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Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| It's long, but pls help. I really need help. |
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| murnisah |
| 11/10/02 at 10:50:37 |
| Hi, :) I have great interest in islam, and am considering of embracing islam. But I still do have some doubts? Can someone help me please. My questions are never to invoke or humiliate Islam or muslims, but these are the sincere doubts of a 22 years old lady. :-* I am in americanize - asia, so I see alot of muslims...some of the occurance really confused me, but some really makes me respect them. My questions are: 1. What does this line in Chapter two of the Quran means: "When you meet someone who disbelieve, then smite their necks...." It's really scary. What does this line really means? ??? 2. Some verses seems to indicate that a slave/captive woman can be "conducted" by her master even without him marrying her. (I'm sorry I left the Quran at my office, so I can't quote the actual verses. But I'm sure you know which lines I meant.) Why is this so?I'm sorry but I feel it's like rape. :o 3. I understand that muslim men are allowed to marry four wives. I can rationale this if the number of women far outbeat the number of men. But apparently, most men (if not all) abuse this rights of them. First wife usually gets completely neglected and husband only comes home to her when he is sick. Second wife is usually the sexy funky babe..who can barely be considered a caste woman. I understand in islamic law if a wife is not carrying out her responsibility, she could be punished. But how come these muslim men who abuse their rights, gets away so easily? From what I know, the first wife can seek divorce from her husband if he is unfair to her, but divorce is often a punishment for woman (esp in my asia culture)...not for man. And also it defeats the entire purpose of polygamy if it ends up in divorce of the poor first wife. Do islamic courts do something for these pitiful wives, and will the irresponsible man be punished? >:( 4. There was once in the newspaper which states that muslim man can divorce his wife via handphone message (SMS). This rule was passed out by the islamic court here, but was later removed due to an uproar from the local muslim community. But as a non- muslim, it really confused me...so in actual fact, does islam allows such divorce procedure?....making it easy to throw a woman? Really shocking! :( Thanks a lot! Liza |
| Re: It's long, but pls help. I really need help. |
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| bhaloo |
| 11/10/02 at 11:38:54 |
| [slm] Welcome to the board and enjoy your stay, insha'Allah. :) You have some good questions, and insha'Allah I'll try and answer them. [quote] 1. What does this line in Chapter two of the Quran means: "When you meet someone who disbelieve, then smite their necks...." It's really scary. What does this line really means [/quote] I think you are referring to this verse (translation by Yusuf Ali) Quran 9:12 Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them." --------- This refers to battle, when the Muslims are involved with the enemy in fighting. Muslims are commanded to fight well. Some enemies to Islam try and distort this verse and say, see they want to just kill. But Muslims do not fight anyone, unless they have been attacked. And proof for this is seen in this verse. Quran 60:8 Allah forbids you not with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just. [quote] Some verses seems to indicate that a slave/captive woman can be "conducted" by her master even without him marrying her. (I'm sorry I left the Quran at my office, so I can't quote the actual verses. But I'm sure you know which lines I meant.) Why is this so?I'm sorry but I feel it's like rape. [/quote] There was a lengthy discussion we had on that earlier, if someone knows the link they can put it up,. Actually the other questions, I'll let someone else answer them, as I wanted to look up something first. |
| Re: It's long, but pls help. I really need help. |
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| jannah |
| 11/11/02 at 01:00:40 |
| Hi Murnisa :) Welcome to the board... I'll try to answer some of your questions the best I can. I do suggest that you contact your local Masjid or Islamic society and meet some real Muslims that can help teach you and answer your questions in person. 1. There are two verses I found that you might be refering to: 8:12 - Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give Firmness to the Believers: I will instill terror into the hearts of the Unvelievers: Smite ye above their necks And smite all their Finger tips off them." and the note: The vulnerable parts of an armed man are above the neck. A blow on the neck, face, or head finishes him off. If he has armour it is difficult to get at his heart. But if his hands are put out of action he is unable to wield his sword or lance or other weapon... 47:4 - Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight) smite at their necks; at length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (Is the time for) either genorosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah's Will He could certainly have exacted Retribution from them (Himself); But (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slan in the way of God -- He will never let their deeds be lost. So... Both of these verses are talking about situations of war in hand to hand combat and what to do when such a thing happens. Islam is such a comprehensive religion it even includes instructions of what you can or cannot do in war. It's interesting really because in Islam you can't destory crops or kill innocent women or children, there are so many restrictions in what can be done or can't be done. Funny how Islam is still the only one's to follow these rules, because even man made rules of "humanity" like the Geneva Convention are deliberately ignored.. ie C thread about how the prisoners of Afghanistan are being treated currently. 2. We had a big discussion about this and we said it is NOT RAPE. The woman has a right to refuse. It's interesting how some missionaries LOVE taking one verse on this out of context for conveniently FORGET this one: 24:33 Let those who find not the wherewithal for marriage keep themselves chaste, until Allah gives them means out of His grace. And if any of your slaves ask for a deed in writing (To enable them to earn their freedom for a certain sum), give them such a deed If ye know any good in them; yeah, give them something yourselves out of the means which Allah has give to you. But force not your maids to prostitution when they desire Chastity, on order that ye may make a gain in the goods of this life. But if anyone compels them, Yet, after such compulsion, is Allah oft-Forgiving, Most merciful (to them). Notes: The law of slavery in the legal sense of the term is now obsolte. While it had any meaning, Islam made the slave's lot as easy as possible. A slave, male or female, could ask for conditional manumission by a written deed fixing the amount required for manumission and allowing the slave meanwhile to earn money by lawful means and perhaps marry and bring up a family. Such a deed was not to be refused if the request was genuine and the slave had character. Not only that, but the master is directed to help with money out of his own resources in order to enable the slave to earn his or her own liberty. The poor unfortunate girls, who are victims of such a nefarious trade, will yet find mercy from Allah, whose bounties extend to the lowest of His creatures. 