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Bloody evidence of US blunder
bhaloo
01/09/02 at 01:31:20
slm [url] http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,628531,00.html [/url] Bloody evidence of US blunder Rory Carroll in Qalaye Niazi The Guardian The attack on Qalaye Niazi was as sudden and devastating as the Pentagon intended. American special forces on the ground confirmed the target and three bombers, a B-52 and two B-1Bs, did the rest, zapping Taliban and al-Qaida leaders in their sleep as well as an ammunition dump. The war on terrorism came no cleaner and Commander Matthew Klee, a spokesman at the US central command in Tampa, Florida, had reassuring news: "Follow-on reporting indicates that there was no collateral damage." Some of the things his follow-on reporters missed: bloodied children's shoes and skirts, bloodied school books, the scalp of a woman with braided grey hair, butter toffees in red wrappers, wedding decorations. The charred meat sticking to rubble in black lumps could have been Osama bin Laden's henchmen but survivors said it was the remains of farmers, their wives and children, and wedding guests. They said more than 100 civilians died at this village in eastern Afghanistan. Survivors lacked the bewilderment common to those who have been bombed, because they had an explanation: a tribal rival had manipulated the Americans into attacking Qalaye Niazi to further his political ambitions in Paktia province. The Pentagon said it had indications that senior Taliban and al-Qaida officials were at the site and that two surface-to-air missiles were fired at the aircraft during the December 29 raid. The bombs set off secondary explosions consistent with stockpiled ammunition. The Pentagon has produced no evidence that missiles were fired at the planes but there was a stockpile. From the ruins of two houses yesterday spilled boxes of Russian, Chinese and Iranian rockets.   Diehard Taliban and al-Qaida fighters are said to still rove Paktia and its neighbouring provinces of Paktika and Khost, where a US soldier was killed at the weekend. Qalaye Niazi's role seemed clear to Commander Klee: "You have a known al-Qaida-Taliban leadership compound." But survivors say they stored the ammunition six weeks ago on the orders of retreating   Taliban troops. When the regime fell they notified authorities but no one came to collect the ammunition. "We left it. What else were we supposed to do with it?" said Taj Mohammad, the village elder. It was stored in two unfinished houses in a five-house complex six miles north of the collection of mud-brick compounds which passes for Qalaye Niazi's centre. The complex housed 10 families who grew wheat, apples and grapes, said Mr Mohammad. About two dozen guests had crammed into the three occupied houses for a wedding, raising the number of occupants to more than 100, said the elder. The bombers came early in the morning. Precision-guided bombs vapourised all five buildings and a second wave an hour later hit people digging in the rubble and, judging from hair and flesh on the edge of three 40ft holes some distance from the complex, those trying to flee. Two days later villagers with shovels and tractors extracted the remains. A hand, an ankle, a bit of skull, sometimes an entire torso, and buried some in 11 graves, each said to contain several people, and relatives from Khost took some for burial in the mountains. Yesterday there were just human scraps and the carcasses of sheep, dogs and a cow, circled overhead by two crows. One villager said 32 died. The United Nations said 52, including 10 women and 25 children. Mr Mohammad said at least 80. Other villagers said 92. Staff at the hospital in Gardez said 107. Innumeracy, rapid burial, damage to bodies, propaganda, remoteness, they all conspire to shred certainty in this and other bombings. It is no one's job to count the dead. The UN said its envoy to Afghanistan, Lakhdar Brahimi, will discuss Qalaye Niazi with US diplomats. The Pentagon has shifted slightly from its initial certitude and promised to investigate a raid which Donald Anderson, chairman of the House of Commons foreign affairs select committee, denounced as a massive failure of intelligence. That civilians were present there can be little doubt. Taliban and al-Qaida too? Survivors swear not. Yet there is little venom for the US. "They were given bad information by bad Afghans," said Hinzer Gul, echoing neighbours. Haji Saifullah, head of Paktia's shura, or tribal council, said: "Our local enemies are delivering this information to the Americans that Taliban or al-Qaida people are here and Americans just bomb without any search." The finger was collectively pointed at Aghi Badshah Khan Zadran, 58, an anti-Taliban commander who controls Khost province and is lobbying the interim government to add Paktia and Paktika provinces to his fief.   Some tribal elders said he threatened to call in US planes against them if they did not back him and that Qalaye Niazi was a warning. Mr Zadran, also known as Pacha Khan Zadran, was also accused of wiping out rivals by triggering the US blitz of a convoy of elders on December 20, which killed up to 65 people. Mr Zadran's officials were spotted with US special forces who relied on him because of his impeccable anti-Taliban credentials, said aides of his rival, Mr Saifullah. By his own account Mr Zadran is the most powerful commander in south-east Afghanistan. He hails the bombing as accurate and necessary to purge terrorists but says he has no idea where the Americans get their intelligence. He hotly rejects the accusations of manipulating air strikes.   The allegations have rattled the prime minister, Hamid Karzai, who last week summoned Mr Zardan to Kabul to discuss Qalaye Niazi. But supporters were confident Mr Zadran would return home this week with his fief expanded to include Paktia and Paktika. "These allegations against him are nonsense. He is a democrat and pro-west. The government will confirm his appointment by Tuesday or Wednesday," said Amanullah Zadran, the minister for frontier and tribal affairs, and Mr Zadran's younger brother. Tribal politics tend to confuse even Afghans and one US official in Kabul admitted it was impenetrable to outsiders, no matter how well briefed. "So sure, mistakes happen."
NS

