A R C H I V E S
Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| Muslims, please read this and help!! |
|---|
| Ameeraana |
| 09/15/02 at 12:51:57 |
| Please read these two article about Amina Lawal and please sign the letter to the Nigerian President to help save her life. As a Muslimah, I am deeply disturbed at this case and that the ruling against Amina Lawal is considered based on the rulings of Islam by the Regional Court in Katsina State: http://www.mertonai.org/amina/amina.asp http://www.wluml.org/english/new-archives/nigeria/amina-lawal-summary-0802.htm thank you Ameera |
| Re: Muslims, please read this and help!! |
|---|
| qurratulain |
| 09/21/02 at 11:24:53 |
| Assalamulaikom, This is my first post here. I was quite surprised to see this thread. This is the women who is going to be stoned to death for the Zinah(adultery) charges, and for me I think that Islamic Sharia is being implemented very rightly there. Who are we to challenge to laws made my Allah(Swt), harsh punishments for immoral acts. When people are not able to control their desires then such measures need to be taken. Yes I do feel for her that she is going to suffer so much pain now, but she should have thought of this before. May Allah(swt) guide us all (amin) |
| Re: Muslims, please read this and help!! |
|---|
| Sparrow |
| 09/21/02 at 13:47:59 |
| Does anyone have any reports of *men* being put to death for adultery? Curious, Sparrow (and weclome back all after vacation!) |
| Re: Muslims, please read this and help!! |
|---|
| Ameeraana |
| 09/21/02 at 18:12:58 |
| Did you all actually read the story? She was not married...and since they do not have any evidence of whom she had sex with (obviously because the man she claims she did it with was released as there was no evidence), there is no proof she did this with a married man!! Here is what the Qur'an says Suraht-An-Nour 24:2 The woman and the man guilty of illegal sexual intercourse, flog each of them with a hundred stripes. Let not pity withhold you in their case, in a punishment prescribed by Allâh, if you believe in Allâh and the Last Day. And let a party of the believers witness their punishment. (This punishment is for unmarried persons guilty of the above crime but if married persons commit it, the punishment is to stone them to death, according to Allâh's Law). If there is no evidence she had sex with an unmarried man, then she receives one hundred lashes. That is the punishment to give according to the Qur'an. [color=Blue]Again, here is the story: On Friday 22 March 2002 a Sharia court at Bakori in Katsina State sentenced Ms. Amina Lawal to death after she confessed to having had a child [u]while divorced[/u] . The man named as the father of her baby girl reportedly denied having sex with her and the charges against him were discontinued. Amina Lawal did not have a lawyer during her first trial, when the judgement was passed. But she filed an appeal against her sentence with the help of a lawyer hired by a Nigerian women's rights group. [/color] |
| Re: Muslims, please read this and help!! |
|---|
| Ameeraana |
| 09/21/02 at 19:46:54 |
| [color=Blue]here is even more facts: The latest case to gain international attention involves Amina Lawal, a 30 year old from Kurami village in Katsina State. Amina is a farmer's daughter and a mother of three who has been married twice since the age of 14. Following her second divorce in the latter part of 2000 Amina embarked on a relationship with a local man, Yahaya Mohammed, whom she says had promised to marry her if she consented to a physical relationship. She subsequently gave birth out of wedlock to her third child, a baby daughter named Wasila who was born in November 2001. After the birth of Wasila, Amina was taken to a lower Shari’ah court in Bakori, Katsina on 4th March 2002 by her fellow villagers.[/color][color=Red][u] According to the system of Shari'ah practiced in Katsina, a divorced woman is guilty of adultery (Zina) even if the man she is involved with is unmarried[/u][/color][color=Blue] ,and the mere fact that Amina had given birth satisfied the Shari'ah court Judge of her guilt. Consequently on 19th March 2002 Amina received the mandatory sentence of death by stoning. For his part Yahaya Mohammed admitted knowing Amina, but denied having had a physical relationship with her. Since Amina had no male witnesses to back up her assertions, Yahaya was acquitted due to insufficient evidence after swearing to his innocence on the Qur’an. [/color] |
| Re: Muslims, please read this and help!! |
|---|
| Traveler |
| 09/21/02 at 23:55:37 |
| [slm] Guys, you have to understand Ameerana is not arguing against the Islamic law regarding Adultery. It is the specific case of amina to which she believes is unjust and unislamic; Which on the other hand I do to. Shareahly( if thats a word) the whole case is flawed. So if anyone who thinks the same, should step up and stop this crime being carried out in the name of Islam. Traveler |
| Re: Muslims, please read this and help!! |
|---|
| bhaloo |
| 09/22/02 at 12:08:29 |
| [slm] [quote author=Sparrow link=board=ummah;num=1032108717;start=0#3 date=09/21/02 at 13:47:59]Does anyone have any reports of *men* being put to death for adultery? [/quote] There were 3 more people sentenced for death in that country in the same month that this woman received sentencing from what I read. One was a father who raped and killed his 9 year old daughter and the other 2 were a couple that committed adultery. It looks like the woman is not guilty of adultery as she wasn't married according to the article. But we haven't heard from the court itself so we don't know how they arrived at this ruling. Maybe she is in fact married? |
| Re: Muslims, please read this and help!! |
|---|
| yunus |
| 09/22/02 at 12:35:46 |
| the fact is that someone needs what 4 witness' to the act of penetration in order to convict someone of adultery many times when i hear of these stonings i doubt that they are following islamic law since i would think that it would be very hard to have this kind of proof |
| Re: Muslims, please read this and help!! |
|---|
| Ameeraana |
| 09/22/02 at 14:23:40 |
