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Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| Can Imams be Matchmakers? |
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| Anonymous |
| 11/19/02 at 05:24:29 |
| Salaam! Ramadaan Mubarak! I hope everyone's sawm and 'ibaadah are excepted, ameen. Lately, I've been puzzled by our Imams. Not in terms of their knowledge or their emaan, but I often hear of brothers coming to them, pleading that they help them find a wife. I know sisters (like myself), would be a bit more hesitant to step to an Imam with this type of problem, but here's the thing: it seems that most Imams don't want to be involved at all in this process, or just laugh and joke about the plethora of brothers out there who want to get married! What is the Imam's role here? Isn't this an epidemic problem? Shouldn't it be his duty to help those who have little means in finding a spouse? Now, as for the sisters, I think there's a shortage of what they can do with this problem at their local masjid, outside of "matchmaker aunties" and "matrimonials" (both of which can be scary, but may Allah reward them for their good intentions). I mean, where else would they go, particularly if their parents are lacking contacts as well? I know everything comes from Allah, and it is preordained, and if we want help, we should turn to Him. No doubt. I don't meant to contradict that at all. My concern here is that there are some really valuable resources that can be used in getting people in the community married, but it's hardly taken advantage of, for whatever reason (either because the "resource" does not want to be bothered, or those in need of their help are too shy to ask for help). Living in the West, couldn't we use all the help we can get? Because too few of us *really* know our Muslim community well even if we frequent the masjid, shouldn't we use contacts who could recommend others, whose character they may actually know something about? Here's my suggestion: Imams should take the requests of brothers looking to get married seriously. In fact, they should "root out" the single bros to help them. Most Imams are married or have female contacts that could be help from the sisters' side, as well. In this sense, it's vital to have some type of connection to help from the sisters' side. What say you? Is this a good idea? or is this too much to ask of our Imams? should we just rely on Allah alone, and not worry about the fact that there are too few resources out there to help get community members married? May Allah reward you for your advice. And if my theory is at all acceptible, please advise your local Imams to step up to this responsibility! Ma'salaamah. |
| Re: Can Imams be Matchmakers? |
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| UmmZaid |
| 11/19/02 at 09:08:26 |
| [quote author=Anonymous Lately, I've been puzzled by our Imams. Not in terms of their knowledge or their emaan, but I often hear of brothers coming to them, pleading that they help them find a wife. I know sisters (like myself), would be a bit more hesitant to step to an Imam with this type of problem, but here's the thing: it seems that most Imams don't want to be involved at all in this process, or just laugh and joke about the plethora of brothers out there who want to get married!<< Really? I have to say that this hasn't happened in any community I've been in. How sad! What is the Imam's role here? Isn't this an epidemic problem? Shouldn't it be his duty to help those who have little means in finding a spouse? << Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the Imam in the role of the wali for the women without one? So it seems he would necessarily be involved... or would appoint a "deputy" of some sort. Is it an epidemic problem = for men to find wives and vice versa? I think so. Here's my suggestion: Imams should take the requests of brothers looking to get married seriously. In fact, they should "root out" the single bros to help them. Most Imams are married or have female contacts that could be help from the sisters' side, as well.<< I don't know about "rooting them out," b/c maybe not every single brother is ready to be married. But I can see starting some type of list or file with the vital stats of brothers who come to him for help. Ya'ani, keeping them in mind for sisters his wife or someone else mentions. What say you? Is this a good idea? or is this too much to ask of our Imams? should we just rely on Allah alone, and not worry about the fact that there are too few resources out there to help get community members married?<< Well, the saying is "Trust in Allah, but tie up your camel." Perhaps when we are relying on Him, His answer is to "send us" someone who can facilitate and coordinate these meetings for people. Perhaps the Imam just needs to be kick started. |
| Re: Can Imams be Matchmakers? |
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| Maliha |
| 11/19/02 at 09:19:59 |
