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What do you do when your local Imam says there is no need for a daleel?
Abd_Allah
01/25/02 at 23:04:02
Assalaamu Alaykum At the Masajid tonight the Imam was explaining the art of Wudu according to the Hanafi school of thought. I was one of the older guys there as there were many other young children. He said some things associated with Wudu which raised my eyebrows along with a couple other brothers who were near me. After the halaqa one of the brothers asked the Imam if he could kindly give him the sources for the prescribed methods which he was illustrating. The Imam then asked him and I to come with him into his office. He then went to his bookshelf and started picking up book after book saying that he has read and studied these books and knows what hes talking about. He said that there is no such thing as daleel in the UK (where he is from originally) and that this is something very new to him. He said that we should trust him and that he wouldnt teach us anything wrong. WHAT SHOULD WE DO??? I felt very baffled as I have never heard this before? May ALLAH guide us all...Abd

Re: What do you do when your local Imam says there is no need for a daleel?
ABD
01/25/02 at 23:35:17
[slm] Whenever I attend a lecture given by our Imam, known scholar, or just at a halaqa, the dhaleel is usually given. Even if they don't specify which book from Bukhari or Muslim, they mention which scholar's book it's from. I'm not saying that what the Imam said was wrong, wAllah-u A'lam, (although I doubt that he would lie), but it's always good to have dhaleel for ourselves and for future purposes, Insha'Allah. I would double check with someone else of knowledge the dhaleel Insha'Allah. Also, I'm also Hanafi, can you tell me some stuff that the Imam said that raised some eyebrows? I'm just curious as to what he said b/c there are things in the Hanafi madhab that are different from the Maliki, Shafi'i and Hambali. I apologize if I have offended anyone. May Allah (SWT) forgive us and guide us all. Ameen. Hope this helps Insha'Allah. [wlm] Betul

Re: What do you do when your local Imam says there is no need for a daleel?
Arsalan
01/25/02 at 23:36:10
[slm] What did he say about wudoo that surprised you guys?   I'm curious.

Re: What do you do when your local Imam says there is no need for a daleel?
Abd_Allah
01/26/02 at 00:31:59
Well let me think...first I learned through the Sunnah that you should wash your mouth and nose with the same water together in the same motion and he said that you cant and that you should do the mouth and nose separate. Then when he got to washing the face he said that you should not wash the neck at all and that you should wash between your two earlobes and between the hairline and top of the jaw. I read in the Sunnah that you should wash your lower jaw also which he then said was not correct. Then he said that you shouldnt add any water to your fingers when doing Masaa over your hair and you should use the same water from your arm wash, and that you should go over the back of your neck. I have never read anywhere about the neck. May ALLAH guide us all...abd

