[brothers intimidated by hijab?]

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[brothers intimidated by hijab?]
Anonymous
01/05/02 at 01:58:00
so whats up w/bros that are intimidated by sisters in hijaab?
a friend of mine (a sister) was told by possible prospective in laws at
the time that their son wasn't interested bc she wore hijaab and sadly
enough i have heard this time and time again. many bros (not the ones
on this board tho of course! :-) ) think sisters are 'too religious' if
they wear hijaab, what's going onnnnnnn??!!!!!!!
Re: [brothers intimidated by hijab?]
NewJehad
01/05/02 at 10:16:16
If a man prevents his wife from covering he has become a kaffar and the marriage has ended.
This is some thing the people don't like to be mentioned, but it must be, because if the "wife" stays with him she is fornicating with him because he is no longer a Muslim so not her husband any more.
This is a action of major kufr like bowing to a idol. When it is done it can be taken that the person who did it has declared himself a disbeliever. Allah only knows if he is a disbeliever in his heart, but for resons of marriage and inheritence we can use actions such as the above .
Re: [brothers intimidated by hijab?]
Enayath
01/05/02 at 12:30:09
As Salaam Alai Kum,

I just have one question,
Where were these kind of people when I wanted to get married, I searched amd searched but to no avail. Anyway, I think it is very commendable that a girl wants to wear it, and the propective boy is having second thoughts, I would say 'Shame on you who rejects a girl for wearing a Hijaab'
Just my 2 cents.

Wa Salaam
Re: [brothers intimidated by hijab?]
siddiqui
01/05/02 at 13:06:22
Assalam alikum

Well i have heard it  both  ways  the  guy and the inlwas  rejecting the proposal  saying  that the  girl is wearing a  hijab

and a  much  more common thing  least from where I come  from (India)
the  girl and the inlwas  rejecting the proposal  saying  that the  boy has a  beard and  if its  tad longer than  a stubble people go on a  naming spree like fanatic, moulvi, mullah conservative..........
oh boy its a sure  no no



The thing is we have  moved  away from the essence of deen so much(though some  might argue  hey we  pray every day.....) that we are ashamed of our identity, we are  ashamed of  being called  muslim,
some times  we are  ashamed of being associated with them socially
let alone  give our br/sr in marrige

So unless we  learn to take  pride in our deen  we will continue
to face  situations like these
Re: [brothers intimidated by hijab?]
alzinjibar
01/05/02 at 15:44:30
Bismillah Rahman Rahim, wa salatuhu wa salam ala'a Rasul Karim
salam alaykum
Subhn'Allah what a world we leave in and as the Chinese saying curse goes " May you leave in Interesting Times". Tell the sister that she deserve someone better then him, no matter what attracted her to him if that is the case. She should be Patient and seek help in Sabr and Salat and above all have Trust in Him(SWT) alone,for He(SWT) will provide for her someone who will know how to cherish and treat her right. No wonder our predecessors (RA) used to say " marry you girl to a Ta'qi for if he love's her , he will treat her right and if he dislike her he will not harm her, and marry your son to a woman of Din" .
Pz Bro NewJehad you have no right to call someone a Kafir unless
1 - you have gone through extensive islamic training and have been qualified by a panel of Ulemas.
2 - you know the man so well as to know beyond the shadow of a doubt that he made an act big enough to legitimaze your word.
3 - Even the Ulemas are afraid to make such a statement,
So pz bro , repent to your Creator (swt) and how about changing your approach and making dua for your bro who have err out of lack of knowledge and ignorance, so that he might be guide to the Truth. Wouldn't you want to be given a chance if you went wrong somewhere to amend for the wrong you did ?
Jazak'Allah khayr
Re: [brothers intimidated by hijab?]
NewJehad
01/05/02 at 15:54:08
And no one has the right to call a kaffar a Muslim.
When a father forbids his son from praying or his wife from covering. as far his wife can not have sex with him, people cant inherit from him, he can not be burried in a muslim cemitary until he repents and removes by retracting this kufr. Allah only knows what is in his heart, but people have to know whether they are still married and who to pray behind.
Re: [brothers intimidated by hijab?]
jannah
01/05/02 at 15:52:54

[quote]If a man prevents his wife from covering he has become a kaffar and the marriage has ended.
[/quote]

slm,

uhh jehad where's your evidence for this....falling out of the fold of islam is a BIG thing...not to be taken lightly...
Re: [brothers intimidated by hijab?]
NewJehad
01/05/02 at 16:04:41
slm Sister jannah
Yes it is a very big thing.
When some one calls him self a christion or forbids people from obeying Allah's laws, people are not declared him kaffar, he has declared himself.

