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Islamic education first or Islamic Government ?
tq
01/15/02 at 10:16:01
Assalamo elikuim What do you guys think should be done first , should the Muslims be educated in true Islamic knowledge/teachings first or should there be Islamic government established first and the Islamic sharia implemented where people are forced to follow it and learn in the process ? Me and my husband were discussing this and we both had different views (as in most case :)) There are pros and cons of both approaches, what do you guys think ? Jazak Allah khair Wasalam tq

Re: Islamic education first or Islamic Government ?
abdul_Mutali
01/15/02 at 14:08:33
as salamu alaykum Well I think we should follow what Rasulallah(saw) did.He started giving dawah to ppl and when there was with him ppl strong in their deen Allah helped them and gave them a place to practise islam freely.So we should unite and follow the rasul's(saw) way inshAllah help will come from Allah and we can once again have darul islam. And also if ppl dont have knowledge how can we have a government which is in the rasul's(saw) way. Narrated Abdullah bin Amr bin Al As I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "Allah does not take away the knowledge, by taking it away from (the hearts of) the people, but takes it away by the death of the religious learned men till when none of the (religious learned men) remains, people will take as their leaders ignorant persons who when consulted will give their verdict without knowledge. So they will go astray and will lead the people astray." (Bukhari) Allahu Alim Pls visit www.muslims-unite.com if u can. JazakAllah khair

Re: Islamic education first or Islamic Government ?
Arsalan
01/15/02 at 15:07:12
[slm] Not to step on anybody's toes here, but ... I think Afghanistan is a great example of what happens when you impose an Islamic government on people that lack Islamic education.  Look at the footage of people stripping off their niqabs, playing music on the streets, and the long lines at the barber shop of people who want to shave their beards! Tarbiyyah definitely has to come first.  It doesn't mean we don't dream (and work) for an Islamic government though. I think it was Hamza Yusuf who said, "before we can have an Islamic state, we need to have an Islamic state of mind." Allahu a'lam.

Re: Islamic education first or Islamic Government ?
akbalkhan
01/15/02 at 16:50:52
Wa Lakum as Salam, For how long have there been really knowledgable people and scholars of al-Islam in just about every corner of this planet?  Think about why we always joke that everyone's a scholar these days.  What is real knowledge of the din of al-Islam?  Its certainly not the ability to recite, recount, memorize, analyze or debate texts in and of itself, but rather to live in a society implementing and realizing knowledge through their application of the laws and traditions that make up al-Islam. How is it possible that there are 1.2 billion Muslims on the earth, but no real Islamic government?  Is it because only a couple thousand are intelligent or well versed in al-Islam?  No, of course not.  How are we to point to the non-Muslims and say to them that due to the knowledge that we have, and our obedience as Muslims, we have no pinnacle and example of this knowledge but in the history.  How are we to even convey to other less knowledgable Muslims what is the knowledge that we as an ummah of Muslims recognize and adhere to when even knowledge itself is debated about in terms of contradicting fatwas and opinions issued with impunity and immunity by those who twist our traditions, not out of ignorance, but avarice for their own community, and a desire to fit in with the kafirun polemics?  How are we to protect and build our communities who wish for nothing but to abide by the strictest of interpretation of al-Islam, while those who adhere to the strictest interpretation of Judaism, Christianity and Hinduism establish their homes and laws right upon the very lands that used to be ruled by Shariah? To say that we must have knowledge before Islamic governance is like to say that we must have the menu in order to remember the taste of food.  We know what we have to do, we have had the best example come before us spelling out the way.  What I think is delaying the khilafah today is not the lack of land or people willing to establish it, but rather most Muslims inability to grasp the idea that we as common Muslims do not have the say in who is kalifa- he is not democratically elected.  We have a real issue with who we consider the sources for Islamic knowledge and tradition and who to include within this 'truely Islamic government.'  It is kind of ironic that those who are willing to and actually fighting for al-Islam look to scholars and interpretations considered by the non-fighting Muslims as controversial or extremist, and those who opt for being patient and not fighting look to scholars who the fighters consider modernist or compromising of the din.  I will dig up some examples for you but I think that you all know who and what with that (I do not wish to risk changing the thread into a political thing by indulging in the details here). We are obligated to estabish Shariah and Islamic governance and I am not aware of any conditions on what is the state of the Ummah's level of knowledge.  If we want to look at the best example for this, there could not have been more than 1000 'scholars' during the time of the establishment of Shariah in Medina, and we have far more in number than this.   Regards, Qamar Akbal Kaan

