The Ahmediyyat

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The Ahmediyyat
SaadZ
02/02/02 at 16:27:03
AS salaam u alaikum,

I have a lot of friends who are ahmedi, but cant ever really tell me what makes their beliefs different then ours except by saying that "The messiah has already come down". could someone please give me information on the ahmediyyat, what makes them different then sunnis and what are some loopholes in their belief that i could strike up debate with. thanx in advance...

saadia
Re: The Ahmediyyat
Kashif
02/02/02 at 20:32:55
assalaamu alaikum

The Ahmediyya are followers of a man named Mirza Ghulam Ahmed who lived in Qadian, India in the 19th century. He preached teachings that were contrary to what is foundin the Qur'an and what is confirmed upon the Prophet Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wa sallam.

Amongst such teachings was that he was a Prophet/Messiah after the Prophet Muhammad. Such a belief as we all know leads one to become apostate and a disbeliever in Allah & His Messenger Muhammad.

He preached against jihad and taught that one's loyalty should be to the British crown, to the extent that he wrote:

"The greater part of my life has been spent supporting and defending the British government. And i have written so many books regarding the prohibition of jihad and obedience to the British that were they to be gathered together they would fill fifty book cases." [Tiryaq al-Quloob, p.15]

His character was notable for being one quite in contradiction to what we know of the lives of true Prophets, i.e. humility, kindness and nobility. In contrast to this, the Mirza was known for his repulsive cursing of his enemies, and his ostentatious style of living. The Prophet Muhammad left this earth with very few possessions, however the Mirza lived in the lap of luxury. Amongst his sources of income were for example, the sale of title to burial in the "heavenly graveyard" at Qadian.

Even if we leave all this aside, there are two incidents in the Mirza's life which are of great significance. The first is his prophecy that he would marry a particular lady, Muhammadi Begum, and that the occurrence of this marriage was something so definite that it had actually been revealed to him by Allah that it would take place. He went even further saying that the fulfilment of this Prophecy would be a sign of his truthfulness.

Yet, he never married her. Despite all his threats and pleading, the hand of Muhammadi Begum went to another man, and together they lived a long and prosperous life - in contradiction to what the Mirza had prophesied if she married other than him.

The second is the result of the Mirza's mubahala with one of the scholars of the region towards the end of his life. A mubahala is the mutual calling down of Allah's curse upon the one who is a liar and in this particular instance the curse invoked called for a terrible and quick death upon the liar.

The result was that the Mirza died around two years after this event suffering from cholera and passing away in the toilet. The scholar on the other hand lived for forty years afterwards.

---------------

My advice is that before you engage in any discussion with your Qadiani acquaintances, that you shore up your own understanding of Islam and do some research on Qadianism. There can be nothing worse than discussing issues with them but not knowing how to respond to their arguments.

Your discussions with them i believe should take place with the attitude that they are people who are on a seriously astray path and who need to be brought back to the truth. This is done with gentleness, kindness and wisdom. Yet at the same time be firm upon what you know to be the truth.

My personal recommendation is that you try to get a copy of "Qadianism - a critical study" by Abul-Hasan Ali Nadwi, or "Qadianis" by Ihsan Ilahi Zaheer.

I reviewed the first of these [url=http://www.jannah.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl/YaBB.pl?board=ark&action=display&num=3257]here[/url], and you can read it online or print it out by visiting a different website [url=http://alhafeez.org/rashid/nadwi.htm]here[/url].

Kashif
Wa Salaam


Re: The Ahmediyyat
SaadZ
02/03/02 at 13:39:04
THANK YOU. yea i just basically had a long conversation with 2 of them about their beliefs just in order to know from their point of view what they are about. I have one book, i dont remember what it is called, inshaALLAH i will look into the books you mentioned.

saadia
Re: The Ahmediyyat
eleanor
02/03/02 at 14:00:29
slm

I mentioned before that I am literally surrounded by Ahmadiyyas here where I live. It's a very difficult situation for us, because since they are practically all Pakistani, they are always inviting me and my husband around. I'm not sure if it is any better or any worse to socialise with Ahmadiyyas or Christians/Jews whatever... ???

