The Myth of Science and Compliance

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The Myth of Science and Compliance
akbalkhan
01/21/02 at 23:52:08
As Salamu Alaykum,

At the prompting of a sister on the board, in another post, I read the article for The Myth of Return, and I must say that I disagree on many points with that character, scholar, person, whatever.

The basic premise is what gets me, assimilation and integration.  

I mean shave your beards, drop the 'cultural' dress of robes and kufi, register to vote, meet some politicians, shake hands and smile at everyone, learn English, and bounce around the ethnic groups is going to make our stays here better?  I mean these guys sound as if it is an honorable thing to get accustomed to and participate in this society as full fledged citizens!

I know that Malcolm X made some changes in his perspective closer to his passing on, Inna illa Rabbikar Rujaa', but one thing that he said will stick with me, and has been my experience having lived in this country since I was born, and being the sum of my families experience here:

"The seal and the constitution reflect the thinking of the founding fathers that this was to be a nation by white people and for white people,  Native Americans, Blacks and all other non-White people were to be the burden barers for the real citizens of this nation.."

Many young Muslims living here have some real illusions about this country, about the possibilities of being included in the discussions that determine policy and the direction of our communities, but I don't.  It is only when Muslims make up a small, isolated and ineffective, poor community that we will actually have a say in it.  But if we are a part of a larger community here in the U.S., we will never have any influence on the quality of the lives of Muslims, aside from what we financially contribute personally.  We will never be allowed to live any more Islamically or protected than we already are!!  Not to take away from the gains of 20 years ago, when there were few masjids, and recent gains, like guys winning a law suit in order to keep their beards for religious reasons on the job, and the ability to pray at work, but these ARE recent and seem to be a culmination.  Just like civil rights laws, relgious tolerance precedents suffers backswings too, and really never gain any ground over all.

Someone said something a while ago, it was some right-wing, Christian minister, maybe the presidents' religious adviser or something, anyway, he says, apparently dumbfounded and outraged at even the suggestion of it verity, that Muslims in the U.S. have plans to implement the Shariah in the U.S.  I mean, what Quran and Sunnah loving Muslim would not want to do this, but sees either the impossibility or improbability of it?  But I bet you, that there are many who are so engrained and emboldened with their new found status or comfortability, that they would say or at least think that they would not want SHariah to replace Western democracy.  And they are the bitter fruits of integration and assimilation, not in its exreme or straif, but in its sad, devious, ultimate realization.

Here we have sociology and psychology telling us that it would be better for the second generation of Muslims to just accept the real eventuality that they will never return, for good, to their home countries.  The science of the study of human's physical and chemical responses to environmental and internal stimuli would have us all believe that if there are parents in a household that hold on to their home country with every iota of their being, its culture, its values, its status as home, and its source of pride, this would be detrimental to the adjustment of their children to U.S. society and lead to more serious problems in their mingling with American born Muslims counterparts.  This scientific discipline is telling us that in order to be healthy, in our view of ourselves, and our interaction with others, we have to accept that the U.S. is our new and lasting home, and that the sooner we dive into the deep end of the normative practices of U.S. society, the sooner we can all be better Muslims.  Are any of you really buying this?

The fact is that if we do not remain in our little ethnic enclaves, with our differences separating us, inactive and uninterested in politics and iniating legislation, side lined by cultural and religious differences with mainstream society, and protective of our parents' dreams to return to our homelands, then I promise you that Muslim would rear an even uglier head than that which was raised on 9-11.  The reality of the divergent and scathing schisms we have about al-Islam and its practice, and the disparaging chasm that exists between those who want to participate in the U.S. society, and those who despise it would be glaring at the world from its seat on the tongues and statements of every iniative and public remark contradicting and opposing itself from every corner of Muslim society in the U.S.