Re: Islamic education first or Islamic Government ?
abdul_Mutali
01/15/02 at 17:34:48
yakhi Qamar Akbal khan I dont disagre with you.u r perfectly right i think when u say that there isnt any condition at which state of knowledge ppl are to establish khilfah.But what i say is we need ppl with knowledge who are not compromising the deen and fighting in the cause of Allah.And i think Arsalan points out correctly when he points out what some of the ppl in Afganistan is doing.Big reason for that i think is lack of knowledge.We need ppl of knowledge so that they can call to the good and forbid us from the evil.U r right there is no need for knowledge which we just talk and right abt and dont try to impliment.So we should unite and try to impliment the sharia in our life and the land .The question is how are we going to do it,if our tawheed isnt right.If we are involved in shirk and kufr then how can we expect help from Allah.So although we are obliged to establish the Khilafah once again and that is the priority we should try to give dawah and remind ppl of the real teachings of islam which in my part of the world is being lost, to achive the goal of implimenting islamic government in the way of the rasul(saw). I know political discussion is not allowed here so lets not dwell in that although its very important. May Allah forgive me for my mistakes. Fee Amanillah

Re: Islamic education first or Islamic Government ?
akbalkhan
01/15/02 at 19:33:14
As Salamu Alayka, I think you are right on as well.   How is it going to be resolved on who is 'not compromising the din of al-Islam? How can we 'forbid' Muslims from evil, when we are not willing or able to implement the greatest deterrents for those without deep knowledge or iman, the consequences for crimes according to Shariah? It is a positive feedback mechanism- the more lax the laws get, the more people transgress.  The less Shariah is implemented across the land, the more crime and deviation occurs. What is this about 'Islamic state of mind'?  Who doesn't falter in din or iman?  Is anyone claiming to have achieved this 'state' of mind?  I think what makes even some Muslims afraid of al-Islam are the consequences for faltering or committing crimes in a truely Islamic governance. I agree that the ummah, actually more so myself if I am at all a reflection of Muslims, need to achieve a greater understanding of al-Islam. But this is a life long goal that I have undertaken with efforts that I can take that may or may not successful, but helping or supporting the establishment of Shariah and a truely Islamic government is something that must happen, even if I or you fail to increase our knowledge, iman, and adherence to the din.  Hinging the implementation of Shariah and the laws of Allah SWT on the level of knowledge of the Ummah could have us, our grandchildren, our great grandchildren, and even beyond them waiting for the khilafah to occur, and this a far greater failure than an inability to increase our 'ilm, in my opinion. Respectfully, Qamar Akbal Kaan

Re: Islamic education first or Islamic Government ?
bhaloo
01/15/02 at 21:00:33
slm "If a nation is successful in developing its people as strong and complete individuals, then, with Allah's help, it will be able to realize a glorious future for itself. It will also be able to promote and defend its religion and its beliefs"  :Sheikh Salman

Re: Islamic education first or Islamic Government ?
Rashid
01/15/02 at 21:59:09
[slm] I am of the opinion that before an Islamic government we need an Islamic education.  Nowadays some people think that Islam is just praying and fasting.  For example: [quote]How is it possible that there are 1.2 billion Muslims on the earth, but no real Islamic government?[/quote] How many of these 1.2 billion actually practice Islam?  Let's start with the basics.  How many of these pray 5 times a day everyday?  It is said that without salat there is no Islam.  In my community the masjid was packed during Ramadan, a month later, where did everybody go?  Let's also mention some of the other practices which are widespread amongst Muslims:  grave worshipping, bribery, corruption, nationalism, etc etc...How can such a people establish an Islamic state?   Another point was made:   [quote]To say that we must have knowledge before Islamic governance is like to say that we must have the menu in order to remember the taste of food.[/quote] The knowledge is there, but what about the heart and the will?  All Muslims know that there is supposed to be one khalifah, one ameer ul-mumineen.  But, nowadays we are Pakistani first, Palestinian first, American first...then we're Muslim.  How can Allah give victory to a people who place the dunya before the deen? From what I have seen, I wouldn't have a problem living under a Taliban or similar Shariah government:  I don't commit adultery, I don't steal, I'm not a homosexual, I don't listen to music, and I do strive to pray 5 times a day everyday, I do wish to grow a beard, and I do wish to acquire more Islamic knowledge.  But again, we don't know the reality of the Taliban government and a full Shariah system, so Allahu Alim. [wlm]