Another thing. They are *very* active. Always having open day at the mosque and question and answer sessions on "Islam" on a Sunday afternoon. My husband mentioned it a few weeks ago and we went along to see what was up. There were about 20 people there, all curious to find out about Islam. One had a book with him, written by a German convert to Ahmaddiya, about the Sept.11th attacks, and he said it was the best book on the subject he has read thus far. The Q and A session went pretty predictably - status of woman, mullahs, extremism, quran, arabic etc etc. They were all answered by the german convert, who is a writer and has been Ahmadiyya for 20 years or so. Incredibly enough, he answered the questions pretty well, much as I would have. So I was happy enough with that.
Then they gave out free literature to everyone, loads of books and pamphlets, all published by themselves of course. Then there was food.

Around the dinner table, one Ahmadiyya guy, the head of this province started rabbiting on about how conditions are unbearable for Ahmadiyyas in Pakistan, how they are persecuted over there, how it is forbidden for them to offer salams to anyone on the street, how they are not allowed to pray etc etc etc. The Germans of course were lapping it all up and saying "oh poor you" and stuff. I turned incredulous to my husband and said "listen to the BS he's coming out with..". My husband got up and went over to some other people. Then the guy started going on about how they believe the Messiah has come, how Jesus doesn't necessarily have to come back in the same body he was risen in.. It was unreal. Then, Alhamdullilah, I got into conversation with a couple of people sitting on either side of me, and I told them I was Muslim, but not Ahmadiyya, and why. They were really interested to hear all about how I came to Islam, and most importantly I told them they could by all means read the free literature that they had received, but please not to leave it at that, they had to do more reading and research if they wanted to find the truth. Also one man asked me if it was true, about how they are treated in Pakistan and I could tell him that my husband said it was a load of rubbish as far as he's concerned.
So, ALHAMDULLILAH, it was a good mission to go there, as far as I was concerned.

Sorry for rambling on... Hope it was vaguely interesting...

My advice - try to minimise contact as much as possible with these people..they can be dangerous.. IMO

wasalaam
eleanor
Re: The Ahmediyyat
eleanor
02/03/02 at 14:02:31
slm

forgot to add - I plugged Jannah.org for all it's worth ;)

wasalaam
eleanor
Re: The Ahmediyyat
MalikShabazz
02/03/02 at 16:12:46
the thing with most of ahmadiyyah is that they're more concerned at first converting people to islam, then to their beliefs

the differences can be very subtle, and that is why the ahmadiyyah movement is often looked upon as a simple 'sect' of islam by non-muslims
(though we all know it is rather a cult or new religion)

may Allah give guidance to all of 'em misguided souls, amen

was salam
Re: The Ahmediyyat
MalikShabazz
02/03/02 at 16:15:55
btw,

ahmadis believe that mirza ghulam ahmed was both the messiah and the mahdi

a bit cooky, since the hadith distinguish between the two
(as the mahdi is from the house of the Prophet, saw, and Jesus, pbuh, was born long before the Prophet, saw)

so... you just have to watch out

i'd say treat them like you'd treat jews/christians

was salam
Re: The Ahmediyyat
Kashif
02/03/02 at 17:08:22
[quote]the thing with most of ahmadiyyah is that they're more concerned at first converting people to islam, then to their beliefs

the differences can be very subtle, and that is why the ahmadiyyah movement is often looked upon as a simple 'sect' of islam by non-muslims(though we all know it is rather a cult or new religion)[/quote]
I do disagree. How can they convert a person to Islam when they themselves aren't Muslims?
NS
Re: The Ahmediyyat
hijabi101
02/03/02 at 17:08:30
wow, i never knew how far away from islam they were. I never really looked into it, but I have a friend who is ahmadi and she classifies herself as a muslim not as a sunni or anything just as a muslim...I never really told her that she's not one, because I can't really do that but my parents always told me to stay away from them because they are known to be two faced, im not saying each and everyone but the ones my family has come across. Oh yea and another question, do they pray salah? because, at our msa in school we have jumah and she always makes an excuse that she can't pray so i was wondering wuts up?/ alrite thnx salam
Re: The Ahmediyyat
AyeshaZ
02/03/02 at 20:40:38


