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one line answers of hijab?
Ruqayah
11/09/02 at 04:09:46
asalamualaykum, i was just wondering what do you answer if a non muslim comes up to you with bad timing and asks why you where that thing on you head, how do you answer in the most informative, convincing, shortest, most polite way?
11/09/02 at 04:10:36
Ruqayah

Re: one line answers of hijab?
Kathy
11/09/02 at 09:04:03
[wlm] "Because I am Muslim" or "Because I want to" or "Because God says to"

Re: one line answers of hijab?
jannah
11/09/02 at 09:12:31
"I wear it out of modesty because it's part of my religion, I'm Muslim."

Re: one line answers of hijab?
theOriginal
11/09/02 at 11:17:59
[slm] T-Shirt sold at ISNA: "Hijaab: It looks Good, It's all in the Hood" (Or something like that??) SF.

Re: one line answers of hijab?
Saffiyah
11/09/02 at 12:15:38
[slm] What would u say to a young (non-muslim) child if he or she asked the same? Since they may be too young to understand the idea of modesty etc

Re: one line answers of hijab?
Barraa
11/09/02 at 15:01:28
"my protection and modesty"

Re: one line answers of hijab?
M.F.
11/09/02 at 15:20:09
I don't know if I'd actually say this but this is what I'd [i]want[/i] to say: "Because I believe that God asked women to cover their heads.  I think Muslims are the only ones that are actually still following what God asked, plus the few orthodox Jews, they wear scarves or wigs, and Christian nuns that still follow.  They obviously believe the same, it just doesnt get as much attention when they do it for some reason"

Re: one line answers of hijab?
theOriginal
11/09/02 at 16:13:50
[slm] I think I've said this before, but the modesty line NEVER works for me.  I get a barrage of questions that ensue.... The last time I had this conversation was with one of my students.  She responded with the following question: "Why would you want to be modest?"  She genuinely looked confused.  I told her that being modest serves as a reminder for what I believe to be the true meaning of life, and she responded with a "other than to make the most of it?"  I told her that I feel more comfortable knowing that people give me more credence because of my intellect/personality over my looks-- things I would rather be known for...But then she told me that it was a self-created myth because of certain given, built-in assumptions/factors into the present-day world model.  Oh and that I was SO missing out on the fun of flirting.  I had to laugh at that one.  Overall, as usual, I think I did a pretty poor job of justifying it to her. SF.

Re: one line answers of hijab?
Ameeraana
11/09/02 at 21:05:56
[color=Red]To a young non-muslim child I would say, "Well, do you know who Jesus is?"   hopefully they would answer "yes" "Well, his mother is the Virgin Mary.  Look at any statues or paintings of her and try to remember, or next time, take a look at what is on her head.  She is wearing hijab (or scarf so they understand it more) too. We are doing the same because Allah (God) tells us to." [/color] If they don't know who Jesus is... hmmmm, thats a tuffy   :) Ameera

Re: one line answers of hijab?
oneway2paradise
11/10/02 at 11:52:22
[slm] One day I was shopping with my sister-sister (our little joke because we are real half-sisters and we both converted to islam, so we're sisters in two ways :-*).  This little girl, maybe 5 or 6 years old said to me, "are you God?"  --astaghfirullah-la haula wa la quwatta illah billahil aTheem--  I was just shocked.  I said no.  She said, "well you look like it."  I didn't know what to say.  I just laughed.  Her mom smiled at me.  I don't think she knew what to say either.  :-[  I was wearing my black khimar that day.  So, I figured maybe the only exposure she has had to religion was pretty limited and she must have seen some images of nativity, nuns, or Maryam or something and somehow mixed everything up.   Anyway, my husband always tells me to focus on the belief with non-muslims.  Always mention the belief in the One and Only God and that the belief is the reason for our actions.  I liked how one person mentioned the nuns and orthodox Jews..I have used that example as well.  It's just like with new Muslims, you don't want to bombard them with a lot of rules and details.  That is just confusing and they're not ready for those new rules yet.  It's a slow process.  So, with non-muslims, the belief is the most important thing to portray.  Otherwise,  they just want to find a reason to justify their own bad actions and feel satisfied with themselves that they are not like us.  Like the one student someone mentioned.  She is so caught up in modern feminism. To go off on another tangent... ::)...  I realised that non-muslim women here in America (and I suppose any western culture or "modern" one) believe that they have liberated themselves from having to be, *gasp*, a wife.  They can have careers and illicit relations with whomever they please because they are "free."  So, they display themselves (because they dress that way "for themselves and not anyone else") and give themselves to the highest bidder.  What they don't realise is that they have actually freed the men from have to take responsibility for them.  Why would the men want to get married when they can get everything they want without the responsibility? Well, this is just supposed to be one-line answers to the hijab question and I ended up rambling on.    :-[  I'm sorry. Just say something like, "God has prescribed this dress for all women for our modesty and protection.  If you look at nuns, orthodox Jews, and even Mormons, Amish, and some Menonites, you will realise that our clothes are similar for the same reason, even though people don't notice." You can even mention that it's not just about covering the head.  "We observe modesty for our entire bodies, head included, because God wants us to."   Well, I suppose I'll stop now. Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh [slm]  :-)  :-)  :-)  :-*  :-*  :-*

Re: one line answers of hijab?
safa
11/11/02 at 05:01:34
[quote]Otherwise,  they just want to find a reason to justify their own bad actions and feel satisfied with themselves that they are not like us.  [/quote] Definitely.

Re: one line answers of hijab?
Kathy
11/11/02 at 10:46:24
[slm] Do you think people really want to know why?...Do you think they are receptive to our answers?

Re: one line answers of hijab?
Zahra
11/11/02 at 17:06:13
[slm] Sis Kathy, I think it depends on the person who is asking-if they genuinely want to learn about other religions or are just plain curious,they generally do get our message -like when I was explaining to this man and his wife why I wear the niqaab-he finally said ''Thats so wonderful,you know that your wife is only for you to look at!'' But then you get these people with their anti Islamic prejudices who just want to mock at you or have a hidden agenda behind their questions-you can speak pearls of wisdom,but if they dont want to understand,they never will. [wlm] :-)

Re: one line answers of hijab?
UmmWafi
11/12/02 at 00:04:54
[slm] Actually, if a woman comes up to me in the streets and ask me that question (and 99% of the time they are not receptive to answers as I have experienced) my response now is "Huh ? What do u mean by why I wear the scarf?" If I am in a good mood I will most prolly blink my eyes wide at him/her and say "Uhhh cos I am a Muslim ?" Then I walk away. Sighhh I am not a nice person am I ? Ignore me.

