A R C H I V E S
Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| Friends that date and drink. |
|---|
| bhaloo |
| 11/01/02 at 02:01:53 |
| [slm] I saw something that theOriginal said that caught my attention, because I had a similiar discussion with a friend and we were disagreeing on the issue, so I thought I would ask what you guys thought. 1). What if you have some friends and maybe a few years later find out that they drink, date, fornicate, etc and they are trying to get help now. but didn't know they did all these haraam things. How would you handle this situation? 2). Does your relationship with them change? 3). Do you think these people have anything to offer that can help with your imaan? 4). Do you think its selfish to surround yourself with only good people and not pay attention to the people struggling in this deen? If possible give examples from your own situation. |
| Re: Friends that date and drink. |
|---|
| gift |
| 11/01/02 at 04:43:48 |
| [slm] Hmmm interesting... [quote author=bhaloo link=board=madrasa;num=1036134113;start=0#0 date=11/01/02 at 02:01:53] 1). What if you have some friends and maybe a few years later find out that they drink, date, fornicate, etc and they are trying to get help now. but didn't know they did all these haraam things. How would you handle this situation? [/quote] I think my first reaction would be to want to distance myself from them. However, if they are trying to get help, perhaps they need their friends to stick by them and to strengthen them. [quote author=bhaloo link=board=madrasa;num=1036134113;start=0#0 date=11/01/02 at 02:01:53]2). Does your relationship with them change?[/quote] I think it inevitably has to, suddenly you see them in a new light, and I guess you can' t help it :( [quote author=bhaloo link=board=madrasa;num=1036134113;start=0#0 date=11/01/02 at 02:01:53]3). Do you think these people have anything to offer that can help with your imaan?[/quote] Perhaps they may not be able to help strengthen your eeman, but they would make you feel humility and gratefulness towards Allah swt for his blessings upon you, and for Him making your eeman strong. [quote author=bhaloo link=board=madrasa;num=1036134113;start=0#0 date=11/01/02 at 02:01:53]4). Do you think its selfish to surround yourself with only good people and not pay attention to the people struggling in this deen? If possible give examples from your own situation. [/quote] Yes and no. Yes: because everyone struggles with their eeman at some point - and who knows when you might need a friend to help??? No: ultimately each person must work to get to jannah, and we are all responsible for our own actions. Perhaps being around such people would have a negative effect and decrease one's eeman. [wlm] |
| Re: Friends that date and drink. |
|---|
| Barr |
| 11/01/02 at 05:45:50 |
| Assalamu'alaikum :-) [quote]1). What if you have some friends and maybe a few years later find out that they drink, date, fornicate, etc and they are trying to get help now. but didn't know they did all these haraam things. How would you handle this situation?[/quote] I was shocked and sad. But I stayed there. This is the time, when your friend needs you, for you to be there.. for her iman is on the edge.. and leaving her... I feel...would just be suicidal, for both of us. Its a test of your friendship. [quote]2). Does your relationship with them change? [/quote] No.. alhamdulillah, we got closer. I just feel that she went through a moment.. or rather, many moments of weaknesses.... At the end of the day, I would never know, how I would be if I experienced the same thing... and I'd never know, if I am tempted by the same thing, I'd pass or fail... but what I know, is that when I need help, I want my friends... the people whom I love... to be with me and support me. And I'd wanna do the same to them, inshaallah. [quote]3). Do you think these people have anything to offer that can help with your imaan? [/quote] Yes... we meet and part because of Allah. And this has got to be a two-way relationship with each other. Since my friend has shown remorse and wanted to be closer to Allah, we grow with each other and got closer, alhamdulillah. I think Allah has put in love in our hearts... I think its one of the signs of Allah that we felt, mashaAllah. [quote]Do you think its selfish to surround yourself with only good people and not pay attention to the people struggling in this deen? If possible give examples from your own situation. [/quote] I think it really depends on one's level of iman, and it depends on the type of friends one has. If struggling in this deen, means that one has the commitment and dedication to walk through this path, no matter how hard, then, I'd say, such person is someone worth being with. And not being with such person.. well.. is a loss. But if one does not struggle, and is ignorant and oblivious to many things.. than... it really depends on the kind of situation that I am in. If her actions will influence me negatively, and will stray me away from Allah, then, I'd probably, spend less time with such person and more time with those who can bring me closer to Allah. Those whom I can grow with. But if, I have developed a certain level of [i]mannaah[/i].. like a "resistant level" , of which it acts like an "antibiotic"... where, I can still maintain my iman, and akhlaq... then, I don't see why I should not be their friends. To me, selfish, is when one is able to give, and yet restricts the benevolence... a perpetual state of relaxation in one's a comfort zone. A personal example... well.. hmmm, my friends (those whom I've had these experiences with) are practicing sisters whose iman were tested.. I don't know how else to explain it without revealing wot happened. Suffice to say I'd never imagine that they would fall deep in their iman to commit such acts. But I love them very much, and I don't think I can leave them... they are a part of me, and they help make me wot I am, now. ALlahu'alam.. we're sisters in Islam, we shared so many tears and laughters together.. and like I said before, this is a test of our relationship.. and personally, it made me realise how much they mean to me, and how much, we're willing to sacrifice for one another... Allahua'lam :-) |
