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Peer Pressure
Kathy
10/06/02 at 09:50:37
[slm] Last night I was at a Masjid dinner. I would say that 95% of the women and teenagers eyebrows were shaped. I also noiced that most were wearing heavy make-up. It was hard, very hard for me to stop plucking & shaping and wearing makeup to this degree. I wonder... is it peer pressure or another reason? Thoughts please. [i] and feel free to personal message me if you want your post to be anon, or go the anon route if you are more comfortable.[/i]

Re: Peer Pressure
UmmWafi
10/06/02 at 10:07:33
[slm] Kathy First time I saw your face was when Barr showed me the newspaper coverage of your meeting (remember ?).  Before I saw that pic, I thought u are a beautiful person, inside and outside.  After I saw the pic, I still think u are a beautiful person, inside and outside.  Inside u are beautiful for what u are and outside u are beautiful because u are careful to preserve the sanctity of what Allah has given u :) I never felt the difficulty in giving up make-up, well..I have never shaped my eyebrows.  I guess because despite the fact that I know physically I am not an attractive person, I am so very grateful to Allah for giving me what He has that I want people to see me as how He Created me, Alhamdulillah. Sometimes though its nice to browse the make-up section of the mall and be entranced by the colourrs and I am fanatical about perfumes.  Still..I am comfortable with my face uncaked :) Wallahualam bissawab

Re: Peer Pressure
Maliha
10/06/02 at 14:42:05
[slm] I am confused. When I was getting married, I went through mad family pressure to try and get me to pluck me eyebrows. I decided to go ask our imam about it. He showed me a book (which i will borrow again and type up their explanation), and in the book there was various opinions. One of the opinions was if you are doing it for your husband then it was okay. The imam said, his position before was, based on the hadith, was that it was haram. Yet after he read this book, he agrees with the opinion that if you are doing it for your husband then it is okay. I got me eyebrows plucked for my wedding, and i actually liked it :( honestly  i thought it was pretty  :'( I am now officially confused ::) I agree though, the whole deal is lotsa peer pressure. When I was first saying no to getting me eyebrows plucked, it was like I said something blasphemous. I had aunties calling from canada etc. asking "why would i do such a thing?" At the Masjid, since I haven't plucked me eyebrows in a while, even the little girls ask me why I am not getting them done. And this one lady who does eyebrows told me "it is Cleanliness!!!!". I was like ??? I don't like make up anywayz, so that wasn't a big deal. I like eyeliner though. Sometimes just at home with me hubby i put on lipstick...but that's pretty much it. Maliha :-) [wlm]

Re: Peer Pressure
BUSHRA
10/07/02 at 08:04:02
[slm], Interesting topic. :) I think a lot depend on peer pressure, to be honest (may ALLAH forgive me ) , I didn'nt start hijab until I had two kids and it was hard adjusting to it at first especially on weddings or on eid when almost everyone I knew would be glammed up. Just recently I went to a wedding and I saw everyone madeup and even though I had my hijab on I still put makeup on because otherwise I would have felt too frumpy plus I did not want to go through the evening being asked , "what's wrong with you?" :( Regarding eyebrows , I 've been doing them for a long time and personally I feel once you get started , it is hard to stop, its like an addiction. I have gone through my "MR. SPOCK"  ;)phase where I tweezed them so finely that I started to resemble a vulcan :o . I gave up shaping eyebrows for a year,about two years ago, but then someone (from my family) visited me and remarked on how unkempt my appearance was and so I got hooked on again , but I am more concious now of not over tweezing them and shaping them to a minimum , but it is very hard to give these habits up especially if one comes from a family where an obscene amount of importance is given to one's appearance ::). However , in the end it all comes down to my vanity and me constantly giving into my nafs :(. (oops! I've revealed too much about myself today :o, oh well ::).) Bushra :-)

Re: Peer Pressure
Kathy
10/07/02 at 08:17:45
[quote author=BUSHRA link=board=sis;num=1033912237;start=0#3 date=10/07/02 at 08:04:02] Regarding eyebrows , I 've been doing them for a long time and personally I feel once you get started , it is hard to stop, its like an addiction. [/quote] Yeah, this addiction, is what I am getting to. I am thinking there is some truth to this. Do any other women feel the addicting need to pluck? Let's not start a debate about eyebrow shaping, you can check the local fatwa sites, or do a search in this section. I have heard differenting scholors opinions about the hair between the 2 brows, some saying it is ok to pluck those. Ummm Wafi I wish you were living near me! All women could stand to hear those words more often!..[i]ps: I bribed the photographer to take off a couple pounds and wrinkles![/i] Maliha- can you get ahold of the info?
10/07/02 at 08:19:09
Kathy