I really do admire the optimism of some Muslims who really believe that with education, networking, money, and compromise, they can inject American policies and legislation with a shot of Islam.  Sadly, it was never meant to happen, and never will be allowed to occur.  Sure, you could make some money, make a lot of non-Muslims politician friends, help fund Islamic schools in the U.S. or contribute money back home, and that is nothing to shake a stick at.  However all of that time would have been spent furthering the phantasm of a better assimilated Islamic community in the U.S., as opposed to a fully Islamic country elsewhere, but perhaps that's just what science wants us backwards thinking Muslims to believe, or not believe, gosh I forget with all the psycho-babble, propaganda at large.

Regards,

Qamar Akbal Kaan  


Re: The Myth of Science and Compliance
se7en
01/22/02 at 02:40:01

bismillah

[quote]As Salamu Alaykum, [/quote]

wa alaykum as salaam wa rahmatAllah

[quote]At the prompting of a sister on the board, in another post, I read the article for The Myth of Return, and I must say that I disagree on many points with that character, scholar, person, whatever.[/quote]

I suggest you do a search on Dr. Sulayman Nyang, read about his background, his education, and the activities he is involved with.  He probably has more knowledge about Islam and its history in the United States than those of us on the board combined.

[quote]The basic premise is what gets me, assimilation and integration.  [/quote]

Nowhere in this article does Dr. Nyang suggest we [url=http://www.dictionary.com/cgi-bin/dict.pl?term=assimilate]assimilate[/url] with American society.  But yes, he does say we should actually contribute to the society we live in, participate in the political process, and work *within the system* to change things.

And there are people who take issue with that, as is evident from what you've said.  :)

I had the opportunity to study with someone who explained things in very simple terms for me.  Basically he likened the society we live in - its systems, mechanics, processes, etc - to a box.  There are those who work from *inside* the box, seeking to re-shape it, change it's characterestics and gradually make it a different box altogether.  And there are those who basically say, screw that box, let's make our own. :)  (simple terms yeah? :))

I think this is where you and I, and Sulayman Nyang, differ :)  You say, seeking to change the box makes me a sell-out, and that seeking to do so somehow implies that I compromise my deen and am less of a Muslim.

And I think you're wrong :)  I think changing the box from the inside is the only way to effectively do *anything*.  I don't even know where someone would begin, if they sought to make a new box.  

Anyway, this is a topic we've covered many times, and in many forms before, so I'll leave it at that inshaAllah.  If you'd like to discuss this more with me, feel free to send me an e-mail or madina message inshaAllah.

wAllahu a'lam.

wasalaamu alaykum wa rahmatAllah :)
Re: The Myth of Science and Compliance
Kathy
01/22/02 at 10:00:41
slm

Talking about assimulation. This was the topic at our monthly Women of Faith meeting- a group of woman from different religions.

Do you think Yusuf (as) assimulated in the Egypt during his reign?
Re: The Myth of Science and Compliance
akbalkhan
01/22/02 at 15:22:27
No, Yusuf did not assimilate in his 'reign' in Egypt.

The example of Yusuf, AS, is not appropriate in the sense that there are things that were permitted to Yusuf, that are not permitted to us, as the laws of guidance are most complete and most comprehensive for us by way of the Prophet Muhammed, SAWS.

In Yusuf's time, we know of no laws or commandments of Allah SWT, or sunnah of Muhammed, SAWS, that said, 'do not imitate the non-Muslims,' or 'do not take them as protectors.'  I am sorry Sr. Kathy, but I think that that is a unapplicable situation.

Sister Se7en, I think that Mr. Nyang's statements are totally in line with assimilationists efforts and philosophies.  For example:

"The American Muslim community's myth of return has created many problems of adjustment and assimilation for many recent immigrants from the Muslim world."

He sees Muslims' ideal of returning to countries' of origin as an obstacle to assimilation in the U.S., and deems it a problem.

"Those immigrants who dream of returning home are the least likely to change their nationality, and their children are likely to be subjected to tremendous pressure to keep the cultural robes of distinctiveness."

