Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board

A R C H I V E S

The US is now a threat to the rest of the world

Madina Archives


Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board

The US is now a threat to the rest of the world
BroHanif
08/06/02 at 17:43:32
http://www.guardian.co.uk/bush/story/0,7369,769755,00.html

The logic of empire

The US is now a threat to the rest of the world. The sensible response is non-cooperation

George Monbiot
Tuesday August 6, 2002
The Guardian

There is something almost comical about the prospect of George Bush waging war on another nation because that nation has defied international law. Since Bush came to office, the United States government has torn up more international treaties and disregarded more UN conventions than the rest of the world has in 20 years.
It has scuppered the biological weapons convention while experimenting, illegally, with biological weapons of its own. It has refused to grant chemical weapons inspectors full access to its laboratories, and has destroyed attempts to launch chemical inspections in Iraq. It has ripped up the anti-ballistic missile treaty, and appears to be ready to violate the nuclear test ban treaty. It has permitted CIA hit squads to recommence covert operations of the kind that included, in the past, the assassination of foreign heads of state. It has sabotaged the small arms treaty, undermined the international criminal court, refused to sign the climate change protocol and, last month, sought to immobilise the UN convention against torture so that it could keep foreign observers out of its prison camp in Guantanamo Bay. Even its preparedness to go to war with Iraq without a mandate from the UN security council is a defiance of international law far graver than Saddam Hussein's non-compliance with UN weapons inspectors.

But the US government's declaration of impending war has, in truth, nothing to do with weapons inspections. On Saturday John Bolton, the US official charged, hilariously, with "arms control", told the Today programme that "our policy ... insists on regime change in Baghdad and that policy will not be altered, whether inspectors go in or not". The US government's justification for whupping Saddam has now changed twice. At first, Iraq was named as a potential target because it was "assisting al-Qaida". This turned out to be untrue. Then the US government claimed that Iraq had to be attacked because it could be developing weapons of mass destruction, and was refusing to allow the weapons inspectors to find out if this were so. Now, as the promised evidence has failed to materialise, the weapons issue has been dropped. The new reason for war is Saddam Hussein's very existence. This, at least, has the advantage of being verifiable. It should surely be obvious by now that the decision to wage war on Iraq came first, and the justification later.

Other than the age-old issue of oil supply, this is a war without strategic purpose. The US government is not afraid of Saddam Hussein, however hard it tries to scare its own people. There is no evidence that Iraq is sponsoring terrorism against America. Saddam is well aware that if he attacks another nation with weapons of mass destruction, he can expect to be nuked. He presents no more of a threat to the world now than he has done for the past 10 years.

But the US government has several pressing domestic reasons for going to war. The first is that attacking Iraq gives the impression that the flagging "war on terror" is going somewhere. The second is that the people of all super-dominant nations love war. As Bush found in Afghanistan, whacking foreigners wins votes. Allied to this concern is the need to distract attention from the financial scandals in which both the president and vice-president are enmeshed. Already, in this respect, the impending war seems to be working rather well.

The United States also possesses a vast military-industrial complex that is in constant need of conflict in order to justify its staggeringly expensive existence. Perhaps more importantly than any of these factors, the hawks who control the White House perceive that perpetual war results in the perpetual demand for their services. And there is scarcely a better formula for perpetual war, with both terrorists and other Arab nations, than the invasion of Iraq. The hawks know that they will win, whoever loses. In other words, if the US were not preparing to attack Iraq, it would be preparing to attack another nation. The US will go to war with that country because it needs a country with which to go to war.

Tony Blair also has several pressing reasons for supporting an invasion. By appeasing George Bush, he placates Britain's rightwing press. Standing on Bush's shoulders, he can assert a claim to global leadership more credible than that of other European leaders, while defending Britain's anomalous position as a permanent member of the UN security council. Within Europe, his relationship with the president grants him the eminent role of broker and interpreter of power.