Asalamu Alykum,

I thought Ahmadiya and Qadiyani were 2 seperate things? Alhamdullilah, this clears up a lot of misconceptions. I have a question so Mirza's are also the same thing? And what about Agha Khans?? Are they all the same???
ok jazakumAllahu Khair
Re: The Ahmediyyat
Saleema
02/03/02 at 22:14:40
[slm]

I have lots of pamphlets on the Ahmadiya beliefs. Anyone needs them, let me know. drop me an email at saleemagul@hotmail.com

If you want, i can mail them to you. At no cost to you.

[wlm]
Re: The Ahmediyyat
Anik
02/04/02 at 01:58:27
aslaamua laikum

I hate that... when people use the framework of ISLAM the true religion

feed it to the unknowing,

then slowly filter in their own bida'h and so on... Ismailis do the same ata'ferlah. aslamu alaikum. abdullah,.
Re: The Ahmediyyat
MalikShabazz
02/04/02 at 07:30:17
aga khanis/ismailis are different from ahmadis

they spewed off from shia'ism, and are as far away from islam as is possible

they call themselves muslims but they've screwed up whatever they're doing so bad that they're kafirs, plain and simple (both groups)

was salam
Re: The Ahmediyyat
Anik
02/04/02 at 11:30:32
aslamau alaikum

yes, they are really a mockery of truth.

They have secret prayer services because they know wht they do is considered ridiculous and has clearly hindu influences to it.

My wife once walked in, not reading the "Do NOT DISTURB!" posters plastered over the window of our campus musselah, and interupted their service by accident


She saw a giant walll sized picture of Karim Aga Khan in front where we have our "Qibla board" and the people were in sujud to it.

Sickening.

Really sickening.

But what is worse:

a group that says they believe in Allah SWT and His Last Prophet SAW but have a authoritative imam (Ismailis),

or a group that believes in Allah SWT and says there is another prophet (Ahmadhis)?

Many of these number actually know what they are doing is wrong, but keep doing it becase notice their communities are structured so that it is very hard socially for people to leave.

It is SO hard to enter an Ismaili jamaat khanay.  They know every single one by name and face and can detect an intruder *like that*.  They don't want outsiders to see their things.

Astag'ferallah to both, they are all and both bid'ah, corrupted and the lesson will come harshly to them, Allah please be merciful to them as they know not what they do. asalaamau alaikum. abdullah,.
Re: The Ahmediyyat
SaadZ
02/04/02 at 13:50:11
THANKZ SOO MUCH FOR THE INFORMATION...

ive decided that im going to research some  more, and just reaffirm my beliefs as a muslim before i go to debate or discuss with them, all my friends are afraid for me, that i might get sucked in because there are more of them and only one of me.

so inshaALLAH,i will put this information to good use...later.

saadia
Re: The Ahmediyyat
eleanor
02/05/02 at 05:26:30
slm

They use the beauty, logic and truth of Islam to convert people to Islam first, and then when they've got them, they bring in the Mirza Ghulam Ahmed thing.

They pray salat, but have a different kalima (adding Mirza Ghulam Ahmed to it) and different duas at different times in salat. They pray away from normal Muslims. We had a visitor once and my husband said it was Maghrib time and did he want to pray, and he got all shifty and uncomfortable and wouldn't pray. Later my husband said he didn't want to pray, but also didn't say why. Another guy we know has no problems with saying salat in our house, but alone in another room.