Re: one line answers of hijab?
oneway2paradise
11/12/02 at 01:20:00
[slm] I agree.  I think some are receptive and some just want to be nasty.  My husband noticed that two girls looked at me the other day kept walking, then turned around, walked back and looked at me again while laughing.  I heard them and saw them out of the corner of my eye but I just ignored them.  Oh well.  Insha Allah, I wil get to laugh at them on Day of Judgment.  But, there are nice times.  Once a little boy (about 10) walked up to me and said,"Hello."  I said hi.  He looked at my clothes and said, "I like that, it's neat."  I just laughed and said thanks.  His dad came and said, "Chriiiiis."  So the boy said, "I like her suit."  His mom smiled at me and I smiled at her.  It was nice.  Another time an old woman mentioned how good my English was.  I told her I was American.  So she asked , "what is that, Muslim or something."  I said yes.  She said, "I see some women with their faces covered, I don't know what they are but they sure are beautiful, they're so mysterious."  You never know.  I like one sisters response..I forgot who said it...uhhh, because I'm a Muslim.  It made me laugh.  :-/ [slm] wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh, Amber  :-) :-* :-)

Re: one line answers of hijab?
Jenna
11/13/02 at 18:06:52
[wlm] Because, I am Muslim and God tells us to  :-) That stumps them, they are like uhhhhhh ok......There are not buts...... It just like the question "why don't you eat pork" I dont say becuz it is disgusting that can lead to a barrage of but, but, but..... ::) Just God tells us not to eat it.......  :) If a child asks same response of course yet different tone of voice....  :D Your Sis'n Islaam Jenna :-)
11/13/02 at 18:07:45
Jenna

Re: one line answers of hijab?
UmmZaid
11/16/02 at 19:03:29
[slm] As for one liners, I don't know... whenever anyone says, "Aren't you hot in that thing," I sometimes wish I had the nerve to say "Hellfire's hotter." I wonder if any sister has *really* said that one... LOL.  Actually, I've been asked the question here in Jordan a few times.  Maybe I should try it out here.   ::) If someone just asked, I would say, "Because I'm Muslim." or "Because I believe God asks us to do this."   Sorry to say, though, but now that I think of it, most of the "Why are you wearing that?'s" I've gotten have come from other Muslims... (Why are you wearing jilbab? Why are you wearing a scarf? Why why why...)  :-)

Re: one line answers of hijab?
Barr
11/16/02 at 22:30:43
Wa'alaikumussalam warahmatullah :-) [quote]Because, I am Muslim and God tells us to  [/quote] I get counter responses when I say that... like.. [i]Yes.. but *WHY* do you still wear it[/i]   and I'm like huh ??? or, they'll respond... [i] but why does your God ask you to? [/i] or they'll respond.. [i] Yeah, but nowadays, Muslims don't wear it [/i] [img]http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons/19.gif[/img] Allahua'lam

Re: one line answers of hijab?
hijabi4L
11/17/02 at 01:04:38
[slm] "to say "Hellfire's hotter." I wonder if any sister has *really* said that one" ~~~~> I've used that one, it def. has some interesting reactions  ;) but it is among my faves!

Re: one line answers of hijab?
Kathy
11/17/02 at 09:18:59
[slm] As salaamu alaykum. A friend of mine, who died, used to say it all the time! The reaction of people was usually at first - they didn't get it, then startled, to looking uncomfortable.! This sister used to dress all most all in black and had sharp features. ...and she was the coolest sis I ever met.

Re: one line answers of hijab?
UmmZaid
11/17/02 at 19:28:35
[quote author=Kathy link=board=sis;num=1036832987;start=15#19 date=11/17/02 at 09:18:59] [slm] A friend of mine, who died [/quote] Allah Have Mercy on her. [quote] used to say it all the time! The reaction of people was usually at first - they didn't get it, then startled, to looking uncomfortable.![/quote] [quote]~~~~> I've used that one, it def. has some interesting reactions   but it is among my faves! [/quote] Sometimes, I think that people need to be provoked, even if slightly, into discomfort to start them on the road of thought.  And too, I suppose it would be useful for all those people who blather on about how hijab is a "socio-political statement," or that "the men force them to do that" or whatever.  A real zapper.  The only thing that holds me off is that I don't want anyone to come off with the impression that I believe or that Islam teaches that a woman who *doesn't* wear it is going to burn in the Hellfire b/c of it, y'know?
NS

Re: one line answers of hijab?
bismilla
11/18/02 at 02:12:41
[quote author=UmmZaid link=board=sis;num=1036832987;start=15#16 date=11/16/02 at 19:03:29] [slm] As for one liners, I don't know... whenever anyone says, "Aren't you hot in that thing," I sometimes wish I had the nerve to say "Hellfire's hotter." I wonder if any sister has *really* said that one... LOL.  Actually, I've been asked the question here in Jordan a few times.  Maybe I should try it out here.   ::)  [/quote] [font=comic SANS ms][color=green]Dear Sister, this is one of the best one-liners i have heard in a while, Alhumdulillah.  Insha Allah i will REMEMBER it when i need to use it in future. I generally read all these "wonderfully-kind-yet-to-the-point" replies but can never remember them when i come face-to-face with someone that questions me!!!!!! Insha Allah, this won't be that difficult to remember!!! LOL [/color][/font] [slm]  :-)
11/18/02 at 02:16:27
bismilla

Re: one line answers of hijab?
sis
11/18/02 at 09:12:16
alsalamu alaykum wa rhmat Allah wa barakatuhu ...one time a friend and i were having a discussion about what to say when someone comments about the hijab making it warmer for hijabis..and masha'Allah this sister came out with a beautiful answer: "the faith in my heart is stonger than the heat" and it makes sense to say this because ya, sometimes it is a little warmer with hijab on, but its by Allah ta'ala's mercy and the iman He ta'ala placed in our hearts, that we keep hijab....all we're doing is what Allah ta'ala knows is best for us:-) alhamdulillah

Re: one line answers of hijab?
Duha
11/18/02 at 11:33:53
[slm]that's a nice reply sis..alhamdlillah.. Once very soon after Sept. 11,a lady at the airport ( the ones who check your passport whaddayacallem?) pointed at my scarf and laughed and asked "Why are you so scared to take it off?" Duha(after she handed back my passport ;)  ):"I'm not scared to have it on." I thought that worked. What bothers me most is that they laugh and snicker about it and its really difficult to put any sense into such people and a good one liner seems the best response. Allahu Al'am. :-)

Re: one line answers of hijab?
UmmZaid
11/18/02 at 14:03:34
[quote author=sis link=board=sis;num=1036832987;start=15#22 date=11/18/02 at 09:12:16]alsalamu alaykum wa rhmat Allah wa barakatuhu ...one time a friend and i were having a discussion about what to say when someone comments about the hijab making it warmer for hijabis..and masha'Allah this sister came out with a beautiful answer: "the faith in my heart is stonger than the heat" [/quote] Oooh, I like that one!!!  :-)

Re: one line answers of hijab?
Muneerah134
11/18/02 at 17:57:23
[quote author=sis link=board=sis;num=1036832987;start=15#22 date=11/18/02 at 09:12:16] "the faith in my heart is stonger than the heat" and it makes sense to say this because ya, sometimes it is a little warmer with hijab on, but its by Allah ta'ala's mercy and the iman He ta'ala placed in our hearts, that we keep hijab....all we're doing is what Allah ta'ala knows is best for us:-) alhamdulillah [/quote] [slm] [color=Purple][font=Verdana][i]Alhamdullilah, I must use that one, I so like that. I always say, yes I'm hot, but the hellfire is... I too get interesting responses to it, but Muneerah, ever on the lookout for dawah opportunities, also points out that the person who asks that question must also be hot! I say, "aren't you?" They usually stop and think for a moment and say, "yeah, you know, I am!" :-[  Then I tell them about how light the fabric I'm wearing is and even though I am warm, there is air moving, etc. And that God commands us to be modest, both men and women. It is always interesting to hear what people think. My own mother thought that the niqab was for after you married and those sisters who were unmarried didn't have to wear it yet.  ::) Clearing that misconception was interesting! I was happy she asked. She did tell me though that she still wanted to know how niqabis tell each other apart! And how we know who is who! I do love her dearly, and boy do I have a lot of work to do! :-) Muneerah  [] [/i][/font][/color]