Re: Peer Pressure
nabeela
10/07/02 at 14:54:45
asalaamu alaykum, For myself i wouldn't say it wasn't peer pressure.  when i was in high school sometime, one of my older friends said i looked like a teddy bear and did my eyebrows for me, it didn't look great to me so i didn't bother doing them again, except for the middle cause well i wanted two eyebrows and not one.  and then i happened to get electrolosis because my mom, basically saying i'm way too hairy and something has to be done.  and the lady didn't exactly shape them, but rather cleaned them up.  removed the middle part and the lower part of the brow where it was just a mess.  (at this time i had no idea that this might not be allowed. )   so basically, if i had done exactly the same to myself, i don't think i would be able to go back because it made such a big difference, mostly to myself (no one else really commented on it), it allowed my features to come out and not be hidden.  so basically i guess what this long thing i just wrote is trying to say is, for some i guess its peer pressure, but for others its just we've seen the potential of what we can look like and don't want to go back.  (i actually can't go back, its permanent, perhaps a blessing from allah since i didn't know it was wrong and my face was just way too messy.)  who knows.   so yes i'd say its an addiction.
10/07/02 at 14:56:10
nabeela

Re: Peer Pressure
Raindrops
10/07/02 at 15:30:40
[slm]  Yes I do believe that's it's an addiction....... once you start doing it if you leave it even for a little while the face starts to look so untidy ::)....     I've also noticed another thing, once we start plucking the hair it tends to spread outside the normal area as well forcing us to do something about it......I guess it's similar to the fact that if people insist on doing wrong then they simply can't live without it (sort of a punishment  :( )...  I say this because after I stopped I noticed that now I have hair on my forehead which was not there before and now I have to pluck it... :(...  But still I try to avoid it as much as I can......                                              :-[

Re: Peer Pressure
Barraa
10/08/02 at 18:00:36
[slm] Astaghfirallah, The majority (85 out of 100) wear make-up, pluck and shape their eyebrows and wreck themselves) Walahi, verily those women who pluck and shape their eye brows and wear makeup are 100% uglier than how they look truly ya akhwati al-muslimat. think about you deen, isn't a shelter, face, friends, deeds, and light enough for your life? i guarantee you that if you sit and memorize and read quran and remember allah everywhere you are and follow the prophets of allah your face my sisters and brothers will be 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 times more beautiful then how you look now. And never carry a black face anywhere, clear your face with wudhu five times a day and hold fast upon your prayers. and make hajj if you could afford goiing to mecca. this is not just my opinion Sister kathy but if you are a muslimah, i promise you even though i've never seen you you are much prettier then those women who try to attract men and look better than their muslim sisters. you know why women today wear make up out side and try to make other women jealous, because they know that the muslimat look beautiful with their light so they cover up (or try to cover up) their black faces. Walahi I saw girls older than me and young than me by a little or a lot wear the most sickest clothes here in Canada. 5-6 years old wearing a bikini to the masjid with leather pants that don't even leave a corner or a space to leave the skin a bit looser. what kind of parents teach their children this. Boys, 5 years old ok 5 years old! asking a 7 year old girl out for a date! Astaghfir-Allah, Alluhma ighafr lil mu'mineen wal muminat, alhuma inak 3afuwun tuhib al afwa fa3foow 3ana. look at your ummah and weep women and men weep! weep and cry aloud for forgiveness from allah!

Re: Peer Pressure
theOriginal
10/08/02 at 19:11:37
[slm] My thoughts:  A social pressure, surely.  Not necessarily from peers.   I would elaborate, but I like to remain evasive. Wasalaam. SF.