3. I can't agree that "most men (if not all) abuse this rights of them." I don't think that's true I've seen some women really happy with polygamy. Yes there are men that abuse the rights of women and it's rather sad that they do, but I don't see what that has to do with Islam at all. And yes women can go to an Islamic court and get divorce from such an abusive husband, and in that case if the husband does not support her or her family doesn't, the state is obligated to care for her. 4. I haven't heard the fatwa or the reasoning, but even if it was so I don't see the issue about it. Don't many husbands and wives in the West "file divorce court papers not even seeing each other"? What's the difference here? The words of divorce are the formal declaration, same as signing your name on a legal paper. There are also many rules and regulations that have to be followed BEFORE a man is allowed to pronounce these formal words of divorce. Not to mention after... I'm glad you asked these questions and I really believe that with seeking more knowledge and understanding you'll see the beauty of the whole system of Islam. May God guide you... |
| Re: It's long, but pls help. I really need help. |
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| Ameeraana |
| 11/11/02 at 02:25:40 |
| Hello, I am glad to hear you are studying Islam. It took me about 4 and a half yrs of studying it on and off to finally convert. I had to see through the bad examples of Muslim men I had met to know that Islam is the truth. I converted in August this year and it has been the most wonderful journey!! Here is the link about slave women: ( in fact, it was me who asked the question too!! ) http://www.jannah.org/cgi-bin/madina/YaBB.pl?board=lighthouse;action=display;num=1033608343 As for the abuse of the rights to 4 wives-- I do believe that there are good Muslim men who justly lives with his multiple wives, but then again, there are Muslim men who seem to forget the fact that he must equally treat his wives justly. It is hard on women nowadays where many men seem to let their culture combine with Islam and treat women badly. But these examples are coming from Muslim men who are not correctly following the words of Allah. They will be judged by Allah even if we cannot do anything about it for now. As where divorce is concerned, also, Allah says that if a man dislikes his wife he may be disliking something that is good. Divorce is indeed not liked by Allah and men who abuse his right to be able to divorce a women by saying "I divorce you" three times will also be judged by Allah. Divorce is something that should be done as a last resort after trying to repair the marriage with advice from family, and their Imams. And, yes, a woman also is able to seek divorce. I do see your point when you say that divorce is more of a punishment to the women, but that has nothing to do with the religion, only society itself. Societies that do not treat their women with kindness and respect, but rather objects to be controlled make it very hard on divorced women who are considered "used". These things happen in countries of multiple religions, and yet it is something that should not happen if people follow their religions. Keep on reading the Qur'an and keep on asking your questions. I have had many question about verses I'm reading that I understand incorrectly, but when they are explained, make perfect sense to me!! |
| Re: It's long, but pls help. I really need help. |
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| murnisah |
| 11/11/02 at 08:46:59 |
| Hi, Thanks for the help. I feel I've obtained very intensive and clear answers for my questions on slavery in islam (particularly on women slaves), and the clarification on the true meanings of that verse of "smite the neck...." It is really a great help really! I just feel I need to clarify that I AM NOT AGAINST THE CORRECT IMPLEMENTATION OF POLYGAMY. But from the replies I've obtained, from my own reading and talking to some local muslims, I've come to one understanding... Islamic rule/law does not provide any penalty (in this world) for muslim men who abuse their polygamy rights. Their punishment may be received at Judgement Day. Till then muslim women just have to be patient...helplessly. I hope my this statement is wrong, but I think I'm right. I've read many books, the Quran and many articles on muslim women rights...and I must admit that the rights bestow on muslim women are highly commendable. I know of the divorce procedures in the West, but I never think that Western law really have respectable divorce procedures for the women, anyway. I read in some islamic books, that if a muslim man wants to divorce his wife, "he must let her off in a respectable and kind manner". That's why I asked about that SMS (handphone) divorce. I once talked to a muslim on this matter, and the reply was "It was really sad that islamic law permits this. I'm so ashamed". But the law was later taken off due to great dissapproval of the muslim community here...by the way I'm not in the US..I'm an asian. But it makes alot of non- muslims, like myself to consider: "Does islam really allows such divorce procedures or not? It is does, then it really doesn't seems like a respectable and kind manner to let off a wife?...no better than the Western-style divorce, that is. And the fact that such is allowed and then withdrawn suggest to us that certain islamic law is kind of 'wishy- washy'. Maybe, that law may be passed out again in the future. Yes, I have tried to consult this matter to the muslim authority here...but no reply came, as they probably feel it's not of my business since I am not a muslim....yet. But I need clarification. I hope someone who knows islamic law, particularly on the matter of divorce can help me. Again, I am really not trying to degrade or humialiate islam, or be rude with any muslims in my questions. Thanks. |
| Re: It's long, but pls help. I really need help. |
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| jannah |
| 11/11/02 at 14:42:42 |
| [quote]Islamic rule/law does not provide any penalty (in this world) for muslim men who abuse their polygamy rights. Their punishment may be received at Judgement Day. Till then muslim women just have to be patient...helplessly. I hope my this statement is wrong, but I think I'm right.[/quote] I don't think that's fair. First of all, every country in the world has their own laws so therefore they implement and enforce their own laws. Some countries have pseudo Islamic laws and that's that what they enforce and implement. Now IF there was a true Islamic country that ruled by the Shariah (Islamic Law) then there would be Islamic courts, policeman, judges, laws that people would have to follow. AND if they didn't follow them there would be appropriate punishments for that IN THIS LIFE. The Quran is a guide and from it and the Sunnah we can obtain a legal corpus and this is what is implemented. |
| 11/11/02 at 14:43:50 |
| jannah |
| Re: It's long, but pls help. I really need help. |
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| eleanor |