Once my husband was at a meeting in their mosque and all at once it came to a part where the leader said "All non-Ahmediyyas please leave for 10 minutes". So he had to go out, had no idea why.
They have songs for children that go like "I'm an Ahmediyya child.." (*note: not Muslim child), and when they have a new convert then they say "how long have you been Ahmediyya?".

They won't marry their daughters to anyone except an Ahmediyya, and it's pretty much like that with the sons too. My husband knew of one man who married a german non-muslim, and he was totally boycotted from the community.

It's in their beliefs that you shouldn't pray for the non-Ahmediyya dead, and there is a story of one young man in India who converted to Ahmediyya, from Muslim, and when his mother died he didn't go to the funeral or pray for her, and he was highly commended for it by Mirza Ghulam Ahmed. :o   Can you imagine our beloved true Rasulullah praising something like that? Our dear prophet who continued to give presents to his wife's family long after she had died?  

Stories like this make me really uneasy about the Ahmediyyas.
On the surface they may seem to behave, act and be like a Muslim, but their beliefs are warped and they won't listen to any proofs you may have against them.

wasalaam
eleanor
Re: The Ahmediyyat
zanfaz
02/05/02 at 23:34:21
[slm]

Yesterday, my cable man aired a new channel, MTA [Muslim Television Ahmeddiya's] International. They have programs in French, German, Urdu, etc. There was this Q&A session going on where a scholar took up questions and answered in english and it was translated by another man in french.

I don't know of any Ahmeddiya's in our locality. Probably, the cable man didn't know about the channel. I'm gonna talk to him today, insha'Allah and have it removed.

wassalam
Faizan
Re: The Ahmediyyat
gift
02/06/02 at 04:32:01
[slm]

we get this channel in the uk too - its free on dish - so we can't get rid of it. they have the funding from somewhere to beam this channel out free because they are so organised.

you know they teach all those languages you mention brother faizan along with arabic and chinese!!!

[wlm]
Re: The Ahmediyyat
MorningStar
02/06/02 at 05:36:56

[quote]

we get this channel in the uk too - its free on dish - so we can't get rid of it. they have the funding from somewhere to beam this channel out free because they are so organised.

[/quote]

Salaams,

I live in Leicester and our mosque organised a petition against this channel. Although we can't stop them from airing the channel, we can certainly protest against them using the word 'Muslim' in their channel name.

Perhaps more mosques in the UK should do the same and at least we can prevent them from portraying themselves as Muslims and misleading the Muslim community...you can just imagine someone who has just converted to Islam or someone who doesn't know much about the religion tuning in and thinking it was a genuine Muslim channel..may Allah keep us all on the straight path always...ameen.

Wasalaam
Re: The Ahmediyyat
eleanor
02/06/02 at 06:13:52
slm

[quote]

Although we can't stop them from airing the channel, we can certainly protest against them using the word 'Muslim' in their channel name.

[/quote]

That's a good idea.. Maybe we should all send mails to their webpage (al-islam.org ..  astafirughllah) and protest or something. I'd be on for it anyway.

I hate the way that the currrent Mirza, whatever his name is, just sits there all pompous and answers questions off the top of his head. I get really angry and tell my husband not to listen to anything he says, because he never quotes one single hadith or gives a proper qur'anic reference, like for example Dr.Naik does.

Another thing, they think it's more important to learn Urdu than to learn Arabic, because Urdu is the language of their founding father, the self proclaimed messiah..  :(

There's so much stuff about them that's shady that it's better just to stay away from them.

wasalaam
eleanor
Re: The Ahmediyyat
SaadZ
02/07/02 at 11:22:52
Salaams,

i had am reading that book that Br. Kashif reccomended and i had one question. What do they mean by Mirza Ghulam Ahmed is the Messiah? Like do they mean hes the return of Mehdi alay-salam or what? like im confused.

saadia
Re: The Ahmediyyat
Arsalan
02/07/02 at 13:30:04
A couple of weeks ago, I went to the Student Activities office of our campus to renew status of our MSA, and what do I find?  