| 11/01/02 at 09:55:26 |
| Barr |
| Re: Friends that date and drink. |
|---|
| Red |
| 11/01/02 at 06:09:12 |
| [slm], Some very interesting questions Bro. [quote author=bhaloo link=board=madrasa;num=1036134113;start=0#0 date=11/01/02 at 02:01:53] 1). What if you have some friends and maybe a few years later find out that they drink, date, fornicate, etc and they are trying to get help now. but didn't know they did all these haraam things. How would you handle this situation? [/quote] If they were still very good friends with you while they were doing these haraam things, it makes me think that even though they were doing something wrong, they stayed friends with you because they respected your personality and maybe were struggling to change their ways. I don't know, I would only be sad and since I cannot stay mad long, I would be giving them my full support without delay. [quote author=bhaloo link=board=madrasa;num=1036134113;start=0#0 date=11/01/02 at 02:01:53] 2). Does your relationship with them change? [/quote] It can only change as Sis Barr says by getting closer! :) I guess I am a sort of positive person for some reason, but I think I would only want to get closer and to help us both get strong with our iman. [quote author=bhaloo link=board=madrasa;num=1036134113;start=0#0 date=11/01/02 at 02:01:53] 3). Do you think these people have anything to offer that can help with your imaan? [/quote] Yes, they definitely have a lot to offer me! Those people who are truly willing to change themselves to get closer to Allah are amazing, this is the time where they do lots of research for themselves, and they are going to want to share it with you. They had to have a reason to want to change their previous behavior, and they share with you why they are changing. You can never stop learning about Islam! :-) [quote author=bhaloo link=board=madrasa;num=1036134113;start=0#0 date=11/01/02 at 02:01:53] 4). Do you think its selfish to surround yourself with only good people and not pay attention to the people struggling in this deen? If possible give examples from your own situation. [/quote] I have always noticed that the people who are really struggling with their deen always come forward to people that can help them. But, it is hard to help those people who do not want to change. I talk to everybody in my community if they wish to talk to me, but, usually those people, who are doing things unislamic, do not even bother to talk to me more than a minute. I don't know if thats because they could care less about me, or because they can't relate to me. Here's the sort of situation i hate, and that has happened to me recently with a person I know who does some thing considered to me unislamic: [i] sis red, sitting down in a hall party chatting with friends, waiting for what else...? food! In come a Muslim person sis red has known for a very long time. They stand near sis red talking to other people, so sis red tries to be good like everyone else and comes to say salam... [/i] Sis Red: Assalamualkium Sister.... (try to hug her as well) [i] Other sis ignores sis red... and continues to talk to her friends. But sister red never gives up, so she gives it another try[/i] Sis Red: Assalamualkium Sister...(try to do the huggy thing AGAIN) [i] This time, the sister looks at Sis. Red for a second but still ignores her... Sis Red being the stupid person she is...tries yet AGAIN [/i] Sis Red: Assalamualkium Sister...(I ain't doing the huggy thing again...think i am gettting smarter... :) ) [i] Would you still believe it... the sis STILL ignore sis red! Finally sis red gets some common sense and walks away... [/i] Finally got that out of my system. Things like that really get me mad... and won't stop bothering you even the next day. That person I was saying salam to I have know since I was born... She was also talking to people i know, but who I don't hang out with. Can you believe that before I got up to salam, another person came right up to her (of course she knows this person better) and said salam. Oh well, maybe she did not hear me because she was talking to her friends... I don't know if this relates to what your talking about Bro bhaloo, but what i am trying to say is it is hard to talk to people who don't want to talk to you, and are doing things unislamic. An age old saying will always stay the same, "you are known by the friends you keep". Thats why I said in the first question, if that persons has been still real great friends while they were doing those activities, it must mean that they have always wanted to change their behavior. That is why, I always say salam as much as possible to everyone, If they don't care to talk to me, than I can only surround myself with those people who are like me. This world is real tough. I just pray that everybody in this world can live peacefully, and that all the muslims can get closer to Allah, and closer as a ummah. just my two cent... red :) |
| 11/01/02 at 06:48:41 |
| Red |
| Re: Friends that date and drink. |
|---|
| Kathy |
| 11/01/02 at 08:04:59 |