| [slm] I know our imams hesitation with this whole deal is the shadiness of some of the brothers coming through to put forth a proposal. Some brothers want to get married for the wrong reasons, read "green cards!"! It's hard for the Imam to root out the sincere ones from the ones who aren't, cuz they go through great lengths to make up lies. The imam's words have a lot of weight to them, if he recommends a brother to a sis, and then it turns out sour, or the brother takes advantage of her, etc...the blame indirectly comes back to him. I think he speaks from experience, since he used to try and facilitate some sort of matchmaking process, but it didn't work out well. I don't know maybe if it became more of a community effort? then the network is spread and more people can get information on the prospective brother and sister? Wa Allahu A'3lam. Sis, Maliha :-) [wlm] |
| Re: Can Imams be Matchmakers? |
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| siddiqui |
| 11/21/02 at 14:40:19 |
| [slm] [quote]I know our imams hesitation with this whole deal is the shadiness of some of the brothers coming through to put forth a proposal. Some brothers want to get married for the wrong reasons, read "green cards!"! [/quote] Iam sure that is a problem here, and the Imams need to be careful, but other than that Imams usally vouch for the brothers who they know and who attend the mosques and halqas regularly, and I think its nice on the Brs part to approach the Imam rather than find other ways but whats there in the heart? whats the true intent and niyaah? Allah swt is the only one who knows the truth [wlm] |
| 11/21/02 at 14:41:52 |
| siddiqui |
| Re: Can Imams be Matchmakers? |
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| jannah |
| 11/21/02 at 22:33:35 |
| [quote]whats the true intent and niyaah?[/quote] we at the Sisters Worldwide Network have found an excellent way to find out about brothers before marriage... :-[ if you're a sister about to get married or making a decision let me know and i'll msg you :) ;D ;D ;D ;D |
| Re: Can Imams be Matchmakers? |
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| siddiqui |
| 11/21/02 at 23:05:58 |
| [slm] [quote]True intent or niyath [/quote] what i meant was that well if a brother wants to marry for a green card or other nefarious reasons and if he tries hard enough he can very well hide it from the prospective spouse, the community or the imam ( as I had said earlier an Imam can be a good judge) . Allah SubHana Wa Ta`ala is the only one who knows the truth Allahhumahfazna min kulli balaaidunniya wa azaabil aaqirah ameen [wlm] I wonder whats the Sister's 'Acid test' ;) |
| 11/21/02 at 23:07:55 |
| siddiqui |
| Re: Can Imams be Matchmakers? |
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| Rameeza |
| 11/22/02 at 07:26:17 |
| [slm] Since Imams are not really like priests I think that in the Islamic community, most married folk should try to help find partners for the unmarried folk. But this process should not resemble the 'older aunt' technique that most single people run from. If you have an unmarried girl and know of a great guy for her, you should try to help the situation in a subtle way. If an Imam helps out, fair and good. But this should not have to be one of his duties as an Imam. Its just the duty of most responsible muslims. Ma 'as salaama |
| Re: Can Imams be Matchmakers? |
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| The_Reciter |
| 11/22/02 at 19:14:14 |
| [wlm]What is an Matchmakers [wlm] |
| Re: Can Imams be Matchmakers? |
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| se7en |
| 11/22/02 at 23:34:52 |
| as salaamu alaykum, [quote]But this should not have to be one of his duties as an Imam [/quote] sis rameeza, why do you say so? if an imam is the respected teacher and advisor for a community, shouldn't he also try to take care of the needs of that community? their needs are not just learning fiqh and seerah.. but also counseling, conflict resolution in families, and I think helping single bro's and sisters find good spouses in a halal way. w'Allahu a'lam. wasalaam :-) |
| 11/22/02 at 23:37:41 |
| se7en |
| Re: Can Imams be Matchmakers? |
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| Chris |
| 11/23/02 at 16:19:58 |
| Just my opinion, but I think they can perform introductions if asked, (its hard for a boy to talk to a girl for a first time - and I often end up being just friends and reluctant to spoil that though romance. Thinks: Why can't muslim boys and girls be just friends? You miss out on a lot. ???) but to pressure the girl (or the boy) is a dreadful sin. Chris |
| NS |
| Re: Can Imams be Matchmakers? |
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| Al-Basha |
| 11/23/02 at 17:03:36 |