| 11/12/02 at 00:48:43 |
| [slm] Just wanted to add that the woman doesn't have to stand by helplessly while her husband "gets away with" mistreating her. She can go to her Imam or someone knowledgeable and demand her rights. Everyone knows that the husband has to treat each of his wives in a fair and respectable manner. If he continues to mistreat her, then she has the right to divorce him. Wa Allahu Ahlam. |
| Re: It's long, but pls help. I really need help. |
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| murnisah |
| 11/12/02 at 06:36:35 |
| Hi. It's me again. Thanks for all the replies, but apparently no one has answerd my question. From the start I ask, in islamic law is there any penalty/ punishment on a muslim man who abuses his polygamy rights (for example, neglecting his first wife). That is, in islamic law, will a penalty/ punishment be sentenced on such husband...say by fines, canning etc?? All the replies I got are...Divorce, Divorce, Divorce. Like I've said, if the only solution to this situation is divorce, then obviously it defeats the very purpose of polygamy. Might as well, the wife seek divorce before her husband's second marriage. Either way, she has all the loses. Divorce, in this case, is barely a penalty/ punishment for such husband. After all, he still has the second wife. At best, divorce only gets the wife out of her unfair marriage, and divorce often emotinally hurts the commonly good muslim women...who endlessly still love sher husband. As no muslim ever explains to me (even after so much asking) if there is penalty for such husband, under islamic ruling, I conclude there is no such ruling. That is, under islamic rule no punishment/ penalty is given for a man who abuse his polygamy rights. And if there is....TELL ME? This is my question. So it's like, when a thief steals an item and got caught, he was ordered to return the item to the owner. But after that the thief can go off freely. The owner gets back his item, but the ugly fact is, the wrong doer is not punished. I feel that this is the main setback in the implementation of polygamy in islam. I am not residing in an islamic state, so that is 'perhaps' why such penalty is not imposed on such men. But in an islamic state, or in the actual islamic context, will penalty/ punishment be imposed on the wrong- doer husband?? Islam has always emphasis that polygamy is to solve the problem of 'too many women to too few men', and also to prevent women from being mistreated as part- time entertainer (mistresses). On this context, I agree. However muslims need to understand that most non- muslims, like myself, are not anti- polygamy. But the fact that so little (if any) is done by muslims to punish the wrong -doer husbands, potrays islamic polygamy as still unfair to muslim women...and does islam permits this?? It is also inappropriate for muslims to say that non- muslims are unfair in our conclusion but at the same time, they refuse to answer our real query. It is understandable if some muslims are very- sensitive to islamic queries....as some non- muslims' treatment towards them are really bad....but it is good to really get to the point and explain to sincere non- muslims who really want to know. Thanks. |
| Re: It's long, but pls help. I really need help. |
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| Maliha |
| 11/12/02 at 07:56:07 |
| [slm] May Allah guide you toward the truth and continue fueling your sincerity in seeking and understanding... From my limited knowledge of Islam, I am not aware of any ruling that "punishes" the husband per se in this world. But similarily there isn't a ruling that punishes one that does not pray, that does not fast, etc. Not all punishments will be exacted in this world. This world pales in relation to the next. we believe that our every word and deed is recorded and should we fail to carry out our duties to Allah then we *will* lose in *this* world and the next and that is a promise from Allah. It is not fair to say the woman loses everything in polygamy. Because she doesn't. I know of very fair Muslim men, who treat their wives with utmost respect and dignity and Mashaallah have a thriving family in the context of polygamy. It is indeed sad that men can abuse their right to polygamy, but that is between them and Allah. The wife does have recourse, to involve the imam, community and family in her plight and does not have to be a marriage that mistreats her. We are not saying divorce is the only solution but who would want to be with a man that mistreats them? Currently there is no Islamic state, and sadly many illnesses in the Ummah have gone untreated. We may see people suffering but that is not due to Islam, for Islam has been perfected by our creator. All evil is wrought within our own hands, and May Allah guide us all towards the straight path. Sis :-) Maliha [wlm] |
| Just one insight among many on polygamy |
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| SuperHiMY |
| 11/12/02 at 08:09:24 |
| My following words will still NOT answer your question, sorry. Though perhaps there's some value in it anyway: Part of the answer is found in that for the vast majority of muslims families around the world, marriages are monogamous with only one wife and one husband. But, to hear about a 'regular' one man - one woman marriage is kinda boring. Stories about muslim men having two or more wives somehow fires up the imagination and that's where the spotlight is, ignoring the rest of the 'audience'. That audience so to speak, are again, the plain old regular muslim families. Consider it this way, south of my country, Canada, is an American State named Utah. At one time, Utah encouraged polygamy and although today, the state's Mormon Church forbids polygamy, thousands of such families still continue the practice. Yet, can we say that ALL American Men have 5 or 7 wives ? Well... From watching those afternoon TV talk shows, you must wonder. The Following well researched & in depth article is better than anything I can put together at the moment, [url]http://www.answering-christianity.com/islam_polygamy.htm[/url] Liza, Please keep asking your questions. The first revealed word to the Prophet Muhammad [saw] was 'Iqra'. It can mean: REad, Reflect, Think, ponder. Asking your questions, the way you have so far appears you're already [i]IQRAing[/i]. ~ HiMY! ~ |
| 11/12/02 at 08:47:46 |
| SuperHiMY |
| Re: It's long, but pls help. I really need help. |
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| jannah |
| 11/12/02 at 13:43:58 |
| [quote]From my limited knowledge of Islam, I am not aware of any ruling that "punishes" the husband per se in this world.[/quote] [slm] Sorry that just doesn't make sense to me. If everything in the Quran and Sunnah becomes "law" then if someone breaks that why wouldn't an Islamic Qadi punish that person?? It's funny I was just reading a [i]fictional[/i] story set in the ~13th c of a husband who didn't support his wife and was thrown into jail by the Islamic court. If it works in a story why would we think it wouldn't work in real life. |
| Re: It's long, but pls help. I really need help. |
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| tq |
| 11/12/02 at 14:15:48 |