| [quote]According to the system of Shari'ah practiced in Katsina, a divorced woman is guilty of adultery (Zina) even if the man she is involved with is unmarried [/quote] :'( this is not Shariah law. This is a law indescriminately made up by a group of people who oppress a woman's guaranteed status in Islam. And surely there are other violations happening to women in this country that goes against Islam also, we just don't see/hear about it or choose not to see/hear about it. the sad fact is there are Islamic countries who do not grant all the rights and freedoms the Qur'an gives us women. Humans rights violations against women in these countries happen far too often and these stories are many of the ones that get out into the foreign eyes and ears and gives a horrible interpretation of Islam to these people. It would be wonderful if an annual meeting of Islamic governments could be established to get together to review true Shariah law and a system of review of how the governments carry the law out to put everyone on the right path. But yet this is also almost impossible as Islam has broken up into different sects. I also read somewhere in the Qur'an that Islam will break up into 72 different sects but only one is the right path... :'( :'( |
| Re: Muslims, please read this and help!! |
|---|
| Mohja |
| 09/22/02 at 16:45:05 |
| [quote] It would be wonderful if an annual meeting of Islamic governments could be established to get together to review true Shariah law and a system of review of how the governments carry the law out to put everyone on the right path. [/quote] that would be nice but i don't know if it's a realistic goal. goverments cannot be relied upon to enforce human rights unless there's a huge pressure from outside. what is more effective i think is educating the people themselves about their rights in islam because more often than not they are quite ignorant of them. |
| Re: Muslims, please read this and help!! |
|---|
| Sparrow |
| 09/22/02 at 20:36:52 |
| Guys, I'm confused...I thought any sex outside of marriage was punishable by death in Islam...but if I'm interpreting the posts correctly it only applies to those who step out on their mates? What is the punishment (if any) then, say for two teenagers who use poor judgement and get involved with each other sexually? Confused (as usual!) Sparrow |
| Re: Muslims, please read this and help!! |
|---|
| Kashif |
| 09/23/02 at 05:15:36 |
| assalaamu alaikum I think we should put some trust in the judgment of our brothers, the judges of the Islamic courts in the country *if we have no reason to be suspicious of their rulings in the first place.* Reports such as these are often placed under the microscope and blown way out of proportion by the Western media who want to highlight issues such as this to propagate the false claim that shari'a law is biased against women. The shari'ah isn't biased against women, but its application may be, although in this case, bhaloo refers to three men who have received the punishment of being stoned to death in the same month as this lady's case is going through court. Anyhow.... the key to this i think is this line here: "Amina is a farmer's daughter and a mother of three who has been married twice since the age of 14... " ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab said, when he was sitting on the minbar of the Messenger of Allaah sallallahu alaihi wa sallam: “Allaah sent Muhammad with the truth, and revealed to him the Book. One of the things that He revealed was the verse of stoning, which we have read and understood. The Messenger of Allaah carried out the punishment of stoning and we did so after him. I fear that as time goes by, people will say, ‘We do not find any mention of stoning in the Book of Allaah,’ so they will go astray by forsaking an obligation that was revealed by Allaah. In the Book of Allaah, stoning is the punishment deserved by any previously-married person, man or woman, who commits adultery, if proof is established, or pregnancy results, or he or she confesses.” Kashif Wa Salaam |
| NS |
| 09/23/02 at 05:16:52 |
| Kashif |
| Re: Muslims, please read this and help!! |
|---|
| yunus |
| 09/23/02 at 12:16:36 |
| zina (fornication) between unmarried people is punishable by 100 lashes i believe. Also i dont disagree that adultery is punishable by stoning but doesnt Quran say that you need 4 witness to the act or the person has to confess to the crime in order to carry out the sentence of stoning |
| Re: Muslims, please read this and help!! |
|---|
| Kashif |
| 09/23/02 at 13:53:06 |
| assalaamu alaikum C'mon brother... when an unmarried woman becomes pregnant outside of marriage, the need for 4 witnesses has kind of become void don't you think? Anyhow, as Umar said: "In the Book of Allaah, stoning is the punishment deserved by any previously-married person, man or woman, who commits adultery, if proof is established, or pregnancy results, or he or she confesses." Kashif Wa Salaam |
| NS |
| Re: Muslims, please read this and help!! |
|---|
| ltcorpest2 |
| 09/23/02 at 14:30:02 |
C'mon brother... when an unmarried woman becomes pregnant outside of marriage, the need for 4 witnesses has kind of become void don't you think? just a thought to ponder, Should Mary have been stoned then? |
| Re: Muslims, please read this and help!! |
|---|
| ltcorpest2 |
| 09/23/02 at 15:24:44 |
| if proof is established, or pregnancy results, or he or she confesses." I would have a problem with the "ors" in that statement. If any one of those can be used, then what happens in the case of rape? And how do you prove or disprove a rape charge? |
| Re: Muslims, please read this and help!! |
|---|
| stap |
| 09/23/02 at 16:05:03 |
| Please do not try to second guess the Shariah court's decision. They know the case and circumstances. We don't. And especially don't try quoting Quranic verses to prove that this case is "unjust" unless you are a qualified mujtahid which I think that none of us here are. This reminds me of when the Chechens executed captured Russian paratroopers ([url=http://www.intellnet.org/documents/300/080/381.htm]See case here[/url]) after Russia failed to hand over a Colonel who had raped and strangled to death an 18-year old Chechen girl. There was outcry from some *Muslims* who started quoting various verses to try and support their 'view'. The Chechens were lefting feeling very disappointed and let down. So the moral is, do not try and criticise something that you don't know the circumstances in FULL of. All the sources so far are from the Western media and I'm sure they are very objective and helpful. *end sarcasm*.... As for Mary Alai-hissalam. She gave a virgin birth by the divine will of Allah. There was no adultery involved. As for the "four witness" rule. There is no question about that since the woman *confessed*. Either way, please try not to start protest actions and such against something that we don't even fully know about. Jazakumullah-Khair and may Allah give us Tawfiq and understanding. Ameen. |
| Re: Muslims, please read this and help!! |
|---|
| Traveler |
| 09/23/02 at 16:28:25 |