| [slm] hahaha, id be interested in exactly how that network works ;D About the imam thing, I know a lot of brothers who would feel uncomfortable with going to a shaikh and asking him. Then again, here in our community most requests by brothers to the imams aren't particularly taken seriously, not because of green-card issues, i mean even brothers that have lived here all their lives and stuff like that. It's a bit of a dillemma, maybe someone should write a book about it? [quote author=jannah link=board=madrasa;num=1037701469;start=0#4 date=11/21/02 at 22:33:35] we at the Sisters Worldwide Network have found an excellent way to find out about brothers before marriage... :-[ if you're a sister about to get married or making a decision let me know and i'll msg you :) ;D ;D ;D ;D[/quote] |
| Re: Can Imams be Matchmakers? |
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| The_Reciter |
| 11/23/02 at 19:50:39 |
| [quote author=jannah link=board=madrasa;num=1037701469;start=0#4 date=11/21/02 at 22:33:35] we at the Sisters Worldwide Network have found an excellent way to find out about brothers before marriage... :-[ if you're a sister about to get married or making a decision let me know and i'll msg you :) ;D ;D ;D ;D[/quote] [slm] This is interesting, how did you found it? This remembers me on something,..weird... [wlm] |
| 11/23/02 at 19:54:10 |
| The_Reciter |
| Re: Can Imams be Matchmakers? |
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| Anonymous |
| 11/24/02 at 02:58:49 |
| [slm] Imams n Match making hmmmmmmmmmmm sounds like an intertesting job :) Wouldnt it be musch easier If a sister thinks a brother is suitable or vice versa to approach each other directly( not dating ,inet chatting etc etc) via a letter or a friend,or sister/Mahram Br and tell them directly So-n-So wants to marry what do you think and if you have any questions let me/us know rather than a propsal coming though an Imam or realtives friends etc where one dosent really know 'who' the proposal is coming from "family/culture/economics/immigration" and it leaves one confused what actually is going on If both parties agree they are interested then can approach their respective families to discuss the issue Its a another question will a man's ego take it when the proposal is coming from a lady directly ;) I think in this day and present eligible generation that shouldnt be a problem [wlm] |
| Re: Can Imams be Matchmakers? |
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| oneway2paradise |
| 11/24/02 at 15:37:40 |
| [slm] [quote]Thinks: Why can't muslim boys and girls be just friends?[/quote] Hellooooo. Um, because it's prohibited. [slm] |
| Re: Can Imams be Matchmakers? |
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| Chris |
| 11/24/02 at 15:41:16 |
| Why? It seems to have no logical reason. I get along fine with Muslim boys and girls, why can they get along fine with each other. Platonic relationships are just as interesting and as important as romantic ones. Chris |
| Re: Can Imams be Matchmakers? |
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| bhaloo |
| 11/24/02 at 19:03:31 |
| [slm] [quote author=se7en link=board=madrasa;num=1037701469;start=0#8 date=11/22/02 at 23:34:52]sis rameeza, why do you say so? if an imam is the respected teacher and advisor for a community, shouldn't he also try to take care of the needs of that community? their needs are not just learning fiqh and seerah.. but also counseling, conflict resolution in families, and I think helping single bro's and sisters find good spouses in a halal way. [/quote] The reality and role that imaams are playing in America is quite different. Perhaps in the rest of the world as well? ??? Br. Yahiya breaks it down. Demanding Professionalism in our Masjid By Yahiya Emerick Where do you go if your son is rebelling? What do you do when your daughter wants to marry someone against your wishes? Your uncle is feeling depressed lately. Who can help him recover? Your spouse is too materialistic and is neglecting the spiritual life of your family? Who can help? If you have ever been faced with issues similar to these, then you have probably tried to get help in the one place where you would expect to get it: the Masjid. Perhaps you called or paid a visit to the Masjid office in the hopes of finding a sympathetic ear, or maybe you met with the Imam or director to discuss what's ailing your life. But if your experience is like most people in most places, you wound up having to look elsewhere for assistance. You just couldn't find the support you needed in your local house of worship. Maybe no one answered the phone; maybe your calls were never returned or, if you did manage to get a personal meeting, perhaps the Imam or director spoke little English or merely used the opportunity to lecture you on fiqh issues. Hardly a solution to real life problems! If we say the Masjid is the focal point of the community and open its doors five times a day for prayer, shouldn't the Masjid be open for other needs the believers have as well? But what I've seen all too often is that those who build and operate the Masajid have little expertise in organizing a life-giving institution. Just because someone can make a million dollars living off medical insurance billings doesn't mean he can run a spiritual and communal project! What I'm telling you