Re: one line answers of hijab?
Anonymous
12/10/02 at 10:07:15
[slm] "Everything worth getting is covered and hard to get to (diamonds, pearls, a good career, friends etc)  Wat can I say, I'm worth it!" ;-D [wlm]

Re: one line answers of hijab?
umair
12/10/02 at 13:59:42
[slm] Even though i'm a guy and all but i too get asked "Why do your women cover their heads?". well, my response to christians is to read the bible,1st Corinthians,Chapter 11,verse 5 and 6 which say's: [quote] 11:5  But every woman praying or prophesying with her head unveiled dishonors her head. For it is one and the same thing as if she were shaved. 11:6  For if a woman is not covered, let her also be shorn. But if it is shameful for a woman to be shorn or shaved, let her be covered. [/quote] Here is the link to an online bible site: [url]http://www.awitness.org/biblehtm/1co/1co11.htm[/url] Just go there and see for yourelf.

Re: one line answers of hijab?
Dawn
12/10/02 at 14:19:59
[quote author=umair link=board=sis;num=1036832987;start=15#27 date=12/10/02 at 13:59:42] [slm] Even though i'm a guy and all but i too get asked "Why do your women cover their heads?". well, my response to christians is to read the bible,1st Corinthians,Chapter 11,verse 5 and 6 ...[/quote] Just for further clarification, those verses refer to when a woman is praying or preaching, not to everyday 24/7 life.  As a matter of fact, pretty much the whole of chapters 10 and 11 are about governing behavior in church.  To really make your point (and to get them to think!!!!), you would have to ask why most women in churches don't cover their heads during prayer or why most Christian women don't cover their heads when they pray at home, or pray before a meal, etc.  THAT would be the real stumper. With Peace, Dawn
12/10/02 at 14:21:10
Dawn

Re: one line answers of hijab?
sofia
12/12/02 at 16:22:00
As-salaamu 'alaikum wa rahmatullah, I don't think I've ever given the "one-line" answer to this question. Actually, I guess that'd be my advice. Take the time to explain it, keeping some of these things in mind (mainly geared towards non-Muslims who ask, sincere or not. God help the Muslims who ask). The questionner should go away feeling that: 1) you agree with and are certain for the reasons for wearing hijaab (ex/ "I wear the scarf as a symbol of my faith, as a means of modesty, and to please God. I don't wear it because I was forced to by a man or my parents." If the questionner knows a bit about Islam and wants to know exactly where the command is found, you need to know the tafseer of 33:59 and 24:31. See below for some links); 2) you are at ease/peace with wearing the hijaab (ex/ "I used to be hot in the summertime when I didn't cover, but I don't notice it as much anymore. You'd be surprised how much easier it is to wear loose, cotton clothing that covers your skin, rather than exposing it to the sun in the summer." The response I once got to that was: "Oh, I always wondered about that! No wonder ppl wear caftans in the desert."); 3) and that still, you are a functional, intelligent person (ex/ "I'd rather be seen for my actions, not my hairstyle."). Be confident when answering this question, not defensive. And a sense of humor helps. The last time I was asked this question, I blabbed on and on until we were finally talking about skin cancer rates in different parts of the world. I wouldn't advocate that, but diverting the topic to basic principles of Islam can be a much better approach (One God, equality among ppl/gender/races, modesty, women's rights, etc), Allahu'Alim. Sometimes, no matter how difficult the person is, they really do just want to know why you believe what you do. So we better know the answer, iA! ----------------------- Women and Hijab in the Quran The First Verse: "And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze (from looking at forbidden things) and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what [must ordinarily] appear thereof; that they should draw their KHUMUR (veils) over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands' fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O you Believers! Turn all together towards Allah, that you may attain Bliss." Quran 24:31 Ibn Katheer says that "Khumur" is the plural of "Khimaar", which is that which covers the head and has often been called the "veil". Saeed bin Jabeer said that "to draw" means "to tie" the covering, and that the Khimaar should completely cover the neck and the chest so that no part of them should be visible. Concerning this verse A'ishah (may Allah be pleased with her) said: "May Allah have mercy on the Muhajir women. When Allah (swt) revealed (...that they should draw their Khumur over their bosoms...) (Quran 24:31), they tore their wrappers and covered their heads and faces with them." (Narrated by Bukhari) Safiyyah bint Shaybah said: "When we were with A'isha (may Allah be pleased with her), we mentioned the women of Quraysh and their virtues. A'isha said, 'The women of Quraysh are good, but by Allah (swt) I have never seen any better or more strict in their adherence to the Book of Allah (swt) than the women of the Ansar. When Surat al-Nur was revealed - (...that they should draw their veils over their bosoms...) - their menfolk went to them and recited to them the words that Allah (swt) had revealed. Each man recited it to his wife, his daughter, his sister and other family relatives. Every woman among them got up, took her decorated wrapper, and wrapped herself up in it out of faith and belief in what Allah (swt) had revealed. They appeared behind the Messenger of Allah (saas), wrapped up, as if there were crows on their heads." (See Fath al-Bari Sharh Sahih Bukhari) In his Tafseer Imam Al-Qurtubi says: "Women in those days used to cover their heads with the Khimaar, throwing its ends upon their backs. This left the neck and the upper part of the chest bare, along with the ears, in the manner of the Christians. Then Allah commanded them to cover those parts with the Khimaar." Imam Ibn Kathir says: "'Draw their Khumur to cover their bosoms' means that they should wear the Khimaar in such a way that they cover their chests so that they will be different from the women of the jahiliyyah who did not do that but would pass in front of men with their chests uncovered and with their necks, forelocks, hair and earrings uncovered." The Second Verse: "O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their JALABEEB (cloaks) all over thier bodies. That will be better, that they should be known (as free, respectable women) so as not to be annoyed. And Allah is Ever Oft­Forgiving, Most Merciful." Quran 33:59 The arabic word here is "Jalabeeb", plural of "Jilbaab". The Jilbaab is the loose outer garment that covers all a woman's body. It is thick and opaque and covers the clothing under it and the woman's form. The definitive dictionary of classical Arabic, Lisan al-Arab by Ibn al-Mandhur, provides the following definition: "The Jilbaab is the outergarment, mantle, or cloak. It is derived from the word tajalbaba, which means to clothe. Jilbaab is the outer sheet or covering which a woman wraps around her on top of her garments to cover herself from head to toe. It hides her body completely." (Lisan al-Arab, volume 7, page 273) Narrated Umm Salama, Umm al-Mu'minin: "When the verse, 'That they should draw their Jalabeeb close around them' was revealed, the women of Ansar came out as if they had crows over their heads by wearing Jalabeeb." (Sunan Abu Dawud Book 32 #4090) Narrated Umm Atiyya: "We were ordered to bring out our menstruating women and screened women to the religious gatherings and invocation of the Muslims on the two Eid festivals. These menstruating women were to keep away from the musalla. A woman asked, 'O Messenger of Allah! What about one who does not have a Jilbaab?' He said, 'Let her borrow the Jilbaab of her companion.'" (Sahih Bukhari Book 8 #347) Al-Haafidh Ibn Katheer mentions in his famous Tafseer that an outer garment is in effect the "Rida'a" (a large piece of cloth; much larger than the ladies' usual headpiece). This is the view of the Companion Ibn Mas'ood and a number of Taa'been scholars like Al-Hasan Al-Basri, Qataadah, Ibraheem An-Nakha'I, Ata'a and others. In fact, the purpose of the outer garment is to better cover the women's regular dress. Imam Al-Qurtubi sites in his Tafseer that the Jilbaab is: "a cloth which covers the entire body...Ibn 'Abbaas and 'Ubaidah As-Salmaani sais that it is to be fully wrapped around the women's body, so that nothing appears but one eye with which she can see." "The believers, men and women, are Auliya (helpers, supporter, friends, protectors) of one another. They enjoin Al-Maruf (i.e. Islamic Monotheism and all that Islam orders one to do) and forbid Al-Munkar (i.e. polytheism and disbelief of all kinds and all that Islam has forbidden); they perform As-Salat (prayer) and give the Zakat (charity) and obey Allah and His Messenger. Allah will have His Mercy on them. Surely Allah is All-Mighty, all-Wise. Allah has promised to the believers - men and women - Gardens under which rivers flow to dwell therein forever, and beautiful mansions in Gardens of Adn (Eden Paradise), But the greatest bliss is the Good Pleasure of Allah. That is the supreme success." Quran 9:71-72 http://members.tripod.com/oum_abdulaziz/women.htm http://www.angelfire.com/me4/islaam/Hijab1.html http://www.quraan.com/Sisters/RequirementsOfWomensHijab.asp
NS
10/01/03 at 11:03:06
sofia