By invoking the "special relationship", Blair also avoids the greatest challenge any prime minister has faced since the second world war. This challenge is to recognise and act upon the conclusion of any objective analysis of global power: namely that the greatest threat to world peace is not Saddam Hussein, but George Bush. The nation that in the past has been our firmest friend is becoming instead our foremost enemy.

As the US government discovers that it can threaten and attack other nations with impunity, it will surely soon begin to threaten countries that have numbered among its allies. As its insatiable demand for resources prompts ever bolder colonial adventures, it will come to interfere directly with the strategic interests of other quasi-imperial states. As it refuses to take responsibility for the consequences of the use of those resources, it threatens the rest of the world with environmental disaster. It has become openly contemptuous of other governments and prepared to dispose of any treaty or agreement that impedes its strategic objectives. It is starting to construct a new generation of nuclear weapons, and appears to be ready to use them pre-emptively. It could be about to ignite an inferno in the Middle East, into which the rest of the world would be sucked.

The United States, in other words, behaves like any other imperial power. Imperial powers expand their empires until they meet with overwhelming resistance.

For Britain to abandon the special relationship would be to accept that this is happening. To accept that the US presents a danger to the rest of the world would be to acknowledge the need to resist it. Resisting the United States would be the most daring reversal of policy a British government has undertaken for over 60 years.

We can resist the US neither by military nor economic means, but we can resist it diplomatically. The only safe and sensible response to American power is a policy of non-cooperation. Britain and the rest of Europe should impede, at the diplomatic level, all US attempts to act unilaterally. We should launch independent efforts to resolve the Iraq crisis and the conflict between Israel and Palestine. And we should cross our fingers and hope that a combination of economic mismanagement, gangster capitalism and excessive military spending will reduce America's power to the extent that it ceases to use the rest of the world as its doormat. Only when the US can accept its role as a nation whose interests must be balanced with those of all other nations can we resume a friendship that was once, if briefly, founded upon the principles of justice
Re: The US is now a threat to the rest of the worl
humble_muslim
08/06/02 at 20:06:39
[slm]

The only thing I can say is how can Americans be so dumb as to let their own leader put the whole world in jeopardy ?
NS
Re: The US is now a threat to the rest of the worl
saadia
08/07/02 at 08:58:13
 [slm]

Hey now, not all American's are dumb! My family didn't vote for Bush!

[wlm]
Re: The US is now a threat to the rest of the worl
jaihoon
08/07/02 at 10:41:25
:) Allah bless your family. At least they didn't commit that 'democratic' mistake
08/07/02 at 10:42:40
jaihoon
Re: The US is now a threat to the rest of the worl
humble_muslim
08/07/02 at 10:51:12
[slm]

In all seriousness, how can Americans be so blind to what's really going on ?
NS
Re: The US is now a threat to the rest of the worl
Red
08/07/02 at 11:29:09
[slm],

A simple answer to your question humble muslim is that their living a good life and who cares about anything else? Why do so many people try coming over here? All we Americans care about is that the economy is still rolling and that are rights are not infringed, and to everybody else in this world  we say "Sorry, but you're just not important" , as long as their not bothering us. Its kinda sad, that as long as were not living in terror like that day in september 11, nothing gets us going as long as our paychecks keep coming, i got my new bmw and have a nice roof over my head. We don't care nothin about foreign policy or what our president is doing.

wasalam,
red
Re: The US is now a threat to the rest of the worl
jannah
08/08/02 at 04:35:23
[slm]

Hey hey.. just because we dislike American foreign policy and domestic policy now too (ie profiling, harassment of muslims etc), we shouldn't generalize it to the American people.

Honestly if you sat down and talked to people one on one here I have no doubt they would nod and agree about what is right and wrong, in Palestine and here. Because one thing that is part of the American culture is fairness.

The problem you see stems from the fact that many  Americans, including myself, have been raised with little to almost no in-depth education about the rest of the world.  This includes high school and college, the media television, newspapers, popular publications and so on.  I was never taught to sift through the news, to analyze what I heard and read, going to independent sources, understanding the vested interests of the parties involved and so on. A lot of things I only came to realize after taking a intensive mass communications class. I mean if everday all you got about world politics was a two minute blurb, it wouldn't necessarily be your priority to be upset about anything enough to do anything..