What it is is changing Allah's laws.
When some one forbids what allah has ordered then he has changed Allah's deen. Whether he is a ruler, father or husband.
This is a action of major kufr and there is complete consenses on it. No ulima will disagree with this, even the really doggy ones.
The exceptions are stuff like, insanity, compulsion, ignorence etc. basicly the same exemptions as some one calling himself a Christian.

When alims explain this they often refer to the fact the Christians and jews worship their preast and their rabis by excepting things they make lawful and allah forbids and rejecting things allah has made lawful and the preasts and rabis have forbiden.
Re: [brothers intimidated by hijab?]
siddiqui
01/05/02 at 18:19:16
Thats your analogy and i dont agree with it. We shouldnt be calling muslims kafir for its a grave sin in itself and there are a lot of ahadith relating to this

There is fundemental diffrence  between a christian  and the  man preventing his wife from wearing hijaab

Its the Tauheed

Its a diffrent thing that he is not obeying Allah swt

That is between Allah and  his  Abd

Calling such a man kaffir is really going out of our realms for we arent the judges of Imaan and  Kufr,its not our job  not our prerogative on the day judgment  each one of us is going to stand  in front of Allah swt with our deeds n misdeeds


I agree the person is wrong and  must be advised with hikmah and  may be  even chastised But calling him a  kaffir is a diffrent ball game
Re: [brothers intimidated by hijab?]
kiwi25
01/05/02 at 19:12:52
salam,

new jehad --

when a muslim women removes her hijab because of her husband, this is not considered kufr, therefore you cannot call this MUSLIM man a kaffir.....

he can still repent to Allah (SWT), and they do not have to get a divorce...

there are many factors to consider....

in sociaties like turkey where islam is being downsized by the govt and hijabis are taken to jail left and right... the hubby may feel fear for his wife, and if he were poor, he may not have the money to take his family to a better place?

allahu alim... only Allah(SWT) has the power to call someone kaffir or muslim, because only HE (SWT) knows what is happening in peoples hearts and minds

wasalam
nouha:)
Re: [brothers intimidated by hijab?]
akbalkhan
01/05/02 at 21:46:20
As Salamu Alaykum,

I know that Bro. New Jehad can be blunt at times but I just cannot see someone coming to the defence of this guy and/or his wali who refused the nikah of a woman on account of her hijab.  In terms of her rights to follow the compulsory aspects of al-Islam, I would rather focus on her rights, the ignorant mans' state of iman, than Bro New Jehads ability to call him kafr or not.  We do not know the level of Bro New Jehad's ilm or iman, but what we do know of the situation as described, nothing more or less, clearly puts this hijabi hating guy and his wali in a state of disbelief (until/unless they repented) for truly the traditions point to this state for those who deny compulsory acts in al-Islam without regard to aspect of obligation, great or small:

Volume 2, Book 23, Number 483:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

When Allah's Apostle died and Abu Bakr became the caliph some Arabs renegade (REVERTED TO DISBELIEF) (Abu Bakr decided to declare war against them), 'Umar, said to Abu Bakr, "How can you fight with these people although Allah's Apostle said, 'I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight the people till they say: "None has the right to be worshipped but Allah, and whoever said it then he will save his life and property from me except on trespassing the law (rights and conditions for which he will be punished justly), and his accounts will be with Allah.' " Abu Bakr said, "By Allah! I will fight those WHO DIFFERENTIATE BETWEEN the prayer and the Zakat as Zakat is THE COMPULSORY RIGHT to be taken from the property (according to Allah's orders) By Allah! If they refuse to pay me even a she-kid which they used to pay at the time of Allah's Apostle . I would fight with them for withholding it" Then 'Umar said, "By Allah, it was nothing, but Allah opened Abu Bakr's chest towards the decision (to fight) and I came to know that his decision was right."