| [slm] A few thoughts of my own on whatever has been said yet. It's true we are not in a position to question the judgement of the Nigerian shariah court. We don't know the details of the case. For the same reasons it is not possible for anyone to say the ruling is just and Islamic. Unless you were there in the court. But apparently on what we've heard through the western media there is enough to doubt the legality of the ruling. So the dilemma I think we face here is, what should I or we do in such a sitauation. Should we stay quite for our inability to know the whole truth of the matter or should I/we raise our voice in resentment to such a ruling based on the little information we have through indirect sources? ??? What do you guys think? |
| Re: Muslims, please read this and help!! |
|---|
| momineqbal |
| 09/24/02 at 02:18:22 |
| [slm], Well there seem to be too many scholars here! So far all such cases that have come to notice, as far as I know the individuals involved have all been poor people. How come I think? Allahu Alam |
| Re: Muslims, please read this and help!! |
|---|
| jannah |
| 09/24/02 at 09:30:39 |
| [slm] Stap is right... we have no right to be judge and jury when we haven't even sat a day in the courtroom listening to the evidence. So I think we should drop our "opinions" over this case. But this is a good opportunity to learn about Islamic laws. I think sophia or noera once did a paper on Islamic laws on rape/adultery? Can you give us a summary? |
| Re: Muslims, please read this and help!! |
|---|
| sofia |
| 09/24/02 at 12:06:05 |
| As-salaamu ‘alaikum wa rahmatullah, Wow, Jannah, good memory, masha'Allah. [Noer, did you do research on this, too?] (she’s the lawyer) :) Anyways, my paper sucked, now that I look back at it years later. I did learn a lot from it, though, alhamdulillah, since it forced me to research and request help from others like Imam Mukhtaar M. Some of Asifa Quraishi’s work is also good reference for those who are interested in this subject (her work was my major reference, since my paper had to do with Pakistan). Anyways, I’m not a scholar, I really debated writing, so please ask someone knowledgeable for the proper fatwah. This msg is not meant to substitute that. However (as you can see), this subject is just too much for me to repel, so here’s what little I’ve researched. First, rape and adultery are two separate crimes, which do not necessarily require the same # of witnesses in Islam, Allahu’Alim. Some scholars even equate rape with hiraaba (brigandry/highway robbery), since it is a right of every human to feel safe from lawlessness and transgression (whether state sanctioned, by particular groups or by individuals). Hiraaba also falls under the hudood, Allahu’Alim. A woman during the time of the Prophet (s) reported to him that she was raped on her way to prayer. She had no witnesses other than herself. She actually accused a few men who were not the rapists, who were seized and brought to the Prophet (s). Eventually, the actual rapist stood up to confess. The Prophet (s) told her and the wrongfully accused man to go, and then had the man who confessed stoned to death. [Abu Dawud, not sure of the authenticity]. Allahu’Alim. Secondly, hudood punishments are mainly meant as a deterrent to create a moral, just society. This type of punishment is prescribed in the Qur’aan (and other Books of revelation) for some of the worst crimes known to man (ex/ for murder, theft, adultery, brigandry, etc), and it is thus amongst the most severe type of punishment (btw, a society is not to kill or watch someone be killed. Only when a Muslim leader prescribes the hudood punishment, can anyone watch. Think about violence on tv/video games, even. And turn it off). That’s why the issue of witnesses is so huge in Islam. In cases of confession by a sane person, witnesses are no longer necessary. And in the case of wrongful accusations/testimony, the witnesses can also be punished, Allahu’Alim. There was another case during the time of Umar’s caliphate (I believe), in which a woman confessed to him of adultery. She knew it would require the hadd punishment. He was prompted by ‘Ali to ask her why she committed adultery, in case there was some extraordinary reason that would save her from the punishment. She explained that she was in need of food/drink and that a man (can’t recall who or what relation) told her he would give her the necessary provisions if she had intercourse with him. ‘Ali and ‘Umar rejoiced – not because of her situation (which was actually sad), but because it meant she would have her sentence reduced or even annulled (again, can’t recall), since she did not have much of a “choice.” Allahu’Alim. Neither the Prophet (s) nor his companions “enjoyed” inflicting this type of punishment, and actually advised some people who confessed to keep it to themselves and repent privately to Allah. An example that many know: a man confessed to the Prophet (s) of adultery, who then asked his neighbors and family if he was sane, in case he could avoid prescribing the hadd punishment. In another case, a woman confessed of adultery to the Prophet (s) and he turned his face. When she insisted for years, he brought about her punishment (after he advised her to give birth to her child and wean it for 2 yrs). This punishment was brought on only after the Prophet (s) initially ignored her request to have the hadd punishment inflicted on her and she insisted upon her confession (it is generally believed that if a person’s repentance is accepted by Allah, the punishment in this life will “void” the harder punishment in the hereafter. Allahu’Alim.). Lastly, according to most scholars, pregnancy as de facto proof of adultery is only accepted when there is no claim for rape (and other conditions are met). Otherwise, if there is no pregnancy, no confession, no claim for rape and someone accuses 2 people of adultery, the nearly impossible requirement of 4 sane, upright witnesses who saw the act (ie, lewd act, most likely in public, for which there are laws in the US, even) still stands for hudood cases (btw spying is haraam in Islam). If that evidence actually holds up, then both man and woman are punishable in a court of Islamic law. Allahu'Alim. None of this commentary is related to the article that prompted this thread, since I don’t have knowledge of it. Not to say that if there is wrong done by the government when prescribing the punishment, that we can’t protest it. Actually, Muslims are ordained to forbid evil and enjoin good (ie, we have to say something about it if we have evidence otherwise). So may Allah increase us all in knowledge and help our leaders make just decisions, particularly when it comes to the hudood. Allahu’Alim. May Allah forgive me for any mistakes. And again, ask your local shaikh for the correct fatwah and please correct me if I’m wrong, insha’Allah. |
| 09/24/02 at 12:53:08 |
| sofia |
| Re: Muslims, please read this and help!! |
|---|
| Dawn |
| 09/24/02 at 14:14:57 |