Re: Islamic education first or Islamic Government ?
Barr
01/15/02 at 23:28:03
Assalamu'alaikum :-) [quote]We are obligated to estabish Shariah and Islamic governance and I am not aware of any conditions on what is the state of the Ummah's level of knowledge.  If we want to look at the best example for this, there could not have been more than 1000 'scholars' during the time of the establishment of Shariah in Medina, and we have far more in number than this. [/quote] Context, akhi. What happened during the prophet's time, cannot be taken out of context. The world has evolved and changed since 1000 years ago. And since the fall of the khilafah, it has evolved further. Before, we have a play with every technological, economical and social advancements. But it's been more than 70 years, that the Muslims have not had an influence on the current world systems that we have now. I agree that we do have a goal and the obligation to set one up. But how would such state survive in this current world, with its current systems? The world has shrunk, everything is connected and linked. To me, it is not only to set up an Islamic state, but more importantly to maintain it. It is more than just having an Islamic state of mind, but expand from that mindset to mould the global systems that we have now, so that we are able to maintain that Islamic state when it is built. It is more complicated than about the number of ulama that we have. There must be a move to the contemporary situation, with its dynamic problems and assets, from the classical view that is relevant during the time of the great scholars but may not prove to be so now. There need to be an amalgamation and complementation of knowledge of what Islam says and the current developments. The quality of ulama and professionals that we want to produce may need to be reviewed again so that we be relevant, yet remain strong and rooted to the principles of Islam. People should not only hear that Islam is universal but see that Islam is universal. For them to see this, Muslims must implement the shariah. And without knowledge and hikmah, at every level of the individual and society, then, Islam would always remain irrelevant and stagnant. Whereas, this is contrary to the spirit of Islam, that encourages development and advancement in every aspect and level of the human life. Current challenges that I see, is educating the Muslim Ummah, developing the world systems and while doing this, protection and damage control from those who would want to see the disintergration of Islam. What happened in Afghanistan is an example of how a country that remotely wants to form an Islamic state received reactions from the whole world. What happened to the khilafah in the past should serve as the menu, so that we are able to remember the taste more vividly of our mistakes, and prevent them, and build a stronger fort. It takes an external force to demolish a civilisation, when it's internally weak. I'm not saying that everyone has got to be perfect in our knowledge, for we can never attain perfection, but going towards it. What I'm saying is that there must be efforts towards it, yes, but the method though slow, has to be carefully thought of, has to be steady and stable. The approach would differ for every country. For some, it is more imperative that Islam is educated to its masses, with no hint of any political takeover, while for some the approach may take a different route.   For me, it doesn't matter if I don't get to see the Islamic State in my lifetime, but as long as we are instilling Islai in the hearts of people, and when people see the beauty of Islam and a life only with Islam, then, the Islamic State would resurface. The time doesn't belong to us. To me, we're not a community that goes for fast results. But we're a community that goes for a more enduring and long lasting one. Allah would give us the time and He would give us sucess. Ameen. Allahu a'lam :-)

Re: Islamic education first or Islamic Government ?
akbalkhan
01/16/02 at 00:58:58
Abd al Barr, You wrote: "For me, IT DOESN'T MATTER if I don't get to see the Islamic State in my lifetime, but as long as we are instilling Islam in the hearts of people, and when people see the beauty of Islam and a life only with Islam, then, the Islamic State would resurface." To me that is the sentiment and stance that makes it slow and not a priority. Its my point that without an Islamic government there is no way to ensure that technology, economy, and society are Islamic and conducive for establishing Shariah. I guess I do not see a truely Islamic society as having to keep pace with the 'modern' world.  I see the best way of practicing al-Islam is doing it just as the Prophet, SAWS, did it, with no additions or subtractions, regardless of which way the world has turned in any of the above areas.   And remember the world is still the same size for the majority of the people in the world.  They are still just as poor, illiterate, and unable to take advantage of those things that have come about since the time of the Prophet, SAWS,.  While we would like to think that new technology,  societal values, and economies are maliable and capable of being manipulated eventually to serve the Muslim Ummah, they are created and advanced along cost prohibitive and subjective aims. We can discuss the Green Revolution and new agriculture techniques, the infrastructures needed to sustain and utilize current digital and electronic technologies for administering staple services such as water, electricity, gas, oil, etc., and how current economies are run that all stem from or lead to dependence upon riba, exploitation, oppression and the poverty and subjugation of the poor majority of human beings on this planet.  How could we ever ethically use these things to better serve an Islamic society? To me, advancing Islamic knowledge to the point of Shariah resurfacing means eliminating current world systems in place all together, not continuing to develop them.  They only work for the priviledged few who like to pretend that they are the only ones on the planet, while mostly everyone else has to live with out in order to provide that comfort. The effort must be in providing basic needs for people in order to grant them the opportunity to turn their attention away from their grumbling stomach, crying babies, or brutalized family members, towards the teachings of al-Islam.  Without Shariah, with out Allah SWT's laws prevailing, current world politics will continue to disguise the worlds poverty and uneducation as an instinctual backwardsness, current world systems of economy will continue to exploit and enslave whole nations to riba and free labor, and current world attitudes will allow this to be a system to develop and spread. Regards, Qamar Akbal Kaan