| [slm] For those of you having doubts about being there for these "sinners"- please stay away from doing any dawah [img]http://www.jordysworld.de/emoticons/trau21.gif[/img] dawah is not only for the possible reverts but i have seen many an interested Muslim listening in when I give talks, and later say 'I didn't know that'. I have seen Muslims who have covered, stop fornicating, drinking, etc... and repent. Alhumdullillah, may Allah swt reward those that stuck by me. I wonder if I have made a difference in this world and would I have[img]http://www.jordysworld.de/emoticons/conf09.gif[/img]..... if the Muslims abandoned me during my rough spells. |
| 11/01/02 at 17:57:12 |
| Kathy |
| Re: Friends that date and drink. |
|---|
| Nafisa |
| 11/01/02 at 10:26:15 |
| [slm] [quote] 4). Do you think its selfish to surround yourself with only good people and not pay attention to the people struggling in this deen? If possible give examples from your own situation. [/quote] i think it might be easier to reverse the roles to understand the nature of friendship. Just speaking hypothetically, if i was deemed a 'sinner' by my muslim friends who subsequently abandoned me i would feel personally insulted becos it would be obvious they are judging me based on my actions. And that wud certainly leave me in no hurry to correct my behaviour. i think it wud unfair to lump ppl into 'good' or 'sinners' categories and adjust my circle of friends accordingly. everyone deserves a chance. Also, i'm sure i read somewhere that we muslims are supposed to keep in contact with all our friends. I dont think friendship shud come with conditions. A form of dawah is by being an example of a good muslim and if a person has this positive influence in their lives I think they will benefit even if we dont. However, if you feel that they might influence you in a bad way then maybe distancing wud be a gd idea. I remember that was the case for me when i was at uni. the muslim girls in my class were a little boy crazy and had boyfs and i didnt want to fall into that crowd and mindset for fear of being influenced. |
| Re: Friends that date and drink. |
|---|
| theOriginal |
| 11/01/02 at 13:26:06 |
| [slm] Just a disclaimer on my part: These are merely opinions, rooting from personal experience and a my own lifetime of reflection. I do not have the knowledge, and certainly not the authority, to be saying anything on Islamic grounds. And so if I offend you, I apologize in advance. Inevitably, your relationship with your friend, after you find out about things like this, changes. And inevitably, you begin to ask yourself whether it is healthy to remain in contact, even at the slightest level, with a person who you find has been "sinning" (hate that word, because it applies to humans only in a relative fashion. The absoluteness of that word is contrary to our limited capacity to understand its true brevity). The reason for this questioning is simple. We know that it affects our Imaan, even though we might not know how exactly. This was stated very well by our beloved Prophet (saw), in the Hadith (and I am greatly paraphrasing) about a person entering a perfume store vs. a coal store. I am pretty sure that most the Muslims reading this, know what the Hadith states, but for the benefit of those who might not, I will ask for someone else to please post the complete Hadith. (Jazak Allah Khair) I agree it is very harmful to magnify a relationship with this person. At the same time, we cannot simply expel this person from our company, from any good that they, or even we, may receive. It is also a Sunnah of the Prophet (saw) to talk to people at their level, and to offer the right kind of naseeha. Being a part of a heterogenous society, I have a heterogenous group(s) of friends. (More than one group of friends.) And some of these people, MashaAllah, bring me closer to the deen just by simply existing. Some of the other people, MashaAllah, bring me closer to the deen because of they way they are finding themselves. Neither is good, neither is bad. And I have no right to subjucate that fact, anyway. We are all at our own levels of faith, and if we all hung around people who we think are better than us, then no one would have any friends. (I'm feeling the urge to bring in calculus into this.) Either that, or we'd have really low self-esteem. Neither of which is an optimal solution. Anyhow, in answer to your basic underlying question, I think it's wrong to isolate any single part of the Ummah, which we are all a part of. Wallahu Alam. Wasalaam SF. |
| Re: Friends that date and drink. |
|---|
| panjul |
| 11/01/02 at 15:23:07 |
| [slm] well, after finding that out and deciding that you shouldn't leave them, and u try to steer them on the right path you get this from them: "please just be my friend and don't preach me?" |
| Re: Friends that date and drink. |
|---|
| UmmWafi |
| 11/02/02 at 11:03:49 |
| [slm] No long answers from me. To all the questions posted, I can only say this. None amongst us is perfect. None. I find that changes are most effectively initiated and sustained through kindness and to be kind one has to learn to empathise. I find that it is rather tricky to try and be kind at a distance. Wallahualam bissawab... |
| Re: Friends that date and drink. |
|---|
| Asim |
| 11/02/02 at 13:39:51 |
| Assalaamu alaikum, This is not exactly answering Arshad's questions but regarding friends that have bad habits and practices in general. Being with such friends does have some rub off effect on oneself. To think otherwise is a bit naive, I think. I believe there is support for this in the sunnah of the prophet [saw] and his companions. Of course, the extent of the 'rub off' depends on the level of one's knowledge and eemaan, as Barr mentioned. Theorizing a little... Who is the dominant friend? I think in all friendships one party is dominant. This is the person whose wishes are usually followed when the two are together. So if you are the dominant friend, then the rub off effect would be less. And secondly, how much time you spend together? Spending more time will have a greater rub off effect. What is done in that time is also important. Time spent at office is different from time spent togther for leisure. So, this is not saying we should dump such friend, just that we should analyze ourselves, the friendship, be careful, and more importantly, moderate (in friendship, which I guess should be the rule for ALL friendships). Wasalaam. |