| This topic actually brings up another question. What about DNA testing? Clearly this was not a technology available during the Prophet's time, or he would have said something about it. But how does it fit into the "spirit of the law", so to speak? Have any scholars spoken to this issue? Certainly, in this case, it could help identify whether the man "accused" as being the father of the child is lying about his denial thereof. Peace, Dawn |
| NS |
| 09/24/02 at 14:18:14 |
| Dawn |
| Re: Muslims, please read this and help!! |
|---|
| NinthMuharram |
| 09/24/02 at 16:51:35 |
| [slm] On Dawn's question on DNA. I'm using my logic. I stress again, MY OWN logic. So , pls do not quote me anywhere but point to me if my understanding is wrong. I used to wonder about this too, to the extend of doubting my own Faith. Then, a brother said to me, when we were discussing a topic which has something to do with me questioning why a woman need to wait a certain period after she got divorce. I said to him with the latest technology we can always find out who the father of the kid is. He said to me, "Sister, Islam is not just for you. It is for everyone on this Earth. Be it Muslim or non Muslim, poor or rich. Often because we are living in a different situation, a better situation, we ended up assuming that everyone would have the same situation." So, everytime I came across with issues in my life with regard with my Faith. I would have to fight the urge of assuming and jumping into conclusion without looking at it 360 degree. Even then I know, my view would be limited. To this issue, my logical mind would conclude that sure DNA would assist investigation and the trial a lot. But, is it available everywhere in this world? In the small rural villages? In places where they've never ever even seen a syringe or heard of Internet? Forgive me if I've caused any more harm with my reply. Pls inform me if I've mistakenly understood anything. |
| 09/24/02 at 16:52:19 |
| NinthMuharram |
| Re: Muslims, please read this and help!! |
|---|
| jannah |
| 09/24/02 at 17:11:14 |
| [slm] I'm not sure why DNA testing is a problem here, it is a new technology, but surely it's just one more thing to look at in the evidence. |
| Re: Muslims, please read this and help!! |
|---|
| bhaloo |
| 09/24/02 at 21:14:07 |
| [slm] Jazak Allah khairen Sofia and Kashif, I learned something new. |
| Re: Muslims, please read this and help!! |
|---|
| Traveler |
| 09/25/02 at 04:35:40 |
| [slm] On the issue of four witnesses there is something I've heard that made some sense to me and I think it gives us a better view on subjects like crime and punishment. What I'm about to narrate is a reflection of a friend who is not a scholar but someone I regard to be an intelligent person. It's validity is subject to question. The "theory" goes like this... Since God is the Lord of mankind, He is the Only one who decides the punishment of a sin/crime and the only one to carry out that punishment. None has that right, unless given authority to do so. And as proof we find many verses in the Quran where Allah says to leave the sinners/disbelievers for a while for they will have to give an account of their actions on the day of Judgement. that day they will be recompensed for their good and evil deeds. But then why were punishments prescribed for certain deeds like adultery, theft, murder etc. and yet there are greater sins which have no punishment prescribed in this world; For instance, not worshipping God as the only God, which is in the sight of God the greatest sin of all has no punishment prescribed in this world. Well, according to this theory, the reason behind prescribing punishments for some sins in this world is because the ones which have their punishments prescribed are necessary for the existence of a functional society. If they are not checked they will create chaos and disorder to an extent it would make life impossible. The object is not to seek those sins/crimes and carry out their punishment rather if these sins/crimes are being carried out at a level where it's affecting the normal funtioning of a society these punishments act as deterrents. These punishments in no way do full justice. "Infinite justice" can only be done by the one who is most Just. And full justice will be done on the last day in our after life. This is one reason we come across many hadith were people are encouraged not to disclose the sins of yourself or of your brothers. This does not mean we refuse to either stop a person from continuing to commit a sin or to refuse to testify if our testimony in needed. As an evidence, If you recall the hadith where a man came to the Prophet proclaiming his sin and the prophet tried to ignore him. But only on repeated insistence of the sahabi did he (saw) address the case, which was adultry in his case. So now if we go back and look at the requirements for an accusation of adultery against someone we understand why we need four witnesses. If in a society people were able to produce four witnesses to the actual act of adultery then immorality and indecency has attained a level where it has become a threat to the normal functioning of a society. In such circumstances Society faces the danger of total disintegration and as a consequence total anarchy. And this is why such extreme hudd punishments are prescribed and are carried out in Public. As I said before, the objective is not to punish rather to stop the spread of indecency and lewdness. This is one reason why pregnency and DNA testing is not taken into account in the cases of adultery. I'd like to remind once more that this is just an opinion. I'm just expressing my views on the subject, that is all. |
| Re: Muslims, please read this and help!! |
|---|
| bhaloo |
| 09/25/02 at 07:56:57 |