I like how he uses the words 'cultural robes', and again makes not becoming fully and soley 'American' in nationality a problem to be solved.

"At a time when Muslims are trying to register their presence in the Public Square of American society, some members of their community continue to create conditions that are likely to be detrimental to the integration of their group in the larger society."

I am sorry if my criticism of this article and his views on our 'problems' is detrimental to your intergration of this message board into the larger web community.  That is just garbage, is he talking about those who refuse to shed their 'cultural robes?'

"Like the American Jews and Christians, the American Muslims will increasingly come to appreciate the benefits of the American civil society..."

I just do not accept or understand how this guy can go on about having to get over sectarian(deviant groups within the U.S.) issues, and wanting to return to Islamic countries in order to be better off in this kaffir country.  He is definitely preaching assimilation into American society, and he sees the traditional Muslims and us wacko reverts as an impediment to what he would like to convince more acquiescent, immigrant communities to believe.

But I never called anyone a sell out in my last message, or any recent messages(not anyone on this board), and I have not even gone so far as to say that he or anyone on this board is less Muslim for their opinions, and I really think that people who think this should review my above post again.

I will not relegate my opinion to an instant email message, or even refrain from continuing to post my opinion about what this guy says or anyone else, since I feel I am definitely sticking to the point, and not accusing or abusing anyone here.  I think that if one side of an issue is advocated, the equally compelling and acceptable 'other side' should be allowed and discussed as well.

But before someone comes in with a tray of goodies...

Regards,

Qamar Akbal Kaan

Re: The Myth of Science and Compliance
Arsalan
01/22/02 at 16:13:40
[slm]

The whole point of the article is that a lot Muslims that come to this land take all practical measures to stay here permanently.  They get an education, get a job, get a green card and buy a house.  They get *settled* here.  They have NO short-term plan of leaving the country.  Yet, they keep saying (to others) that *eventually* they would like to move back to their home-country!  

Meanwhile, they are raising kids here, who are going to school (or maybe Islamic school, or even home-school), constantly coming in contact with the society.  They themselves are constantly in contact with the society, working with non-Muslims in "their" companies, dealing with "them", using "their" resources, and paying taxes (albeit unwillingly) to help "their" country grow.  

Their, their, their!!!  

You see, the problem is, everything is "theirs" because these Muslim immigrants do not consider this country their OWN country as well!  Because?  Well, because they intend to move back *home* eventually anyway!  So it's like they are temporary settlers in this country.  With no obligation to this society, and no concern for its future, problems or issues.  

And what REALLY ends up happening?

These Muslims end up living ALL their lives here, die here, get buried here, and their children eventually melt into the pot *completely* after their death!

This is what Dr. Nyang is criticizing.  This attitude ... a fantasy rather ... that we are all here only temporarily.  That this is not our home.  That we will all go away from this place one day.  

That's wrong!  

As long as we're here, we are to work to benefit the society around us.  Our primary obligation is towards the society in which we are living in, not our *old* home.  The home that we left behind.  *This* is our home as long as we are here.  And we have obligations towards the people that live with us in this home of ours.  We are to tell them about Islam, to tell them about our Prophet (pbuh), our Book, our teachings, our morals and our values.  We are to invite them to our Path with wisdom and patience.  

And how do you do this without *integrating* with the society?  

How do you get involved and make any difference without even knowing what differences need to be made?  Without know what the people are in need of?  Without reading their news?  And without interacting with them on all levels?

We have to interact with the people (which a lot of people don't wanna do .. "don't talk to those kaffirs ... they'll all go to hell!" )  That means we have to get involved in the affairs of the community and make a difference.  Show the people that Muslims are people who care about humanity, who want to improve the conditions.  The Prophet (pbuh) was sitting with companions once, recalling a meeting that took place between different tribes of Quraysh before his prophethood.  The meeting was called to resolve problems that the tribes were facing, to reconcile between the different tribes, and to look for solutions.  They were all kaafirs, implementing a kaafir system, most of them consisting of those who opposed the Prophet (pbuh) vehemently once he claimed prophethood.  Yet the Prophet (pbuh) remarked to his companions, that if such a meeting was to take place again, he would still attend it and give his input and contribution.  Even though they were kuffar, and he was the Messenger of Allah!

