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Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| Women in Islamic Society |
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| desi_monk |
| 12/25/02 at 19:14:06 |
| AOA you all, Mashallah!! I am amazed to see such an organized discussion forum by and for the Muslim sisters. Congrats to the site team. I am a student of social sciences and one of my research interest is women in Islamic society. Here is my question. It seems to me that, as presented by the propogators of Islam, the role of women in Islamic society is basically a function of their marriage and family. From early socialization a woman is supposed to prepare for the fulfilment of this future job: serving husband and children. She learns to cook, sew, dress up to look attractive (of course for husband), learns proper manners, and how to train her children. After marriage she spends her whole life around this job. She is happy with her husband's and children's achievements and considers it to be her achievement. No doubt, family is the basic unit of society and the stronger the family, the more productive members (males) for other affairs of the society. This implies that women has only a background role in the Islamic society. Realistically looking at Muslim societies today, too much emphasis on this primary role and equal negligence to other potentials of women has confined women to her house job only and has made her much dependent on Men for outside activity. My question, how Islam visions women role in its ideal society? How much do you agree with the above observation and how much it matches with Islmic ideals? I would appreciate direct responses on the above questions instead of referrals to long erudite articles. Thanks. Desi |
| NS |
| Re: Women in Islamic Society |
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| jannah |
| 12/25/02 at 20:16:46 |
| I'm sure you didn't mean this but your post makes it sound like all a muslim woman's role is to be barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen!!! A Muslim woman's role is first and foremost to GOD and she fulfills this in various ways.. ie prayer, giving charity, going to hajj, teaching, learning, etc Raising her children and enjoying a good marriage is part of that as well, but not the sole goal of life. As for your question, how Islam visions women role in its ideal society?, the answer is to look at the women at the time of the prophet Muhammad peace be upon him. They were teachers, they worked in the home and outside of the home, they fought in the wars, they raised their families. Even the women of early Islamic history were authors, judges, poets, they were sought after teachers of islamic law, they built schools and foundations, they were amazing women, not relegated to only the role of wife and mother. Looking at Muslim societies today is pretty depressing.. how far we've come from an ideal laid out by the Quran and sunnah. You see some glimpses of the potential of Muslim women like in Syria how amazingly knowledgable some of the women are and how they prize scholarship, but unfortunately too rare. |
| Re: Women in Islamic Society |
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| desi_monk |
| 12/25/02 at 21:11:00 |
| AOA jannah, So as I understand from above, women in our ideal Islamic society are not limited to house only. They have a direct role in society. I take it that this is an independent role in the various affairs of any society for eample politics, economics, religion. Now, are there any limitations to it? For example reliance on 'Mahram' male. I know Islam allows women to have their own business. Now, if a woman wishes to run a business, does she require 'Mahram' male to communicate to Non Mahram customers, share holders, dealers, etc. Or she can do it directly with observing proper Hijab? Without doubt, I have Saudi laws in my mind where a women cannot even travel without a Mahram let alone doing business, but I do understand the difference between present "Muslim" societies and the Ideal "Islam" society. My above question is in regard to the Ideal Islamic society. I appreciate your response. Desi P.S. I have heard of Muslima poets, authors, but never heard of Judges. For information sake, could you name me some. |
| Re: Women in Islamic Society |
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| Aabidah |
| 12/25/02 at 21:48:57 |
| [slm] Desi, what you described in your first post, is a potrayal of women from the culturalistic perspective. When you look at the history of Islam, you will see that women were not treated as stated above. During the time of Prophet Muhammad [saw], women were given all the rights of man, they were allowed to own property, to inherit, to get an education, etc. Yes, they are the bearers of the family, but that doesn't mean that they are not allowed to do anything outside of the home. Over the decades, culture has become intermingled with the views of Islam. They have become so inter-related that sometimes one cannot distinguish between culture and religion. So, what you described above is the mixture of culture and religion, not only culture.....so first you have to distinguish between what is cutlural and what is religious....hope this has helped in any way.... [wlm] Betul |
| Re: Women in Islamic Society |
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| desi_monk |
| 12/25/02 at 21:58:20 |