| [slm] [quote] But then why were punishments prescribed for certain deeds like adultery, theft, murder etc. and yet there are greater sins which have no punishment prescribed in this world; For instance, not worshipping God as the only God, which is in the sight of God the greatest sin of all has no punishment prescribed in this world. [/quote] The only sin greater then murder or adultery is shirk. There is certainly punishment for the person that apostates. “Whoever changes his religion, execute him.” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 2794). What is meant by religion here is Islam (i.e., whoever changes from Islam to another religion). The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “It is not permissible to shed the blood of a Muslim who bears witness that there is no god except Allaah and that I am His Messenger, except in one of three cases: a soul for a soul (i.e., in the case of murder); a married man who commits adultery; and one who leaves his religion and splits form the jamaa’ah (main group of Muslims).” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 6878; Muslim, 1676) ;----------------------- As for the one who isn't a Muslim, we need to insha'Allah convey the message of Islam to them. We can't force people to become Muslim, remember there is no compulsion in religion. [quote] Well, according to this theory, the reason behind prescribing punishments for some sins in this world is because the ones which have their punishments prescribed are necessary for the existence of a functional society. If they are not checked they will create chaos and disorder to an extent it would make life impossible. The object is not to seek those sins/crimes and carry out their punishment rather if these sins/crimes are being carried out at a level where it's affecting the normal funtioning of a society these punishments act as deterrents. These punishments in no way do full justice. "Infinite justice" can only be done by the one who is most Just. And full justice will be done on the last day in our after life. [/quote] Al-Bukhaari (may Allaah have mercy on him) narrated in his Saheeh (3/143, no. 3679) with his isnaad that ‘Ubaadah ibn al-Saamit, one of those who was present at Badr with the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), said that one of those who had been present at al-‘Aqabah told him: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, with a group of his Sahaabah standing around him: “Come and give me your oath of allegiance, promising that you will not associate anything in worship with Allaah, or steal, or commit zinaa (illegal sexual activity), or kill your children, or utter slander intentionally forging falsehood (by wrongfully attributing illegitimate children to husbands) [cf 60:12], or disobey me with regard to anything good (ma’roof). Whoever among you fulfils this oath, his reward will be due from Allaah, and whoever commits any of these sins and is punished for it in this world, this will be an expiation for him. Whoever commits any of these sins and Allaah conceals it for him, then his case rests with Allaah – if He wills, He will punish him and if He wills, He will forgive him.” So they gave their oath of allegiance to him on that basis. Al-Haafiz said in al-Fath (1/6): “What we learn from this hadeeth is that the carrying out of the punishment is an expiation for the sin, even if the one on whom the hadd is carried out does not repent. This is the view of the majority. It was also said that he has to repent – this was stated by some of the Taabi’een.” The previous hadeeth was also narrated by al-Tirmidhi in his Sunan. After quoting it, he said: “Al-Shaafa’i said concerning this topic: I have not heard any better indication than this hadeeth to show that the hudood (punishments) are an expiation for the people on whom they are carried out. Al-Shaafa’i said: if a person commits a sin and Allaah conceals it for him, I prefer for him to keep it concealed and to repent, keeping the matter between himself and Allaah. Something similar was narrated from Abu Bakr and ‘Umar, that they commanded a man to conceal his sin.” (Sunan al-Tirmidhi, 1439). So there is no need for the person who commits a punishable sin to go to the Qaadi (judge) and confess and ask for the hadd to be carried out on him; rather, he is encouraged to keep it to himself and to repent, keeping the matter between himself and Allaah, may He be glorified, and to do lots of righteous deeds, for good deeds cancel out bad deeds, and the one who repents from sin is like one who did not sin at all. (from Sheikh Munajjid) |
| 09/25/02 at 09:15:58 |
| bhaloo |
| Re: Muslims, please read this and help!! |
|---|
| Traveler |
| 09/25/02 at 15:50:37 |
| [slm] Bhaloo, you'll have to excuse me for I didn't completely get the point you were trying to make. Your response to my first qoute is partly right. But the shirk I was referring to was not apostacy but shirk which is considered as minor shirk. For instance, grave worship(a major shirk yet considered to be minor) , belief in the power of charms and amulets. They are all shirk yet people are not to be punished by law. If you look at the punishment for apostasy with what I had said earlier you can understand why there is a severe punishment prescribed for it. First off, I'd like to point out the punishment is for those who had chosen Islam as their deen. The reason I'm pointing this out is because there are many people who are muslims becuase they were born as muslims. So when they once reach a mature mental age and chose not to be muslims they are not considered as apostates in the same way as others are. Then again this is just my understanding, I could be wrong. Anyways, apostasy in its former sense becomes a crime punishable by law for the same reason as mentioned in my previous post, namely to ensure safety and proper functioning of a society. Just imagine if a group of people accepted Islam which made them members of the society(Ummah). And since they have become a part, the rest of the society depends on the duties they perform appointed to them by Islam. Now imagine if this group or individual cancels his membership to the society by rejecting Islam. How intensely this effects on the rest of the society depends on the number of people involved. You can just imagine the chaos it would cause if it is a large group who have vital roles to play in a society. Therefore this is why, I think, it is considered a crime punishable by law to revoke your allegiance to the group/society. Once more I'd like to remind this is just an expression of my views on the subject. And your response to my second quote... I couldn't tell if you were arguing against it or for it. I agreed with whatever you said. |
| Re: Muslims, please read this and help!! |
|---|
| sofia |
| 09/25/02 at 16:21:52 |
| As-salaamu 'alaikum wa rahmatullah, Regarding the DNA thing, I have no idea, but there's a similar question asked at Islam Q/A. I can't speak for Shaikh Munajjid, but it seems that DNA test results may be used *in addition* to the evidence required of Islamic law, Allahu'Alim. However, it may or may not be used as the sole evidence or in place of the evidence called for in adultery (i.e., there's a reason for the req of evidences as layed out in Islam). Allahu'Alim. Again, hudood punishment is for societal good, not to point out everyone who has sinned. And I'm not speaking for rape cases, as I don't know (and it's a completely different crime), but it may be that DNA tests hold more ground there, if there is an accusation. Allahu'Alim, pls correct me if I'm wrong, insha'Allah. --------------------------------------------------------------- Question: I know that in the past if someone has committed adultery, they had to bring 4 witnesses . My question is can we prove that today by using latest scientific methods as the DNA test, instead of bringing 4 witnesses. Answer: Praise be to Allaah. According to Islamic sharee’ah, zinaa can only be proven by clear evidence, namely the testimony of four trustworthy and sound witnesses who saw it actually happen, or by confession of guilt, or by the woman becoming pregnant. It cannot be proven by DNA testing or by use of cameras and videos in place of the things mentioned above. And Allaah knows best. Islam Q&A Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid (www.islam-qa.com) |
