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Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| Would you sell out? |
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| elite_ansaar |
| 12/13/02 at 10:12:16 |
| Asalam-alaykum In regards to the current state of the Ummah, we have seen our leaders sell out to Kaafirs, by offering to do thier work, for incentives and rewards, such as large cash sums, places in power, Kingships etc, on the condition that these rulers would clamp down and crush any islaamic oppostion, surpress Islaamic public opinion and clamp down hard on anyone who showed any open support for Islaamic revival and for the Mujahideen. However thats on the large, world scale, but does this trickly down into everyday life? What i'm asking is would people be offered to turn agianst thier muslim brothers and sisters in small day to day issues if they were offered some cash incentives, such as if a donor said "i'll give you this much cash to buy a centre for muslims as long as you dont hold Quran classes and madrasses, or as long as you dont speak out against the rulers in muslim lands in this centre" etc etc? Would any muslims here be prepared to do that, or is that a form of appeasement and sell out? My stance on the issue is this. There is a famous Hadeeth which says: "If you see an evil, stop it with your hands, if you cannot, then speak out agianst it, and if you cannot do this, than hate it in your heart, and this is the weakest state of Iman" Would people be prepared to be pushed to the weakest state of Iman for cash rewards or worldly gifts? Maasalamah Ansaar |
| Re: Would you sell out? |
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| Abdullah |
| 12/13/02 at 18:30:20 |
| asalamu alaikum Its sad, but the question you ask is proven time and time again We sell out in subtle ways We see an ad, and we buy into something haraam, even like a R rated movie or something. And then we advertize it to other muslims and voila, we become unknowing facilitators of sin. We buy coke, we buy tomatoes (sadly, a lot of Toronto tomatoes are Israeli), we buy all their stuff... Other than that, selling out blatantly and knowingly? yeah people would do it... In Palestine, some muslims get paid by the Israeli government to spy on their families and neighborhoods... and imagine the dire situation they are in. That's on such a layman's scale, but such a perfect example. When people are desperate , or greedy, or afraid, or weak, they do it and do it easily. Sometimes "for their kids" or whatever, but they do. Muslims work for intelligence agencies, for newspapers, etc that destroy other muslim's lives... Heck, in Pakistan, I don't know how the police there willingly close down madrassas. For a little bit of coin. salaam |
| Re: Would you sell out? |
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| Kathy |
| 12/13/02 at 20:14:35 |
| [slm] I would hope I would say no way and not be tempted by the lure of money. People find themselves in all kinds of circumstances, and tests. For example, last month we had not received a paycheck in about 4 weeks. Money was gone and there was no food in the fridge and it was Ramadan. A lady who is on food "stamps" offered me a two for deal. If I gave her $25 she would give me $50 dollars of goverment money. I am surprised that I actually considered it. Alhumdullilah I didn't and Allah swt provided us with food for the rest of the month. You just never know how close you are to "selling out" your principles! |
| Re: Would you sell out? |
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| Traveler |
| 12/14/02 at 12:50:14 |
| [quote]What i'm asking is would people be offered to turn agianst thier muslim brothers and sisters in small day to day issues if they were offered some cash incentives,[/quote] Personally, I think it depends on two factors, who the the brother is that you're supposed to sell out on and how big is the incentive. If the incentive is large enough in proportion to the brother worth, yes I think it would be a wise choice to sell him out. But hey thats just me. |
| Re: Would you sell out? |
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| theOriginal |
| 12/14/02 at 15:27:23 |
| [slm] [quote]If the incentive is large enough in proportion to the brother worth, yes I think it would be a wise choice to sell him out.[/quote] Woah. I'd be interested in knowing how you define a brother's "worth" then. Of course, I understand, you're saying it would be a judgment call, indeterminable in present time and space. But since you made such a strange statement, I can only back it up with only stranger hypothetical scenarios. Like say, you're just in a really bad mood that day, or when you were kids, that brother stole your bike, and it's just time to get even, or you have a problem with the fact that he's just better off than you (remember, these are all hypothetical situations)....what then? Even you, because you are human, must hold some biases, and who's to say that those biases are justifiable in ANY manner? [quote]But hey thats just me.[/quote] And yeah hey! I do think it's just you. (kidding) Wasalaam. |
| Re: Would you sell out? |
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| Abdullah |
| 12/14/02 at 16:48:18 |
| [quote author=Traveler link=board=madrasa;num=1039792338;start=0#3 date=12/14/02 at 12:50:14] If the incentive is large enough in proportion to the brother worth, yes I think it would be a wise choice to sell him out. But hey thats just me.[/quote] With all due respect (however little I can give in regards to that comment), I think that's sad... Its EXACTLY that mentality that sells out, to be frank. I really hope you don't think like that, because who knows worth of a person but Allah SWT? And what incentive is great enough in going against a muslim? Either you have not explained yourself clearly, or what you say is as it seems and, you have given an affirmative response to the question asked in the subject of the thread. But hey, that's just me. |