Despite this you see there are many Americans who also take the time to seek out unbiased sources of information. Even "biased" sites on the other side like this message board :) There are many who are not "blind to US foreign policy" and are actively trying to change it.  I don't know about you, but I saw tens of thousands of Americans rallying in DC for NO war against Iraq and a stop to the Israeli atrocities.

So I understand your frustration all too well, but please be careful when  making generalizations like that and saying stuff like "All Americans are dumb".  It's not true. It kinda reminds me of my having to explain to people that all Muslims are not terrorists ;)

There are good people and corrupt leaders everywhere. The govermental machine is hard to penetrate, but if we can at least continue to reach the American people we have hope.  


Re: The US is now a threat to the rest of the worl
Sparrow
08/08/02 at 08:36:57
I also think Americans are the most distracted people in the world...many are too busy wondering why Jennifer Lopez can't hold a marriage together or Daryl Strawberry can't get off coke to read up on world events.  I heard a theory once that baseball was invented and promoted as the "national past time" in order to keep the masses occupied and not thinking about the fact their lives were basically awful.  Can't help but think that that applies to many Americans these days, and not just with sports.

Sparrow
Re: The US is now a threat to the rest of the worl
Red
08/08/02 at 11:23:18
[slm],

Woops, I am sorry i didn't mean to offend anybody. Your probably right i shouldn't have generalized, i didn't mean to make it sound like "all americans are dumb" :) But more like what you said Sparrow that we can be a bit distracted to pay attention to what are prez is doing with foreign policy, including myself.

And, no not all americans are like that. I too, when to the DC rally, it was amazing to see so many differnet people supporting against Israeli occupation.

Sorry, maybe it was a moment of being mad over whats been going lately or Palestine something like that, but i should not have made any generalizations.  :)

wasalam,
red
08/08/02 at 11:52:47
Red
Re: The US is now a threat to the rest of the worl
humble_muslim
08/08/02 at 11:54:23
[slm]

If you did a poll, and asked Americans whether they supported Ameircan attack on Iraq, I'm sure a majority would say yes.
NS
Re: The US is now a threat to the rest of the worl
muqaddar
08/08/02 at 16:45:57
[slm]

hold that thought about baseball Sparrow..

did anybody see that recent excellent 5 part series on
how freuds nephew used freuds theories on subconscious
desires to promote consumerism in america when capitalism
looked doomed in the '30's? because people simply
didn't want to buy a new model of the same thing they had to
be persuaded to keep up with the joneses

actually though Sparrow despite their claims to be 'advanced'
or 'modern' etc all of the tricks are old ...bread and circuses
anyone? and the romans used to put on sex shows too

 ultimately Hitler picked up on his theories of mass manipulation
 and used them in Germany...

 
Re: The US is now a threat to the rest of the worl
mwishka
08/08/02 at 18:15:14
brother hamayoun,

sadly, in more than one true sense, the american people don't even choose their leaders - we only have the two mirror parties participating, and i'm sure you know that our presidential elections in particular are about as far from a democratic process as you can get - "electors", strangely selected by some weird process involving, again, the two parties, are the ones who choose the president.  the original role of the "electoral college" (hint hint) was to be sure that the uneducated masses weren't making such a critical decision, and their continued role is said to be so that the silly population of the US doesn't do something like waste our time requiring a run-off election (oh the cost!  what other concern is there in american politics??), or, perhaps more importantly, "accidentally" selecting the wrong president... ;)    and, i'm sure you also know that we have non-representative representation at all national levels (if you're representative you can't get "elected", or appointed and confirmed), almost all state levels, and even at the local level in many places.

so, um, first of all, i'm not so sure the President of the United States of America and the people of the US have all that much to do with each other as entities.  whether or not we WANT to have something "to do" with this president is kind of out of our hands, because the idea of government really doesn't exist in this country anymore - now we just have an "Adminstration", who could be running anything from a mega-chain of hotdog stands to a hospital linen supply company to a gumball vending machine distributor.  they work hard to keep themselves protected from the people, as is so obvious in the chain of events leading to this um "election" of george bush senior (i mean "41") again, in the person of his little boy.

the US has one of the most geographically diverse populations, and with that, one of the most polarized populations, with money being the measure of that polarity, not even family political history, religion, heritage, ethnicity or anything else.