| 11/02/02 at 13:45:49 |
| Asim |
| Re: Friends that date and drink. |
|---|
| Ameeraana |
| 11/02/02 at 16:02:35 |
| Its a hard thing to deal with when those close to you are straying...and you should only "try" to help-- because all you can do is try, if you are strong enough not to get trapped in their ways. And you also have to understand that change takes time. Noone is going to change their ways until they want to do it. You cannot force your views upon others but you can lead by example. Maybe if you stick around a while your example will start to change the way your friends think about the choices they are making. Don't get a "I'm holier than thou" attitude toward them either. That attitude from a Muslim friend of mine did not help me at all want to become a Muslim when I was studying it. Your friends are not perfect and neither are you. You can only help so much and then the rest is up to them. If it seems hopeless, than of course many relationships will become strained and their will be distance that will only grow longer and longer. Its only natural. It takes a strong person/persons to keep the relationship growing when there is so much differences in lifestyles that one does not want to emulate. It also is different with different friends and their situations. I've had relationships that have strained, mostly they are with the friends of mine whom were in gangs and sold/used drug and violence-- It was just too hard to stay around with them while watching them abuse--not physically but mentally and emotionally, their children and abuse the welfare system. I tried so hard to set an example to them but in the end it became too much for me to be around the drugs and guns, knives, and the violence. . But there are plenty of friends of mine who drink, fornicate, and go to nightclubs but they know who I am and what my beliefs are and they never pressure me into doing any of what they do. I don't tell them what they are doing is wrong either. But, there are times when we discuss our religions and ask each other questions and such and then I do teach as much as I know about Islam and even my former religion, Buddhism. One of my friends was a Muslim before I, and then had some horrible experiences with a couple Imams here in Colorado, and then moved to Saudi Arabia to get married and was abused by her husband, and then converted back to Christianity. My conversion to Islam shocked her, as well as some other friends, but with our discussions about religion and such, she converted back to Islam and we are learning together. Another friend of mine has watched me change and has decided to participate more in her church and wants to better herself and start singing Gospel music. Its not Islam, but she wants to get more in touch with religion to help better herself. Oh my, have I babbled on or what!!! |
| Re: Friends that date and drink. |
|---|
| bhaloo |
| 11/03/02 at 03:16:09 |
| [slm] Wow, there are some really cool responses in here, I'm going to comment on everyone that replied in here. And I was thinking to myself, no brothers wrote a response, and I was a little disappointed. I was thinking to myself, no bro. hanif, no kashif, no abu hamza, no br. khalid, no asim, no brothers at all. And then I visited again, and there was Asim's post, and I was like wow, he posted. :) Now on to my responses. Sister Attia's response reminded me of how I felt and thought before going into a situation like this. But I discovered that the reality was different then I imagined. That's why when I was reading sister Barr's post, I could totally relate to her descriptions and what she went through because I had experienced/was experiencing exactly what she describedd and I felt the same way as Sister Barr. It was kinda weird. But there was this concern always in the back of my mind, would I be dragged down, would my imaan suffer? That's my main concern, and questions related to it. Sister Red, I'm not sure I agree with you that they DEFINITELY have a lot to offer in improving your imaan. While there maybe a lot of discussion about what the ulema have said on the problem, it didn't really benefit me because these problems haven't been an issue for me, so I couldn't really draw benefit from that research. Sister kathy I don't think you addressed any of the questions I asked, but of course I agree with you that if someone needs help we should always be willing to offer a helping hand. Sister Nafisa I agree with your assessment that one should remain friends with their friends unless they know that they will be affected negatively. Sister theOriginal, I'm not sure the relationship with the friend has to change but I agree that it does affect one's imaan (thought not really sure to what extent). And the coal and perfume store hadith doesn't sound familiar. My basic underlying question is related to my imaan and how its affected. (I think you might want to you a Taylor Expansion series instead of Calculus, as it will be better suited for the equation you are trying to derive. I admit I was very disappointed in myself when I saw your other Calculus equation in that I have forgotten most of my Calculus (the last time I took it was in the 10th grade, didn't have any exposure to it in College other then some more advanced mathematics courses)). Panjul, I've heard that before, thats a difficult situation to be in. Sister UmmWafi, I agree with your assessment that in order to treat someone, kindness is key, but I don't think you addressed any of the questions asked. I was expecting a long answer. *cough* Asim that's a very good point about friendships, and having the proper balance in them. Sister Ameeraana, you are absolutely right, patience is the key, and dealing with someone that has/had a very different lifestyle requires a lot of patience and understanding. |