| Re: Would you sell out? |
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| Traveler |
| 12/14/02 at 21:37:51 |
When I say brother, I mean it in the technical sense of the word. Anybody who claims to be a muslim is a brother, right? For example, lets take OBL, he's a brother. If I were in a situation where I had the opportunity to sell him out I would do it gladly, I wouldn't think twice. The service I would be providing humanity would be enough as an incentive. So I hope I was clear on what I meant by "worth" of a brother. As I had stated before, but hey thats just me. |
| Re: Would you sell out? |
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| Maliha |
| 12/15/02 at 06:50:50 |
| [slm] This is *NOT* to start a discussion about the merits/demerits of OBL but what do you know about him apart from what the Zionist/American/Propagandist Media has fed us??? Nothing. So I personally wouldn't judge a brother's worth in terms of our enemy's profiling on them :P Maliha [wlm] |
| Re: Would you sell out? |
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| jannah |
| 12/15/02 at 08:19:51 |
| [quote] Would people be prepared to be pushed to the weakest state of Iman for cash rewards or worldly gifts?[/quote] [slm] Of course some people would.. for some it may take money, for others peer pressure is enough, for some getting ahead in the dunya is enough to push them to secularize themselves from the deen, for some there are threats against their family and their life. I mean those shuyukh in "Muslim" countries, there are those who are jailed and there are those who aren't. I'm not prepared to judge those that aren't and say they "sold out", I think some of them are doing the best they can trying to spread Islam amongst the people. They know if they said something against the gov't they would be immediately jailed/tortured/killed and what's the point of that. At least they are doing their best otherwise. |
| 12/15/02 at 08:20:26 |
| jannah |
| Re: Would you sell out? |
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| Traveler |
| 12/15/02 at 09:23:17 |
| [slm] [quote]but what do you know about him apart from what the Zionist/American/Propagandist Media has fed us [/quote] You are absolutely right, I don't. I should have added, assuming he was all that he is said to be. I realize it was a bad example. And jannah makes a good point. There is a different angle I suppose we should take into consideration. |
| Re: Would you sell out? |
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| Sparrow |
| 12/16/02 at 12:11:39 |
| fret not, for soon I'll be on my way. Gender: Quote: "but what do you know about him apart from what the Zionist/American/Propagandist Media has fed us?" Hasn't he claimed responsibility for any # of terrorist attacks? How is that propaganda? Peace, Sparrow |
| Re: Would you sell out? |
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| bhaloo |
| 12/17/02 at 09:29:08 |
| [slm] [quote author=Sparrow link=board=madrasa;num=1039792338;start=0#10 date=12/16/02 at 12:11:39] Hasn't he claimed responsibility for any # of terrorist attacks? How is that propaganda? [/quote] Is it a terrorist attack? Or is he retaliating against a U.S. or Israeli terrorist attack? Do you agree that the U.S. and Israeili routinely conduct terrorist attacks against the people of the world? I dont think he's ever claimed responsibility for 9/11, at least from what I have read. I haven't read anything of his lately though. |
| Re: Would you sell out? |
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| Sparrow |
| 12/17/02 at 10:23:07 |
| I absolutely agree that the US and Israel routinely conduct terrorist attacks. Terror comes in many forms and is called many things from progress to retaliation to justified but in the end it mostly just boils down to murder. Peace, Sparrow PS: I thought OBL *had* claimed responsibility for 9/11 but could be 100 percent wrong. There's been so much blah blah blah about it on the news it's hard to remember. |
| Re: Would you sell out? |
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| Maliha |
| 12/17/02 at 13:52:01 |
| [slm] Aside from the obviously very fake tape they made of him with all the "evidence"...OBL never directly took responsibility for 9/11. So much for the U.S having soo much evidence, where is it? How come we haven't seen any of it? Maliha [wlm] |
| Re: Would you sell out? |
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| Sparrow |
| 12/17/02 at 14:24:57 |
| I don't know one way or another if OBL did take credit for it. I have no idea if he masterminded it, although if I were a bettin' gal I would say chances are he did. Hard for non Arabic speakers to know what is actually being said on these tapes. Didn't someone say Al Jazeera will be broadcasting in English in the future? I will say though that if the US or any other country put forth legitimate evidence against him it would surely be dismissed out of hand as "fake" or a US/Zionist plot or something to that effect without any consideration that it might actually be real. For some reason people seem to need to defend OBL from the "terrorist" label. I've never understood this because from what I can tell terrorists from the IRA to Hezbollah to Al Queda aren't hiding the fact that they *are* terrorists. That's their whole raison d'etre. I would be curious to know what it would take, short of OBL appearing on Jay Leno, to convince people that he masterminded 9/11? I mean this as a serious question. Peace, Sparrow |
| Re: Would you sell out? |
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| elite_ansaar |
| 12/19/02 at 10:46:48 |