| Assalamo elikuim I dont know the exact wordings of the hadith but isnt there is a hadith about the man( who would be unfair to one of his wives) being dragged/pulled on the day fo judgement ? Maybe someone can post the hadith. Wasalam tq |
| Re: It's long, but pls help. I really need help. |
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| Maliha |
| 11/12/02 at 14:35:47 |
| [slm] The whole set up of an Islamic court and jail system is non existant right now and that is my point. Where would a woman go today, in this context that we live in, to have her husband punished for not treating her well in the polygamy context? Sorry if it wasn't clear. If we lived in a utopian Islamic world, then all evils will be handled in the proper way and penalties implemented to check these diseases that have festered in our ummah. But we don't. And it gives me comfort to know that in the Next world perfect justice will be instituted. Wa Allahu A'3lam. Maliha :-) [wlm] |
| Re: It's long, but pls help. I really need help. |
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| jannah |
| 11/12/02 at 15:12:17 |
| [wlm] True that.. I really can't figure out what people live for or how they can deal with all the injustices without believing in an afterlife where true justice will be given out. That's what I meant when I said "it isn't fair", it's not fair to criticize an islamic ruling when it's looked at in a vacuum and not within the whole system of islam. |
| Re: It's long, but pls help. I really need help. |
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| Fatimah |
| 11/12/02 at 15:16:49 |
| Hi, :) [quote]From the start I ask, in islamic law is there any penalty/ punishment on a muslim man who abuses his polygamy rights (for example, neglecting his first wife). That is, in islamic law, will a penalty/ punishment be sentenced on such husband...say by fines, canning etc??[/quote] From what I have read and studied, there is no penalty other than the one in the Hereafter. The man who neglects one of his wives will be leaning to one side on the day of Judgement and Allah will deal with him then. It should be known also, that the punishments in the Hereafter are much greater than the punishments here. So this is not a matter that should be taken lightly. What I don't get though is how you think the woman has to be helpless in this situation? She can demand her rights, if he doesn't give them to her, she can divorce and remarry if she wants... (I think all marriages that have gone sour end like this, right?) Allah is always with the oppressed. Do you think that there should be a punishment for a spouse not giving eachother their rights? Like, if a woman doesn't give her husband his rights should she be whipped or charged a fine? Marriage is based on love and respect, not force. The solution would be to fix the marriage, which takes both partners to do, or seperate in a good way. [quote]All the replies I got are...Divorce, Divorce, Divorce. Like I've said, if the only solution to this situation is divorce, then obviously it defeats the very purpose of polygamy. Might as well, the wife seek divorce before her husband's second marriage. Either way, she has all the loses.[/quote] Why does it defeat the purpose of polygamy? Allah says in the Quran that a man is only allowed to marry more than one woman if he can be just and fair, if not, he should marry only one. There are many men who practice polygamy in the true manner it was meant for. The men who abuse this right defeated the purpose of polygamy in their case, but not in all cases. [quote]Divorce, in this case, is barely a penalty/ punishment for such husband. After all, he still has the second wife. At best, divorce only gets the wife out of her unfair marriage, and divorce often emotinally hurts the commonly good muslim women...who endlessly still love sher husband.[/quote] I agree this is not a punishment for the man, but it is a way out for the woman. Any man who would treat his wife like this is not a good man and its probably better for her to leave anyways. All divorces hurt, whether they are from a polygamy situation or not. [quote]However muslims need to understand that most non- muslims, like myself, are not anti- polygamy. But the fact that so little (if any) is done by muslims to punish the wrong -doer husbands, potrays islamic polygamy as still unfair to muslim women...and does islam permits this??[/quote] Just because the man is not punished in this life does not mean Islam permits this oppression. A Muslim must pray in Islam, if they don't they are not punished in this life, but in the Hereafter..but at the same time it is not permitted in Islam for them not to pray. [quote]But in an islamic state, or in the actual islamic context, will penalty/ punishment be imposed on the wrong- doer husband??[/quote] I would think she would be able to go to the courts and demand her material rights. Perhaps he would be fined for going against the court or put in jail or something like that if he didn't pay up. (this still doesnt help the marriage though) If they chose to divorce, I would think the man would have to support her financially for a while or give her a sum of money since this divorce was his fault from his neglect. Women are not just thrown out on the streets. They have a right to the house and many other things. |
| Re: It's long, but pls help. I really need help. |
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| jannah |
| 11/12/02 at 15:47:38 |
| [quote]From what I have read and studied, there is no penalty other than the one in the Hereafter.[/quote] Wow you guys just don't believe me huh :) Here's some info from J. badawi and a link to his book: AWW A basic principle of Islam is to mete justice to all. If the wife is abused and she files a complaint in an Islamic family court, the judge may admonish, warn or even rule on a suitable punishment for the husband. Abuse can be a ground for divorce if the wife seeks it. See my book Gender Equity in Islam for detailed treatment of abuse. It is available on more than one site , also for purchase from Islamic Book Service [now in Houston, Texas] WAWW www.jannah.org/genderequity |
| 11/12/02 at 15:52:15 |
| jannah |
| Re: It's long, but pls help. I really need help. |
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| murnisah |
| 11/13/02 at 05:44:28 |
| Hi, Thanks for all the replies. Yes, I do expect such a lot of feedbacks. As usual, most are just not happy with some of my statements, which I knew would happen. But looking at it again, at least now after so long I managed to get some little answers. Prior, to all this, when I told my non- muslim family and friends that I am interested in looking into the Islamic polygamy, they all replied, “Why bother, can’t you already see the mess? And be careful, they’ll get angry.” But I am just certain, that they said so because they refuse to really scrutinize the whole system. Then it’s unfair of them to focus only on the messy part. I am not being unfair. I am still seeking clarification...I asked. Particularly, I am really concern over the fact that such men who abuse their polygamy rights are simply let off...Islamic Law simply turn a blind eyes to this problem...is this the real Islamic Law? I’m a free- thinker but I am convinced that polygamy should be able to work, provided all wives and husband play each other’s roles well. Monogamy, on the other hand, carried out at its best, will result to a lot of women being left