| NS |
| 09/25/02 at 20:29:34 |
| sofia |
| Re: Muslims, please read this and help!! |
|---|
| Asim |
| 09+26/02 at 08:41:10 |
| Assalaamu alaikum, This is certainly an information discussion. I had been thinking for a while about the video/audio (and DNA) thing (especially when they are so ubiquitous nowadays). Jazakallah khayr sofia for posting Sh. Munajjid's fatwah. I was thinking along this line: if a video/tape exists *and* four witnesses have seen it, would that be sufficient? Or do they have to be there when the act happens? Allahu alam. Just thinking out loud... Wasalaam. |
| 09/26/02 at 08:44:07 |
| Asim |
| Re: Muslims, please read this and help!! |
|---|
| Dawn |
| 09/26/02 at 11:25:52 |
| I guess what I was thinking in this case was as follows -- purely hypothetically, as we have no evidence one way or the other. What if DNA evidence did implicate the guy who swore innocence in this case? Would this be adequate evidence that he had sworn falsely? (Of course, if the fellow knew that there was going to be a DNA exam done to begin with, he might not have pled innocent, but that is an exercise in the psychology of motivation, and a different topic entirely.) Peace, Dawn |
| Re: Muslims, please read this and help!! |
|---|
| Abu_Hamza |
| 09/27/02 at 16:09:32 |
| [slm] Wow, how did I miss this thread? Just a few comments insha Allah: Itcorpest: [quote]just a thought to ponder, Should Mary have been stoned then? [/quote] Yes she should have been, *if* Allah (awj) had not clarified the issue through the tongue of the infant baby in the cradle himself! (Read the Qur'an for further information) [quote]I would have a problem with the "ors" in that statement. If any one of those can be used, then what happens in the case of rape? And how do you prove or disprove a rape charge? [/quote] The statement, again, was this: " ... In the Book of Allaah, stoning is the punishment deserved by any previously-married person, man or woman, who commits adultery, if proof is established, or pregnancy results, or he or she confesses.” I don't think I need to elaborate further! Dawn: Your questions about DNA-testing are very valid, but out of our scope here on this board. These are very scholarly questions, which rest assured have been dealt with by the scholars everywhere including the West. The Fiqh Council had presented a ruling on this issue some time ago. I cannot remember what it was and I don't know where to find it online :( But I remember it was *very* convincing. Maybe someone in Albany can ask their imam? He's part of the Fiqh Council. Wassalamu alaikum wa rahmatullah |
| 09/27/02 at 16:12:54 |
| Abu_Hamza |
| Re: Muslims, please read this and help!! |
|---|
| jannah |
| 10/03/02 at 16:45:38 |
| Oprah is covering this story in-depth tomorrow.. If anyone watches it let us know how it went... |
| Re: Muslims, please read this and help!! |
|---|
| bismilla |
| 10/04/02 at 04:05:35 |
| [slm] [tt]bsm[/tt] [color=blue][url=http://www.islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=6752]Please provide your esteemed opinion of the Amina Lawal case (the Nigerian divorced woman who was sentenced to death by stoning for committing adultery). Was Shariah law correctly applied in the case? [/url][/color] [font=comic SANS ms][color=green]According to the Islamic law, Hadd is defined as a specific punishment for committing a specific crime which is the right of God and human beings. (Hidaaya vol.2 pg.506; Ilmiyyah) Islam propagates respecting life, wealth and honour. The Prophet Muhammad (may the peace and blessings be upon him) declared in his farewell pilgrimage, ‘Behold, Verily your blood, your wealth and your honour is sanctified like the sanctity of this day (the tenth of Dhul-Hijjah – last month of the lunar calendar when Muslims perform Hajj and sacrifice animals), this month (Dhul-Hijjah) and this city (Makkah).’ (Bukhari vol.1 pg.234; Qadeemi) All three are sanctified by a believer. The purpose of punishments is to deter criminals from committing crimes that will effect the safety of one’s life, wealth and honour. The punishment of cutting the hands for theft is a means of protecting one’s wealth. The punishment of lashing a person for false accusations is a means of protecting one’s integrity. Similarly, the punishment of stoning a married person to death for committing adultery is a means of protection from all the evils that emanate from the evil of adultery which leads to breaking of families, abortion, illegitimate children, etc. Each one of these evils have become an unbearable burden even to the first world countries. THE PUNISHMENT FOR ADULTERY IN ISLAM The punishment for adultery, for both males and females, has two categories: Adultery committed by an unmarried person or a married person. This distinction becomes necessary because the punishment varies for both. Punishment of adultery for an unmarried person is 100 strokes of lashes. (Qur’aan - Chapter 24 verse 2) Punishment of adultery for a married person is stoning to death, if he/she is; a) A free person (not a slave), b) Sane, c) Physically mature, d) Muslim, e) Married, f) Had intimacy with his spouse. (Hidaaya vol.2 pg.507; Ilmiyyah) This punishment was unanimously upheld by all the Islamic Jurists based on the order and practice by Prophet Muhammad (may peace be upon him). (Sahih Bukhari vol.2 pg.1002; Qadeemi) The crime must be proven beyond the shadow of doubt as the Prophet Muhammad (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam) is understood to have stated, ‘Hudood will fall off due to doubts.’ (Tirmidhi vol.1 pg.268; HM Saeed) The laws of evidence in Islamic law are strict. If the witnesses are not honourable as stipulated in Islamic law or there is any inconsistency in any one of the witnesses statements, the accused will not be convicted. In fact, the witnesses will be punished for making a false allegation. (Shaami vol.4 pg.8; HM Saeed). If the Qaadhi (presiding Muslim judge) is satisfied that the allegation is true and proven beyond the shadow of doubt will he issue the decree of punishment for adultery. We are unable to comment on Amina Lawal’s case as we are unaware of the facts surrounding her case. We cannot rely on the facts presented by the print and electronic media due to the inconsistencies contained in them. and Allah Ta'ala Knows Best [/color] Mufti Ebrahim Desai[/font] |