| [slm] Traveler You'd seel your brother out!! :o Ok, but how much are you prepared to get for me? :P "This is *NOT* to start a discussion about the merits/demerits of OBL but what do you know about him apart from what the Zionist/American/Propagandist Media has fed us Nothing. " Nothing from the western media, but you will find a lot of good info on the Brother is you look in the right places ;) Theres a couple of books written by good muslim brothers on OBL, and the reality of his organisation. "I think some of them are doing the best they can trying to spread Islam amongst the people. They know if they said something against the gov't they would be immediately jailed/tortured/killed and what's the point of that." Thats a good point, but what if the consequence was not prison or torture, simply a cash incentive? "I thought OBL *had* claimed responsibility for 9/11 but could be 100 percent wrong. There's been so much blah blah blah about it on the news it's hard to remember" Blah Blah's a good way to describe the nonsense from the media, but may i point out OBL has never claimed responsibility for the attacks. "I would be curious to know what it would take, short of OBL appearing on Jay Leno, to convince people that he masterminded 9/11? I mean this as a serious question" 1) I've never heard of that show :) & 2) It would take a lot more than the US prosecution case of "he's guilty because we say he is" to convince us. As for if he really did do it, with all the lies and propoganda, i doubt anyone would believe anything anymore in regards to who was really behind the attacks. |
| Re: Would you sell out? |
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| se7en |
| 12/21/02 at 01:48:33 |
| as salaamu alaykum, [quote]Is it a terrorist attack? Or is he retaliating against a U.S. or Israeli terrorist attack?[/quote] Just to clarify... attacking America on 9/11 was *NOT* considered a legitimate "retaliation" by *any* legit scholar in the Muslim community. The attack was not in any way similar to the miltary tactics used by the Palestinians or others *in* places of warfare. This is according to scholars even like Sh. Qardawi who permit methods of warfare in Palestine that other find questionable. Again just a clarification. wasalaamu alaykum |
| Re: Would you sell out? |
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| Abdullah |
| 12/22/02 at 01:41:31 |
| [quote author=se7en link=board=madrasa;num=1039792338;start=15#16 date=12/21/02 at 01:48:33]The attack was not in any way similar to the miltary tactics used by the Palestinians or others*in* places of warfare. This is according to scholars even like Sh. Qardawi who permit methods of warfare in Palestine that other find questionable. Again just a clarification. [/quote] Just a slight clarification on your clarification. Palestine is not a place of warfare. War implies two armies, two forces of considerable equality in arms and threat, vying for personal interests. Denoting Palestine as a "warzone" would go to imply exaclty what Israelis want the world to see; they would love it if even muslims began calling that brutal, devilish, heartless, selfish occupation a "war", because it would justify measures used in war. It would imply two states or armies ("equals") descending upon each other; it would imply different rules of engagement. It would completely spit in the face of legitimate Palestinian resistance to a free and safe homeland, regardless of whether it was armed or not. The second largest army in the world pounding down on 800,000 unarmed civilians and their land and way of life does not, in any context, especially the UN context, imply even the slightest hint of a war. Furthermore, the Palestinians do not use "tactics of warfare"- suicide bombing, children throwing stones, an old father defending his children with a small pistol while soldiers armed to the teeth mow them down- is not warfare, its oppression. Clear and clear, as clear as oppression has ever been. I'm sure you meant that, but great care must be taken not to ever ever *ever* say that the Palestinians are in some sort of an organized vis-a-vis "clash"-war with Israel. It would just make us muslims fall right into Zionists' laps. I am sorry for the forcefulness, *its all good*, its just we gotta pick up for each other because someone not knowing could read it and get the wrong idea. PS. Even the UN Charters and Resolutions allow armed resistance in the face of illegal military occupation. PSS. Tons of scholars would never say that certain types of resistance are permissible to the public face because they are either afraid, conscious, or trying to be tactful, but inside, they know that its all fair game when soldiers hunt children with tank shells for fun. I've seen it, heard it, many times been that way even, and I don't believe its a great post-911 dawah move to portray our own brothers in Palestine as "extremists" (not that all disagreement with Palestinian resistiance is post-911 dawah or apologetically based). All of this I have said with the utmost of respect to the author of the statement, forgive me if I was at all harsh, and I am not trying to start a debate. Lets get to happier threads Insha'Allah. |
| Re: Would you sell out? |
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| Halima |
| 12/23/02 at 13:07:50 |
| In reference to "Terrorism", here is what Nelson Mandela said at the United Nations in New York recently: "Former South African President Nelson Mandela has said the word "terrorist" was a relative term". He said some people like himself once referred to as terrorists had gone on to become heads of state. "Those people who were referring to many of us as terrorists are now dealing with us as members of responsible governments, and therefore terrorism is a relative term", Mr. Mandela 83, said during a visit to the United Nations. "Those people who did not agree with your activities will label you a terrorist. But when you succeed, the same people accept you", he said. (Reuters). Yassir Arafat got a Nobel Peace Prize with Yitzhak Rabin. Today, Arafat is a terrorist. Yes, there are Muslims who sell fellow Muslims. The reason often vary. But for what ever reason a Muslim does this a fellow Muslims, it is despicable. Desperation and agreed are rampant in many Muslim countries. May Allah Subhana Wataallah guide us accordingly. Halima |
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