is not the disgruntled ramblings of an emotional person. I'm quite happy being Muslim no matter what the strengths or weaknesses of my community are. After having visited countless Masajid across the country, I wish merely to call your attention to a most pressing issue; that of the need for professionalism in the Masajid. I don't know how many of you are "reverts," or, people who have accepted Islam, but if you are reading this, do you remember what going to church or the synagogue was like in earlier years? Put aside for a moment the faulty theology and mistaken notions that were taught in those places. Remember what the structure was like. If you needed counseling, the minister or rabbi was well qualified and available. If you had children there were fun and interesting youth activities throughout the week. If you were poor you may have received help. If you merely needed a good book on your religion, there was a wonderful, staffed library on premises. Do you see where I'm going? Nearly every single Masjid built and operated in North America has been built, funded and operated by immigrant Muslims. (With the exception of a large number of African American Masajid.) After extensive interviews with immigrant Muslims, it seems the perception of the Masjid "back home" is of a place to make salah, do janazah, 'Eid celebrations, etc... Family and personal matters are handled through other channels: relatives, friends, youth clubs, etc... After all, everyone's a Muslim so the Masjid is just a small feature in the spiritual and social life of the community. Enter the new world: the immigrant builds a Masjid with the good intention of having a place for the community to gather and make Salah and do Eid, etc... But when members of the community have needs that only a Muslim would know how to deal with, bingo! There are no Muslim relatives in great abundance. The few Muslim friends one may have are all busy making money and there are no Muslim youth clubs or community activities beyond dinners once a month or fundraising events. So where does the community member go? He or she seeks out non-Muslim help at best or leaves the problem unsolved at worst. The Masjid has no place in their life. Even if the Masjid has a few pitiful programs to enhance the life of its members, more often than not, they're staffed only sporadically by people who just came from a village back home. They are not professional in their manner according to Western standards- they may not even show up on time to anything- and they are not equipped to deal with the issues confronting the Muslim minority experience. I'm not saying all volunteers in the Masajid are similar to this description. Don't get me wrong. But in all my time as a frequenter of Masajid, I've only met about nine or ten truly competent people. Contrast the above scenario with the average church or synagogue. The institution is built to serve as a community center right from the start. Youth programs are a priority and are well-planned and fun. Women are represented on the board and on all committees. Volunteers are chosen for their trustworthiness and reliability. They are made to feel that their job means something and they are well-coordinated and friendly. The minister or rabbi speaks English fluently, even if they are an immigrant, and knows Greek, Hebrew or Latin on the side. In order to be the leader of the community, the minister or rabbi had to undergo extensive training which included, besides the religious subjects, counseling, administration, management, music and singing, public speaking, research, etc.... culminating in the award of a D.D. (Doctorate of Divinity). I'm sorry, but the little certificates from madrasahs all over the third world do not prepare an Imam for the task of leading the Muslim community in North America. Before you take offense at this statement, consider this: what is your definition of an Imam? Islamically, the Imam is supposed to have some authority over the community. He is to be elected by the Muslims and given respect and listened to. But in every Muslim community I've been in, the Imam has no authority, little respect and merely leads the prayers and recites some du'as. At the most he may teach some classes here and there on Qirah or Aqeedah. Even if he is a hafiz the situation is still pretty much the same. If this is your definition of what an Imam means, then you need to remember all the complaints we have about why the Muslim world has declined in the last five hundred years. Islam was relegated to the Masjid. Imams were prayer leaders and little more. Islam had little hold over a person's personal or social life. This is how Islam is viewed in Muslim countries; this is one reason why the immigrant Muslims had to leave their countries to begin with. Their homelands are, by and large, screwed up. So why do we want to set up our Masajid here on the same model that caused our destruction over there? I can't figure it out. Ministers and Rabbis are considered authority figures in their