Re: Peer Pressure
sofia
10/09/02 at 08:58:14
As-salaamu 'alaikum wa rahmatullah There's also the (good) social pressure to *not* wear make-up or any other questionable or straight-out haraam practice (that's the best "peer pressure" there is!). Hard to find "peers" like that, but trust me, they're out there! So may Allah surround us with those who will "pressure" us into doing good, aameen. Those who wear the hijaab/khimaar (as I'm sure most of u can testify to) for the intentions to please Allah really do have a nur that can't be replicated by any amount of make-up. May Allah also help us purify our intentions, aameen.
NS

Re: Peer Pressure
Red
10/09/02 at 10:26:59
[slm], hope everyone is doing good inshallah....  :) i guess its a real mixture of things. you see everyone else is doing it, and you think well their real pretty, maybe it would do the same for me  :). Honestly, thats the way i feel.  i don't wear makeup, nail polish, or do anything with my eyebrows, but seeing other people do it, you get the feeling maybe thats the way to get myself to look more better looking.  Its real tough, i don't like makeup and sort of thing, but sometimes i wonder if it will do anything to improve my apperance... But, then i always  remember that Allah sub wah tula thinks i am beautiful as long I strive to be a good muslim. just my 2 cents... :-* wasalam, red

Re: Peer Pressure
Dawn
10/09/02 at 15:38:00
[quote author=Kathy link=board=sis;num=1033912237;start=0#0 date=10/06/02 at 09:50:37] I wonder... is it peer pressure or another reason? [/quote] I think it depends on what you call peer pressure.  Certainly the societal norm in which they are operating present the wearing of makeup and the shaping of eyebrows as beautifying techniques.  And when people are bombarded with such influences nearly 24-7, the vast majority do tend to internalize them.  So, there is the peer pressure which comes from society as a whole, and there is the peer pressure which comes from one's circle of friends, and doing what it takes to fit in and be accepted by that circle, regardless of how that circle may or may not fit with the rest of society.  So, peer pressure at a both a societal and local level seem to be in force, here.   In addition, I think some people are just more "prone" or "susceptible", if you will, to its effects.  Certainly the teenage years are notorious for feeling the effects of peer pressure.  But some people seem to be much more sensitive to it than others.  Personally, I am one of those folks who doesn't particularly care what the beauty standards are.  Even as a teen, I wore makeup probably only half the time.  I just couldn't be bothered.  My sister, on the other hand, who was raised in pretty much the same conditions (same society, same neighborhood, same school, same family of origin), wears makeup every day.  It must be said, however, that she does it because she feels that it is sort of a pre-requisite for looking presentable, not because she is trying to be beautiful or attract attention or something similar.  (And she can't understand how I can stand to go out in public so "sloppily" attired -- i.e., without makeup.::))  Some people just have different standards, I guess.  And that could also account for some of the women's "facial attire".  Just some more thoughts on the issue. Peace, Dawn

Re: Peer Pressure
Barraa
10/10/02 at 16:52:02
it is haram to remove any hair on you face, male/female EXCEPT the moustache. hadith sahih

Re: Peer Pressure
Kathy
10/10/02 at 21:22:21
[slm] Barraa, we have discussed this before. Scholars have different opinions regarding removal of hair that does not normally grow in certain spots of a woman's face.  Like between the brows and facial hair. Check with Islam Q&A and you will see this is true. Since this message board is not a fatwa site I will IM you with the proofs. Again... let all of us be real careful saying something is haraam....
10/10/02 at 21:33:49
Kathy