Re: Bloody evidence of US blunder
mujaahid
01/09/02 at 08:07:02
<Yet there is little venom for the US> lol!!! This is hilarious propoganda!!! a WEDDING RECEPTION was blown into oblivion, with dozens killed, yet they claim the survivors are not agry at the US! Yeah and i'm Saddam Husseins mustache!!

Re: Bloody evidence of US blunder
humble_muslim
01/09/02 at 11:32:11
AA When EVERYONE in Afghanistan has been making life hell for the common people for so many years, I can understand why there is "little venom directed to the USA".  After all, where were all the outbursts from the Muslims - who are now criticizing the USA - when Afghanis were killing each othee with huge "collateral damage" over the last few years ?
NS

Re: Bloody evidence of US blunder
mujaahid
01/09/02 at 11:50:49
Assalaamu-alaikum "When EVERYONE in Afghanistan has been making life hell for the common people for so many years" Really? According to who? The western Media? Well did you know that while the taleban were in power, they destroyed most of the heroin crop, they also disarmed 90% of the country under thier control, the only people with arms were the taliban police!!! People were free to live, women could walk the streets without getting raped, thier was law and order. Why didnt the western media show us any of this? Because they didnt want to, they had no reason, it didnt fit thier agenda of making the taleban regimes hated in the west. Many afghans supported the taleban when the Taliban came to power, in fact these poeple welcomed the taleban in. You will find that when the taliban came to power, their was VERY little fighting going!!! So please do not tell us how hellish life was in Afghanistan before the murderous US showed up! The US have killed over 10'000 Afghans, devasted commuities and villages, wiped out entire generations!!! How can anyone imply they are welcomed? "I can understand why there is "little venom directed to the USA"? You really believe that nonsense? If your family were blown apart, if you were the only survivor and your job was to collect the bits of flesh, arms, legs, limbs, sections of skull of your brothers, sisters, mother, father and children, i somehow doubt you would be saying you "have little venom directed towards the USA". Just think about the claim that afghans have little venom directed to the US and west. You tell me, why cannot the US and wetern troops walk the streets outside of Kabul? Because they know they are hated so much, the people will take them down and kill them on the spot. Look at robert fisk, the innocent western jounalist whose car broke down near homeless afghans, what happened to him? Over a hundred afghans set upon him to try and murder him because they were so full of hate for any westerners after thier lives were devasted by US attacks. Do the Afghans REALLY have very little venom for the US? I somehow think the venom is overflowing. Put yourself in the position of the Afgahns, after 10 years of russian war, then 5 years of civil war, where northern alliance would masscre anyone and everyone, where women were set upon and raped if the NA came about them, where their was dire poverty and no law and no order, and armed malitiamen roaming the streets and looting. Then along come the taliban, a strict yet fair system, the NA are removed, the streets are peaceful, the population is disarmed, peace and normality return, poverty remains, but life is a lot more stable and the towns a lot safer, where they had a police force, and strong crime and justice system, and it reimans like this for 5 years, and then all of a sudden this is shattered by another mighty brutal foreign force which murders and destroys the nation, removes the peace, where a breakdown in all law and order returns, where murders and armed men are back, where revenge attacks start off, where women are once again being raped, do you REALLY think the US are gona be loved for putting Afghanistan back into this position? As for the treatment of women, Evonne Ridley, the captured journalist, said the Taliban showed her a massive school for girls, with hundreds of young girls attending, yet we in the west were never shown this! She said the media were no shunning her because she had some pro-taleban views!!!! Dont mean to sound rude, but go figure.... Wasalaam