unmarried forever. An assertive non- muslim woman colleague had asked me, “Have you ever heard or seen a happy polygamous marriage?” My answer is, “No, but I’m sure there are. Because usually media don’t published positive Islamic news”. Then I am labeled as, ‘a pro- islamist free- thinker’! In the Quran it is clearly stated that polygamy is not encouraged but allowed for muslim men, and he must fulfill the responsibility and be fair to all his wives. But most muslim men and women here admit that Islamic polygamy has so much mess now, mainly because the husband doesn’t carry out his responsibilities as required. So then I asked, based on Islamic Law, can the muslim woman seek her rights as a wife (by mean of legal actions)? And by Islamic Law, can (or not) penalties/ punishment be imposed to ensure that the husband religiously carry out his responsibilities fairly? As most of you did, the local muslim told me the only solution is “DIVORCE”. They and most of you didn’t tell me any other possible avenues. Therefore then, I conclude ‘By Islamic Law, a muslim woman cannot seek her rights (by means of legal actions)..apart from divorce, and there is no penalty/ punishment for such husband. And penalty/ punishment cannot be imposed in this LIFE on such husband”. I didn’t jump into this conclusion justly, I had asked first. Many muslim women here told me, they seek divorce BEFORE they become involve in polygamy. They said ‘it is just to save the trouble of divorce later, after being neglected, which would cause mort hurt’. However, I view this as a form of disrespect to the Islamic Law because they are muslims, but they wouldn’t accept Islamic polygamy. This means, they feel Islamic polygamy is obsolete. Then again, why this phenomenon happens?? The actual problems are very obvious. Firstly, if the ONLY avenue for neglected wife is DIVORCE, then DIVORCE happens. But some muslim wives are so against divorce. These wives often just love their husband too much, or they feel divorce can hurt their children. Or they are uneducated women who regard marraige as their 'heart and soul'...treasures it too much. These wives then willingly and helplessly subject themselves to further negligence, because apparently there is no other way apart from divorce. /b](Please don’t say such wives are merely stupid, I say there are really such too noble wife and too caring mom.) It just breaks my heart, and ask in all these years, why Islamic Law allows this to continue? I've seen alot of good being done under Islamic Law but this why?? Secondly, because there is no penalty set, the husband feels free to abuse their rights. If we look from another angle, a wife who neglects her husband, disobey him, behave inappropriately or doesn’t carry out her duties, she can (and I feel she should) be punished by her husband. After being advised, if she doesn’t change, he can lightly beat her and refrain from sleeping with her. Thirdly, divorce is allowed. As some muslim men also hate divorce, they are allowed to marry a second wife. So there are sensible few avenues for such poor husband. But of course, a wife MUST NOT beat her husband and it’s insane to marry a second husband! But Islamic Law doesn’t provide any other avenues for such neglected wife…other than DIVORCE?? I agree that marriages must be based on love and trust, not by force. But if that can be used as an excuse, then a father can also say he would not/ could not punish his son who refused to pray five times a day…because after all, his son still do love and respect ALLAH. Certainly, this is wrong!! A father has absolute rights to and must beat his children who refuse to pray…and force him to pray. Similarly, a husband has absolute rights to beat his muslim wife who refuse to pray and force her to pray. Whether, the son and the wife finds truth in the praying is another issue...they still must pray. The father and the husband, can’t just say ‘let them face the punishment in hell…we can’t/ wouldn’t do anything now’. THERE JUST OUCHT TO BE PENALTIES AND PUNISHMENT. Certain religion sticks so rigidly to this ‘love and giving’ principle…and it just doesn’t work. I ever attended an open forum, whereby an Ustaz (can’t remember his full long Arabic name) heavily condemned muslim men who practiced polygamy. Many muslim women were pleased with his action, but I feel he went over the limits, because is it clear that polygamy is allowed in islam and he can’t changed this law. Moreover, polygamy is not the core problem, but the lack of Islamic laws relating to polygamy is. We can’t punished the Qadi, he’s just doing his job of ‘getting the knot tied’. But is it not possible, in Islamic Law, for Syariah Court to look into this growing problem and make new laws to re- enforce proper Islamic polygamy implementation?? IS IT POSSIBLE OR NOT?? Or does Islamic Law stated no more avenue (apart from DIVORCE) should be given to neglected wives? And does Islamic Law states that no punishment should ever be imposed to such husband?? Yes, yes I know there are examples of happy polygamous marriages…but many just didn’t. Then how? What can Islamic Law do about it…apart from DIVORCE, which many too noble muslim wives still can’t bear to seek? I am trying to seek clarification, against all cultural setbacks, whether OR NOT in Islamic Law, a neglected muslim wife have more avenues to insist on her rights, WITHOUT SEEKING DIVORCE? And I also asked if under Islamic Law, can penalty or punishment be imposed on such husband? Yes or No? I have received so many replies, but only managed to obtained these few answers: 1. 'And if they didn't follow them there would be punishments for that IN THIS LIFE. (But what are the example??) 2. 'From what I read ans studied, there is no penalty other than the one in the Hereafter. Then man who neglects on eof his wives will be leaning to one side on the day of Judgement. (Why didn't anyone tell me this from start?) 3.'I would think she would be able to go to the courts and demand her material rights (only 'materials'...so even if he husband doesn't comes home at all...she can't demand it) Perhaps he would be find for going against the court or put in jail or something like that if he didn't pay up (this still doesn't help the marriage though)...[Yes, it doesn't help much but at least he is obliged to carry out his duties...some sense of responsibilties just must be drilled into his head]. Whether these procedures have been carried out by any Islamic Court of not, I still don’t know. Non- muslims often makes wrong conclusion to Islamic Law, because sometimes muslims simply just get angry and drag the matter, but refuse to explain the real Islamic law, and don’t answer the very question that is being asked. I sincerely do not want to start blacklisting muslims as just a bunch of angry people…as many non- muslim already did. May I still be hopeful? “Yeah, an angry man is a hungry man, you guys are fasting, rite? Perhaps you can reply this mail after you have had your meal.”:p Thanks! |
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| Maliha |
| 11/13/02 at 07:48:08 |