| Re: Friends that date and drink. |
|---|
| Kathy |
| 11/03/02 at 10:11:42 |
| [slm] I did not answer your question because it irritated me and I read it as if you were acting "holier than thou." I read it as if you were saying that we should walk away from anyone with sin, just to protect ourselves. Hence my dawah comment. Yes, in this way i did answer your question, just not clear, my apologies. From comments e-mailed and IM to me, so did may others. I am hoping that those who are better than me will continue to embrace me and not worry if I am dragging them down. Does the relationship change? Sure.. for a nano secound...then I re-evaluate the situation and take all the good from it and leave the bad behind. There are a few Muslims that in my opinion, could drag me down. However, I take advantage of this test and rise above it. You know the hadith about the different stages of seeing something wrong.? I could hate it in my heart, but it is much better for me to do something about it. So keeping this in mind, how can I drop a person in need? Allah swt will guide me if my intentions are right and I am there to help and not join. Sometimes when a bunch of us get together, inevitably we will begin to talk about someone. It is wonderful that the pious one doesn't get up and leave, but takes the time to point out our errors. |
| 11/03/02 at 18:38:57 |
| Kathy |
| Re: Friends that date and drink. |
|---|
| Abd_al-Rashid |
| 11/03/02 at 14:03:38 |
| [slm] My first reaction is to help them. I don't judge them, I don't give them fatwa. From my personal experience they are so deep into the haraam that it's like trying to push a car out of a mud pit. After a while I realized you can't help someone who doesn't want to help themselves. That's the key, if they sincerely repent and want to be helped then with the permission of Allah you will suceed in helping them. Otherwise it's a waste of time. It's a balancing act, at what point do you decide it's best to stay away from them, when they are affecting your imaan? or when your advice has no effect? or when it seems Allah is not answering your duah for them? None of us want to be guilty of abandoning a Muslim but every situation has its limits. If after constant sincere advice and encouragement I see no effort on their part, even if its an atom of effort, I give my salaam and withdraw. It's like that saying "you can't beat a dead horse" [wlm] |
| Re: Friends that date and drink. |
|---|
| BroHanif |
| 11/03/02 at 18:29:31 |
| Salaams, This really got me... [quote]. If after constant sincere advice and encouragement I see no effort on their part, even if its an atom of effort, I give my salaam and withdraw. It's like that saying "you can't beat a dead horse" [/quote] Really ? why are we lenient on oursleves and harsh on others when it comes to the hukam of Allah. Let us be compassionanate and merciful towards others, learn from the seerah of the prophet [saw] to understand this. [quote]1). What if you have some friends and maybe a few years later find out that they drink, date, fornicate, etc and they are trying to get help now. but didn't know they did all these haraam things. How would you handle this situation? [/quote] Allah is the most merciful he is the most kind. If they did this wrong I'd still be a friend to them I'd advise them on what approach they should take. I hate the sin but I don't hate the person. I'm sure we were perhaps worse than them, we didn't come out as angels from our mothers stomach, we made mistakes and trangressed the laws of Allah. Yet the merciful is always there and thats what we should do, invite to Allah and not to the sin. Be positive in this dawah don't give up and don't have a defeatish attitude. [quote]2). Does your relationship with them change? [/quote] I'd be more concerned for them and pray for them but I don't think so it would change. I mean if they were clubbing or dating then its not like I'm going to go. We may be distant yet whenever I'd see them I'd give em salam and enquire how they were and if I was concerned about a certain sin I'd try to take them away from it buy meeting in a neutal place like a coffe bar, park or just simply go for a walk. [quote]3). Do you think these people have anything to offer that can help with your imaan? [/quote] Certainly, for me, it makes you think that how the prophet of Allah went through much all for the sake of saving humanity. I mean can anyone imagine your own uncle going against you in dawah ? then your family is put in peril, then sanctions are placed upon you and your followers, your banished from your home land and then your deen and life is attacked all becuase of your dawah. Yet when the prophet of Allah conquers Macca with 10,000 men he says everyone is forigiven. With this act so many people became muslims. Thus we need to adopt the teachings of the prophet of Allah, we need to be a good teacher to understand how do we give dawah under what conditions which leads it to being fruitful. [quote]Do you think its selfish to surround yourself with only good people and not pay attention to the