Re: one line answers of hijab?
Anonymous
12/16/02 at 18:40:02
In reading yours and others postings I feel a certain sadness for the ways in which religion separates us.  It always involves "believers" and "nonbelievers" and never the two shall meet.  Rather than look for all the similarities we possess as we struggle to live and grow on the same planet, we are hyper-sensitized to tiny differences of opinion. For example, have you ever been to another country and connected with someone from another culture? (I'm sure you have)  Nothing is so satisfying as breaking stereotypes and getting through cultural differences to realize that we're all just human, no matter what our nationality, race or religion.  What is even more satisfying is meeting someone who has negative ideas about your group and helping to change their minds.  (Like being an American, travelling in Europe and showing people we're not all loud, obnoxious, ignorant and entitled people like the ones on Jerry Springer!) True religion or faith in a supreme being, in my opinion, should make us more humble and accepting of each other, but for some reason it does not.  For some reason it splinters us into groups - the haves and the have-nots of faith.  I had a long involvement with religion (Christianity) in my life which I have come away from in recent years.  In looking at the viewpoints I was exposed to in many religions it seems three things are usually true: 1.  Everyone seems to think they are the lucky ones who've stumbled onto the only "right" way to follow God.  They know him/her, they know what he/she likes and dislikes, they are dedicated and serious about pleasing him/her (more so than others), they've got a great place reserved in heaven and people who disagree are sadly, but definitely going to hell or some other highly unpleasant location. 2. Everyone has specific books, texts, teachers and prophets they quote, which, in their mind, prove their beliefs and justify their most-favored status.   They will argue to their death about the perceived inconsistencies others point out in these references, insisting it is the inspired word of god which can be proved in all sorts of mystical ways.  (Ask a Mormon about the book of mormon - you may be surprised how similar their defense of it as the best resourse can be). 3. When the world doesn't understand them and embrace their ideas, it's not because they've splintered into some extreme little group, it's because the world is selfish, lazy, sinful, evil, and just refuses to see what is clearly so obvious to them.  They are being persecuted.  When people get frustrated with their circular arguments in a discussion, they must be 'enraged' because they somehow know the other is right and are fighting it - it couldn't be becaus the discussion is going owhere.  Therefore the fundamentalist must go into the world and teach others about their belief system, even people who seem pretty happy the way they are.   These belief systems, and ways of explaining faith in a world which does not necessarily agree, are common to all sorts of fundamentalism - be it Muslim, many forms of Christianity - Protestants and Catholics, Judiaism, etc.   I find that the more a person tries to follow a text from another century, the more they have to explain away why things aren't like that anymore.  Often time "Satan" is behind it all.  That's a good catch-all explanation because no one can disprove it.  There could be an evil little being controlling the many independent puppets of the world - it would sure explain a lot... In fundamentalist thinking it's all or nothing.  People who sort of believe but don't outwardly display it the way a fundamentalist thinks they should are considered horrible and useless to the faith.  They are "lukewarm" etc.   If they conform too much to society they are the fundmentalists enemy, of sorts.  They are almost worse than the nonbeliever, because they've been shown the right way but have rejected it. The best solution I have found is to retain faith but to reject fundamentalism.  It is fundamentalism which usually draws all the rejection and noise, not faith - not that it's about acceptance either.  I am for being an individual.  Why do we insist on making God as small as our own experiences?  Why do we shove him into our own cultural expectations?   Why do we try to corner the market on spirituality, then exclude others on the basis of our whims?  For every touching conversion story out there you could probably find a de-conversion story which is just as compelling if you know where to look. Here in the US we are quite familiar with fundamentalism - we were founded by the Puritans - people who were so into their beliefs that no one else wanted them around.  They, along with Europeans at the time, thought there were witches among them and burned the suspects.  In British history there was a long run of Protestant and Catholic leaders who would each take over then kill the opposition.  The inquisition was yet another example of people, convinced they were right trying to "rid the world of evil."  Hitler thought it was the Jews fault.  Racists think it's the minorities fault.  Terrorists think it's the West's fault.  Pro-life extremists think that anything is justified in stopping an abortion.   It goes on and on - the world is full of people who know it all and want to force their knowledge on others, sometimes in violent ways.  In the words of Rodney King: "why can't we all just get along?" In speaking of the veil you write of many things to protect women from in this world - rape, violence, lust, etc.  There are many, many dangers in this world - one of which is religious extremism.  That's the one danger fundamentalist religions never choose to talk about.  They will instead go on and on about people who aren't as extreme, or people who are extreme in the opposite way.  One can be profoundly religious in a non-fanatical way. I studied literature and psychology in college - similar to the majors you listed.  I have been deeply involved in religion, similar to you.  I have had an interest in gender relations, similar to you.  We have come to different conclusions, however, we have been on a very similar path.  I am western, of a different religion and would call myself a feminist, yet we are not that different.   Fundamentalists don't like feminists on this side of the pond either.  Anything which questions the rigidity of sex roles is not trusted.  Yet even "modern" women don't think feminism is the supreme truth.  It is merely an evolving solution to earlier problem.  It has solved some problems and has created others.  Some use it to blame socieites problems on just as religion is often used.   Cosmopolitan magazine is not the answer.  Miniskirts are not the answer.  Eating disorders are not the answer.  Restricted forms of dress are not the answer.  Life is difficult and not for the faint of heart.  It involves making difficult choices, keeping yourself safe, constant learning and growth, not conforming at times, yet conforming at other times.  All of us have had "experts" tell us how to best run our lives - parental, religious or otherwise.  Our true freedom lies in our ability to reject their well-meaning advice, no matter how authoritarian and respected, and to adapt to the world we live in.  The truth is not in the example of the west, the truth is in being free to find out.
12/17/02 at 22:27:28
Kathy