If the man was considering the nikkah in the first place, and then makes it known openly that he rejected it based upon the womans adherence to the commands of Allah SWT, then his rejection of that command may be equivalent to the rejection of Allah SWT.  In either case, the mans' state as Kafr or Mu'min, is in question, and it is just as dangerous to try and lesson the criticism of such an act of blatant disregard for Allah SWT's command, as it may be to call him a Kafr.  Please refer to following hadith:

Book 19, Number 3076:
Narrated AbudDarda':

The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: If anyone takes land by (paying) its jizyah, he renounces his immigration; AND IF ANYONE TAKES OFF THE DISGRACE OF AN UNBELIEVER from his neck HE TURNS AWAY HIS BACK FROM AL-ISLAM. He (the narrator) said: Thereafter Khalid ibn Ma'dan heard this tradition from me, and he said: Has Shubayb narrated it to you? I said: Yes. He said! When you come to him, ask him to write this tradition to me. He said: He then wrote it for him. When I came, Khalid ibn Ma'dan asked me for the paper and I gave it to him. When he read (the paper), he abandoned the lands he had in his possession the moment he heard this.

We should be just as concerned to defend someone who potentially takes themselves outside of al-Islam, as we are about calling someone a kafr.

Regards,

Qamar Akbal Kaan
Re: [brothers intimidated by hijab?]
Saleema
01/05/02 at 23:44:48
[slm]

Oh man...here we go again.. quoting ahadith left and right.

[wlm]
Re: [brothers intimidated by hijab?]
se7en
01/13/02 at 23:34:27
as salaamu alaykum,

Brother New Jehad:

[quote]If a man prevents his wife from covering he has become a kaffar [/quote]
This is not true.  What makes someone a kafir is clearly described in the sharia.  There are particular nawakidul Islam, particular things that 'undo' your Islam and take you outside of the faith.  A naqid - an act of kuffr that 'undoes' your Islam - is a *rejection* of what Allah has established as arkaan, and/or a *denial* of that which Allah has prescribed in the sharia.

Committing a sin, or encouraging someone else to sin, does not make you a kafir.  Undoubtedly, preventing your wife from following a law of Islam is a sin, but this does not necessarily take you outside the fold of Islam.  Again, what makes you a kafir is the *denial* that the commission/omission of an act is a sin when you know better. *

[quote]This is some thing the people don't like to be mentioned, but it must be, because if the "wife" stays with him she is fornicating with him because he is no longer a Muslim so not her husband any more. [/quote]
For some reason this reminds me of the verse in Surah Noor that warns against accusing good women of zinna.


Brother QAK:

[quote]but I just cannot see someone coming to the defence of this guy and/or his wali who refused the nikah of a woman on account of her hijab. [/quote]
Who's coming to his defense?  I don't think anyone here has voiced approval at the idea of a man refusing marriage to a woman because she strives to obey Allah.

What people take issue with is calling your brother or sister in Islam a kafir based on ignorance or misunderstanding the sharia.  

Takfeer is no joke and it should not be toyed with.

[quote]We do not know the level of Bro New Jehad's ilm or iman, [/quote]
No one here is judging the brother's eman.  But when he says something incorrect, on a public forum, it needs to be corrected.

[quote]Volume 2, Book 23, Number 483: [/quote]
These people had "reverted to disbelief" because they *denied* the zakah was obligatory.  

[quote]If the man was considering the nikkah in the first place, and then makes it known openly that he rejected it based upon the womans adherence to the commands of Allah SWT, then his rejection of that command may be equivalent to the rejection of Allah SWT.  [/quote]
This is not true.  A man can say "I do not want to marry a woman who wears the hijab" and still be a Muslim.  Does this make the statement any less distasteful, does it make the brother any less short sighted, foolish, or wrong?  No.  But making such a statement does *not* make him a kafir.

[quote]We should be just as concerned to defend someone who potentially takes themselves outside of al-Islam, as we are about calling someone a kafr. [/quote]
Of course.  We should also be careful about misinterpreting texts by reading them without understanding their context, or making statements without being qualified to make them.

wAllahu a'lam.  