| [slm] I truly think you are misunderstanding our point sis Mursinah. The fact is *if* an a true Islamic state existed, *and* there was a Judicial Islamic court then *yes* the man will be punished for his actions in neglecting his wife, in not performing his duties in upholding justice in his home. The Islamic Law will Institute a punishment for the man. BUT We are living in a time where Islamic Law is not being implemented in its just capacity. And thus people are coming up with the *wrong* conclusion about Islam. You can not judge Islamic Law when there is none being practiced. We live in a world where even the so called Islamic states are not implementing the Shariah, so what are you basing your judgement on? Sis, don't worry, no one is mad at you. Alhamdullillah, I am glad you are giving serious thoughts to these issues...and no, Muslims aren't a bunch of angry people, you are right about that :) Maliha :-) [wlm] |
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| BUSHRA |
| 11/13/02 at 08:32:32 |
| [slm], You know , when Allah wills for something to happen , it happens. Since ramadan started, I started reading a book my father gave me quite a while back, its in urdu and is a collection of the kutbas by Qari Tayyab Sahib, the grandson of Maulana Qasim Nanuti rh.(of dar-ul-uloom fame in India) and while reading it, I came across a very interesting story from the khilafat period of Hazrat Umar bin khattab rz. I rarely come into this forum of the message board but I just came across Murnisa's thread and thought wow, the story I read might help so here goes: During the khilafat(islamic rule) of Amir ul momineen hazrat umar rz, a woman came into the court and said, " O' Amir ul momineen, what should I say regarding my husband? He fasts during the days and prays throughout the nights." Omar rz said, "Subhanullah, may Allah bless you, what a pious husband you have, who fasts during the days and prays tahajjud at nights." The woman looked disappointed and left quickly afterwards. Another sahabi by the name of Aktham rz was present in court and had been listening to the woman and said, "O' Amir ul momineen, have you understood what this lady meant?" Omar replied, "She praised her husband, what else?" Aktham said, "O'Amir ul momineen, why would she take the trouble of coming all the way to the court and then sing praises of her husband that he fasts for days and prays for nights? She did not come to praise him but came to a file a complaint and has done so." "What is her complaint?" asked Umar rz. "She said that ,'he spends all days fasting and spends all nights prostraiting; so he is of great use to Allah but is of no use to me', this is the complaint that she has filed with you." Omar rz. cotemplated and then said,"When Allah has given you so much knowledge and understanding, why don't you decide this case. What should the order of sharriyah(islamic law) be for this husband?" Aktham decided immediately, "O'Amir ul momineen, the husband should be ordered not to fast on one out of every four days and one out every four nights should be spent with his wife." "O'Aktham, how did you arrive on this ruling?" "I derived it from the the Quran and from the verse where Allah has allowed men to marry upto four wives. From this verse , it is clear that if a man has four wives, he should spend one night with each of them in their respective homes i.e. he should visit them for four nights, (one night for each wife=equal time:hint,hint). Therefore , if a man has one wife, e should spend three nights in ibaadat , and one night with her." Omar rz. said, "Subhanullah, what a wise decision!" From that day Aktham rz. was appointed the chief justice for mulims to decide their cases justly in the light of Quran and Sunnah. Three points can be derived from this story: a- A woman reserves the right to complain to a qazi or an imam or the muslim ruler of her time, if she is dissatisfied in any aspect her marriage. b- To spend an equal amount of time with each wife and to provide equal financial support and similar and seperate living accomodations are the MAIN conditions to practice polygamy within Islam. However if a woman gives up this right out her own WILL, there is no blame on the husband and she will be amply rewarded for it in this world and the next. c- If the islamic court can order a husband to cut down on his prayer and fasting in order to spend more time with his wife who feels neglected, would such a system let a man get away with the illtreatment if his wife(ves) or if he is neglecting one wife for the other? d- The woman in the story out of haya(modesty) refrained from mentioning the nitty gritty details of her complaint to the khalif incharge, however as Aktham rz. pointed out , it was still the khalif's responsibility to pay more attention to her words and find the hidden intention. Imagine the responsibility of a qazi or an imam to provide justice , when the complaint is clear and the message is out in the open. In the end I leave you withthe words of the Prophet [saw]himself: "THE BEST OF YOU ARE THOSE WHO ARE BEST TO THEIR WIVES." If I made any mistakes in this post may Allah forgive me , it was not my intention. Bushra :-) |
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| eleanor |
| 11/13/02 at 12:01:39 |
| [color=blue][i]This is not a Fiqh discussion board. Prolonged threads arguing over Fatwas and the details of Islamic law will be closed. Avoid asking questions that require a scholar or Shaykh, as there is no one on the board qualified to answer your questions. Please use other knowledgeable means such as a scholar, Imam or knowledgeable person in your area.[/i][/color] The above is an excerpt from the Constitution which I am sure you have all read upon joining the board. I'd like to highlight the fact that no one on this board is either qualified to give fatwa nor are they an expert on fiqh, Islamic law (to my knowledge). Masha Allah, some of the answers here have been very beneficial. Especially the story just related by Sister Bushra. However, if you feel that your answers are not being adequately answered here, then maybe the solution is to look for a more suitable source. We are all delighted to answer any questions you may have :) Yet you must appreciate the fact that we are all "amateurs" here; some more than others ;) and can only answer with our limited knowledge. Please do not take the answers you receive here to be a final judgement on any aspect of Islam. Best regards |
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| Barr |
| 11/13/02 at 17:28:10 |
| Assalamu'alaikum, :-) Dear Liza, Its nice to know of your keen interest in Islam, mashaAllah :) We should meet up sometime, inshaAllah :) I'm currently trying to find out about your queries, particularly with the divorce via SMS and the Shariah Court here, as well as the polygamy thing. I did hear that those who intend to re-marry must produce evidence that they are able to support their wives. If that is rejected, they can go to the Appeal Court and state their case. So, hope you can bear with me for awhile, yah? Do take care :-) wassalam! |
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| Barr |
| 11/21/02 at 08:04:21 |