Re: What do you do when your local Imam says there is no need for a daleel?
akbalkhan
01/26/02 at 03:04:05
Wa Lakum as Salam, Yeah, I was in the habit of holding my arms at my sides, for various reasons, first and foremost because I believed it to be sunnah.  When I approached a mufti about it, he merely told me not to do it.  When I asked him what is the evidence for his fatwa, he told me that it would be too complicated for me!?!  Well I just kept right on doing it, until I did finally read the daleel for it, and accordingly altered my salaat to hold my arms on my chest. I believe that I read somewhere, and I will look, that you are not obligated to follow a fatwa if no daleel is given upon request(?). The day we are asked as Muslims to just trust someone's opinion, I going to forget what religion we are talking about. Regards, Qamar Akbal Kaan I am sure this is somewhere in the archives, but just thought I would put it up. Question: please oh brothers could you please tell me how a woman could perform wudu for my wife and also could you please tell me how to say ayat al kursi in arabic words but english text as iam yearning to learn the beautiful ayat which the almighty has mentioned so much about him self.please please could you answer this one asmy heart is yearning for it. may allah bless our beloved prophet and his family and his companions. Answer: Praise be to Allaah.   Firstly we praise Allaah for having guided you and opened your heart. We ask Allaah to make us and you steadfast in obeying Him. We appreciate your efforts to learn about your religion and we advise you to strive to acquire knowledge so that your worship will be correct. Try to learn Arabic so that you will be able to read Qur’aan and understand it properly. We ask Allaah to bless you with beneficial knowledge. With regard to how wudoo’ is to be done, there are two ways. 1 – Obligatory parts of wudoo’, which are as follows: (i)Washing the face completely once, which includes rinsing the mouth and nose. (ii)Washing the arms up to the elbows, once. (iii)Wiping the entire head, including the ears. (iv)Washing the feet up to ankles, once. What is meant by once in all the above is that the entire part of the body mentioned must be washed thoroughly. (v)This must be done in order, so one washes the face first, then the arms, then wipes the head, then washes the feet, because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) did wudoo’ in this order. (vi)This must be done continuously, i.e., the parts of the body must be washed one after the other with no lengthy interruption between washing one part and the next. These are the obligatory parts of wudoo’ which must be done in order for wudoo’ to be sound. The evidence for these obligatory parts of wudoo’ is the aayah in which Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “O you who believe! When you intend to offer As-Salaah (the prayer), wash your faces and your hands (forearms) up to the elbows, rub (by passing wet hands over) your heads, and (wash) your feet up to the ankles. If you are in a state of Janaaba (i.e. after a sexual discharge), purify yourselves (bathe your whole body). But if you are ill or on a journey, or any of you comes after answering the call of nature, or you have been in contact with women (i.e. sexual intercourse), and you find no water, then perform Tayammum with clean earth and rub therewith your faces and hands. Allaah does not want to place you in difficulty, but He wants to purify you, and to complete His Favour to you that you may be thankful” [al-Maa’idah 5:6] 2 – Mustahabb parts of wudoo’. These were narrated in the Sunnah of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), the details of which are as follows: (i)You must have the intention of purifying yourself and removing impurity. The intention should not be spoken out loud for its place is in the heart. This applies to all acts of worship. (ii)You should say Bismillaah. (iii)Then you should wash your hands three times (iv)Then you should rinse your mouth three times, swirling the water around inside your mouth, and rinse your nose three times, blowing the water out and using the left hand to remove the water from your nose. (v)You should wash you face three times, from the hairline to the jawbone and chin, and from ear to ear. A man should wash the hair of his beard because it is part of the face. If his beard is thin he has to wash it inside and out, and if it is thick and covers the skin, he should wash the surface of it only and run his wet fingers through it. (vi)Then he should wash his arms up to the elbows three times. The arm extends from the fingertips, including the nails, to the lower part of the upper arm. It is essential to remove anything stuck to the hands before washing them, such as dough, mud, paint, etc, that could prevent the water from reaching the skin. (vii)Then after that he should wipe his head and ears once with fresh water, not the water left over from washing his arms. The way in which the head is to be wiped is that you put your wet hands at the front of your head and bring them to the back of your head, then bring them back to the place where you started. Then put your index fingers in your ears and wipe the back of the ears with your thumbs. With regard to a woman’s hair, she should wipe it whether it is loose or braided from the front of her head to the roots of the hair at the nape of her neck, but she does not have to wipe the entire length of her hair. (viii)Then you should wash your feet three times up to the ankles, namely the bones at the bottom of the leg. The evidence for that is the hadeeth narrated by Humraan the freed slave of ‘Uthmaan, who said that ‘Uthmaan ibn ‘Affaan (may Allaah be pleased with him) called for water to do wudoo’. He washed his hands three times, then he rinsed his mouth and nose, then he washed his face three times, then he washed his right arm up to the elbow three times, then he washed his left arm likewise. Then he wiped his head, then he washed his right foot up to the ankle three times, then he washed his left foot likewise. Then he said, “I saw the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) doing wudoo’ as I have done it, then the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, ‘Whoever does wudoo’ as I have done it, then prays two rak’ahs in which he focuses completely on his prayer, his previous sins will be forgiven.’” (Narrated by Muslim, al-Tahaarah, 331) The conditions of wudoo are: being Muslim, being of sound mind, having reached the age of discernment and having the intention of doing wudoo’. Wudoo’ is not valid on the part of a kaafir, an insane person, a small child who has not yet reached the age of discernment or one who does not have the intention of doing wudoo’ because his intention is to cool himself down, for example. The water must also be pure (taahir), for impure (naajis) water cannot be used for wudoo’. One must also remove anything that could prevent water from reaching the skin and nails, such as nail polish. It is prescribed to say Bismillaah according to the majority of scholars, but they differ as to whether it is obligatory or Sunnah. If one remembers to say it, it may be said either at the beginning of wudoo’ or during it. There is no difference between men and women in the way wudoo’ should be done. It is mustahabb to say, when one has completed wudoo’: “Ashhadu an laa ilaaha ill-Allaah wahdahu laa shareeka lah, wa ashhadu anna Muhammadan ‘abduhu wa rasooluhu (I bear witness that there is no god except Allaah alone with no partner or associate, and I bear witness that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allaah),” because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “There is no one among you who does wudoo’ and does it properly and does it well, then he says, ‘Ashhadu an laa ilaaha ill-Allaah wahdahu laa shareeka lah, wa ashhadu anna Muhammadan ‘abduhu wa rasooluhu,’ but the gates of Paradise will be opened to him and he may enter through whichever of them he wishes.” (Narrated by Muslim, al-Tahaarah, 345). A report narrated by al-Tirmidhi adds: “Allaahumma ij’alni min al-tawwaabeena wa’j’alni min al-mutatahhireen  (O Allaah, make me one of those who repent and make me one of those who purify themselves).” (al-Tahaarah, 50; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh Sunan Abi Dawood, no. 48) See al-Mulakhkhas al-Fiqhi by al-Fawzaan, 1/36) With regard to your saying “may Allaah have mercy on the Prophet “, what is prescribed in Islam is to send blessings and peace upon him, as Allaah commanded us to do when He said (interpretation of the meaning): “Allaah sends His Salaah (Graces, Honours, Blessings, Mercy) on the Prophet (Muhammad), and also His angels (ask Allaah to bless and forgive him). O you who believe! Send your Salaah on (ask Allaah to bless) him (Muhammad), and (you should) greet (salute) him with the Islamic way of greeting (salutation, i.e. As‑Salaamu ‘Alaykum)” [al-Ahzaab 33:56] And Allaah knows best. Islam Q&A (www.islam-qa.com)