May Allah, the Most Merciful, forgive us for the words we speak in haste or without knowledge.

wasalaamu alaykum wa rahmatAllah



* - There are some specific, particular actions that invalidate your eman even without rejection/denial.  However, for the most part, committing a sin does not make you a kaafir, and that nullification of eman does not apply in this case.
Re: [brothers intimidated by hijab?]
kiwi25
01/06/02 at 10:42:42
salam,

i thank Allah (SWT) for giving us se7en!!!

wasalam
nouha:)
Re: [brothers intimidated by hijab?]
Arsalan
01/06/02 at 13:25:13
[slm]

The following is an excerpt taken from Imam Al-Nawawi's (d. 676/1277 C.E.) [i]Manual of Islam[/i].  May Allah have Mercy on the Imam's soul:



A Warning Against Careless Accusations of Unbelief:

(Muhammad 'Alawi al-Maliki: ) Many people error, may Allah correct them, in understanding the real reasons that put a person beyond the fold of Islam and necessitate that he be considered an unbeliever ...

There is scholarly consensus (ijma') that it is unlawful to charge with unbelief anyone who faces Mecca to pray, unless he denies the Almighty Creator, Majestic and Exalted, commits open polytheism that cannot be explained away by extenuating circumstances, denies prophethood, or something which is necessarily known as being of the religion, or which is [i]mutawatir[/i] (i.e. the Koran, or those hadiths which like the Koran have been related by whole groups of individuals from whole groups, in multiple contiguous channels of transmission leading back to the Prophet (pbuh) such that sheer number of separate channels at each stage of transmission is too many for it to have been possible for all to have conspired to fabricate them, and which are thereby obligatory to believe in and denial of which is unbeliev (kufr)), or which there is scholarly consensus (ijma') upon its being necessarily known as part of the religion.  [i]Necessarily known[/i] means such things as the oneness of Allah, the attributes of prophethood, that prophetic messengerhood has ended with Muhammad (pbuh), the resurrection on the Last Day, the Final Reckoning, the recompense, and paradise and hell - the denier of any of which is an unbeliever, and which no Muslim has an excuse for ignorance of, unless he is a new convert to Islam, who is excused until he can learn, but not afterwards.  

To judge a Muslim an unbeliever for anything besides the above is a very dangerous thing, as has come in the hadith,

"If someone says to his fellow Muslim, 'You unbeliever,' one of them deserves the name" [Bukhari, Muslim]

It is not valid for such a judgement to proceed from anyone except someone who knows the things that involve unbelief from those that acquit one of it in the light of the Sacred Law, and the strict demarcation between faith and unbelief according to the standards of the Law of Islam.  It is not permissible for any human being to rush onto the field and charge another with unbelief on the basis of opinions and imaginings without having checked and made sure, without firm knowledge.  

... Because of this, we urge the utmost caution, in other than the above-mentioned cases, against careless accusations of unbelief, for they are extremely dangerous.  And Allah guides to the best of ways, and unto Him is the final destination ([i]Mafahim yajibu an tusahhaba[/i] (9.15), 5-7).

Re: [brothers intimidated by hijab?]
BroHanif
01/06/02 at 13:51:21
AWW,

[quote]Oh man...here we go again.. quoting ahadith left and right.[/quote]

I agree sis Tiddlywinks, quite sad to see something like this, this is how the muslim ummah are being destroyed. Instead of working together as one, we do the opposite. WE've got so many scholars nowadays..man its scary.

[quote]A man can say "I do not want to marry a woman who wears the hijab" and still be a Muslim.  Does this make the statement any less distasteful, does it make the brother any less short sighted, foolish, or wrong?  No.[/quote]

Hmm I'm not quite sure about this Sis Se7en, what about the verse that says.. "And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and be modest, and to display of their adornment only that which is apparent, and to draw their veils over their bosoms, and not to reveal their adornment. And turn unto God together, O believers, in order that ye may succeed". (Qur'an, An-Nur-24: 31)

The brother may be wrong in that sense,but if he disbelieves in the Quran or that section of the Quran about the hijaab, then I guess it would be on very serious grounds. May Allah save us from such days.

salaams

Hanif
Re: [brothers intimidated by hijab?]
akbalkhan
01/06/02 at 17:43:53
Wa Lakum As Salam,

Sr. Se7en, Abu Fatimah you are absolutely right, and I apologize to all who read my posts and think the same thing, about rushing headlong into interpretting ahadith, it is dangerous, and surely it has the Ummah down a path of dissent.  But I beg that you consider that I may be referring to amir's and sheikhs on particular issues, and that just because I post an opinion, along with ahadith to support, it does not mean that I am the only one who believes this.  I think it is safe to say that we all have our imams and scholars who we turn to for guidance and explanation, and truly it is their inability to reach an effective and definitive conclusions that has so many of us disagreeing as well.  I will try to keep in mind that it is better to discuss with you all issues, and not try to win the discussion, than risking eveyone's ability to be patient and responsive as well.