people struggling in this deen? [/quote] For example, many years ago a certain group in dawah used to invite people, yet when I used to see them I crossed the road fearing that they would give me the 20 minute pep talk on how to live like a muslim. Never once was friendship established, I never felt they really wanted to know me it was more like get him for dawah. It was more like them and us. I think it is selfish, everybody struggles in deen, whether s/he is a friend of Allah or not. We all have our internal wars and as part of the wider ummah we should help our bro/sisters. How can we aim to be lovers of Allah and his prophet [saw] when we are opposite ends of what he strove for. Since when did the prophet of Allah ever disown us ? Till his last breath he was praying for this ummah, whoever had a problem and came to the prophet of Allah, on whatever level of imam he would help them. We should be like that as well. If we create a society of them and us, we fail to hear or see the problems affecting our ummah. We won't see the sins being commited because we're too busy in building our own jannah. We'll think that if we stick to our friends who are on the similiar iman level to us then we're ok, we'll shun others to whom we see as inferior muslims because we've seen them commiting some sin. Sometimes we come across in dawah, people who are so lonely that there is no one to hear them. When all they need is perhaps a listening ear, a real friend who'll shake their hand or who gives them salam or somebody who gives them a hug. These people could be so messed up that the only deen that they do have is commiting sins, but they want to break away from this but don't see a way out. They know its wrong conducting sin x but everytime they go the mosque or study circle they feel the 20 pairs of eyes looking through them, they feel questioned and even feel humiliated so they turn once again onto the same sin circle of friends. Yet we shun them because of what they have done. We think that Allah only belongs to us and his not worthy of this persons worship. Arn't we the ones who pray Surah Fatiha x many times in namaz, and the first verses that we pray are of his mercy. So wheres our compassion gone ? Salaams Hanif |
| Re: Friends that date and drink. |
|---|
| Barr |
| 11/03/02 at 21:42:36 |
| Wa'alaikumussalam warahmatullah, [quote]Quote:. If after constant sincere advice and encouragement I see no effort on their part, even if its an atom of effort, I give my salaam and withdraw. It's like that saying "you can't beat a dead horse" [i]Really ? why are we lenient on oursleves and harsh on others when it comes to the hukam of Allah. Let us be compassionanate and merciful towards others, learn from the seerah of the prophet to understand this. [/i][/quote] I think there is truth is wot Br Rasheed said. It is very difficult to keep on giving advise and being there for someone who doesn't seem to want it. It takes a lot of time, effort, dedication and resilience on ones' part to help a person who stubbornly refuse to be helped. Perhaps, it is not through us that Allah will change the person... but through someone else. ~ we are not the gates of guidance. Perhaps Allah wants him to experience something first, before his heart is open to guidance... Perhaps, perhaps... And with all of those "perhaps", is a steadfast and continuous du'a from us to them. So that if we do have to "leave" them, we are always with them, in du'a. Allahua'lam :-) |
| Re: Friends that date and drink. |
|---|
| bhaloo |
| 11/03/02 at 22:25:48 |
| [slm] [quote author=Kathy link=board=madrasa;num=1036134113;start=0#12 date=11/03/02 at 10:11:42] I did not answer your question because it irritated me and I read it as if you were acting "holier than thou." I read it as if you were saying that we should walk away from anyone with sin, just to protect ourselves. Hence my dawah comment. Yes, in this way i did answer your question, just not clear, my apologies. [/quote] It is very unfortunate that people don't give others the benefit of doubt and assume the worst of them, how very sad. :( Remember the hadith about making 70 excuses for your brother. [quote] From comments e-mailed and IM to me, so did may others. [/quote] This part upset me a lot. Why are people backbiting me? ??? If someone doesn't understand what I said, they should ask me directly or they could ask it publically on the board for clarification. Instead they discuss it with someone that doesn't even know what I'm thinking on this matter. This is just plain shameful. I've never discussed any personal issues/problems I have with Kathy, so don't ask her, ask me if you need some clarification. But alhumdullilah just about every post in this thread was very beneficial, and much appreciated. Brother Rasheed you are right, if people don't want help, you can't really help them because they don't want to listen. |
| Re: Friends that date and drink. |
|---|
| Abu_Atheek |
| 11/04/02 at 01:31:39 |
| [slm] [quote]It is very unfortunate that people don't give others the benefit of doubt and assume the worst of them, how very sad. :( Remember the hadith about making 70 excuses for your brother. [/quote] Please pray for me dear brothers and sisters that Allah Almighty help me act on this Hadith. Jazakumullahu Khairan |
| 11/04/02 at 01:32:44 |
| Abu_Atheek |
| Re: Friends that date and drink. |
|---|
| Fatimah |
| 11/04/02 at 02:35:54 |