Why can't we integrate in a similar manner?  Why can't we embrace the problems of this society that we live in as our own?  Why can't we contribute to provide solutions in tackling these problems?  Why can't we show concern for these people around us?  Why can't we *integrate* in the society?  

Why are we afraid to invite our neighbors home for Eid?  Why are we hesitant in attending meetings with the city officials to know what the people around us need, and how we can make a difference and make this place around us a better place?

Da'wah is not just to tell people that there is only one God!  It is also to show the people what the utterance of such a statement produces.  And it produces a human being, in the true sense of that word, who *cares* about the well-being of all humanity, in this life AND the next.  And who shows that he cares by exhausting all of his efforts to make a difference!

Integrate yourself.  Don't isolate yourself!

True, we are not to melt in the pot.  We are not to "assimilate" if that's what the word means.  We are not to imitate the disbelievers, and do whatever they do.  We are not to compromise our Deen, or try to conform it to please the disbelievers.  No!  But that doesn't prevent us from integrating, and from benefitting the society, and from working as if we were to stay here forever!

That's what Dr. Nyang is saying.  

And if we don't agree with it, then at least have some respect for him.  Especially in his absence!  He is a doctor and a learned person about this Deen.  A person who has exerted tremendous effort in the Cause of Allah's Deen in this country.  Let's not call the brother by titles such as "this guy" or refer to what he has written as "garbage" (aka filth or trash).

Wallahu a'lam.

Wassalamu alaikum wa rahmatullah.



Re: The Myth of Science and Compliance
Kathy
01/22/02 at 17:54:30

[quote]No, Yusuf did not assimilate in his 'reign' in Egypt.
I am sorry Sr. Kathy, but I think that that is a unapplicable situation. [/quote]

No I did not mean it to be applicable in this situation. It was the topic of discussion last night  and I was just thinking about you and se7en's discussion.

Other than the Qur'an and Ibn Kathir's writings- I had no other source so was wondering if you all did, especially since next month we will be talking about Musa as and the topic will most assuradly come up again.

NS
Re: The Myth of Science and Compliance
amal
01/22/02 at 19:09:46
Assalamu alaykum,

Br.Arsalan that was a great post, Mash’Allah. You need to post more!!!
[quote]
The example of Yusuf, AS, is not appropriate in the sense that there are things that were permitted to Yusuf, that are not permitted to us, as the laws of guidance are most complete and most comprehensive for us by way of the Prophet Muhammed, SAWS.
[/quote]

True.But then pray tell us why do you think Allah[swt] has dedicated a whole surah just talking about prophet Yusuf,AS,if not to learn from him? Is the purpose to entertain us perhaps? Or is it to just fill pages? Wal’eyath billahi!

[quote]”And were every tree that is in the earth (made into) pens and the sea (to supply it with ink), with seven more seas to increase it, the words of Allah would not come to an end; surely Allah is Mighty, Wise.” Surah Luqman(31:27)[/quote]

I always wondered what the above verse meant. I knew that Allah [swt] is Most Wise but I couldn’t understand how the infinite nature of Allah's Words, in particular, related to us.And why the reference to pen and ink? Then it hit me! I realized that the reference is actually to the Qur’an. Why do we have this concise Qur’an with its precise number of surahs and verses?

Because we are finite beings with limited capabilities for perception and understanding, Allah [swt] conveyed His wisdom in a manner that suited our nature. This meant that He tells us only those things that are most relevant to achieving the goal behind our existence in this world: to worship Him and be His vicegerents on earth. There’s nothing superfluous or outdated in the Qur’an. Every single verse is there for a reason.

