexual. (married or not) Of coarse you would need witnesses to do this. [quote]24:2 The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.[/quote] This is translated wrong. The Arabic does not mention adultery whatsoever. It says the fornicatress and the fornicator, flog them both 100 lashes…….. As you can see, all of the hadiths that mention a married person committing this crime is stoned, while an unmarried person gets lashed. This does not contradict the Quran in any way, it complies with it. Allahu Alim. |
| 08/10/02 at 15:53:39 |
| Fatimah |
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| ltcorpest2 |
| 08/10/02 at 16:06:26 |
| as always, i try not to quote the bible, but you should look up how Jesus dealt with the adulterer. he allowed it, but only those who are without sin. any takers? |
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| ltcorpest2 |
| 08/10/02 at 16:08:15 |
| oopps, allowed stoning, not adultery |
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| Ayla_A |
| 08/10/02 at 16:19:51 |
| [slm] [quote] Everything the Prophet (saw) did or said is from Allah. It is wrong to say this was left over from the Torah. He applied the Law in which Allah sent down to him, and in this case it was the same law that was in the Torah[/quote] While I agree with you on this, we all know that hadith were not promised to be protected, while the Quran was. [quote] This is translated wrong. The Arabic does not mention adultery whatsoever. It says the fornicatress and the fornicator, flog them both 100 lashes…….. [/quote] 24: 2. (As for) the fornicatress and the fornicator, flog each of them, (giving) a hundred stripes, and let not pity for them detain you in the matter of obedience to Allah, if you believe in Allah and the last day, and let a party of believers witness their chastisement. 24:3. The fornicator shall not marry any but a fornicatress or idolatress, and (as for) the fornicatress, none shall marry her but a fornicator or an idolater; and it is forbidden to the believers. So when we use the transliteration that says about the fornicator (which I believe by going to dictionary.com says this [quote]fornicator \For"ni*ca`tor\, n. [F. fornicateur, OF. fornicator, from L. fornicator.] An unmarried person, male or female, who has criminal intercourse with the other sex; one guilty of fornication. Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- fornicator n : someone who commits adultery [syn: adulterer] [/quote] So there is still 2 meanings to the word fornicator so to me it still applies. Could you if possible type the word in arabic from the Quran that refers to "fornicator". Thanks [wlm] Ayla_A |
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| jannah |
| 08/10/02 at 16:51:26 |
| [quote]Do you see in any part of the world where there is sharia being established or a general trend in the muslim world for that being the case, or do you think that the world is getting more secular? [/quote] There's no "muslim" country in the world today that is under Islamic shariah. Many of the countries in the middle east, after colonialism, adopted the civil and penal codes of european countries. (ironic huh). [quote] I have heard that Saudi Arabia and their laws, would they not be considered a muslim state? [/quote] Saudi Arabia is a monarchy. They do have many laws that are Islamic, but they are still not an Islamic state. [quote] I know the taliban are considered taboo, but did people consider them an Islamic state? [/quote] I will limit the discussion here to say that perhaps an Islamic state was their goal, but their implementation and understanding had much to be desired. [quote] or if there are any other examples of an imsalic state or a country trying to head in that direction i would be interested to know. [/quote] Sudan looked like it was heading there, but don't know where it is now. There are many people that want Shariah, but there are also many countries that will never allow it because they want to protect their own interests. This is why popular Islamic groups calling for this are tortured and jailed in many countries like Egypt and Saudi. [quote] the interest in sharia, is a lot by this post. As a Christian I still am unsettled on God's judgements, and it is interesting to hear that opinions about stoning, and the comfortablity with it, I dont' know how i would react if God told me to stone someone. [/quote] Well, on the face of it I can see why it seems scary to people. Every read The Lottery by Shirley Jackson!! But if the law is there, the person knew it, was convicted in court with all the evidence -- and for this punishment you have to have very very conclusive evidence, if you believe the rules are from God to protect society, then why not. Another aspect is that this punishment here is an expiation for their sin. Perhaps I wouldn't want to be the one to throw the switch (or do the stoning) but I'd be supportive of the laws. I think one thing to note about Islamic law compared to say American law is that it is designed more to protect society than to allow individual freedoms. There is a really beautiful and interesting analysis essay on Islamic law I have and for years I've thought about typing/scanning it in but just don't have the time. I would be happy to copy it and send it to you after I come back from India though. |