| Assalamu'alaikum :-) Sorry, if you have to wait long, but here's wot I found out. [quote]4. There was once in the newspaper which states that muslim man can divorce his wife via handphone message (SMS). This rule was passed out by the islamic court here, but was later removed due to an uproar from the local muslim community. But as a non- muslim, it really confused me...so in actual fact, does islam allows such divorce procedure?....making it easy to throw a woman? Really shocking! :([/quote] In Singapore, all divorces must be reported to the Shariah Court. If a husband has said his talaq (divorce) to his wife, the couple would have to report it and state in front of the qadi (judge) that the talaq was pronounced over the wife at such and such time. This is to ascertain that such do happen, and to prevent fitnah (slander etc). In the case of SMS, there is no such fatwa that pronouncing divorce through such a medium is allowed. Reason being, there are many factors than can taint the validity fo the divorce, as there is no gurantee that the SMS is specifically from the husband. For example, a mobile can be passed to one person to another, or there may even be cases of "wrong numbers" etc, etc. If the wife received such SMS, she may either clarify it with her husband or she may proceed to the Shariah Court, and make a report. The court would make its own investigations and may or may not declare that divorce has taken place between them. I did read in the papers that in a Middle Eastern country, there is a fatwa that allows such a act as a valid way for divorce. However, their culture may differ, and there may be other factors that we do not know of which renders the the validity of divorce via SMS by the ulama there to be legitimate. Allahua'lam (Allah knows best). As for polygamy... The Registry of Muslim Marriages here would require men who wish to perform polgeny to show evidence of his financial status and stability. This includes his monthly income, assets etc, as well as his past records to ensure that the man is able to be support and give nafkah (maintenance) to his wives. If he is unable to show as such, in accordance to the means test and the interview, he would not be able to marry again (polygeny), here, in Singapore. He would not be able to make an appeal to the Appeal Court, though, unlike wot I mentioned in my previous thread. Allahua'lam :-) |
| 11/21/02 at 08:06:46 |
| Barr |
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| UmmZaid |
| 11/21/02 at 18:17:08 |
| [quote author=murnisah link=board=lighthouse;num=1036943438;start=0#7 date=11/12/02 at 06:36:35]Hi. It's me again. Thanks for all the replies, but apparently no one has answerd my question. From the start I ask, in islamic law is there any penalty/ punishment on a muslim man who abuses his polygamy rights (for example, neglecting his first wife). That is, in islamic law, will a penalty/ punishment be sentenced on such husband...say by fines, canning etc?? All the replies I got are...Divorce, Divorce, Divorce. [/quote] Actually, you did get an answer, but maybe you didn't "get it," IYKWIM. The woman's recourse in the situation of a man abusing his rights, or not fulfilling his obligations, is the Islamic State -- the Islamic court system. However, in this time, there is no Islamic State, no true Islamic court system, and so, for the most part, these women are left with little recourse in this world. However, I wouldn't say that [quote]Islamic rule/law does not provide any penalty (in this world) for muslim men who abuse their polygamy rights. Their punishment may be received at Judgement Day. Till then muslim women just have to be patient...helplessly. I hope my this statement is wrong, but I think I'm right. [/quote] Even in this day and age where there is no true Islamic legal authority, the Muslim woman, abused or not, does not sit by patiently and helplessly. For she still has the ultimate "weapon" to fight back against injustice, and that is her du'a, or prayer to the Best of Helpers. I wouldn't underestimate this -- after all, as we know from a chapter in the Qur'an, Allah HEARD the complaint of the woman! Sura 58 is called "al Mujadila," the Woman Who Pleads. Al Mujadila was named Khaula bint Tha'laba, and she was divorced in the old and unjust pagan way by her Muslim husband. She took her sorrow straight to Allah and He Answered her and Rectified her situation for her. *ALL* Muslim women (well, all Muslims for that matter) have this tool at their disposal, and this Best Ally Who *is* al 'Adl, the Inifintely Just One. I wouldn't call this "helpless." I also would not underestimate the terror of the delay of the unjust man's punishment to the Next World. It may be "justice delayed," and it may not satisfy our need or desire to see some results now, but it'll be a lot worse for him than any punishment he would have received in this life. [quote]That is, under islamic rule no punishment/ penalty is given for a man who abuse his polygamy rights. And if there is....TELL ME? This is my question.[/quote] It isn't his "polygyny rights" (not polygamy) that he is abusing. It is his marital *responsibilities* to the first (and second?) wife. And there is recourse for her in Islamic law. [quote]However muslims need to understand that most non- muslims, like myself, are not anti- polygamy. But the fact that so little (if any) is done by muslims to punish the wrong -doer husbands, potrays islamic polygamy as still unfair to muslim women...and does islam permits this??[/quote] This is like saying that because abuse of women and children exist in non Muslim culture that non Muslims don't lift a finger to stop the abuse of their women and children, therefore we must conclude that (Christian / Jewish / Hindu / Buddhist / Whatever) marriage is unfair to women and children because it permits their abuse. But the reality is that we know that non Muslims in these various societies do work at individual, tribal, commuity, and even state levels to fight these abuses. The fact that they still exist doesn't negate the fact that there *are* individuals trying to help, and no sensible person would blame the religion or entire community of that faith for the fact that these things still exist. In the absence of an Islamic state, what should the Muslims do? Get all up in each other's private business? You can't have a vigilante justice committee roaming around making rulings on Islamic law and trying to enforce their consequences. However, one should not overlook that help, counseling, arbitration, whatever may be set up on a small scale family, tribal, or community level. |
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| The_Reciter |
| 11/21/02 at 18:43:51 |
| [quote author=jannah link=board=lighthouse;num=1036943438;start=0#2 date=11/11/02 at 01:00:40]meet some real Muslims [/quote] [slm] Sory sister but its anyway funy how to write this. Are we not real muslims? ;D |
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| UmmZaid |
| 11/21/02 at 18:43:57 |