Even those verses that were abrogated later are there to teach us something. For example, the drinking of alcohol was prohibited in stages. When the muslim community was very young and people were still attached to their ignorant ways Allah[swt] commanded the believers not to drink it just before performing the prayers. The priority here was to purify and strengthen the soul of the muslim through the remembrance of Allah[swt] and when that was achieved only then did The All-Wise declare alcohol forbidden. By that time muslims were hardly drinking anyways and as the commandment came they willingly gave it up.Today muslims find themselves is a similar predicament.Islam is all about building things. But we have to be wise about figuring out what is the foundation, what are the pillars and, what is the icing on the cake (i.e the final touches).

I heard a scholar say that muslims have gotten into a strange habit of compartmentalizing the Qur’an. They say this part was revealed for this nation, this for that nation, this for the jews, that for the Christians…until there was almost nothing left for them to learn from.

Allah[swt] says in the Qur’an regarding previous prophets and nations:
[quote]
“And all that We relate unto thee of the story of the messengers is in order that thereby We may make firm thy heart. And herein hath come unto thee the Truth and an exhortation and a reminder for believers.” Surah Hud (11:120)
[/quote]

The problem that we have today is that we no longer study the Qur’an in a wholesome manner looking for answers to our problems. Instead we rely on our faulty reasoning to determine how to conduct our affairs and selectively use those parts of the Qur’an that agree with our inclinations. The Qur’an is there to guide us, not the other way around! May Allah[swt] forgive us.

A friend of mine gave this beautiful analogy of a human being as an electric product, the Qur’an as the manual that comes with this product, and the environment around us as a house in which the product is used. If we read the manual and understand what it tells us then the product will function perfectly as designed by the Creator with no problems. If, however, we don’t read the manual and insist on managing the product by ourselves then it’s very likely that not only will we damage the product but also run the risk of burning the whole house down!  I thought that was a very apt description :)

Wallahu A’alam





Re: The Myth of Science and Compliance
Kashif
01/22/02 at 19:50:39
assalaamu alaikum

[quote]There are those who work from *inside* the box, seeking to re-shape it, change it's characterestics and gradually make it a different box altogether.[/quote]
Out of curiosity, can you give me a few examples of where this has worked please?

Kashif
Wa Salaam
NS
Re: The Myth of Science and Compliance
akbalkhan
01/23/02 at 02:43:17
As Salamu Alaikum,

Has anyone even looked up the word 'to integrate' before they make such statements that we, as Muslims, should be attempting to do this.  Here let me provide you with the first, and most common definition for integration, and let's see if you still want to integrate:

in·te·grate (nt-grt)
v. inte·grat·ed, inte·grat·ing, inte·grates
v. tr.
*To make into a whole by bringing all parts together; unify.

*To join with something else; unite.
To make part of a larger unit: integrated the new procedures into the work routine.

*To open to people of all races or ethnic groups without restriction; desegregate.
To admit (a racial or ethnic group) to equal membership in an institution or society.
(from Dictionary.com)

I just think that it is really arrogant for immigrants to think that other groups have not also tried to take a greater interest in integrating into society in America.  In doing so they became even more divided and lost even more power to actually effect change than when they excerised their influence by uniting only under times of trouble.  The hatred and repulsion felt by average Americans for immigrants, especially those from even other American countries, like Mexico, Brazil, Dominican Republic, etc, pales in comparison to what they feel for Muslims.  They will never accept us as equal partners in 'their' administration and rule of this country, and in the enterprises that generate wealth.

"You see, the problem is, everything is "theirs" because these Muslim immigrants do not consider this country their OWN country as well!  Because?  Well, because they intend to move back *home* eventually anyway!  So it's like they are temporary settlers in this country.  With no obligation to this society, and no concern for its future, problems or issues."