respective communities and generally have the allegiance of most members. Our Imams are usually under-educated and have no authority with little backing from anyone. Some wealthy patron, pretending he knows how to be a Nasjid director, is almost always the real power in the Baitullah. And it's real hard to tell such a director that his local Muslim community is drifting away from the faith when he lives in a mansion and drives a Mercedes. He'll say to himself, "I made a fortune, therefore, I know what's best for the local Muslim community." Meanwhile, all around him, the youth are becoming kuffar, the women are forgetting Islam, the elderly are being abandoned in homes, the people who want to convert are disillusioned and the men are 'Eid Muslims only, if that. Everyone turns to the non-Muslim society for support, help, entertainment, money and even spiritual meaning. Until and unless we inject professionalism in our Masajid, then our community will continue to shrink even though pundits cry about there being six million of us. We need trained staff, even if you have to pay them. We need Imams with professional training in many subjects related to human relations and we need a process of inclusion that would make women, the youth and the luke-warm Muslims feel a part of the over-all life of our Masjid. In short, the Masjid is not just a place of prayer that we can build to heal our guilty feelings of doing haram business dealings- it's a place for Muslims and their lives. By its very nature and what it must mean for the community, it must be run professionally, and not like a club. |
| Re: Can Imams be Matchmakers? |
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| Rameeza |
| 11/25/02 at 12:09:28 |
| [slm] I think that my comment might have been misinterpretted. I did not say that the Imam should not help out the community, but that the community should not solely rely on him. I feel that doing so would lead to Imams being like priests, down the road. We will be imitating other comminities in the future. I think that since they are learned and are role models they should take interest in the community. But we, as comunity, should rely on our other resources too. This is why a strong family is recommended in Islam. Extended families too. Why become a nuclear family with an Imam for spiritual guidance etc. Why not use an Imam too but rely on family and relations too? I think Imams who do help their cmmunity in social affairs are doing it, to get extra dua and good deeds for themselves. I actually like it when the Imam is getting involved with his congegation. Especially when he has people who dont have family in the US but I don't know if we are right in condemning all Imams who dont do this. Plus, I feel that we should not completely rely on any one person. We should give others the chance to get hasana by helping us too. OUr grandparents, parents, relatives neighbors friends. On the whole I just feel that working with the community is the RESPONSIBILITY OF THE WHOLE COMMUNITY. No single person needs to carry this burden solely on their shoulders. That would make the rest of us slackers. Insha Allah, as I said before, I hope that all our married muslims and family and relatives will take a considerate but active role in helping these unmarried sisters and brothers. And the Imams being responsible members of our community might also help, where ever possible. If I am in error, may Allah forgive me. Salaams |
| Re: Can Imams be Matchmakers? |
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| zomorrud |
| 11/25/02 at 15:15:03 |
| Assalamu alaikum, Excellent article by br. Emerick. He hits the nail on the head. From my own experience, the confusion over the role of the masjid and imam is mostly in non-muslim countries. The issue of lack of authority and knowledge of imams in many mosques is not a joke. The stronghold of certain individuals (usually wealthy businessmen) in numerous mosques in N. America is disenchanting. There are many reasons, but most obvious is nepetism and cliqueness. Hopefully, the next generation of muslims will learn from this and do a better more professional job in the future. Sorry, this is not a direct reply to the original question. take care. Wassalam |
| Re: Can Imams be Matchmakers? |
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| oneway2paradise |
| 11/26/02 at 02:01:10 |
| [slm] Chris said: [quote]Why? It seems to have no logical reason. I get along fine with Muslim boys and girls, why can they get along fine with each other. Platonic relationships are just as interesting and as important as romantic ones. [/quote] Here is a hadith:Umar reported the Prophet [saw] saying, "Whenever a man is alone with a woman the devil makes a third." (Tirmidhi). (Ideal Woman in Islam. by Imran Muhammad). Women and men shouldn't even look at eachother or speak to eachother except for business purposes or necessity. Even then, they should avoid being together as much as possible. Allah has forbidden the mixing of men and women together except for certain family members. Allah knows His creation. [slm] |