Re: one line answers of hijab?
zomorrud
12/17/02 at 08:39:42
[color=Blue]Anonymous, You obviously have many issues with Islam, and possibly other religions.  Your response to the question raised by one poster of "how to provide brief clear answers to strangers that ask Muslim women about hijab" is really extrapolative and very presumptuos.   But you have many concerns, and I can sense the genuineness embedded therein.  I doubt, however, that you'd be interested in a debate-type dialogue to correct some of the misconceptions about Islam/muslims in general, especially the notion that following a scripture that is centuries old is not suitable for "our times". Let me just clarify that your definition of "fundamentalism" is a very negative one and is considered offensive and not true to practising muslims.  This term, has probably been coined by newspaper columnists, to vilify "practising muslims" (or practising religionists) who have the gall to adhere to their beliefs.  But I am delving into debatative (?) type of dialogue ... Sufficing to state is that Islam (and please go back to the references) is a religion that is very encompassing and inclusive.  Its message is to submit to one God in every aspect of life. All divine religions have this message.   There are many de-conversion stories, you are right.   But don't look at the glass half empty.    Try to find out the truth about Islam for yourself.  Don't shut all doors.  Perhaps you will find reading about the history of Muslim Civilization helpful in removimg some of the disillusions you might have. And about feminism - I suggest a recent book by Dr. Kathy Bullok called "Rethinking Muslim Women and the Veil". (http://www.onlineislamicstore.com/b7116.html). Islamic feminism is alive and well.   Insha'Allah (God willing) you are not offended by anything I wrote.  I realize that this type of communication is very flat and can be easily misinterpreted.  I was merely responding, randomly mind you, to some aspects of your post with the intent of clarifying.   Peace z.[/color]
12/17/02 at 08:41:07
zomorrud

Re: one line answers of hijab?
sofia
12/18/02 at 14:53:40
Peace, Anonymous Hmmnnn...I've seen this problem a lot, usually faced and argued by people who have rejected a particular aspect of their faith. Sorry if religious issues (ie, the headscarf, etc) have a divisive connotation for you. Actually, it has the opposite connotation for others. Anyhow, I would surely have the same arguments as you had I come from a similar background/prior beliefs. But if it's not religion, other aspects of mankind would divide us. In fact, they already do. I'm not condoning them, just find it hard to just put the blame on religion (which I'm not accusing you of doing, either). "And had your Lord willed, He could surely have made mankind into one ummah (nation, community, religion), but they will not cease to disagree." (Qur'aan 11:118). Just wanted to send a quick note as to how Muslims view other religions (by it's very nature, Islam is a multi-cultural faith. Visit your local, large masjid, and you'll see what I mean): -Muslims reject the idea that one should follow the path of their parents (ie, blind faith), unless it's on the path of truth. Either way, Islam is not a cult, and even if one's parents are not Muslim, they should still be obeyed/respected, as long as they don't ask their child to do something against God's teachings. -Islam does not teach Muslims to reject non-Muslims. But we do reject any other faith and/or wrong actions (if we actually follow/know our religion). There is no compulsion into our religion, so likewise, there should be no compulsion into any other ("To you be your faith, and to me be mine." Qur'aan 109:6). Muslims do an extremely bad job of it, but our role is only to convey the message of Islam, not to force it down anyone's throat ("You are only a warner for those who fear it." Qur'aan 79:45). -We believe that Islam is simply the same message sent throughout the history of mankind, through various, righteous messengers/Prophets. The last one being, Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). However, we do not prefer one prophet or another (Laa nufarriqoobayna aHadinmin roosulih/"We make no distinction between His messengers." Qur'aan 2:285). -We also believe what is written in the Qur'aan, sort of like the newest edition of The Book. We accept other revelations (the Torah, Bible, Psalms). However, one of the reasons Islam was revealed is because these older versions of the same truth were tainted and corrupted by some of its followers (not by its original Prophets, and pious predecessors). And believe me, the Qur'aan would have had the same problem as other Books, had it not been protected by God. That's probably the biggest miracle of this religion; that we haven't been able to corrupt it in over 1,400 years ("Verily, it is We who have sent down the Reminder/Qur'aan, and surely We will guard it." Qur'aan 15:9). As you and I both know, there are enough Muslims bent on power/$ and not fully adhering to their faith that this would have happened by now, had it not been guarded. However, the same exact Qur'aan (there's only one version) is recited today (from the US to Saudi to China, etc), as was recited 1,400 years ago. If anything has changed in 1,400 years (regarding how Islam is practiced), the Qur'aan has not. -Muslims reject the idea that just by being Muslim (alone), we have guaranteed ourselves a place in Paradise. That's why it's rare for you to hear a Muslim widow explain to her child that his father is in heaven (unless he's clearly a martyr, and even then, actions are based on intentions, which only God knows). The closest companions to Prophet Muhammad (s) used to weep over their sins and fear the Day of Judgement, which we also do not deny. Btw - what's your definition of a "fundamentalist"? Because I'm pretty sure that any Muslim who actually uses that in their vocabulary (most don't, in regards to Islam), has a different definition. Allahu'Alim/God knows best.
NS
12/18/02 at 18:33:06
sofia