Re: Bloody evidence of US blunder
humble_muslim
01/09/02 at 12:44:59
AA Your points are totally valid Mujahhid.  But we are talking about two different things.  What I am saying is a reflection of the story itself.  After all, it was an AFHGANI MUSLIM who initiated this attack [quote] Yet there is little venom for the US. "They were given bad information by bad Afghans," said  Hinzer Gul, echoing neighbours.  Haji Saifullah, head of Paktia's shura, or tribal council, said: "Our local enemies are delivering  this information to the Americans that Taliban or al-Qaida people are here and Americans just bomb  without any search." [/quote] Kuffar will never have any kind feelings towards muslims, so I don't expect more from the US.  But the fact that muslims are willing to let hundres, thousands, even millions of muslims die for their own ends is APPALING.  And my question is, when this has been the norm in Afgahnistan for so many years, where was the revulsion of the muslims when this was going on ? Thruout the civil war, I never took any "sides", simply because it was obvious that any kind of military action would lead to INNOCENT muslims being killed.  Can anyone say that not even one INNOCENT muslim ever died at the hands of the Taliban, even by accident ?  Yes, I know they were sincere, but a muslim life is a muslim life.  And I, for one, will NEVER condone the taking of a muslim life unless it is for the reason mentioned by the Prophet (SAW).   Look at the example of Uthman (RA), who was murdered for trying to prevent a civil war between the muslims. So the bottom line is, those really responsible for this bombing and murder of innocnet muslims were, according to the accusations of the villagers themselves, not the US, but the Afghanis themselves. Is it any wonder that the enemies of Islam are taking advantage of us while we are in such a mess ?
NS

Re: Bloody evidence of US blunder
akbalkhan
01/09/02 at 15:08:34
As Salamu Alaykum, Humble Muslim, you wrote: " And my question is, when this has been the norm in Afgahnistan for so many years, where was the revulsion of the muslims when this was going on ?" Muslims from all over the world have traveled to Afghanistan to fight Jihad throughout the past 20 years.  There was not only 'revulsion' but also a proper reaction as well.  Let's not forget their efforts and sacrifices to be there even today. You also wrote: "Look at the example of Uthman (RA), who was murdered for trying to prevent a civil war between the muslims." The situation in the time of Uthman, RA, was unique in that he withheld his fight against the rebellious due to the hadith: "Once the sword is unsheathed among my followers, it will not be sheathed until the Last Day." It was a matter of timing as well and not solely the principle of shedding Muslim blood as you pointed out(of course that was part of it).  But should we also not take the example of Ali, RA, who sought to fight the army of Muawiya in Syria, which was comprised of Believers, on account of their "open rebelliousness" and opposition to his rightul rule under Shariah, and their obligation to obey him? Even Aisha, RA, when distraught at Ali's, RA, inactivity against the murderers of Uthman, RA, considered military action, and...."a battle between the army of Ali and the supporters of Aisha took place."  So even within the time frame that you are mentioning there are those among the Companions, RA, that saw it perfectly lawful and desirable to fight in order to preserve Shariah, even if it meant fighting other believers.(taken from MSA USC article entitled, The Rightly Guided Caliphs) The survivors 'lack of bewilderment' which this reporter states could also be shock, not evidence for her bad-blood suspicions, and her quoting of one person saying there is no venom either, suggests to me her poor job at assessing and relating the facts of her assignment. I do not think that Rory Carroll's article can erase the feelings of millions of Afghanis visibly angry with the U.S. And your comments seem to suggest that Muslims outside of that bombed town are more upset and angry at the U.S. than those who barely survived, and I think that is an inaccurate comment if it is only based on the reporting of this article. I stipulate that those responsible are the ones who gave the order, pulled the trigger, and those who gave the bad information. Regards, Qamar Akbal Kaan