The reason everything in America, even the world, is 'theirs' is because the kaffir would even sell their own grandparents to make a profit.  ANother issue I take with Br. Nyang is that he is asking us to gauge Muslim immigrants response to moving here by their intentions.  I don't see any real scientific or concrete statements that can be made about the intention of Muslim immigrants to return to their homw country.  With ownership comes greater concern, even parents use this phenomena with their children.  However greater ownership of interests in this country by Muslims will NEVER be allowed to happen beyond the surface.

"This is what Dr. Nyang is criticizing.  This attitude ... a fantasy rather ... that we are all here only temporarily.  That this is not our home.  That we will all go away from this place one day.  
That's wrong!"

From Bukhari:
Volume 8, Book 76, Number 425:
Narrated Mujahid:

'Abdullah bin 'Umar said, "Allah's Apostle took hold of my shoulder and said, 'Be in this world as if you were a stranger or a traveler." The sub-narrator added: Ibn 'Umar used to say, "If you survive till the evening, do not expect to be alive in the morning, and if you survive till the morning, do not expect to be alive in the evening, and take from your health for your sickness, and (take) from your life for your death."
**********************

I know, I know....I will keep that to the one hadith for this post if I may be permitted.  Perhaps, Arsalan, I may be misunderstanding your and Br. Nyang's statements on the issue of making a home in America due to the amount of time we may or may not be here, but life is too short to think that we could be party to the changing of the hearts of the Americans in power in this country.  I absolutely see the need for giving dawah while we are here, but to think that we could actually change the kaffir laws and policies here that effect Muslims detrimentally, is more of a fantasy than thinking that we should return to Muslim lands.

By the way, I even said that I admired the optimism of Br. Nyang, and others who wish to integrate and make a difference here, but I feel I have some legitimate concerns about 'integrationists' nay-saying Muslims who I feel may have a proper intention in bringing back to home countries, money, education, and a renewed sense for love of living in an Islamic community, as opposed to kaffir.

I also contend that the disparaging relationships between first generation immigrants and second generation is not the lack of attention paid to adjustment to American society, but rather the first generations abhorrence of American values and practices, which if held to the light of the guidance of al-Islam, Americans have no guidance what so ever.  Even if we are to make adjustment and life in America easier for our children and fellow immigrant Br.s and Sr.'s in al-Islam, it should not be our following of this countries ways of life and our integration into American society that unites us.

"True.But then pray tell us why do you think Allah[swt] has dedicated a whole surah just talking about prophet Yusuf,AS,if not to learn from him? Is the purpose to entertain us perhaps? Or is it to just fill pages? Wal’eyath billahi!"

Sr. Kathy, I am sorry if I was brief with your concern.  I really did not mean to disregard your question, but rather was responding to what I thought was an attempt to suggest that Yusuf, AS, had integrated into a non-Muslim society, so why shouldn't we?

Sr. Amal, I am really surprised that you took my response to mean that I thought the Quran was not to be respected and learned from in regards to Yusuf, AS!?  But to answer your post in kind, do you then also think that we should also bow to our Br.'s in al-Islam, whom we respect as benefactors or carriers of tradition, or to allow others to bow to us as Yusuf, AS, allowed his family to do to him?  Of course, not.  There were obviously certain things allowed to Prophets and Messengers, AS, that are not allowed to us now, and I hope that we don't have to get into a non-productive discussion about that.