| Re: Muslims, please read this and help!! |
|---|
| qurratulain |
| 10/04/02 at 09:29:37 |
| Assalamulaikom, I thought I would be notified of any replies in this thread but now found out that have to click on a button in order to receive notifications, and me thinking all the while how come no is replying on this thread :-[ Well since the mufti has explained about it I think there remains no more doubt . Wasalaam :) |
| Re: Muslims, please read this and help!! |
|---|
| jannah |
| 10/04/02 at 10:08:19 |
| [slm] When you click on Notify of Replies, click on Yes and then an email is sent to you when there is a new post in this thread. You can also click on the "Notification" button up at the top menu to see which threads you have on notification and to deactivate them... |
| Re: Muslims, please read this and help!! |
|---|
| amatullah |
| 10/04/02 at 17:36:33 |
| [slm] Question As-Salaam `Alaykum, Is DNA used to proved the guilt of a man who has committed adultery? It is very evident when a woman has committed adultery when she has a child, however it can be even clearer to whom she committed adultery with by DNA testing. Is DNA testing used in Islamic Courts? Answer Wa`alykum As-Salaamu wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakaatuh. In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful. All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger. The DNA testing can be used in Islamic Courts as supportive evidence in the absence of four just witnesses. However, it cannot be the sole and only evidence to prove a huge crime like Zina which entails inflicting severe punishment on the criminal. The reason for not accepting DNA as a sole and complete evidence is that DNA testing cannot tell us whether the one who committed adultery did it willingly or unwillingly, be it the man or the woman. Allah Almighty knows best. from islamonline.org shaikh Sheikh Muhammad Iqbal Nadvi fatwa session on sept.8 |
| Re: Muslims, please read this and help!! |
|---|
| amatullah |
| 10/04/02 at 17:43:05 |
| [slm] same source but from aug.19 Dear Sheikh, what is the stance of Shar`iah on the new verdict issued by the Islamic court of appeal in Nigeria, concerning the case of a lady called Amina, accused of adultery and facing death by stoning? Still, the issue is triggering wide debate after the latest judgement by the court in Funtua, northern Nigeria, calling for stonning the lady after she finishes weaning her child. My second question: what is your opinion on the point of leaving the man untouched on the basis of no evidence (no four witnesses are available) Don't you see this as a cogent proof for the enemies of Islam to claim that Shari`ah is unjust to woman? Can't there be a way to include the man in the guilt, in order to achieve justice, especially we know that it's impossible to find 4 witnesses in such case, which means the woman will always be the victim? Name of Mufti Sheikh Faysal Mawlawi Content of Reply In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful. All thanks and praise are due to Allah and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger. Dear brother in Islam, thanks for forwarding your question to us, and we implore Almighty Allah to make our efforts come up to your expectations. As regards your question, first of all, we want to draw your attention to an important point: Shari`ah as a whole is justice. All its precepts indicate mercy, contrary to what the Westerners claim, brandishing Shari`ah as outdated and barbaric, forgetting the fact that Shari`ah is not a man-made legal system. It’s the law revealed by the Merciful Lord, the Lord of the Universe. That’s why we notice that in regulating people’s affairs, Shari`ah does not hunt for criminal acts in order to subject them to penalties. Rather, it has laid down certain conditions to be met before carrying out the punishment. Thus, we see that it orders that punishment should never be based on mere suspicion or insufficient proofs. Not only that, Shari`ah also emphasizes that, before carrying out the punishment, the conditions of the culprits must be taken into considerations, and the punishment must not transcend the bound of the accused. This is a sign of mercy with which Shari`ah is characterized. So the issue is not just seeking what may prove the crime; rather, a great caution must be displayed when it comes to carrying out a fixed penalty. Islam further gives its full weight behind all what may prove the innocence of the accused, as the Prophet, peace and blessing be upon him, did with the man who came to him confessing adultery. The Prophet, peace and blessing be upon him, said to the man “Perhaps you just touched her; maybe you kissed her; maybe you…etc”, in an attempt to give him the chance to recall his confession. Thus, the Prophet, peace and blessing be upon him, says, “Legal penalties should be warded off when there are suspicions.” This point is clarified in the following fatwa issued by Sheikh Faysal Mawlawi, deputy chairman of the European Council for Fatwa and Research: “As for your first question, the Shari`ah rulings concerning the adulteress can be delayed until the infant is weaned, to be able to continue life without any difficulty. The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, actually stayed the execution of the punishment on an adulteress until she gave birth and then again delayed it until she weaned her baby. As for the whom the woman accused of adultery but he denied and she could not bring four witnesses, the legal ruling is that he will get rid of the worldly punishment but this does not mean that he will escape the punishment on the Hereafter. It is up to the judiciary to decide and according to the evidence that indicate that he committed the crime, he will be subject to discretionary punishment (Ta`zeer) left for the judge to decide according to the conditions of each case. According to some scholars it may reach the level of the prescribed punishment. Therefore, the establishment of the crime and the punishment is subject to judicial discretion, not subject to mere accusation. This means that we should focus on the point of establishing justice. We need to know the significance of emphasizing on four witnesses before accusing the man of the crime. We need to ask: What if the woman in question, for any reason, accused another an innocent man, of being the one who committed adultery with her, without having any cogent proof on her side? Will justice be achieved by punishing the accused here for mere accusation without