Re: Peer Pressure
bhaloo
10/13/02 at 03:48:28
[slm] The understanding I have about removing hair is the one expressed here by the Islam-qa.com site.   Also someone mentioned (perhaps in another thread) that they heard some scholar say it was permissible to pluck the eyebrows.  This opinion I have never heard of, and would like to see the daleel for this, as this would be the first time I have heard of such an opinion. Question: I know that plucking the eyebrows is haram and removing facial hair is also but that we can remove hair above the lip and in between the eyebrows. What about the hair that comes between the hair line and the eyebrows down to the eyebrow?. Answer: Praise be to Allaah.   Firstly: With regard to removing hair or not removing it, the scholars divide hair into three categories: 1 – Hair which we are commanded to remove or shorten. This is known as Sunan al-Fitrah, such as removing the pubic hairs, trimming the moustache and plucking the armpit hairs. That also includes shaving or cutting the hair of the head during Hajj or ‘Umrah. The evidence for that is the hadeeth of ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) who said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Ten (actions) are part of the fitrah [natural inclinations of man]: trimming the moustache, letting the beard grow, using the siwaak (tooth-stick), rinsing the nose with water, clipping the nails, washing the finger joints, plucking the armpit hairs, shaving the pubes and washing oneself with water after relieving oneself.” Zakariyya said: Mus’ab said: And I forgot the tenth but it may have been rinsing the mouth with water.   Narrated by Muslim, 261 2 – Hair which we are forbidden to remove, which includes the eyebrows. The action of removing the hair of the eyebrows is called al-namas. It is also forbidden to remove the hair of the beard. The evidence for that is the hadeeth of ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Mas’ood (may Allaah be pleased with him) who said: I heard the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say: “Allaah has cursed the woman who does tattoos and the one who has them done, the woman who plucks eyebrows (al-naamisah) and the one who has it done (al-mutanammisah), and the one who files her teeth for the purpose of beauty, altering the creation of Allaah.” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 5931; Muslim, 2125) And it was narrated that ‘Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Umar said: I heard the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say: “Be different from the mushrikeen: let your beards grow and trim your moustaches.” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 5892; Muslim, 259) al-Nawawi (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: The naamisah is the woman who removes hair from the face and the mutanammisah is the one who asks to have that done. This action is haraam, unless a woman develops a beard or moustache, in which case it is not haraam to remove it, rather that is mustahabb in our view. Sharh al-Nawawi li Saheeh Muslim, 14/106 3 – Hair concerning which the texts are silent and do not say whether it is to be removed or left as it is, such as hair on the legs, hands, cheeks or forehead. There is some difference of scholarly opinion concerning this.   Some said that it is not permissible to remove it, because removing it implies changing the creation of Allaah, as Allaah tells us that the Shaytaan said: “ ‘and indeed I will order them to change the nature created by Allaah’”[al-Nisa’ 4:119 – interpretation of the meaning] Some said that this is one of the things concerning which nothing was said, so the ruling is that it is allowed. It is permissible to leave it or to remove it, because whatever is not mentioned in the Qur’aan or Sunnah is permissible. This was the view favoured by the scholars of the Standing Committee and by Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen. See Fataawa al-Mar’ah al-Muslimah, 3/879 It says in Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa’imah: (a)     There is no sin on a woman if she removes hair on her upper lip, thighs, calves and arms. This is not part of the tanammus (plucking) that is forbidden. (Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa’imah, 5/194, 195) (b)    The Committee was asked: What is the Islamic ruling on plucking the hair between the eyebrows? They replied: It is permissible to pluck it, because it is not part of the eyebrows. (Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa’imah, 5/197) The Standing Committee was asked: What is the ruling on a woman removing hair from her body? They replied: It is permissible for her to do that, apart from the hair of the eyebrows and head. It is not permissible for her to remove the hair of her head or to remove any part of the eyebrows, whether by shaving or any other means. Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa’imah, 5/194 We should comment on the questioner’s words “I know that plucking the eyebrows is haraam and removing facial hair is also.” As for plucking the eyebrows, this is haraam and is a major sin, because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) cursed those who do it. But as for removing facial hair, there is a difference of opinion among the scholars as to whether it is permissible to remove it. This is based on their various understandings of the word al-namas. Some scholars said that al-namas means removing any facial hair, and they did not limit it to the eyebrows. Others were of the view that al-namas refers to removing the hair of the eyebrows only. This was the view favoured by the Standing Committee as is clear from the fatwas quoted above. It says in Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa’imah: Al-namas means plucking the hair of the eyebrows, which is not permissible because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) cursed the woman who plucks eyebrows (al-naamisah) and the one who has it done (al-mutanammisah). Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa’imah, 5/195 And Allaah knows best.

Re: Peer Pressure
eleanor
10/13/02 at 06:56:27
[quote author=Kathy link=board=sis;num=1033912237;start=0#4 date=10/07/02 at 08:17:45] Let's not start a debate about eyebrow shaping, you can check the local fatwa sites, or do a search in this section* I have heard differenting scholors opinions about the hair between the 2 brows, some saying it is ok to pluck those. [/quote] Just to repeat what Kathy said earlier... we have had this discussion before and I think the focus of this thread is to find out if women feel pressured by others to pluck their eyebrows; if they feel uncomfortable if they [i]don't[/i] pluck their eyebrows; or are they comfortable with their eyegbrows the way they are and no woman or group of women is going to make them pluck them... I think personal experiences were required really which is why Kathy said you could IM her if you didn't feel comfortable posting publicly. Allahu Ahlam.

Re: Peer Pressure
Barraa
10/13/02 at 12:27:32
I'LL get you my back up sister kathy i have to go now

Re: Peer Pressure
Abu_Hamza
10/13/02 at 19:47:20
[slm] [quote author=Barraa link=board=sis;num=1033912237;start=0#12 date=10/10/02 at 16:52:02]it is haram to remove any hair on you face, male/female EXCEPT the moustache. hadith sahih[/quote] La hawla wala quwwta illa billah!  Where is this "hadith" found please?? Reminder to the brothers and sisters of the authentic hadith of Rasulullah [saw] found in the Sahih of Imam Bukhari in which he warned the people by saying: "Whoever attributes to me words that I did not say, let him take his place in Hell". Be careful people.  Be careful.