I mean no disrepect to Br. Nyang, nor to any brothers and sisters who agree with his points, as I do agree with most of the logical assumptions he draws, but his conclusions I do not.  Integration into American society, looking at America as home for Muslims, engaging further and further in American politics, dismissing our concerns about deviant groups just to unite in America, among other things that he lists as solutions and invites us to do, are to me, a poison in this din and a misconception about how best dawah is given.  American society and its values are kaffir, however much it may be easier for us to live here if we adopt them or accept them in our hearts or actions, but its wrong.  Our obligation as people living in a kaffir country is not to become absorbed into it, but rather to give dawah, and to hold our allegiances to our Muslims communities in Islamic lands, whether we agree with the current regimes there or not.  Even for those who are born in AMerica, as my families, families, family has lived and died here for much longer than any European, it was hard for me to accept at first, but this counrty is no longer 'our' home.  I hold onto the collective memory of the stories and history of this country, and it provides me a perspective that I do not expect relatively recent immigrants, European or other wise to share.  Where you might consider the wood, shaped and cut to form the floors and walls of your house, the furniture, your grass or fence line, and the fixtures, your home, I consider each tree, the soil, the mountains, the sweetgrass, the deserts, and the lakes my home, as my ancestors did.  But when groups of people come in droves, tear down your home, replace all the furniture, make you camp in the street, and dig up the yard to make other homes and businesses, do you wait until they give it back, do you ask them if you can sleep under their roof, do you help them pay bills, and do you listen to their new guests when they say that you should respect their wishes? My people, the American Indians, have fought integration into American society as well, and we have learned many lessons in that struggle.  Our rights were guaranteed by law, our honor in war and society was not too much unlike the ferocity with which Muslim mujahidin hold onto their sword in battle, yet they double talked, renegged, and baulked at every promise and treaty they had with us, right on up to the present day.  American Indians very much recognize the struggle of present day Palestine, Afghanistan, Indonesia, China, Kashmire, Bosnia, Chechnya and elsewhere, because it has happened and continues to happen here in America.  I really resent when people bring this integration stuff to me like there is some new angle that I have not recognized that would be conducive to my adjusting to American society.  It holds me in between and cry and a laugh sometimes.  When you talk about caring for people in America, and helping them to see al-Islam, again I only see this message directed at those who could best benefit al-Islam with their race, money, and status(Dr.'s, politicians, wealthy, black or white, Christians, Jews), but while American Indians recognize the bravery of the mujahidin and are drawn to al-Islam by their steadfastness and strength in rejection of American demands and politics, and are making statements in support and solidarity with the disenfranchised indigenous peoples of Muslims lands, I see no efforts on the part of Muslims to return this concern while living in a land of American occupation as well.

Just plain insensitive and naive.

Regards,

Qamar Akbal Kaan





Re: The Myth of Science and Compliance
momineqbal
01/23/02 at 03:11:44
[slm],

Br. Qamar, your middle name sounds quite a lot like my name ;-).

Interesting thread!!! I have been thinking a lot about this too. But I dont have much to say yet. Just out of curiosity brother Qamar how many muslim countries have you been able to visit? I haven't had a chance to visit even one yet :(.
I have also heard from some people about developing some sort of local "american muslim culture" in America. The main point of this observation being that almost all immigrant muslims wherever they went formed a new 'culture' e.g. India, Southeast asia etc. What do people think about this "developing american muslim culture"?
It also seems to me sometimes that no one group in our ummah has a clue as to what needs to be done. People have lots of theories so far. Many well meaning groups have failed and continue to fail. I don't know if this is a good thing or a bad thing. The only worrisome thing is that at individual levels are we failing as well in our duties to Allah (swt), for if we are failing at group/ummah level then there might be a design of Allah (swt) in that for some ultimate good.

Anyways...
wassalam
Eqbal
Re: The Myth of Science and Compliance
BrKhalid
01/23/02 at 07:07:45
Asalaamu Alaikum ;-)

As Br Arsalan said:

[quote]We have to [color=Red]interact[/color]with the people (which a lot of people don't wanna do .. "don't talk to those kaffirs ... they'll all go to hell!" )  That means we have to get involved in the affairs of the community and make a difference.  Show the people that Muslims are people who care about humanity, who want to improve the conditions.[/quote]

The key word here is interact.

To me there is a big difference between interacting with non muslims and integrating with them.

[quote]I absolutely see the need for giving dawah while we are here, but to think that we could actually change the kaffir laws and policies here that effect Muslims detrimentally, is more of a fantasy than thinking that we should return to Muslim lands[/quote]

Hang on did I read the second part of this sentence correctly?