| AOA Aabidah, Thats exactly I am trying to discern. And thats why I have been focusing on "ideal Islamic society" rather present Muslim condition. Still the questions raised in my last post remain at their place. You said, "women were given all the rights of man", is that really true. Or are there any limitations? Desi |
| Re: Women in Islamic Society |
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| se7en |
| 12/26/02 at 02:37:12 |
as salaamu alaykum, Here's a great article I'd recommend you to read: [url=http://www.jannah.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl/YaBB.pl?board=masjid&action=display&num=3874]The Rights of Women[/url] wasalaamu alaykum :-) |
| Re: Women in Islamic Society |
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| desi_monk |
| 12/26/02 at 18:28:55 |
| AOA Se7en, Thanks for sharing the article. It was long but indeed useful to me. However, this article mainly contrasted women rights with that of pre Islamic era and with the West. Without any doubt, no other source can provide the best system of rights and obligations to both men and women than the God sent religion, Islam. And I have a strong conviction in it, only that we need to discern its true teachings. The author of the article has tried best to portray a very active role of Muslima in society by doing careful selections of scholarly opinions and historical events. And indeed the author has succeeded to a certain extent. Though, his methodology begs the logical question, to what extent the later "Muslim" history can be taken as authority, as representing "Islamic" opinion. Also how much validity the author has retained when he took only the opinions that go in favor of what he wishes to prove, and not bothering to even fully mention the opinions of scholars with differing opinions, let alone contrasting them. However, instead of digging out the Muslim history (which is yet to be proven as authority) to find specific instances of women's right like the case of Asma, I tend to support those scholars whose methodology is that women can take part in every affair of society until specifically prohibited. It is a simple principle of Fiqh that is applied in many other places as well, for e.g. innocent until proven guilty. Yet, my questions still remain "how" these rights be achieved by women considering the limitations put on them in the name of Islam, after we have discussed "what" of those rights. There seem an apparent conflict between these rights and limitations on women (as I discussed in my second post). Is there really a coflict? I don't believe so. And I support, as one sister said, efforts to discern true Islam from cultural influences. Thats exactly what I am attempting in this thread. I would appreciate any specific response to the questions I raised in my second post. Desi |
| Re: Women in Islamic Society |
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| Kathy |
| 12/26/02 at 20:36:16 |
| [slm] I have been reading your comments with a bit of apprehension and then with a bit of wonder to what your real question is... or are you trying to fit the answer you already have in your mind to fit the question? What do you... DesiMonk... mean by limitations and rights... "Perception is reality." |
| Re: Women in Islamic Society |
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| desi_monk |
| 12/26/02 at 20:53:53 |
| AOA Kathy, I don't have "answers" on this issue. However, I do have some questions and opinions that I wanted to discuss. From the first post I have tried to make a distinction between what the present situation of Muslims is and what are ideals of Islam. Also to what its "propogators" claim to be the rights and role of women to what are there in reality. No body has so far said women should be confined to house, neither did I. Now if she has a direct, active role in society, I am interested to know "how" it is possible. Some one claimed that women have been given all rights of women, I take it to be that they have equal place in society. I questioned, is it really true, or are there limitations to that. The topic is more on role of women in society than on rights of women in society, though I know they can't be detached from each other. To avoid much abstraction, I have put a simple case before you all that is women doing business. Can she do it independently or she requires a male 'mahram' in each step of business affairs; in meetings, in dealings, etc? To reiterate, I have a strong conviction that Islam provides the best social system, only that there is need to discern it from cultural, personal influences. Desi |
| Re: Women in Islamic Society |
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| zeph |
| 12/27/02 at 00:51:55 |