| Re: Can Imams be Matchmakers? |
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| Anonymous |
| 11/29/02 at 06:46:33 |
| Asalaamu Alaykum, After reading all of the posts on this subject, I would like to add my two cents. I am speaking as a revert to Islam. It is terribly difficult to find a good brother in this day and age especially when you don't really have the extended family everyone else seems to have or because your not in the database of the 'aunties' because your not a member of whatever culture those 'aunites' are. Going to Imam which is supposed to be my Wali, is not an option either because he speaks little English and wouldn't understand the problem in the first place. So in that respect I think we do need Imams who are better able to handle problems that are exclusive to Muslims living in the States. The second issue I would like to raise is in regards to the article posted. I agree with all the author had to say. I know that for me and my small Muslim family (which consists only of my parents, and brother) we will have nothing to do on 'Eid, besides attend the prayer and the hang out at Chuckie Cheese or something along those lines. The community I live in is very clique-oriented and not very accepting towards people who have a culture other then their own. The Masjid should be trying to bring people together but they further seclude by having Jumma only in Urdu, by having all of the taleem only in Urdu ect. ect. It's very difficult to find friends in this atmosphere, and perhaps I would understand if the majority of the people had a limited knowledge of English but most of the people in this community are not lacking English skills. The board of directors just seems to be made up of rich Patels, Khans, and other names which were influential back home. (No offense intended towards anyone please.) But they do not have the skills to really help the community. Jazzak Allah for letting me ramble on. I'm sorry I didn't answer the original question. Asalaamu Alaikum... |
| Re: Can Imams be Matchmakers? |
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| jaihoon |
| 11/29/02 at 11:12:50 |
| [slm] Although not a direct reply to the topic of discussion, here is my two fils ;) In this part of the world where I live, there is hardly any bond between the Imam and the community. His role is made dry the extend of just leading the prayers. He is not given the authority to deal with any social issues. Most of the imams are only arabic speaking, whereas the majority of the people here are non-Arabic expats. The Imams are installed only if they are in conformity 'with the officla way of thinking' (as the saudi crown prince put it recently) This may not be the case in a non-islamic country where there is no one and only official way of Islamic thinking. Secondly, regarding matchmaking... I dont know abt the role of Imams, but i have discovered recently (by experience ;) ) the benefits of networking among friends, families among the community. I think this is very important for the social stability of the ummah. Allah knows best. |
| Re: Can Imams be Matchmakers? |
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| Leslie |
| 11/30/02 at 03:04:17 |
| [slm] I agree with our anonymous poster that it is incredibly difficult for someone who converts to Islam to find a spouse through the usual channels. Since I converted several years ago, there have been several instances where the possibility of someone marrying me has been dismissed outright because I don't belong to the 'correct' ethnic group. On the other hand, I have also been stopped in the middle of the street and accosted in the sister's section at the mosque by two over zealous fellows who saw my hijab, and the colour of my skin, and decided that they had to interupt whatever I was doing to propose. (My advice to all brothers out there is: If you want to marry someone, make sure that her first reaction to you isn't a great desire to flee ;) ). The disorganisation at the mosque is also incredible -- with no mahram to check out the brothers' section, I am having trouble even finding out what time Eid prayers are to be held, and talking to the imam on Fridays is difficult unless I feel like crossing the great divide and entering the brothers' section of the mosque, which I am normally too shy to do. Even if I were to see the imam, I'm not sure that the thought of talking to a strange man about finding a husband for me wouldn't be too overwhelming, and leave me standing mute in front of him, looking uncomfortably at the floor. I'm not convinced that he wouldn't be equally uncomfortable with the request. So, I can't really answer the question about whether or not imams can, or should be, matchmakers; all I can say is that unless I become determined (or desperate ;D ) enough to overcome my own shyness, I will have to try to find other halal ways of meeting people. [wlm] |
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