"they've got you where they want you"  (poison girls)....yep, they like to keep us there, too, and they can and they do, because if there's noo such thing as local economies anymore people will just fight each other over the (now constant shuffling and) relocation of employers, basing this decision not entirely wroongly (in this coountry) on mere desire to climb the economic ladder, knowing full well that most people are towards the bottom.  but no one wants to be so identified and rather than working to change anything, it's "better" in terms of social status, and therefore whatever small amount of "power" you can feel you have, to deny who your best allies really are, because if - as they are for most people in the US - they're beside you or >gulp< "belw' you, who'd want to acknowledge that?  not a good american, that's for sure.

and, it seems that we as a country have had a throwback of attitude to about the 1920s and 30s, when europeans and americans were viewing the rest of the world as what would these days be called an on-line catalogue.  though i would add that many of their efforts to reach the rest of the world resulted in humanitarian gain for many places - after that the spread of american and european ideas mostly resulted in taint and r=torment and devastation.  and of course, we tend to only focus on whatever areas of the world are trendy at one particular moment, and, of course, the hippest of the hip are the ones to decide who the new 'suffering" people of the world are.

not only do we not know much of anything about the rest of the world, we just don't want to.  it's a little too much to ask, don't you think?  i mean what will it get us?  oh, is there a way to profit from that knowledge - well, then, we better get that information into our schools, pronto, and maybe we'll let edison one decide just how that should be done...  we as a people are the ferengiis of this quadrant.  (and, ironically, that means "europeans" in arabic, doesn't it??)

mwishka (who lives here by chance of birth, and sometimes wishes she didn't - because it's sooooooo much work to retain one's sanity..... :'( )
Re: The US is now a threat to the rest of the worl
yunus
08/08/02 at 23:48:02
my two cents are lets stop complaing ad do something about if we dont like what is going on. From my perspective muslims that i know in my community complain to much about the US Israel Bush AIPAc and the Jewish lobby but dont do anything. Lets stop preaching to the choir and get oganized and speak out. Lets focous more attention on action lets educate others (non Muslims) on the multitudes of good points I see brother and sisters are making Change starts with you and me. Lets follow the sunnah of the prophet and make the best type jihad by speaking out against tyranny to their face not to each other when it seems we all agree. If we want change we have to work for we need to invest time money and a serious amount of effort but thats the only way things will get better. There are numerous different things you can do If you want ideas feel free to email me about somethings that you can do and how you can become more active and orginized
Re: The US is now a threat to the rest of the worl
ltcorpest2
08/09/02 at 13:03:49
electors", strangely selected by some weird process involving, again, the two parties, are the ones who choose the president.  the original role of the "electoral college" (hint hint) was to be sure that the uneducated masses weren't making such a critical decision, and their continued role is said to be so that the silly population of the US doesn't do something like waste our time requiring a run-off election (oh the cost!  what other concern is there in american politics??), or, perhaps more importantly, "accidentally" selecting the wrong president...


mwishka,  i think the electoral college was one of the biggest strokes of genius in the constitution.  one of the major benefits  (although it kinda hurts my state since I live in the most populous state) is that a President has to represent all parts of the country.  If it were just a straight majority places like north dakota, alaska, wyoming would be totally ignored and they would never see any campaigned or addressing of their issues.  The presidential candidates would just campaign in new york, california, texas, florida etc.  Also,  there is a much greater likelyhood of a runoff with an electoral college than a mere majority of voters,  the chances of a tie in the electoral college is much much greater then a tie in votes,  and then talk about recounts if there were a tie or even close vote, every ballot in every state would be contested ad infinitum.  while there was damge in the florida elections, it was minimal compared to a situation without the electoral college.
Re: The US is now a threat to the rest of the worl
muqaddar
08/09/02 at 14:22:31
[slm]

How many people are there in the USA who are not allowed to vote?