On a purely practical level in the UK, if Muslims had not worked hard in changing laws we would not have things such as Muslim schools and Muslim burial facilities to name but two examples.

On the point of changing laws though, is it necessarily the case that we should judge our actions on the basis of success or failure?

Let me give you an example.

You notice your Muslim neighbour refusing to allow her daughter to wear her Hijab even though the daughter wants to.

You know from prior experience that you will have no impact on the neighbour's feelings on the issue and hence what do you do?

There are three possible things you could do:

1. Do nothing
2. Try and persuade the neigbour in the best manner you can and using wisdom in your approach.
3. Pray to Allah to change the heart of your neighbour


As a Muslim will you not get rewarded for actions 2&3 regardless of the outcome?

This kind of topic always reminds me of the following hadith:

[color=Blue]“The believer who mixes with people and bears their insults with
patience is better than the one who does not mix with people or bear their
insults with patience” [/color]

[Reported by Bukhari in Al-Adab al-Mufrad]


Agreed, we can completely disassociate ourselves from American society and isolate ourselves. That is a perfectly acceptable position to take.

Whether it’s the best position to take though is another story.


As ever Allah knows best

Wasalaam
Br Khalid

Re: The Myth of Science and Compliance
akbalkhan
01/23/02 at 11:41:34
Wa Lakum as Salam,

Bro. Khalid, I agree with what you are saying.  We must not avoid interacting with non-Muslims in America, and we should do what is necessary to protect the basic rights of Muslims.  But we could never become equal partners with non-Muslims in their positions of power in this country, whether we get it together or not.  My beef is with those who say we should integrate and with those who look at my and others' unwillingness to assimilate as a problem.

But you are right.
Thanxs for popping in.

Using the examples you did, belied the complexity of the matters though.  I am not aware of the hardship encountered in the UK with regards to Muslims establishing themselves.  But what is apparent to me in the U.S. case in point, is that with enough people and money, the laws just kind of give way to what you want, to a degree, say for building a masjid or school.  But those are things that people aught to be able to do anyway.

Success in America, in my mind, for Muslims, is to be able to carry out our way of life as Muslims, in its entirety, just as non-Muslims expect to be able to carry out their way of life when living in Muslim countries.  But the laws of America and the West are such, that even the Muslims submit to them on the pretext that we have to respect the laws of the countries we are in.  No doubt, no one wants to go to jail, but that's exactly what would happen if Muslims in the West decided to forbid what Allah SWT forbids, and to enjoin what Allah SWT enjoins, and that will never change.  I do not wish to even on the surface accept the Wests' laws and values that contradict al-Islam.  If people really must know, then we should tell them that if given the chance we would change the West into an Islamic empire, and establish Shariah, and that we are not satisfied as Muslims, with their laws and society.  But this you must hide if you are to integrate and want a share in even the direction of a community.  To return to an Islamic country is an honorable intention and goal, and to encourage our children to hone their skills, technical and religious, in preparation for reconstructing the Islamic world is necessary to rebuild what IS ours.  Aiming to concentrate on the affairs of the American people and how they view Muslims is a preoccupation from what should be our real goals of what we can and will do to rectify those countries that need our help and attention more, the Muslim countries.

Regards,

Qamar Akbal Kaan
Re: The Myth of Science and Compliance
humble_muslim
01/24/02 at 16:18:02
AA

[quote]assalaamu alaikum

There are those who work from *inside* the box, seeking to re-shape it, change it's characterestics and gradually make it a different box altogether.
Out of curiosity, can you give me a few examples of where this has worked please?

Kashif
Wa Salaam[/quote]

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but how about Indonesia ?
NS
Re: The Myth of Science and Compliance
Kashif
01/24/02 at 18:58:10
assalaamu alaikum

In specific which time period akhee? As in current day indonesia, or from past times?

Kashif
Wa Salaam
NS


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