I thought that I was being clear about it being equally dangerous to call someone kafr, as to defend a kafr to fellow Muslim/ah, and that my quoting the hadith referring to the refusal to pay Xakat, exemplified that it does not matter in the least, which of the commands of Allah SWT one is refusing( in this case the command of hijab for women).  May Allah SWT make clearer to us the importance of all the commands, and the necessity for belief in each of them, insha'Allah.

Regards,

Qamar Akbal Kaan

Re: [brothers intimidated by hijab?]
Rashid
01/07/02 at 00:06:56
[slm]

Can the administrators please do something about the takfir being done on this board?  As if there is not enough fitnah nowadays, now brothers are doing takfir with no clear evidence.  Just because someone posted about a sister not being accepted for marriage because of hijab does not make the rejector a kaafir.  Perhaps the brother is a cultural Muslim or has some other reason.  We need to make istaghfar and cease from such acts.  

[wlm]
Re: [brothers intimidated by hijab?]
humble_muslim
01/07/02 at 13:26:08
AA

Time to vent out...

Well said Rashid.  It's strange how Jehad, who is constantaly referring to certain people as Khawarij, is now doing one of the acts of the Khawarij themselves : declaring people as kafir because of committing a major sin.

I know some people who disapprove of their wife's wearing hijab.  Are they kafir ? THAT IS NOT FOR ME TO JUDGE. I will still meet them, give them salam, and talk to them kindly.  Why ? Because if I treat them like kafirs, chances are that they will go completely outside the pale of Islam.

And if we take your argument further Jihad, we should declare kufr on those muslims who watch porno movies or look at porno mags.  How about those muslims selling porno mags ? How about muslims selling alcohol ? Are all these people disobedient muslims or kaafirs ? Where do you draw the line ?   How about never starting a line in the first place ?

There is a reason I call myself the humble muslim.  Itis because I USED to be an arrogant, know it all <_____>, despising and criticing anyone not up to my standard.  I learnt the hard way that this gets you nowhere.

We live in tough times, where the mixture of ignorance about Islam, the influence of living in the west, the mixture of culture and Islam, the preponderance of Shirk and Bidah amongst the muslims, and many other reasons, has left the vast majority of muslims far, far away from the true path.  We should be crying because of this, and not labelling the ones who have deviated.  The man who prevents his wife from wearing a hijab, on the Day of Judegemtn, could turn around to any of us and say we did not teach him properly : and then we, too, will be responsible.

To get back to the original point, IHMO it is absoultely CRUCIAL to the happiness of a marriage that the girl and the boy be at the same level of tawqa, whether this is high or low.  So a woman who does not currently wear a hijab should not get married to a man who wants his wife to wear a hijab; and a woman who wears a hijab should get married with a man who wants her to wear a hijab.  Otherwise, the marriage is going to be fraught.  So my advice to the sister, is say Alahamdolillah, forget about him, and wait for Mr. Right to Inshallah appear.
NS
Re: [brothers intimidated by hijab?]
Rashid
01/07/02 at 17:08:35
[slm]

[quote]We live in tough times, where the mixture of ignorance about Islam, the influence of living in the west, the mixture of culture and Islam, the preponderance of Shirk and Bidah amongst the muslims, and many other reasons, has left the vast majority of muslims far, far away from the true path.  We should be crying because of this, and not labelling the ones who have deviated.[/quote]  

alhamdulilah, this is exactly my point.  Those of us who are striving to be on the straight path HAVE TO give dawah to those who are deviating or going astray.  There is no discussion about this.  On the day of judgement when we are called to account, and Allah asks "what did you do about the ones among you who deviated?"  would you rather say "I made duah for him, I spoke to him, I gave him advice"  or "I rejected him, I called him kaafir, I left him on his own"?  We should be merciful on others so that Allah may be merciful to us.  