| [slm] [quote]This was stated very well by our beloved Prophet (saw), in the Hadith (and I am greatly paraphrasing) about a person entering a perfume store vs. a coal store. I am pretty sure that most the Muslims reading this, know what the Hadith states, but for the benefit of those who might not, I will ask for someone else to please post the complete Hadith.[/quote] [quote]And the coal and perfume store hadith doesn't sound familiar.[/quote] Abu Musa Al-Ash`ari (May Allah be pleased with him) reported: I heard the Prophet (PBUH) saying, "The similitude of good company and that of bad company is that of the owner of musk and of the one blowing the bellows. The owner of musk would either offer you some free of charge, or you would buy it from him, or you smell its pleasant fragrance; and as for the one who blows the bellows (i.e., the blacksmith), he either burns your clothes or you smell a repugnant smell". [Al-Bukhari and Muslim]. Commentary: This Hadith enjoins that one should sit in the company of the pious persons and avoid the impious ones because the former has the quality of a perfume seller and the latter of a blacksmith. In the association of pious men, one stands to gain all the time and ultimately becomes like them. In bad company one is out-and-out a loser and can never hope to gain any benefit from them. |
| Re: Friends that date and drink. |
|---|
| BrKhalid |
| 11/04/02 at 04:04:46 |
| Asalaamu Alaikum ;-) Apologies Br Arshad but I couldn't really add to what had already been said. Indeed there was an awful lot of excellent points in this thread. Br Asim made a particular good off topic point though about the *nature* of a friendship and the type of influences it has. What personally got me thinking about this thread though is the wisdom behind why Allah would put us in such a position with this friend. Was it to learn from their experience? Or would it be to actually help them become a stronger person? May be a bit of both perhaps? It's a bit like one of those computer games where you pick up all this equipment/weapons on the way, and then you have to use them at the right time later on. I get the feeling sometimes that Allah teaches us stuff from other people because one day we (or may be our children) will go through the same thing and the knowledge we gained will be invaluable. Anyway, I say carry on posting these moral dilemmas. ;-) |
| 11/04/02 at 10:10:48 |
| BrKhalid |
| Re: Friends that date and drink. |
|---|
| UmmWafi |
| 11/04/02 at 19:52:03 |
| [slm] Oh wow...after all these, uhhhh, I doubt that a long answer from me would be good :) Thus, I withdraw. Wassalam. |
| Re: Friends that date and drink. |
|---|
| elite_ansaar |
| 11/11/02 at 05:22:59 |
| Asalam Alaykum The Hadith of 70 excuses must be applied to all situations. I do not want to get too involved in this hot topic on my first day, but I found many times when muslims selectively use this hadith if and when it suits them. As muslims, we always make excuses for our brothers and sisters errors, but not only for ones we like, but those muslims who we may not see eye to eye with, should also be protected. I agree with sister Kathy in that we as an Ummah judge and take the Moral high ground far too quickly. May Allah make the muslims protectors of one another. Elite |
| Re: Friends that date and drink. |
|---|
| zomorrud |
| 11/13/02 at 15:34:13 |
| [color=black]assalamu alaikum, I wanted to share 2 things that I read in a book that discusses time-management, and found insightful. The book emphasized 2 things in one of the chapters: 1. Spend time/effort on things that will assist you in bringing you closer to your values and goals. 2. Every 'yes' is a 'no' to something else. The underlying presumption of the book is that we are human beings and have limitations as thus. Some might find the above advice cold and very uncompassionate. I find it realistic. But in reference to Br. Arshad's question, I kept wondering whether the issue would even arise if the unpractising person is a family relative. I guess not all families/relatives are close, and it may be the case that this can apply. Each situation is unique, I believe, and therefore deserves a customized close look at the benefits and harms of staying associated with an upractising friend, and at which level. Certainly no one can write rules for situations like these. What might help make a decision, hard as it maybe, is to realize the different variables: [list][*]Is there any glimmer of hope for that friend? - if s/he is glad to be your friend as you are (a good practising muslim), even though the friendship was not based on that, then there is some hope, insha'Allah. [*]What are your limits as a human being? How impressionable are you? Develop a log whereby you assess your actions/thoughts on a daily basis and try to see if there is a correlation of any sort between spending time wth that friend and your daily ibaadah/ level of your knowledge. This part might be hard. You have to pick 'measurable' parameters about your level of iman and try to assess the significance of the correlation. [*]How influencing/patient are you? If you are staying in this friendship with the hopes of pulling that friend towards being more practising, you have to ask yourself if you are up to this task. Some of us have better skills at leadership and taking initiative (I don't!), while some of us are more of the loyal type with less leadership qualities, but have strengths in artistic, analytical qualities. [*]What is your heart telling you? Listen to it, usually it is correct. [*]...(this is a working list, so feel free to identify important variables) [/list] So, I empathize that either way it is a hard decision. But "ma khaba man istakhaar .. " a (partial) hadith meaning "s/he who asked for guidance from Allah by way of istikharah, s/he shall not fail" [rough translation]. The important thing is to make a decision, and stick with it insha'Allah. Take care Wassalam z.[/color] |
| 11/13/02 at 15:36:06 |
| zomorrud |
| Re: Friends that date and drink. |
|---|