| 08/10/02 at 17:05:40 |
| jannah |
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| Fatimah |
| 08/10/02 at 17:00:33 |
| [slm] ÇáÒÇäíÉ (this is a female fornicator) ÇáÒÇäì (this is a male fornicator) You cannot reject hadith that are proven to be authentic. Hadith explain the Quran, they will never contradict the Quran if they are authentic. Narrated Jabir bin Abdullah Al-Ansari: A man from the tribe of Bani Aslam came to Allah's Apostle and Informed him that he had committed illegal sexual intercourse and bore witness four times against himself. Allah's Apostle ordered him to be stoned to death as he was a married Person. this is authentic Narrated Abu Huraira and Zaid bin Khalid: Two men had a dispute in the presence of Allah's Apostle. One of them said, "O Allah's Apostle! Judge between us according to Allah's Laws." The other who was wiser, said, "Yes, O Allah's Apostle! Judge between us according to Allah's Laws and allow me to speak. The Prophet said, "Speak." He said, "My son was a laborer serving this (person) and he committed illegal sexual intercourse with his wife, The people said that my son is to be stoned to death, but I ransomed him with one-hundred sheep and a slave girl. Then I asked the learned people, who informed me that my son should receive one hundred lashes and will be exiled for one year, and stoning will be the lot for the man's wife." Allah's Apostle said, "Indeed, by Him in Whose Hand my soul is, I will judge between you according to Allah's Laws: As for your sheep and slave girl, they are to be returned to you." Then he scourged his son one hundred lashes and exiled him for one year. Then Unais Al-Aslami was ordered to go to the wife of the second man, and if she confessed (the crime), then stone her to death. She did confess, so he stoned her to death. this is also authentic Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar: The Jews came to Allah's Apostle and told him that a man and a woman from amongst them had committed illegal sexual intercourse. Allah's Apostle said to them, "What do you find in the Torah (old Testament) about the legal punishment of Ar-Rajm (stoning)?" They replied, (But) we announce their crime and lash them." Abdullah bin Salam said, "You are telling a lie; Torah contains the order of Rajm." They brought and opened the Torah and one of them solaced his hand on the Verse of Rajm and read the verses preceding and following it. Abdullah bin Salam said to him, "Lift your hand." When he lifted his hand, the Verse of Rajm was written there. They said, "Muhammad has told the truth; the Torah has the Verse of Rajm. The Prophet then gave the order that both of them should be stoned to death. ('Abdullah bin 'Umar said, "I saw the man leaning over the woman to shelter her from the stones."this is also authentic The hadeeth of the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) is a revelation (wahy) from his Lord. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “Your companion (Muhammad) has neither gone astray nor has erred. Nor does he speak of (his own) desire. It is only a Revelation revealed” [al-Najm 53:2-4] |
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| Ayla_A |
| 08/10/02 at 17:40:46 |
| [slm] [quote] ÇáÒÇäíÉ (this is a female fornicator) ÇáÒÇäì (this is a male fornicator) [/quote] I have ran both of these words through many many arabic english translators and they all say it means Adulter or Adulteress. I know that original arabic has changed meanings over the years, but this leads to confusion for me. So the hadith is authentic but I guess I am still struggling with this. One of the wonderful things that led me to Islam is the ability to search for myself and find the answers. [wlm] Ayla_A |
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| Fatimah |
| 08/10/02 at 18:08:42 |
| [slm] I know what you mean by searching for yourself ukhti..I love that too. I spend most of my time reading and looking things up. I think the best thing to do is look it up in a Tafsir. InshaAllah I will ask my husband to help me with this.. salam |
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| jannah |
| 08/10/02 at 18:36:27 |
| this is a nice article on Islamic Law: Myths & Realities by Denis J. Wiechman, Jerry D. Kendall, and Mohammad K. Azarian http://muslim-canada.org/Islam_myths.htm here's something even more ironic :) but a good place to learn about the criminal justice system of many countries, the only thing is I couldn't find Saudi or Sudan :( http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/abstract/wfcj.htm This factbook, developed under a BJS grant, provides narrative descriptions of the criminal justice systems of countries around the world. These 42 country descriptions are written to a common template so that comparisons of similar functions in different countries can be easily made. They were completed in mid-1993, although the most recent data available for inclusion were sometimes for a year or two earlier. |
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| Sparrow |
| 08/10/02 at 21:00:01 |