| [quote author=murnisah link=board=lighthouse;num=1036943438;start=15#16 date=11/13/02 at 05:44:28] As most of you did, the local muslim told me the only solution is “DIVORCE”. They and most of you didn’t tell me any other possible avenues. Therefore then, I conclude ‘By Islamic Law, a muslim woman cannot seek her rights (by means of legal actions)..apart from divorce, and there is no penalty/ punishment for such husband. And penalty/ punishment cannot be imposed in this LIFE on such husband”. I didn’t jump into this conclusion justly, I had asked first. [/quote] I'm going with Eleanor on this one. Don't take everything here as the end all be all complete picture of Islamic law. And at the same time, be careful not to jump to conclusions about Shari'a based on a few message board posts in the English language. Studying Shari'a in the Arabic is something that requires years of study and discipline. It's a lot more complex than this thread could ever hope to be. [quote]Many muslim women here told me, they seek divorce BEFORE they become involve in polygamy. They said ‘it is just to save the trouble of divorce later, after being neglected, which would cause mort hurt’. However, I view this as a form of disrespect to the Islamic Law because they are muslims, but they wouldn’t accept Islamic polygamy. This means, they feel Islamic polygamy is obsolete. [/quote] I think your conclusion is wrong. If women here said that they would seek a divorce before being involved in polygyny, that is because that is their personal choice. The permissibility of polygyny in Islamic law doesn't necessarily entail that every single Muslim must engage in it. The basic biological and emotional make-up, paired with their cultural upbrining means that some people (men or women) can easily, or even with difficulty, engage in polygyny. However, it also means that other people (men AND women) would simply be unable to cope or handle such a situation. Although patience and forbearance are top qualities, and although emulation of the Mothers of the Believers is highly commendable, we should remember that the Prophet [saw] had a very happy, very successful monogamous marriage, and we can look to this marriage for our inspiration as well. Not wanting to engage in polygyny for one's personal emotional / financial / physical reasons does *not* entail rejection of the Islamic validity of the practice. I know you are not a Muslim (yet? insha'Allah), but to say that women who would prefer to avoid polygyny, even if it meant divorce, reject something that is made permissible in the Qur'an is a serious statement to make, and one that is best avoided. [quote]Moreover, polygamy is not the core problem, but the lack of Islamic laws relating to polygamy is. [/quote] No, the problem is the lack of taqwa, or God fearingness and piety, among people who abuse their rights and shirk their responsibilities. [quote]I am trying to seek clarification, against all cultural setbacks, whether OR NOT in Islamic Law, a neglected muslim wife have more avenues to insist on her rights, WITHOUT SEEKING DIVORCE? And I also asked if under Islamic Law, can penalty or punishment be imposed on such husband? Yes or No?[/quote] Well, it's been asked and answered, but: speaking theoretically, *yes* there is punishment, *yes* there is recourse for her. But speaking realistically, in a world where there is *NO Islamic state* to enforce Shari'a, her *earthly* avenues for recourse are (temporarily) blocked. However, her ability to appeal to Allah, the Master of the Day of Judgement, is not, and never will be blocked. [quote]3.'I would think she would be able to go to the courts and demand her material rights (only 'materials'...so even if he husband doesn't comes home at all...she can't demand it) Perhaps he would be find for going against the court or put in jail or something like that if he didn't pay up (this still doesn't help the marriage though)...[Yes, it doesn't help much but at least he is obliged to carry out his duties...some sense of responsibilties just must be drilled into his head].[/quote] Her "material rights" include his presence in her home at least once out of every four nights (and I am not sure if it is more often if he has less than 4 wives). Can a judge force him to love her? No. Can he force him to be fair to her, in that anything he gives to one wife, he gives to her? Yes. |
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| Fatimah |
| 11/21/02 at 22:51:51 |
| [slm] [quote]Not wanting to engage in polygyny for one's personal emotional / financial / physical reasons does *not* entail rejection of the Islamic validity of the practice.[/quote] Question: What is the ruling on a woman hating polygyny because of jealousy, since jealousy is something natural in women, and we read of the jealousy of ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) concerning the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)? So where do we stand? I have learned from reading some books that hating one of the rulings of sharee’ah is tantamount to kufr. Answer: Praise be to Allaah. A woman’s jealousy concerning her husband is something that is innate and natural, and you cannot tell a woman, “Do not feel jealous over your husband.” If a person dislikes something even though it is prescribed in sharee’ah, that does not adversely affect him, so long as he does not hate the fact that it is prescribed. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “Jihaad (holy fighting in Allaah’s Cause) is ordained for you (Muslims) though you dislike it, and it may be that you dislike a thing which is good for you and that you like a thing which is bad for you…” [al-Baqarah 2:216] The woman who feels jealous does not hate the fact that Allaah has allowed her husband to marry more than one woman, but she hates to have a co-wife. There is an obvious difference between the two matters. Hence I hope that the brother who has asked this question, and other people, will think carefully about matters and not rush to judgement; I hope that that they will recognize the subtle differences whereby rulings differ. From the fatwas of Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen for al-Da’wah magazine (www.islam-qa.com) |
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| oneway2paradise |
| 11/22/02 at 03:09:03 |
| [slm] I just want to make a point. It may not answer your question directly but it needs to be restated. Most of the replies have mentioned this but I want to reword it. Islam is not unfair because Allah created it for us. As in the verse, "This day I have perfected your religion for you, completed My Favor upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion." [5:3] After that verse was revealed, Umar (ra) cried. When asked why he was crying, he replied, "Nothing succeeds perfection but imperfection" (The Sealed Nectar). So, anything you find unfair is not because of Allah or Islamic Law itself. It is in the imperfection of men who practice it. Do not judge the religion of Islam by the people who follow it. We are merely human. Know that the Prophet Muhammad [saw] said that, "the best of you are those who are best to their wives..." Allah commands us to follow His Message in the Qur'an and through the example of His Messenger [saw]. Like many people have mentioned, there is no Islamic country in existence right now. Even the ones who call themselves so are not truly Islamic countries. They mix the laws of man with the perfection of Allah's laws. Insha Allah, all suffering is rewarded by Allah to the believers. Sometimes suffering is a blessing because sins are being taken away. Nothing happens without the will of Allah so Muslims have to have patience with each situation and do what Allah wants in each situation. There is a proper way to react to every situation. I would hate to see you not embrace Islam because of the bad behavior of people. Please go visit a masjid and talk with some Muslims in person. Oops, as usual, I made more than one point. ::) :-) I hope this has been helpful. May Allah guide us all. [slm] Amber |
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