any evidence? The issue then is a matter of proving the crime beyond reasonable doubt. If it is proved, then the punishment must be implemented whether on the man or the woman. If the evidence is lacking, then the accused must be freed, regardless of whether he is a man or a woman. But the condition surrounding the crime of adultery makes it self-proved as regards the woman, by becoming pregnant and giving birth to a baby out of wedlock, i.e. illegitimate child. But as regards the man evidence to incriminate him is not somehow self-revealing; it must be shown and proved beyond reasonable doubt, in order to save people from injustice, for it’s easy for an adulteress to point an accusation finger to any man, without having any convincing proof. Therefore, the issue is connected with the conditions of proving the crime for the implementation of the punishment. It has nothing to do with the principle of equality between man and woman. The rule in Shari`ah and in all positive laws is that an accused person is innocent until he/she is proven guilty.” Allah Almighty knows best. * other fatwas that are very interesting and related to the topic (is pregnancy sole proof of zina, Islamic Criminal Justice: Is it Barbaric? , and similar case in recnet past) http://www.islamonline.org/completesearch/english/FatwaDisplay.asp?hFatwaID=60870 http://www.islamonline.org/completesearch/english/FatwaDisplay.asp?hFatwaID=67176 http://www.islamonline.org/completesearch/english/FatwaDisplay.asp?hFatwaID=79895 |
| Re: Muslims, please read this and help!! |
|---|
| Traveler |
| 10/05/02 at 16:59:28 |
| [slm] Did anybody watch oprah's show about Amina? I could only catch a few minutes in the begining of the show. The part where Oprah informs us that Nigerians are barbarians and she-oprah- and all those who wish to be her are civilized. And it is the duty of every civilized person to civilize the barbarians. It seems the "white man's burden" now lies on the shoulders of Oprah. If any of you, who watched the whole show fill me in on the important details. How does a civilized person civilize a barbarian? Eagerly waiting for a reply. Traveler |
| Re: Muslims, please read this and help!! |
|---|
| qurratulain |
| 10/06/02 at 04:14:03 |
| [quote author=jannah link=board=ummah;num=1032108717;start=30#35 date=10/04/02 at 10:08:19][slm] When you click on Notify of Replies, click on Yes and then an email is sent to you when there is a new post in this thread. You can also click on the "Notification" button up at the top menu to see which threads you have on notification and to deactivate them... [/quote] Yes jazakAllah khairun I kinda figured that out :) |
| Re: Muslims, please read this and help!! |
|---|
| AyeshaZ |
| 10/06/02 at 07:51:06 |
| [quote author=Traveler link=board=ummah;num=1032108717;start=30#38 date=10/05/02 at 16:59:28] [slm] Did anybody watch oprah's show about Amina? I could only catch a few minutes in the begining of the show. The part where Oprah informs us that Nigerians are barbarians and she-oprah- and all those who wish to be her are civilized. And it is the duty of every civilized person to civilize the barbarians. It seems the "white man's burden" now lies on the shoulders of Oprah. If any of you, who watched the whole show fill me in on the important details. How does a civilized person civilize a barbarian? Eagerly waiting for a reply. Traveler [/quote] Oh noo i missed it :( My sister saw a lil bit and she didn't like what she saw, if anyone else watched the whole thing, please let us know!! JazakumAllahu khair |
| Re: Muslims, please read this and help!! |
|---|
| Ruqayyah |
| 10/17/02 at 09:01:13 |
| [slm] I did see the show on Oprah, here is a link to her site covering this topic: [url]http://www.oprah.com/tows/pastshows/tows_2002/tows_past_20021004_b.jhtml[/url] I honestly am not sure what i think about what i saw. The professor, Akbar Ahmed who had been on there "Islam 101" show was also on and he tried to explain what was going on, but came off as being apologetic in my opinion and didn't really directly answer the questions posed to him. Although I think he did do a good job of trying to remind people that Islam is full of compassion and does not consist solely of "harsh" laws. and of course we all got an email today about this whole issue asking people to email amnesty international on behalf of this woman, and i know people are going to be asking my opinion on this issue. So what do i say? i think a couple people had quoted this: [quote]In the Book of Allaah, stoning is the punishment deserved by any previously-married person, man or woman, who commits adultery, if proof is established, or pregnancy results, or he or she confesses.” [/quote] By "previously-married person" does that mean one has been married at least once before and still married to that same person OR does it mean one has been married once before and had gotten a divorce/widowed/etc. ? Also, I *think* this was the same show that showed all the atrocities that are being done to muslim women in pakistan. They showed a Pakistani woman who was educated at Columbia University and returned to Pakistan to live who went and interviewed all these poor women who were the victims of abuse by their husband. :'( She did this after her husband was killed when he, the "tribal chief" stepped in to help a young girl who had run away from her home. It's really sad to think that these women are being denied the rights that are entitled to them and they don't even know it. :( If anyone else saw this show, I'd really like to hear your thoughts! [wlm] Ruqayyah |
| Re: Muslims, please read this and help!! |
|---|
| Muneerah134 |
| 10/17/02 at 17:14:44 |
| [quote author=Ruqayyah link=board=ummah;num=1032108717;start=30#41 date=10/17/02 at 09:01:13] [slm] By "previously-married person" does that mean one has been married at least once before and still married to that same person OR does it mean one has been married once before and had gotten a divorce/widowed/etc. ? [/quote] [slm] It means anyone who has ever been married from what I was told by three of my teachers, two with degrees in shar'iah. One (a woman) said also, this part of law is difficult to explain to folks who think that adultery is not destructive to society and family -- and that characterizes our current mores and social thought. (They also don't understand directives directly from God.) and Alllahualim :-) Muneerah [] |
| Re: Muslims, please read this and help!! |
|---|
| jannah |
| 10/17/02 at 18:05:45 |
| [slm] Here's a good essay on the subject: Lashing, stoning, mutilating: Islamic law is barbaric and outdated. Defend the case of Islam. http://www.jannah.org/cgi-bin/morearticles/headlines.pl?4 |
Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board |