| Hi all, I'm not sure this is apropros to the conversation here, but I have a question: a lot of times I hear the comment "that's cultural, not Islam" in response to critisicms of things like honor killings, that sort of unpleasantness. I've also heard the theory that a lot of poorer Muslims have never actually read the Quran, being illiterate, so they don't actually know what it says for themselves, or what is cultural vs. authentic. So, here's my question: aren't there people in those communities who *do* know the Quran inside out, and why don't they pass on the correct word? Curious, Sparrow |
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| jannah |
| 08/10/02 at 22:00:50 |
| Hi sparrow, long time no see :) True there are a lot of wack things going on in the world, and the things you mentioned like honor killings, abuse of women etc are not part of Islam. I don't think it's a question of poverty alone. It is mostly a question of ignorance. For example if there is a village in say the backwoods of mountains of Afghanistan, it may be a part of their tribal factions code of honor that they kill certain women. Do they know that's against Islam? I doubt they wouldn't know. Alot of people in this world do things and justify it some way or another unfortuantely. Even if the knowledgable people came to them and explained that it wasn't, who's to say they would follow that? We should try harder to educate the masses of Muslims in rural isolated areas, those who practice culturalism etc on their religion. Missionaries take it upon themselves to go do it even under the threat of jail...so it's unfortunate we don't work towards it... |
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| muqaddar |
| 08/10/02 at 22:08:30 |
| [slm] Well Sparrow have you ever heard the story of Hadrat Saeed (ra) the tabi'yeen who tried to hide himself in an oasis and teach qu'ran there?..his fame eventually spread though it was the last thing he wanted and he was executed because he refused to bow to a tyrant the tyrant didn't live a happy and long 13 days afterwards though either, as hadrat saeed had promised him.... anyway the alims are all locked up in busharaf's torture chambers or bubarak's concentration camps... any that do survive do so by keeping a low profile in villages and area's off the beaten track. the rest have sold their god and sprout words that keep them in favour with the government everytime it is asked to butcher his sheep |
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| sofia |
| 08/11/02 at 22:58:20 |
| As-salaamu 'alaikum wa rahmatullah While it's true that both Jews and Christians were commanded with the same punishment for adultery, one thing to keep in mind (haven't read this whole thread yet, so maybe it's already been mentioned): Under Islamic law (shari'ah), a Muslim/the community at large, is not to witness any type of murder/killing, etc unless it's for hudood law (imagine how much we've seen growing up? or in one hour of television/video-games?). Only in that case, is it permissible for the community to witness the punishment, as a deterrant. Otherwise, violence is a pretty serious thing, and not to be taken as a form of entertainment. Now, an interesting thing about proving guilt under shari'ah is that it's pretty difficult. For example, you need 4 witnesses who saw the act of adultery (ie, the actual act), and the witnesses should be practicing Muslims, for their testimony to be upheld in court. How could that happen unless the act was indeed a lewd, PUBLIC act (a crime even in the states!), since spying is strictly prohibited in Islam? That's exactly the point; you'd have to commit the act in public. Otherwise, it's between the sinner and God. There is a reason for strict conditions when it comes to witnesses, and unfortunately, it's not always correctly upheld in "Muslim countries." Another example is that of theft. Most scholars contend that the act has to be done while living in an otherwise prosperous time, when there is no reason for theft (the poor have to be taken care of by the Islamic ruler, as it's his duty. If there is widespread hunger/famine, stealing food is not punishable). So if there's no reason for the theft, *and* that which is stolen is worth a certain amount, then the punishment can be brought on. Otherwise, there is a story during, I believe, Omar's time, when someone complained to Omar (who was the khaleefah at the time) that his neighbor stole some food from his orchard. Omar actually blamed the first guy, saying, you should have taken care of the rights of your neighbor (as an aside: in Islam, we're taught that we should not fill our bellies if our neighbor goes hungry), rather than let him go hungry. Someone please correct if I'm wrong on this story. And regarding types of punishments, whether inflicted on Muslims or non-Muslims: hey, it doesn't matter who you are in the U.S., you are punishable for a crime (sometimes, even if you didn't do it, just like in many other places) based on the laws of the country. I really can't take a case to court if I happen to think committing a certain act that is unlawful in the states is actually lawful just for me. Personally, I find the "fryer" and putting convicts in cells with other, potentially dangerous, convicts quite brutal, but hey. No one said punishment was supposed to be enjoyable. Otherwise, the US system of law is not a whole lot different from Islamic law (at least the intent behind it), although many may disagree with me. Allahu'alim. |
| NS |
| 08/11/02 at 23:01:50 |
| sofia |
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