| muslimah853 |
| 11/14/02 at 15:51:48 |
| [slm] I guess I'll add my two cents here. Much of it is probably more or less a repeat of things other people said, but it's my experience nonetheless. I don't think there is one right or wrong answer, as many of the other people have alluded to before, there are many variables in any given situation. I also don't think that the answer always needs to be an either/or type thing. There are times when walking away is the right thing to do, there are times when it is not. There are times when one retreats and advances. It is not a static thing. I have been on both sides of the coin, so to speak. I clearly remember being a new Muslim and having serious trouble acquiring/dropping certain habits. I clearly remember two types of Muslims in my life at that time--the type who put me down all the time because I wasn't perfect--and one sister who embraced me anyway. The first group generally got ignored. I didn't spend time around them unless I had to, and their advice fell on deaf ears. There were certain things that I *knew* I had to do, but hearing their harping about it (many times very snidely) every time we met only made things worse. And even worse than that, were the things that went unsaid. When people think you're untouchable, or that somehow you'll pollute them, or that somehow they're better than you, it generally shows. It generally doesn't endear people to the message you're trying to get across. On the other hand, negative behavior definitely is a drag, and it absolutely can affect us. Otherwise, our beloved, [saw], would not have placed so much emphasis on good companions and spouses. I'm sure we all know this too from personal experience. I have a good example with a happy ending, thus far anyway, may Allah continue to improve it. One of my high school buddies recently took her shahada, al hamdulillah. It has been up and down with her for me...there were periods in our relationship where I was beginning to practice more and she was going backwards in terms of behavior and habits, even from where she was as a non-Muslim. It got to the point where it was hard for me to spend time with her. Well, I didn't really, but I maintained the relationship from a distance for my own sanity. In other words, she always knew I was her friend, I still visited her or called her periodically, and vice versa. As time went on, things in her changed--and she began to come back, and the interest all came from her. I helped her along and prodded her (gently) as much as I could. Al hamdulillah Allah opened her heart to do this (finally..she's been believing for a long time, even when she was doing the other stuff). But though she knew I didn't approve of certain things, in fact she would not discuss certain aspects of her life with me, (don't ask, don't tell :)) she always knew that I was there for her, and when she wanted to come back, she knew she could come to me. I pray that Allah strenghthens and guides her. On the other hand, there are people who I am not strong enough to deal with. And I have walked away from people. I've never said to anyone, "I can't deal with you anymore because of..." and I've tried to be cordial if I ever run into them, and I really try to be sincere in my concern for their souls. But naturally we drifted, or I consciously removed myself froi the situation. All this to say, there is a balance between deserting people and turning our noses in the air and protecting our own iman and such. In any situation it is important to know your own limits and to make our decisions on the basis of compassion and wisdom, as opposed to doing so out of a sense of arrogance and/or ignorance of the practicalities of any given situation. Remember, just as dangerous as the harm that could very well come to one from being affected by sinful companions is the arrogance that often accompanies our "enjoining the right and forbidding the wrong." Sometimes the thing that they can teach us is compassion. Just a note, I am not accusing anyone here of anything, I'm just saying this to hopefully give all of us something to think about. May Allah help us all to be good companions. [wlm] |
| Re: Friends that date and drink. |
|---|
| Halima |
| 11/15/02 at 10:25:06 |
| Well put BroHanif. Our Prophet Salalaahu Aleihi Waslaam wil not abondon any of us even in Yamul Qiyama. On the day of each one is judged on his/her sin, he will try to balance the scales for his Umma by putting his Imama (turban) just to tip the scale to the right to increase the good deeds. Yet we have so many righteous Muslims who behind their righteouness committ the kind of sins that even the sinners will be shy of committing. Every Muslim's obligation is to try and show the right way to the best of your ability. Leave repentence to Allah. Safeguard your emaan without compromising yourself. If you emaan is stronger, you can help a friend without necessarily being swayed to what he/she is doing. Remember, we are human. We are prone to straying. But we can always find our way back. Halima |
| Re: Friends that date and drink. |
|---|
| jaihoon |
| 11/15/02 at 16:28:32 |
| [quote author=BroHanif link=board=madrasa;num=1036134113;start=0#14 date=11/03/02 at 18:29:31]Salaams, For example, many years ago a certain group in dawah used to invite people, yet when I used to see them I crossed the road fearing that they would give me the 20 minute pep talk on how to live like a muslim. Never once was friendship established, I never felt they really wanted to know me it was more like get him for dawah. It was more like them and us. [/quote] How very true... I am sure many have had such 'road-cross'ing experiences as you. :) |
Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board |