Peer Pressure
princess
10/14/02 at 16:24:14
as'salaamualikum ;D i'm never down with this peer pressure business ::) nor am i really down with make up :::blah::: i barely have any eyebrows to begin with, so alhamdulillah, the plucking / not plucking was never a problem for me ;) this weekend though..i happen to wear eye liner :o this girl was like, "oh, the eye liner looks nice.." :( then this other girl started talking about how she "always" has to wear eye liner, or ppl think she's ill or something ::) whatever..it's too much maintenance..:P
10/14/02 at 16:24:52
princess

Re: Peer Pressure
Barraa
10/16/02 at 15:58:27
[quote author=Abu_Hamza link=board=sis;num=1033912237;start=15#17 date=10/13/02 at 19:47:20][slm] La hawla wala quwwta illa billah!  Where is this "hadith" found please?? Reminder to the brothers and sisters of the authentic hadith of Rasulullah [saw] found in the Sahih of Imam Bukhari in which he warned the people by saying: "Whoever attributes to me words that I did not say, let him take his place in Hell". Be careful people.  Be careful.[/quote] [slm] Abu Hamzah I did not say not even half a word without any proof. Allah has cursed those women who practise tattooing and those who get themselves tattooed, and those who remove their face hairs, and those who create a space between their teeth artificially to look beautiful, and such women as change the features created by Allah. Why then should I not curse those whom the Prophet has cursed? And that is in Allah's Book, i.e. His Saying: "And whatsoever the Messenger (Muhammad ) gives you, take it, and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain (from it), and fear Allah." (59.7)

Re: Peer Pressure
Fatimah
10/16/02 at 17:38:40
salam alaikum, :) Sis barraa, I think abu hamzah took your statement of: [quote]it is haram to remove any hair on you face, male/female EXCEPT the moustache. hadith sahih[/quote] as a acual hadith, since you ended your statement with 'hadith sahih'. :) So, yes, there is no hadith with those words and I think that is why he replied the way he did. But what I think you ment by your statement is that men and women cannot remove facial hair except the moustache and this can be supported by a hadith sahih. Atleast thats how I understood all this. :) Anyways, I dont think anyone is discussing if its halal or not. I think they were just discussing WHY women do it or want to do it. :) Me, I love shaped eyebrows. To me it makes the face look very nice. But I dont do it because I believe it is haram. Take care all.  8)
10/16/02 at 17:40:31
Fatimah

Re: Peer Pressure
Barraa
10/18/02 at 17:31:26
Sister I am sure you are right but i want you all to know that my statement wasn' a hadith. it was the prophet that said leave you beard as it is and trim you moustaches for men. and i heard a fatawa by an (unknown) scholar that it is ok for a woman to remove hair from her moustache because allah said that allah cursed the women who resemble men.(and also the other way around) this hadith i heard is sahih too. and please abu hamzah tell me what you really meant so i could specificly tell you my problem or meaning. if i am wrong please notify me (privately)

Re: Peer Pressure
Ghetto_Hijabi
10/18/02 at 19:07:43
[slm] :) I never shaped my eyebrows...at first it was just because I didn't have time to go and get them waxed, threaded...watever have you....but then I learned that it was "haram"...(depending on which scholar's opinion you believe)...so they still remain "au natural"   I do believe it does have to do with peer pressure/family pressure/society pressure.  Look around us...this world revolves around "beautiful men and women" who have cheekbones sticking out far and wide...who are thin..on the verge of an eating disorder...wearing skin tight clothing that they have to be poured into......society/the media have programmed us to look/dress a certain way....appearance is everything to these people... I think that maybe...(not sure....) people who do shape their eyebrows are afraid of the reaction they'll get from society if they don't conform and do what "everyone's doing..."   Alhamdulilah...I haven't been shunned by society because I don't shape my eyebrows or observe hijab....it has just made people more aware of my identity, my personality... okie..enuff of my two sense  :-* (...if i offended anyone...sowwy )

Re: Peer Pressure
jannah
10/19/02 at 02:02:51
This topic is closed... see thread "Nemas".
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