Re: one line answers of hijab?
Anonymous
12/19/02 at 05:30:38
Hi No I'm not offended at all.  In mentioning the word "fundamentalism" I am referring more to my own experience than to Islam.  We use the term in this country to describe people who take the bible literally and are very strict in their interpretations of it's meaning (as opposed to someone who may read the same book but not necessarily assume it should be adhered to word for word).  I know the term is frequently used to describe terrorists, "bible-thumpers" and other extremists, but that was not how I meant it.  I use the term broadly to describe those who take this approach toward any religious book - the bible, the koran, the torah, etc. I believe in God, and think that there is one God, interpreted in many different ways across cultures.  You may call him Allah, I may call him Father, another group may call him something else.  We may have different ideas about what offends this God, and different ideas on how to remedy it.  My belief and my hope is that God is bigger than all of us, and more of an objective adult than we are.  We judge and condemn each other for our differences, but any omniscient, divine being would be able to understand us all - our strengths, our weaknesses and everything in between. I don't know if I have any issues with Islam, I don't think I do, but you probably think differently!  I do have issues with terrorists, but I am aware that they are not representative of Islam.  I do believe true Islam is about peace - just as any true religion should be.  I do have some issues with the strict interpretation of any religion: Islam, Christianity, Judaism, etc.  Since none of us can see God or talk to him face to face - it's all taken on faith in other people's advice.  So why not hold that faith at arms length - keep it in your grasp, as it is important, but see the good in all. At one time when I was especially religious I didn't drink, dance, swear - there was even a time when I didn't wear makeup or jewelry.  I dressed conservatively.  I later went through a period of time when I went to the opposite extreme.  I believe the way to live lies somewhere in the middle: taste some of life but remember what's truly important.   Because I went through this era in my life I naively think I can relate to the idea of wearing a veil (which I am sure I probably can't) But let me say this: I do respect someone who would go up against society for what they believe in.  Conformity is the rule for any social group and going against the norm is both difficult and intriging.  I do believe that women wear the veil for their own reasons, to please God, and are not mererly in submission to men.  From reading up on this it appears one justification is that men, despite their many other strengths,  have a problem with lust and with seeing women as sex objects.   I would agree. One question, why are men not being held responsible for their own thoughts?  Why is it a woman's responsibility to keep a man's mind pure - as if she could - by not being a visual cue reminding him of his baser side?  With some men a veil wouldn't help, they would be thinking the same thoughts regardless. I am not saying the west has the answers, I agree we struggle with many of the things listed in the email debates / poems: rape, domestic violence - both of which are illegal, but which many men get away with when a woman refuses to press charges.  Yes, there are many men out there waiting to use women and throw them away, there are also many men who want relationships, love and children.  There are ways to figure out which is which, but they also involve the wisdom that comes with age.  The social upheaval we have had in the last 50 years is in response to our own questioning of gender roles.  Neither gender necessarily knows where they fit at times, but we still consider it better.  It is better because rape and domestic violence have existed for centuries but now they are clearly identified as wrong, punishable by legal means. Both domestic violence and even marital rape are identified as crimes.   Women are told not to put up with this treatment under any circumstances. Their own safety is considered more important than the social contract of marriage.  Even in our religious cultures, no one would say "God wants you to stay married" in that situation anymore - though there was a time when that would have been said. This all came about because women had the status to say "no more" and to be listened to.  Many religious groups didn't want to give up the old ways either, so many women just left the churches.  Many fundamentalist Christian groups tell women to "submit" to their husbands - they say a woman can't teach men in church - even though a woman can teach at a university.  How crazy is that when a woman can't teach about her religion - which is supposed to be her main priority - but can teach about nuclear physics, etc.  For some reason religions are very strict about what a woman can and can't do, yet are not so strict when it comes to men.  They may have some restrictions, but they always seem to be placed there to pacify women who question the difference in expectations.  Oh yes, a man can beat his wife in extreme situations, but it is because he is trying to keep his family in the service of God (It hurts him more than it hurts you...) This wasn't written on this site - it was on another site I went to - through some Islamic search engine which began with an H.   Some believe a woman is considered unclean during menstruation.  Menstruation is a beautiful, though annoying, bodily process given by God.  It is no more unclean than any other bodily process.  Yet because ancient man didn't understand it, God must not either.  This is one of many reasons why I say a little religion is good - too much is detrimental. I am rambling again, and honestly not trying to offend, although I probably do.  Sorry the post is so long as well.

Re: one line answers of hijab?
sofia
12/19/02 at 11:00:14
Peace, again, anonymous - I'm glad you brought up the excellent point of moderation. Despite our actions, it may surprise people to know that Islam was taught by Prophet Muhammad (s) as the "middle path." Extremism was/is actually shunned. Knowing the rights of God and the rights of His Creation are the basis of any divine religion. Unfortunately, sometimes we forget one or the other (which is often times what ignites "fundamentalism." God knows best). If you get a chance, please read this short article, it explains the moderation bit, in the context of Islam, a lot better than I would: http://islamicsociety.ca/IslamPath.htm Also, you mentioned menstruation. This has come up before; someone asked about the Islamic viewpoint of menstruating women (ie, why can't they pray, etc). I've modified my answer to that question only slightly below. ----------------------- Actually, women *can* pray during this or just about any time. While the physical act of prayer is characteristic of and of paramount importance in Islam, one can be rewarded for more than just the physical prayer; i.e., there are forms of 'ibaadah other than this that a woman can participate in, like dhikr (literally, remembrance, specifically of God, such as reciting some of His virtues or calling on one of His names), supplications, study circles, and according to some scholars, reading and memorizing the Qur'aan.   The only thing she is free from doing is the physical action of praying. I'm sure we've all met someone who goes through a pretty rough time during that time of month. I know of some women who literally are in the fetal position for days due to painful menstruations, with a variety of concomitant conditions. How could she be forced to pray and/or possibly be punished if she's barely mobile during this time? (Not praying while physically/mentally being able to do so without any valid excuse carries a pretty severe punishment for Muslims, if not made up, according to Islamic teachings). Clearly, not within the spirit of Islam. It's actually a mercy from God not to oblige every woman from carrying out the physical aspects of prayer while menstruating   A woman is not barred from the spiritual aspect of 'ibaadah/worship at any time, nor is she isolated from the community during that time of the month (unlike orthodox Judaism, you *can* eat with a woman who is menstruating and/or eat of her food). The Prophet (s) did not stay away from his wives while they were menstruating (except intimately), and even recited the Qur'aan while laying his head on A'ishah's lap. Once, when a group of Muslims along with the Prophet (s) had journeyed to Mecca to make the pilgrimage, and were pretty close to reaching the site, A'ishah realized she was menstruating and began to cry. The Prophet(s) asked her what was wrong, and when she told him, he let her know that this was something all the women from the time of Adam were to go through (ie, it's not a negative thing at all!), and she could carry out all of the rituals, except the Tawaf (physically walking/running around the Ka'abah; again, this shows the mercy in not having to do all the physically strenuous parts while menstruating. for some women, this is needed), and even ordered her brother to take her personally so she wouldn't feel left out.   More importantly, a woman's physical prayer, or any other form of 'ibaadah is rewarded in the exact same way/by the same measure of a man.
NS
12/19/02 at 15:57:24
sofia

Re: one line answers of hijab?
Halima
12/20/02 at 03:16:29
Well, there is curiosity, genuine interest about hijab, head scarf or khamar (khimar).  And there is also outmost disdain too. Curiosity:  Most people who have asked me about it (I work in a multicultural organization), they are amazed by the different sytles in which I wear a head scarf.  Some will even ask me to demonstrate it for them.  I take no offense here because they want to know and try to do the same. Genuine interest:  There are those who genuinely interested and want to know the reason for a hijab, head scarf or khamar/khimar.  So, here, I explain that it is a religious obligation and why it is so.  And I see them digesting this and nodding their heads as if something has finely dawned on them. Whether they will ever cover their hair or not is not up to me. Outmost disdain: These people have no respect for a head cover whatever type it is.  Most of them wonder why I cover my hair especially since I have nice soft hair (their words exactly).  No matter how I explain this, they simply don't want to know or understand.  But this does not bother me in the least because it is only Allah who can truly show one the right path.  I have done my duty by expalining without taking offense again. I also live in a country where hijab, head scarf, khamar or khimar is not weird.  In fact, some christians here wear head scarf most of the time. I was in Holland in August 2002.  We were resting at bench by the road side (my sister was pregnant).  She was wearing a hijab with a full dress and I was wearing an Indian outfit with a head scarf.  A white middle aged  Hollandese lady who was passing by stopped and talked to us.  She was taken by our outfits and head covers and she called them beautiful.  She hersef was wearing a short and tank top!  And yet, she called our mode of dress beautiful!!! Allah knows best. Halima