| As-Salaamu-Alaikum, I first would like to make sure that I understand exactly what you're trying to ask. To my understanding, you want to know if your description and perception of the "perpetrators" is accurate and yet in line with our goal of an Islamic society("ideal"). Your question is not the easiest to answer, simply because of the way you have stated it. It flashes the red light of "Muslim women are submissive". Your ultimate statement of the portrayal of a Muslim women sent out signals of "they're only good for this", yet the duties you mentioned have truth to them and are of importance. Those duties are valuable and needed. They are the needs of society that will bring balance to community life. They are duties not to be taken lightly. The role of a Muslim woman that you described is correct. I also feel that that role is part of what we wish for in our "ideal Islamic society", b/c although it exists in other countries, there is a need for it in America. Now, correct me if I'm wrong ladies, but it is an "ideal Islamic society" for men to be the providers and the main ones to be in the public to maintain the business of society. A woman's core, domain is at home. She bears and raises productive, intelligent, god-fearing, and compassionate individuals. Our key role is taking care of home. We are not limited to that, though. We may participate in community life as well. In response to your example of a woman being able to run a business, which I guess you're asking how can she without a man? In an "ideal" Islamic society she should have a mahrm with her for her safety, protection, and to prevent unnecessary interaction. Why is that? To prevent any forbidden consequences such as flirting which can lead to further indecent acts. Our society is different, specifically here in the U.S. There is alot of interaction between male and female, and we have seen the negative results. We as Muslims might be reluctant to express the strict guidelines for male and female interaction, simply because many us are a part of or have assimilated into this culture. According, to the Qu'ran, I do not know the exact boundaries set for a Muslim woman's role. I feel that if you listen to what Allah(swt) asks of us and use pure common sense, you can define what your limitations are. I personally am looking forward to having a family, being an entrepreneur, and participating in the development of Islamic community life. My goals are to be based at home. I will interact with brothers, but I intend to strive to keep it at a minimum if possible. Believe me it is possible without going in "hiding". It is late, so forgive me if I have rambled a bit. I hope my response is helpful. Let me know if you need me to cite anything to prove my statements. |
| Re: Women in Islamic Society |
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| Kathy |
| 12/27/02 at 11:11:44 |
| [quote author=Desi Monk link=board=sis;num=1040862833;start=0#8 date=12/26/02 at 20:53:53]Now if she has a direct, active role in society, I am interested to know "how" it is possible.[/quote] I am a simple person, I have some Islamic knowledge and think I lead an Islamically correct way of life. So I can't get into fatwas but I can tell you about myself. I am very active in society. Once I held a management position, now I serve on a Board of Directors for a Goverment Childrens program, am a Public Speaker, Teach, a Breastfeeding Counselor, Volunteer at Schools and am a housewife! You ask how it is possible? Islam allows me to do this. Granted I am never alone with a man, when I go somewhere I take a friend with me. I find that Islam does not limit me but protects me in any adjustments I may have to make. In other words, it is like a father who tells his daughter when she goes out into the world: it is ok, just be careful and here are someways I can protect you. Now when I was young, I did not percieve the traps, ills, and evils that this society can offer a person. Islam's rules protect us. Now that I am older I can look back and see that if only I had applied some of its rules I would not have found myself in some of the predicaments that I did. [quote]Some one claimed that women have been given all rights of women, I take it to be that they have equal place in society. [/quote] Just from your questions I can tell that you are to smart to expect an answer to this. Â Equal? Common, what a debate trap.... the deffinitions of equal and its roles are way to varied and diversed! [quote]...are there limitations to that.[/quote] Wake up and smell the coffee! There are limitations in everything in society. Is there really freedom of speech? Is anything ever equal? What limits anything from equality. What you are asking is a debate of words and their meanings. Try wording your questions differently... hmmm.. this is not an assignment is it? [quote]Can she do it independently or she requires a male 'mahram' in each step of business affairs; in meetings, in dealings, etc? [/quote] What business is ever done alone? There is always a staff. No one does business alone. Even corporations frown on it in management 101. Too many sexual harrasment charges, or deal breakers because parties can not agree or lie to what was said privately in an office. The tone of these comments is of muse, not harshness. |
| 12/27/02 at 11:13:07 |
| Kathy |
| Re: Women in Islamic Society |
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| desi_monk |
| 12/27/02 at 14:18:09 |