Re: What do you do when your local Imam says there is no need for a daleel?
Barr
01/28/02 at 09:16:22
Assalamu'alaikum :-) With every knowledge seeker, there must be trust between him and the person that he seeks knowledge from. If not, there can't be any transmission of knowledge. However, to my mind, it is within the Islamic Spirit that we learn things with certainty, with basis from the Qur'an and Sunnah. Facts, and not mere heresay. InshaALlah, I think the imam would not teach anything deviant. However, I think as a student, perhaps, you can respectfully ask him to provide it as it would certainly put your heart at ease as well, as one would know for certain that what we learn is from the Qur'an and SUnnah, and hence, closing all doors of fitnah. Upon saying that, I think we should also bear in mind that in the Science of Fiqh, there are various interpretations of various hadiths, which includes its meanings as well as the strength of it etc. What is adopted is a certain school of thought may be interpreted in a different light with another, as the tools used are different. That doesn't necessarily mean that one is totally wrong and the other is right. Hence, if there is something that seems alien to us, I think it's best that we hold it, first, till we get clarification, as you have done, before passing judgements. Just becoz, we have not come across a hadith that supports an interpretation, doesn't mean it doesn't exist, for we are not muhadithin. So, do go back to the teacher and seek clarification, inshaALlah. It seems that he is open for explaination as he has done. However, if you feel more comfortable with another teacher, you might want to study from him instead. Let's have husnuzon (good thoughts) towards our teachers, and yet, be vigour and pro-active in seeking knowledge. Take care, akhi :-) Allahua'lam

Re: What do you do when your local Imam says there is no need for a daleel?
reg
01/28/02 at 13:57:52
[slm] If you can't remember whether your wudu is intact from the last time you performed it is it better to perform wudu or not?. I don't want to waste water unnecessarily, nor do I want to perform salaat without wudu, so I'm confused what to do. [wlm]

Re: What do you do when your local Imam says there is no need for a daleel?
se7en
01/28/02 at 14:21:41
as salaamu alaykum, certainty is not removed by doubt, so I don't think it's necessary for you to make wudu again.

Re: What do you do when your local Imam says there is no need for a daleel?
reg
01/29/02 at 22:22:13
[quote] as salaamu alaykum, certainty is not removed by doubt, so I don't think it's necessary for you to make wudu again.   [/quote] [slm] doh, that's so obvious, I feel stupid :o I also found a coupla sites that tell you how to perform wudu that said that you don't have to do it if you're not sure you have it from last time. Well, anyway thanks for your help sister 10Minus3 :D , it was buggin me for a long time. [wlm]

Re: What do you do when your local Imam says there is no need for a daleel?
se7en
01/30/02 at 20:23:12
as salaamu alaykum, bro reg s'all good :)  And it's not that obvious I don't think..  I never knew that until my imam mentioned it. I just wanted to explain what I said a bit better, because I'm told it's a bit confusing :)  The basic principle that I've learned about wudu is what I said above: certainty is not removed by doubt.  So for example, if you're *certain* that you made wudu - but you think that you *may* have broken it - you don't need to make wudu again.  Because your certainty (that you had wudu) is not removed by your doubts (that you broke it).  And the same goes the opposite way.  If you are *certain* you broke your wudu somewhere along the line - but you think *maybe* that you made wudu after that - you go by your state of un-wudu-ness because that's what you're certain about. I hope that makes some kind of sense :) The other thing I want to mention here is that, it's *always* good to perform wudu, so please don't think I'm discouraging you here :)  It's something that washes away your sins, that brings noor to your countenance, so do it as often as possible :)  wAllahu a'lam. Back to br Abd_Allah's situation.. I think I mentioned this before but.. asking for daleel is something that needs to be done *super* politely, especially if you're young.  Sometimes if it's asked in a mean or derisive way (or what comes across as such), it can seem like your questioning the persons qualifications, that you don't trust him/her or even that you're accusing the person of lying.   Of course, inshaAllah none of that is your intention when asking for daleel, but that's what you need to get your imam to understand :)  My advice would be to phrase things the way sister Barr has, about easing your heart and closing the doors of fitna and so forth.  I think it'd be hard for an imam to refuse daleel if it's asked for in that way. wAllahu a'lam. wasalaamu alaykum wa rahmatAllah. ps - in lines with what sister barr said, the *only* things I know scholars agree upon when it comes to obligatory elements of wudu are those mentioned in the Qur'an in Surah [url=http://www.orst.edu/groups/msa/quran/quran/5.html#6]Al-Ma'idah[/url], and also the niyyah.
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