Re: one line answers of hijab?
UmmZaid
12/20/02 at 23:59:03
>>From reading up on this it appears one justification is that men, despite their many other strengths,  have a problem with lust and with seeing women as sex objects.   I would agree. One question, why are men not being held responsible for their own  thoughts?<< They are.  Everyone is responsible for his or herself.  If you have read about this issue in the Qur'an, you would see that Allah (God) *first* addresses the MEN in regards to modesty (24:30), telling them to lower their gaze and protect their modesty.  However, in Islam, our responsibility is to God and to society. We are each called upon to do our part to protect society from the things Islam says are harmful to society.  Fornication (adultery, pre-marital sex) is one of those things. So women and men each have a part to play in protecting *each other* from this.  One of women's responsibilities includes covering the hair, but it would be wrong to assume that b/c men are not required to cover their head that there is no male dress code.  It's just different, that's all.   >>Some believe a woman is considered unclean during menstruation.  Menstruation is a  beautiful, though annoying, bodily process given by God.  It is no more unclean than any other  bodily process.  Yet because ancient man didn't understand it, God must not either.  This  is one of many reasons why I say a little religion is good - too much is detrimental.<< Well, that may be your opinion, but ... first, don't confuse Islam's stance on menses with the stance of Orthodox Judaism or any other religion.  A woman is not "unclean" or touched by evil or anything else in  menses. She is *ritually impure* when it comes to performing the ritual prayer and a few other things.  However, the woman herself is not "unclean." Ritually purity or impurity does not imply the purity or impurity of the person as a human being.  Men can also be in states of ritual impurity, btw.  She stays in the same bed as her husband, they can hold hands (even be intimate, although intercourse is forbidden), she can do other types of prayers (as someone else posted), teach religious classes, etc.  As Muslims, we would say that perhaps *we* are the ones who don't fully understand menstruation.  It could be that someday we will discover something new about menstruation, and gain some knowledge that we don't currently possess (it's happened before ;) )We would also say that it is a Mercy for us from God that we are not required to fast or make ritual prayers in this time... b/c for many women such actions would be very difficult.

Re: one line answers of hijab?
Anonymous
12/21/02 at 05:42:11
Wow - I'd really have to say I agree with most of that "middle road" article link you suggested.  Very well written and wise.  Interesting that this approach is never discussed in the media. Really, the only parts I disagreed with were related to how to worship and some things about the prophets - I'm guessing it was referring to Jesus when it said all were only human - but these are things which are specific to my religion of upbringing. In reading earlier email debates, I do think we sometimes confuse certain aspects of Middle Eastern culture with Islamic teaching.  I sense the following is not your belief, but could you explain to me why women are not allowed to drive in Saudi Arabia (at least during the gulf war) and are, I believe, legally required to cover themselves?  I am referring to the recent stories of American military women who were being required to cover themselves (by our military officials) when stationed in Saudi Arabia - which have since been overturned.  I also recently read a story where a group of Iranian women were trying to overturn the "death by stoning" law for adultery in their country. There are also the stories of the African stonings as well. We have certainly heard of the excesses of the Taliban - I have been to the rawa website, among others, which explained how women were forbidden from education and from travelling alone and not being covered - extremists, obviously.  My guess is that you do not agree with these excesses, but is there some kind of organized movement within Islam to address these things? There are excesses in other world religions - such as the recent sexual abuse scandals in the American Catholic church.  For years it was covered up, denied and forgotten.  Now due to the efforts of victims' attornies it is being addressed. We value separation of church and state in this country largely due to the atrocities our forefathers saw committed in the name of religion in Europe.  Interestingly, the state is now judging the church instead of how it was in the middle ages when the state was the church. This is out of necessity - I cannot even imagine what sexual abuse by a priest must do to a young boy's faith in God.  However, the church still has further to go in most people's minds.  Most Americans think the enforced rule of celibacy doesn't help matters much, although it does not automatically convert one to being a pedophile.  There were early church fathers who were very anti-women, but their ideas are generally not accepted anymore.  (I've seen some of them quoted in defense of Islam's view of women on some websites, but it would be outdated to assume anyone is going by those opinions anymore)  However, the Catholic church still has a long way to go to give women the respect they deserve as well. In response to the Qu'aran being kept pure, I can say that fundamentalist Christians say the same about the bible.  It is called the "inspired" word of God, and despite various glaring inconsistencies and descriptions of horribly violent, archaic events, it is held up as God's miraculous gift to humanity, much like your description of the Qu'aran.  It is called "infallible."  Catholics call the pope "infallible."  Did I not read a description of the prophet Muhammed being described as "infallible" on the website you sent me to? - maybe another article on the same site.  Is anyone but God really infallible?  Isn't it time we rolled up our sleeves and took a step back from religion in general, and as humans sort out the good and the bad in all of the world's religions - keeping what is good and throwing out the rest? When we look back to these prophets/thinkers from the past we always attribute divine-like qualities to them, even if that is not our belief or intent.   They were somehow above making the same mistakes we would make in their place, but did we really know them?  Does reading an ancient text on someone's religious ideals really allow us to know them well enough to call them infallible - or is that what we need to believe to justify our involvement?   Again, it is not God I have a problem with, but man's many limiting beliefs about him. Peace to you as well.

Re: one line answers of hijab?
Kathy
12/21/02 at 21:06:12
[quote author=Anonymous link=board=sis;num=1036832987;start=30#37 date=12/21/02 at 05:42:11]could you explain to me why women are not allowed to drive in Saudi Arabia (at least during the gulf war) and are, I believe, legally required to cover themselves?  I am referring to the recent stories of American military women who were being required to cover themselves (by our military officials) when stationed in Saudi Arabia[/quote] I am responding just so that you know I am reading your posts. You need to check the Saudia goverment and American military. This is an Islamic web site and these issues are not Islamically based. [quote]...where a group of Iranian women were trying to overturn the "death by stoning" law for adultery in their country. [/quote] Death by stoning is a Islamic law that is followed after many conditions are met. The biggest hurdle is that the community must be led and goverened by Shariah law. Needless to say it is almost impossible, Islamically, for this punishment to be carried out. [quote] I have been to the rawa website, among others, which explained how women were  forbidden from education...[/quote] Again, this is cultural and not Islamic. [quote]but is there some kind of  organized movement within Islam to address these things?[/quote] Really, Islam does not need an 'organized movement'- as the rules and policies of Islam protect the women and all of her rights. There are many, many groups out there educating the women, so they know their rights. unfortunately too many of the societies are so submersed in their cultrual laws- the barriers are hard to break through. [quote]Did I not read a description of the prophet Muhammed being described as "infallible" on the website you sent me to? - [/quote] Be careful of what you read on the web. Not all is true. What is the person's meaning of infallible?  There is actually a sura in the Qu'ran called "He Frowned. Albasa:80" Allah swt tells us about a time the Prophet [saw] did not help a man asking for his help. Allah swt actually "corrects" Prophet Muhammad [saw]. [quote]....took a step back from religion in general, and as humans sort out the good and the bad in all of the world's religions - keeping what is good and throwing out the rest?[/quote] Ah... this is called censorship. How comfortable are you with it? Who decides what to keep and what to throw out? There are many things that I now realize, in my middle age, that I now know was wrong, that in my youth was pure folly. [quote]When we look back to these prophets/thinkers from the past we always attribute divine-like qualities to them, even if that is not our belief or intent.  [/quote] Outha Billahi Mina shayton Regime. As a Muslim, who only believes in Allah swt, those words of yours makes me shudder.  Please do not use the word 'we' in that sentance. [quote]Again, it is not God I have a problem with, but man's many limiting beliefs about him. [/quote] Yep, you are right. There is no way man could ever encompass the atributes and Mercy of Allah swt.
12/21/02 at 21:14:39
Kathy