I was considering how black people are disproportionately convicted

for felonies.
Re: The US is now a threat to the rest of the worl
yunus
08/09/02 at 14:27:30
anyone can register to vote as long as they are a us citizen. in some states though if you are convicted of felony you cant vote. What happened in florida was wrong and about 40,000 people were denied the right to vote even thoughthey did not have criminal records. Right now the Naacp is sueing Cahter harris and the state of florida because of this
Re: The US is now a threat to the rest of the worl
muqaddar
08/09/02 at 14:43:36
[slm]

hold on I read the figures in the Mirror today and it says something
like 1.5 million afro-americans are denied the right to vote
and the conviction rate for black people for certain crimes like
drugs etc is more than 50% whilst for white people it's below 20 %
08/09/02 at 14:44:16
muqaddar
Re: The US is now a threat to the rest of the worl
mwishka
08/09/02 at 18:28:14
mike,

yep, what you mention about equally weighted voting by means of the electoral college is its one benefit.  but, as someone who has never and probably will never vote for a presidential candidate from one of those two parties, how is my vota being represented in the electoral college?  it just plain isn't, and as long as we keep ourselves stuck with two parties, a lot of people's votes will never represent their real choices, especially considering how many people resort to the lesser of TWO evils when they vote for president (and lots of other offices).  we've been thoroughly convinced as a population that we must vote for one of the two or we've wasted our vote.  as brother yunus said, if you do nothing, nothing changes.  

there are lots of ways to design a system that works better, actually represents people better, is efficient, effective, and has some real goals in the world, and for its own people.  i generally write to new people in congress with my suggestions for how to turn the whole place into something more democratic and representative.  i often don't even get a reply that they received my suggestions, much less hear from them any thoughtful comments, criticisms, or counter-suggestions.  they're all afraid of their "peers", as the american public often seems to be also, to speak out against the force of the majority, which rests blithely and secure in status quo.

and about the prisons:  i'll have to make up these figures because i can't remember, but they'll give a rough perspective:  it's said that if we continue incarcerating people at the current rate in the US,  by about 2010 about 50% of the entire population of the US will be in prison..... (not sure of the year or the percentage, but it's some time soon like that and some huge number like that.....)

mwishka
(who always hopes that the interesting times she lives in will be interesting because of increased beneficial knowledge rather than because of brutal turmoil...... :( )
08/09/02 at 18:30:11
mwishka
Re: The US is now a threat to the rest of the worl
ltcorpest2
08/09/02 at 18:30:56
actually, it is a federal law that you cannot vote if you have been convicted of a felony.  there are more felons that are white that cannot vote, but as a percentage of the population more blacks are convicted felons.  But actually , a higher percentage of whites that are charged with drug volations are convicted than that of blacks, although the percentage of of blacks are charged is higher.  hope that cleared that up!!!
Re: The US is now a threat to the rest of the worl
yunus
08/09/02 at 23:29:11
its not a federal that felons cant vote people incarcerated cant only in certain state are felons denied mostly om soutehern states.

Mwishka i agree that the electoral college is a bad idea i also disagree with a representaioal system and think thta there should be a porportional system instead like france. I am a registered green but i have serious problems with the party they are to secretarian and frim my dealings with local and state people I feel that they are a party that lacks any political teeth or true vision.

They refuse to back other thrid party non green canidates that share common ideas with them and in my opinion are rather stupid in pushing personal choice issues such as gay marriage legalization of all drugs abortion and ending the death penalty. This issues drive people away from the green party which is unfortuate since they have a lot of good things to say on corporations war and political reform.