[slm]
Re: [brothers intimidated by hijab?]
mujaahid
01/09/02 at 08:09:48
Assalaamu-alaikum

I've never come across a bro who specifically wants a wife who does NOT wear hijab! Most bro's, even the dodgy ones, all want to marry women who are islaamic and wear hijab.

I dont know about others, but the ones i know are like this! Hijab signifies class, and honour. And all men want thier wife to have class and honour!
Re: [brothers intimidated by hijab?]
Anonymous
01/09/02 at 18:10:55
Assalaamu alaikum - I once had an Arab man whom I was
speaking to about marriage, say that he didn't think I should wear hijab
because people in the U.S. look at women in hijab funny (he specifically had
witnessed events) - he thought it was fine in places with big Muslim
populations, say in Arab countries, but not here. I disagreed on that and
other matters (and I didn't marry him), but I understand that he isn't
WRONG to say that people look at me funny. Some people do. If he
wouldn't be comfortable with having their wife be humiliated by others, then
I can understand why he would be reluctant to actually have to watch
people looking at her and judging her. Does this mean that not wearing
hijab is the answer? I personally don't think so, but I think this is
what we're dealing with. Not people who hate Islam but people who just
aren't comfortable with feeling different in a negative way.

And, really, if so many women talk about how hard it is to wear hijab,
or how hard it was to begin to cover, then we have to understand that
there is something similar that some men feel about it too. It doesn't
make them evil, though.
Re: [brothers intimidated by hijab?]
Anonymous
01/09/02 at 18:11:28
[slm]

Please be careful, as Se7en said.  We have absolutely no indication in
the original post that the brother in question does not believe that
hijab is mandatory.  Since we do not know what is in his heart, I think
that we can only claim that he is encouraging sin but certainly not that
he disbelieves.

In any case, shouldn't our first responsability be to give da'wah and
convince the brother in question that he is in error, rather than
condemning a stranger on a public forum.  It is a sin to say such thing of a
fellow muslim, and if we are to believe the hadith already quoted
above, the person doing the accusing risks falling into kufr through the
utterance of unjust accusations.  

We should try to think the best of our fellow muslims, and find as many
excuses for their behaviour as possible, not accuse people we have
never met of disbelief.

To the person who started this thread:  Someone will come along who
appreciates your efforts to fulfil your din, in sha'a allah.  Chances are,
if you surround yourself with women who, like yourself, wear hijab and
hold similar opinions to your own, you (or rather your wali) will be
approached by someone who will be acceptable to both of you.

[wlm]
Re: [brothers intimidated by hijab?]
se7en
01/13/02 at 23:44:35
as salaamu alaykum,

After speaking to someone knowledgeable on the subject, I made a correction to my post.  Originally it said that the only deed a person can commit that would nullify his/her eman is complete neglect of the salah (according to the majority of scholars).  However, I've come to know that there are indeed certain other deeds that can nullify your eman, so I changed that part of my post.

The general rule remains the same, though, that committing a sin like not wearing the hijab, or not wanting your wife to wear the hijab, does not make you a kafir.  (this is with acknowledgement that it is something obligatory)

Some words to remember by Rasulullah [saw]:

[color=black]"Whoever attributes kuffr to a believer, he is like his murderer."  [i]-- Tirmidhi[/i] [/color]

wAllahu a'lam.

wasalaamu alaykum wa rahmatAllah

Re: [brothers intimidated by hijab?]
Abd_Allah
01/16/02 at 06:41:33
Assalaamu Alaykum

Sis Se7en- I was gonna post the same thing you posted about things that take you out of the fold of Islam and things that dont. Like Missing 3 str8 Jummah's and restating your Shahadah. This is an example of how you are not a kaffir, but you are losing your rights as a practicing believer. I think?

But us on the board also should remember that talking about a brother who has posted on this board and might not be present at the moment could be very close to backbiting. I see a lot of posts which are talking negatively about brother NewJehad and we need to be careful. ALLAH hu Alim.

And as for the Hijab Question, me personnally feel very attracted to the nur of a sister who correctly observes her hijab. Not as much physically as it is just overall respect for the sister's practicing of ISLAM. It makes me proud to be of the same deen as them.

Abd_ALLAH


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