| AOA zeph and kathy, I do hold that Muslim women in many Muslim countries have been oppressed just because we haven't understood role and rights of women given by Islam fully. The active role we see Muslim women playing in Western societies is because of the liberties given to women and other cultural pressure of these societies, not because we have discerned the role envisioned by Islam for women, not because Islamic "propogators" have outlined all the rights and role according to Islam. It is the culture that is making them participate this fully in society. This is substantiated from the prevailing culture most of the Islamic countries where women (and families) adhering strongly to Islam are supposed to limit to their houses and segregated gatherings only. I know things are changing but again as I said before it is due to pressure of Western liberties to women, otherwise, where this pressue is not felt, Muslim women don't even have the basic rights given to her, even at home, examples are honor killings, karokari in some areas of Pakistan, or female circumsicion in Sub Saharian region, all done in the name of Islam . Men sure are the providers and women are the caretakers of the family. I take it to be Islam granting financial independence to women not confining her to house, she can do business, own property, and gain inheritence. Now I don't agree with the other statement of males to take care of "public business" implying only males do it and thus stressing again that women should confined to their houses. I think, I need to know what you(zeph) mean by "public business" and how far it applies to economics, politics, education, and other institutions of society. As for the requirement of 'mahram' "for her safety, protection, and to prevent unnecessary interaction" I am trying to imagine how it will work, when our ideal Muslima in our ideal Islamic society is sitting at the position of judge, administrator, social worker, psychologist, economist, political activist, etc. I wonder, how it will work, suppose a woman who is well educated as a lawyer and women rights activist, but doesn't have any male 'mahram' available to her (for e.g. father/husband has died or not interested or busy at work). How would she do her "business". Now this is the dependency and limitations I have been referring to in my previous posts against freedom and independence. Not the kind that media has illuded today's women into. I guess I have made myself clear so far. This discussion has been helpful to me organizing my thought and gathering others opinion. Two more points and I am done. For "unnecessary interaction", it seems to be that many people take gender to be opposite poles. The interaction is a conflict of + and -- As I understand Islam considers men and women to be complacent (not polar opposite) to each other. This is not only at home, not just between husband and wife, but in society as well in all the institutions; education, economics, religion, politics, culture/media, of the society(1). Why consider only one kind of interaction possible between male and female. I would extend my assertion, this complacency is applied, as I understand, even in the case that the interaction will serve as a means of getting to know each other (am i referring to ISNA youth gathering :-X ), ending at love and finally at marriage, but, of course this is not the sole purpose of male female interactions in society. As for the notions of male 'mahram' required, I consider it to be due to consideration of our present culture and society; I mean the way there is interaction between male and female, the intimidatingly it is propounded in media, and also due to immoralistic values prevailing in society. But in our ideal Islamic society, as I understand, not only there will be less intimidation and more moral values prevailing in society, but also Islamic state will provide means for mainating law and order and protection to its citizens. Why should always women subdue and step back. They have already put on hijab, now I think there is part that has to be done by males, culture, and government to protect her instead of limiting her, her potentials, abilities at home. The point is, for a while looking at present, it might be required or adviced that women should be accompanied by "protectors" but in principle, Islam doesn't put this kind of limitation on women. And in this, she is as equal as men are, participating freely and independently in society like Kathy does :) Keep it up. Desi (1) (009.071) Subhanallah, look at the beauty of the below verse, how succintly Islam has provided guideline for the issue under discussion. YUSUFALI: The Believers, men and women, are protectors one of another: they enjoin what is just, and forbid what is evil: they observe regular prayers, practise regular charity, and obey Allah and His Messenger. On them will Allah pour His mercy: for Allah is Exalted in power, Wise. PICKTHAL: And the believers, men and women, are protecting friends one of another; they enjoin the right and forbid the wrong, and they establish worship and they pay the poor-due, and they obey Allah and His messenger. As for these, Allah will have mercy on them. Lo! Allah is Mighty, Wise. SHAKIR: And (as for) the believing men and the believing women, they are guardians of each other; they enjoin good and forbid evil and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, and obey Allah and His Messenger; (as for) these, Allah will show mercy to them; surely Allah is Mighty, Wise. |
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| Emerald |
| 12/27/02 at 21:39:27 |