I was talking to a local activists Jeff Beller whoo ran on the independence party tickect for sentate 2 years ago to try and run against mcnulty for albany area for the US congress . I n albany we have 800 registerd greens schenectady 500 rensellear 500 montogomry 200 saratoga about 100 in mcnultys disrtrict. Jeff has the money and resources to run and would be able to care his party the independence party about 1,000 people and if he got on the green ticket the greens and possibly the working families party about 1000 people. Jeff told me he wanted to run on a campaign on renweable energy specifically local bio mass, clean money clean eleections, end profiling of muslims arabs dentations loss of civil liberaties other things relatin to the war on terror, put an end to Us support for Israel put an end to occupation (he is also a jew which is a big move), no new war with iraq and corporate responsibilty. These are real issues which many people are concerend about the greens told me that since he was not a green they would not support or allow him on their tickect. Even though their is a chance of running a good campaign and getting our issues raised

We need to support a multilaterail party system but how is any thrid party going to be effective if they refuse to work with others. Also the green get to caught up in the big picture instead of focousing on a campaign for president and govenor which eats up on consideralbe amount of time and money the only way we can build more diverse politics is from the ground up why dont they run for school board, council people, mayoral etc. Political likeminded people need to work against and not against each other. If the greens contine to push stupid issues like legalization of marijuana and gay marriges they dont have a chance.

We as individuals if we dont like what the government is doing need to speak out NOW. Both the republicans and the democrats work for us and if they dont do what is right we need to tell them we wont support them and that we did not authorize their policys. Americans need to stop being so apatheitc towards governement they have abdicated their resposibilty and corporations and special interests groups have taking over people need to get involved and wake up register to vote speak out and protes these bad choices our officials are making NOW. Alexander Pope said it takes 1 man with principles to defeat 100 with positions we all need to be principled active people and things will change.
Allah knows best
Re: The US is now a threat to the rest of the worl
ltcorpest2
08/10/02 at 10:27:38
yep, what you mention about equally weighted voting by means of the electoral college is its one benefit.  but, as someone who has never and probably will never vote for a presidential candidate from one of those two parties, how is my vote being represented in the electoral college?  

your vote would be represented if in one state your candidate had majority of votes,  I have only voted one time for a major candidate, I usually vote libertatrian, unfortunatly they have never carried any states.  that is the way life goes, not enough people vote the way I do and not enough people vote the way you do.   Your vote obviously wouldn't count for much if it was a simple majority election either.  As far as prisons,  I agree that we incarcerate too many people, but many of these people lived under sharia, they would not have limbs or even be alive, so it wouldn't matter if they have the right to vote or not.
Re: The US is now a threat to the rest of the worl
jannah
08/10/02 at 10:51:36
[quote]As far as prisons,  I agree that we incarcerate too
                    many people, but many of these people lived under sharia, they would not have limbs or
                    even be alive, so it wouldn't matter if they have the right to vote or not. [/quote]

Under shariah the conditions of society are such that many people would not need or ever come close to committing crimes. i.e. no alcohol, no drugs alone --- how many crimes would we avoid.  as for losing a hand and all that.. if you steal.. you deal... a citizen living in an Islamic state knows the punishment, that would make lots of people think twice.. even so that's what a court is for... there are special circumstances for someone who is poor and steals just to eat and so on..

Re: The US is now a threat to the rest of the worl
humble_muslim
08/10/02 at 13:33:32
Salam,

Back to my original point about how ordinary Americans feel.  On cnn.com, there had a poll last night : "Is the threat posed by Iraq enough to justify American casualties ? " This poll is obviously one stpe ahead of simply asking whether Iraq should be attacked.  The results ? In a sample of 80,000 (a not insignifcant head count), the vote was evenly spilt between yes and no, with the yes's having a slight majority (51% to 49%).
This seems to back up my point that the (albeit slight) majority of Americans have no idea about the global repurcussions of an attack on Iraq by the USA, not to mention the repurcussions in the USA itself. And that is something REALLY scary for the rest of the world.

BTW I am not happy about having proven my point, but actauuly VERY disappointed : I really wish I was wrong.
NS


Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
A R C H I V E S

Individual posts do not necessarily reflect the views of Jannah.org, Islam, or all Muslims. All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective owners. Comments are owned by the poster and may not be used without consent of the author.
The rest © Jannah.Org