Re: Bloody evidence of US blunder
humble_muslim
01/09/02 at 16:05:38
AA Once again, I agree with most of the points stated.  But I think the point I am trying to make has been missed : that in a civil war, EVERYONE suffers.  And a civil war is what has been going on in Afghanistan over the last few years.  Yes, there are some sincere muslims invloved, and also some insincere muslims.  But think about the common man, who does not want to fight, and ask if he sees the difference between the two sides.  All he will see is innocent muslims getting caught up and being killed.  Bullets and Stringer Missiles do not have the names of their shooters on them. AkbalKhan, you further illustrate my point by talking about the civil wars at the time of Ali (RA) with Aisha (RA) and Muawiyyah (RA).  Many muslims got caught up in these battles, and died.  Is this anything to be happy or proud about ? As I keep emphasising, the real problem is the actions of the muslims.  We need to get our act together, or the kuffar will - and are currently in the process of - taking advantage of us.  And then the balem will be entirely on the shoulders of the muslims for their disobedience.  This is illustrated in the Quran in the verses which talk about the Battle of Uhud.  No-where does it blame Khalid bin Walid  (RA) for causing the deaths of the muslims, but it takes the muslims to task for disobeying the Prophet (SAW). The Quran makes it clear that if the muslims simply do their basic duties, the kuffar will not be able to do any harm to them.  The problem is that the muslims are not even doing that.
NS

Re: Bloody evidence of US blunder
akbalkhan
01/09/02 at 21:50:20
As Salamu Alayka, If the source of fitna today is due the 'common man'not fulfilling his duties towards practicing al-Islam, that would go to say that there is no one to blame but the 'common' Afghans themselves for the situation they now are in.  That kind of logic goes against the traditions that say no man can bare anothers burden.  I do not believe that the Quran is contradicting itself, but rather the causal relationship put forward that places the actions of Muslims as the source of fitnah for the actions taken against them. When Muslims have undergone great effort and sacrifice to establish Shariah, we have to look at whether or not it is even an option to not fight if that rule is threatened.  I think the idea that the common people of Afghanistan were just passengers in the push for Shariah, and its establishment is not accurate nor honoring of the sacrifices they too have made. I agree that there is possibly 3 groups among the residents of South Central Asia, 1) those supporting the Northern Alliance(Western-styled rule and modernism), 2) those supporting the Taliban(Shariah), and 3) those who just want the other 2 groups to go away(every tribe to its own customs).  But group #1, and #3, are not backed by the traditions of al-Islam, nor is what they want a real solution to the problems. The problem with calling it a civil war in Afghanistan, is that there have always been more people involved than just the residents.  With Russia, India, the U.S., communists, socialists, mushrik, multinational corp.'s, all taking some role directly and indirectly, it has never been a fight between the common people within Afghanistan alone.  I don't know how far in time one would have to go back in order to uncover the true civil wars of South Central Asia.   I only know of two sides to any wars that Muslims across the globe are ever engaged in, those who support Shariah and Khilafah, and those opposed to it.  I know that some people do not approve of such a black and white perspective of the many problems that this ummah faces, but if we are talking about solutions to Muslims' problems, the establishment of Shariah is the only one that guarantees and ensures the practice of al-Islam among the common man.  If one looks at the conflicts in such a light, it is clear who are the Muslims friends and who are their enemies. Regarding the civil wars during the Caliphate of the Rightly Guided, RA, my point was that the best that this ummah has ever produced knew that Muslims fighting Muslims was inevitable, and they did not back down from this fact by saying that if we cannot fight kafr, then we won't fight at all.  I do not like the idea of Muslims fighting Muslims any more than anyone else, but when it comes to establishing the Shariah or protecting those places it has been established, whoever stands in the way of this, has to be overcome if not with calling them to understand that it is an obligation upon the ummah, then with force.   Indeed Sheikh Shuaibi declared: "The Taliban Regime in Afghanistan"..."is the only country in the World".."established on the Shariah of Allah and His Messenger in the Courts of Law, in the ministries, in the governmental circles and in other establishments." and that the Taliban are "upon Truth in their fighting against the Northern Alliance."   The basic duty is establishing Shariah, to allow for Muslims to practice al-Islam in all aspects of daily life.  I think that it is incumbent upon  us, in order to continue in this thread, to agree first upon this basic principle: "Without the establishment of Shariah, there can be no way to safeguard the very lives of people who wish to follow the deen of al-Islam."  It seems that some are trying to say that if we all just began to make all of the salaat, fast during the same time in Ramadhan, give Zakat, and made Hajj, that Shariah will magically come about somewhere.  This could not be further from the truth, rather people are and will continue to have to place their lives and others lives at the will of Allah SWT in order to take this right from those who would oppose. I am not trying to have any last word here, but I do think that we could go in circles about this if we are not agreed upon certain points, and not that we have to on all of them, but the one I mentioned I think may be a sticking point here. Regards, Qamar Akbal Kaan
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