Re: Islamic education first or Islamic Government ?
Asim
01/16/02 at 01:12:42
Assalaamu alaikum, This is an interesting discussion topic, that I think, has many sides to it. I also tend to lean towards the educate masses to Islamic government theory, but... I tend to agree with br. Qamar also that establishing Islamic state first would be a big help. As Kashif quoted Ibn Taymiyyah in another thread, we need to work equally on different fronts, with focused minds, both at the individual and societal level. I feel the current world order will never allow muslims to unite or gain knowledge or improve themselves, collectively as a group, to such an extent that they can think of establishing shariah at any significant level. Islam will be confined to individuals, something to be practiced in seclusion without disturbing others. Even this is being threatened in our global village that is controlled and manipulated by non-muslims. If somehow an Islamic state gets established, they can atleast protect muslims and provide a conducive environment for them to develop, learn, and establish shariah. [quote]To me, it is not only to set up an Islamic state, but more importantly to maintain it.[/quote] One has to establish it before thinking of maintaining it :) Yes, with a knowledgeable ummah it would be much easier to maintain an Islamic state. But... let's take an example, many believed that Taliban were striving to establish shariah and doing good for Afghanistan; what did the knowledgeable people of our ummah do to help them? Nothing. They were shackled by the current world order, nationalism, ethnicism, jobs, immigration, financial systemm, etc. For the Afghan people, the Taliban did try to provide an Islamic environment. Some Afghan detested it but at least they were prevented from some sins, even if by forceful laws. So it is kinda hard. Establishing and maintaining pockets of shariah in today's world order will be tough. But we shouldn't give up on it by improving ourselves, families, and communities so that when we see an Islamic community we should be able to recognize them and help them out in what ever way possible. True khalifa, well, inshallah soon, when the majority of the world (> 50%) become muslim and demand shariah. Till then, establishing shariah in pockets, even at the family level, would be a struggle. Just some random thoughts, and Allah knows best. Wasalaam.

Re: Islamic education first or Islamic Government ?
abdul_Mutali
01/16/02 at 04:47:52
Yakhi Akbal Khan The way to resolve who doesnt compromise their deen is seeing their action.We dont and cant know whats in ones heart but we can certainly see their action and one does go out of islam by thier action. We are humans and we are weak and none of us are in highest level of iman all the time(atleast i think so).Allah said in the quraan:There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower.(2.256) The right path is distinct and we being low on our iman doesnt give us the right to falter from the right path.Implimenting the sharia is an obligation on us.So lets try to do that and way to start is call the muslims to unite.In a hadith in Sahih Muslim the prophet(saw) when asked what we should do when there will be bad time(this a part of a long hadith)he said:He said: You should stay with the main body of the Muslims and their leader. I said: If they have no (such thing as the) main body and have no leader? He said: Separate yourself from all these factions, though you may have to eat the roots of trees (in a jungle) until death comes to you when you are in this state.(Muslim,english version no:854) So we should look for the main body of the muslims,not the biggest the most well funded but the one which is calling the muslims to unity under Tawheed no race religion or any bidah but the way the Rasul(saw) told us to unite under the shari imam. I invite all of u to pls visit www.muslims-unite.com May Allah guide us all May Allah forgive me for my mistakes. Narrated Muawiya I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "If Allah wants to do good to a person, He makes him comprehend the religion. I am just a distributor, but the grant is from Allah. (And remember) that this nation (true Muslims) will keep on following Allah's teachings strictly and they will not be harmed by any one going on a different path till Allah's order (Day of Judgment) is established." (Bhukhari)
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