Re: one line answers of hijab?
sofia
12/23/02 at 12:33:31
[quote]Wow - I'd really have to say I agree with most of that "middle road" article link you suggested. Very well written and wise. Interesting that this approach is never discussed in the media. Really, the only parts I disagreed with were related to how to worship and some things about the prophets - I'm guessing it was referring to Jesus when it said all were only human - but these are things which are specific to my religion of upbringing. [/quote] Glad it made sense. Actually, that section you mentioned is aimed at all prophets - from Adam all the way down the line to Muhammad, peace be upon them all. The testification of Muslims (said when one comes into Islaam), "I testify that there is no God but God, and that Muhammad is His messenger," is often misunderstood to mean that Muhammad (peace be upon him) has some sort of "partnership" with God. Far from it, Muslims reject this, as we believe that God has no partners or helpers. One way to look at it is that Muhammad (s) is only a messenger. Over and over again, he told his followers, up until he died, that they should not deify him or put him up on any pedastal like the Christians did to Jesus (the deification of Jesus, peace be upon him, came about after he left this earth, not during his lifetime). He was frightened of this, for himself and for his followers. In any case, another way to look at the testification is to accept Muhammad as the seal of the Prophets, the one that was described in the earlier books (to come after Jesus). He didn't come with a new message. God is One, has always been One, and will always be One. [quote]In reading earlier email debates, I do think we sometimes confuse certain aspects of Middle Eastern culture with Islamic teaching. I sense the following is not your belief, but could you explain to me why women are not allowed to drive in Saudi Arabia (at least during the gulf war) and are, I believe, legally required to cover themselves? I am referring to the recent stories of American military women who were being required to cover themselves (by our military officials) when stationed in Saudi Arabia - which have since been overturned. I also recently read a story where a group of Iranian women were trying to overturn the "death by stoning" law for adultery in their country. There are also the stories of the African stonings as well. We have certainly heard of the excesses of the Taliban - I have been to the rawa website, among others, which explained how women were forbidden from education and from travelling alone and not being covered - extremists, obviously. My guess is that you do not agree with these excesses, but is there some kind of organized movement within Islam to address these things? [/quote] As sister Kathy mentioned, these pertain mostly to cultural beliefs. The driving issue in S.A. is not really an Islamic injunction, nor do I think they call it that. But being S.A., I guess it's easy to assume that everything they do is symbolic/in parallel with Islamic teachings. Btw--Even before the Taliban were taken out of power, there were female schools. Not as many as male schools, unfortunately. I once heard, not sure if it's true, that there are more female PhDs in some Muslim countries (ex/ Pakistan) than there are in the US. God knows best. Point being, education is incumbent for every Muslim, male or female. Unfortunately, that right is not always correctly protected/promoted by man. The Islamic injunctions of punishment pertaining to adultery, etc. are true and within our text and the Old and New Testaments. However, how these injuctions are understood/implemented is sometimes where trouble comes in. I do not know the lawbooks in any of the countries or details of the cases mentioned, so I don't know what the issue is there (I don't count tv/radio), nor am I a scholar on Islaamic law.  The hudood laws (specific injunctions for specific crimes like adultery, brigandry, murder, theft, etc) pertain to addressing law and order in a society, for the good of the society, not to oppress or to "keep the masses down." Yes, there is a system of law and court, etc in states ruled by theological law (laws made by God), just as there are in secular states (where laws are made by man). There is no vigilantism in Islaam, and every accused person has the right to defend themselves if they are wrongly accused. As mentioned, the system of evidences/witnesses in Islamic law is so stringent, that it'd be pretty tough to bring anyone in for the punishment for adultery (if the court system is truly based on Islamic law); the more serious the crime/punishment, the more difficult it is to prove the case, since it's better to err on forgiving than to punish the wrong person. The Prophet (s) told his followers to decide amongst themselves/forgive one another before taking a case to him, because if he had all of the evidence required, it would be incumbent upon him to impose the ruling. There were few cases brought to him during his lifetime. Again, just as there are laws made by men in secular states, there are laws made by God in theological states. The main issue is correctly identifying what is from God and what is from man, and establishing these laws correctly, as such (ie, big responsibility, not to be taken lightly, if we say a law is from God). [quote]In response to the Qu'aran being kept pure, I can say that fundamentalist Christians say the same about the bible. It is called the "inspired" word of God, and despite various glaring inconsistencies and descriptions of horribly violent, archaic events, it is held up as God's miraculous gift to humanity, much like your description of the Qu'aran. It is called "infallible." Catholics call the pope "infallible." Did I not read a description of the prophet Muhammed being described as "infallible" on the website you sent me to? [/quote] Is the Bible you have today, the same version that other Christians have in other parts of the world (ie, is there one version, or many? i don't mean translations here)? Is it the same Bible that the followers of Jesus had, peace be upon him? Of course not, it wasn't written until x years after his death (can't recall how many years now), mainly via the teachings of Paul, a man who did not even meet Jesus (pbuh). I understand how it's easy to say that a book is "infallible," but it has to be backed up in order for it to be true. My point was not that Muslims say that the Qur'aan is protected, but that it's an injunction by God; ie, it's been proven to be true. About the "infallibility" of the Prophets, pls see my previous post about this. http://www.jannah.org/cgi-bin/madina/YaBB.pl?board=kabob;action=display;num=1040190018 [quote]Again, it is not God I have a problem with, but man's many limiting beliefs about him.[/quote] Couldn't agree with you more there. God/His teachings are bigger than us/our limited intellect (which, by its nature, limits Him). It's out of His mercy that He helps us understand. Allahu'Alim, God knows best. Peace, Sofia
NS
12/23/02 at 12:52:22
sofia

Re: one line answers of hijab?
Sabr
12/23/02 at 13:14:46
[slm] WEll i had a lil experience yesterday at a walima where a non muslim ( a teenage gurl -very scantly dressed) asked about a sis wearing a niqab-(she asked in  a condescending way) Her Quest -" y does she wear that ..u can't even c her eyes.."!!! My reply " Because she is BEAUTIFUL and she does not want anyone to lust at her  and harass her " Thought was  good reply  ;D [wlm]
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