| [slm] I was reading all the posts and was wondering why sometimes people make the simplest matters so complicated. ::) Islam was made easy for us by Allah (swt) and we should see it that way. The rules set are for our protection. Now I'm no scholar and May Allah (swt) forgive me if I am wrong (and if there is anyone more knowledgable please correct me) but, as a Muslim woman I know the rights given me are to work in an environment that has no mixing of the sexes (because the shaitan finds his way between the two), to own my own business, have my own money which I personally must pay zakat for, get an education because the first word in the Quran is Iqraa', to ask for divorce with just cause, and to disobey my husband if he does something that is Islamically unlawful. I also have the right to refuse a man who asks for my hand in marriage. I can travel to the far ends of the earth if I wish but I must have a mahram to aid me if troubles should arise because as a Muslimah I'm put upon a pedastal and shouldn't put up with worries. I have the right to go to the masjid if I wish and pray along side men during hajj. Basically I can do ANYTHING that is lawful with modesty. BUT out of all the things I CAN do, the greatest thing is be a mother because as Muhammad (pbuh) said, Heaven is beneath the mother's feet. That's because she is everything. She is the one that makes boys into great Muslim men and girls into the backbone of every great Muslim man. I could say so much more but my point is if you want to know if it's permissable for a woman or not , ask yourself..is there a risk of losing honor or modesty in any way? If not, it's permissable. Wa Allahu Alam. Emerald |
| Re: Women in Islamic Society |
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| sofia |
| 12/28/02 at 14:31:43 |
| As-salaamu 'alaikum wa rahmatullah, Desi Monk Admittedly, I haven't read all of the posts in this thread, but one thing I noticed you keep mentioning is the issue of a woman's "mahrem." Just for clarities sake, most of the scholars are in agreement that a woman needs a mahrem to travel a certain distance (actually, I believe it's a timeframe of two nights, someone pls correct me if I'm wrong). There is even an opinion (of scholars, not your every-day Joe, like you or I), that a woman can travel in a group of righteous women, if their is no available mahrem (might be a minority opinion). However, for everday matters, there's less of an issue in whether or not a woman needs a mahrem to be around her 24-7. Actually, there's definitely not a consensus pointing to that, so I'm not sure if it's even an issue, Allahu'Alim. The women during the time of the Prophet (s) were not ordered to stay indoors (except his wives, and the women of his household, but even they could leave the house with a mahrem). And the "restrictions" pertaining to needing a mahrem focus mainly around travelling, wAllahu'Alim. Every Muslim (male or female) must take care not to subject themselves to haraam/unsafe environments. Allahu'Alim/God knows best |
| 12/28/02 at 14:38:51 |
| sofia |
| Re: Women in Islamic Society |
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| sista |
| 12/28/02 at 20:42:04 |
| [slm] [quote]if you want to know if it's permissable for a woman or not , ask yourself..is there a risk of losing honor or modesty in any way? If not, it's permissable. Wa Allahu Alam. [/quote] Nicely put, sis Emerald :) Mashallah! [wlm] |
| Re: Women in Islamic Society |
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| zeph |
| 12/29/02 at 02:17:10 |
| ASA, Nicely stated, Emerald. I have nothing else to add. Except to quickly answer Desi's question of me. My definition of "public business" are the jobs men take to provide for their family. Being that the responsibility is laid upon them to be the breadwinner, they are going to be the main ones out in the public. It just so happens that the fields that provide them with jobs are in economics, politics, etc. Never did I say that a woman is confined to the home and cannot contribute ideas, concepts, and actions of these fields. Yes we can partake and be recognized for such contributions. I just tried to emphasize that our first responsibility is to take care of home. Does that not stand correct? And I'm just making sure that you hold that in high regard along with being a respectable female judge, effective social worker, accurate economist, passionate political activist. Home is first. More women here in the west need to understand that, too. When your home is taken care of, you can then go out and make these remarkable contributions. Allah(swt) does not hold us back from that, but it is just as and maybe even more remarkable to raise up a beautiful god-fearing family. When you read the Qu'ran, do you feel limited to do anything? What is making you feel so limited to do these things you mention. If you are a lawyer and your client is a male...try to have an assistant with you to prevent a bad situation. Simple as that. In addition, you brought up my statement about preventing unnecessary interaction. Stating that Islam tends to only consider one type of interaction. Let me break it down (and I know you know this). There is a natural attraction between male and female. A special attraction that is only lawful for bonding through marriage. When there is idle time, unnecessary chit chatting, and if you're with someone you're physically attracted to, feelings will stir up and if you're not the strongest individuals, there can be unlawful consequences. Trust me, I can bear witness. If you're just handling business, cool... I trust that you're on the righteous path. It's all about precautions, that's all. By the way, Desi, what exactly are trying to prove. I'm assuming you're just trying to understand why all of the "extras" with women and not men. Allah(swt) made us different to balance each other, compliment each other. Believe me, we're equal. And to think I had nothing to add...sorry guys got carried away. |
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