There's a new organization around.  AMSA: Ahmadi Muslim Student Association!

Grrrr! ):(
Re: The Ahmediyyat
Anonymous
02/11/02 at 01:12:49
salaam 'alaikum

Here's the skinny on ismailies (batinis):

Split from the main stream shia sect on the imamate of the 7th imam.
After the death of 6th shi'i imam Jafar As Sadiq, the mainstream shia
followed his son Musa Al Kazim while a group chose his elder(?) son Ismail
(who was already dead! So the next in line was Ismail's son Mohammad).
First split between Qarmatians and Fatimids. Then followed the Fatimid
dynasty in Egypt (909 AD). The Qarmatians faded away around 1070.

Saladin suppressed the Fatimid rulers of Egypt in 1171 AD, whereupon he
united Egypt with the Baghdad based rival Abbasid Caliphate.

Following is some info with main population concentrations.

           Fatimid dynasty
                   
+--------------+----+-----------+
                             
Agha           Dawoodi         Druze
Khanis         Bohras          (1021 AD)
(Nizaris)      (Musta'lis)     (Lebanon)
(1094 AD)      (1094 AD)
(spread out)   (Gujarat India)

The Ismailis have always been considered a heretical sect without
exception by the ahl-as-sunnah due to their beliefs in secret religious
knowledge revealed only to a select few (hence the name Batinis). As an
aside, the bohris (Dawoodi Bohras, as they are called in indo-pak) have
rituals very close to the twelvers (the ones in Iran and Iraq).

ref: "Encyclopedia of the Orient" http://lexicorient.com/e.o (A must
visit website)
Re: The Ahmediyyat
SuperHiMY
02/12/02 at 00:52:41



        AsalamAlay.com,
        Peace and e-Greetings be upon you.


        I don't wanna duplicate anything said in this thread,
        so Here's my two dhirham's worth:


        First off, Beware that www.Islam.COM  IS OWNED by the Qadianis.

        It ain't Sunni Islam that is on that site.

        So, InshAllah, NEVER refer anyone to Islam.com, Enuff
        ppl blindly go to that site anyway.

       


        In my city of Toronto, is the City with THE MOST Qadianis
        in the Western World after London England.

        Just north of Canada's Wonderland, Our cheapo ripoff of
        DisneyLand, is the Qadiani Masjid(sic).

        Located where it is, sometimes ppl mistake it for part of
        the amusement park's architecture.

        I went to this building one day, Walked all around, it was
        open and no one was there.

        It is one of the MOST TECHNOLOGICALLY advanced buildings
        I have ever seen. Closed circuit TV throughout, Information
        on how to subscribe to their satellite channel is readily
        available. Their Musallah(sic) had a good size. etc etc.


        So what to do?

        From the Guyanese and Trinidadian Muslims in my City of Toronto,
        I learned that what they do back in their countries, is
        that the sunnis become part of the jammat near to election
        time, and then the sunnis vote in a Sunni Board of Directors
        for that Masjid, then MAKE it a HALAL masjid.

        There's one million qadianis/ahmeddis worldside.

        A Billion three muslims.

        Ain't democracy grand?  :O




        Lastly, as a MATTER OF HISTORICAL FACT:

        Mr. Ghulam Ahmed Qadian of Lahore, Died
        UPSIDE DOWN IN AN OUTHOUSE, his head was in the
        bottom of the outhouse.

        GO ASK ANY educated Qadiani/Ahmeddi person about how
        their leader DIED...THey quickly change the subject,
        or as I have seen, they get mad.

       

        In North America, the 'Nation of Islam' or NOI are
        sorta to the African American Community what the
        Qadiani/Ahmeddis are to South Asian Desis.

        I have a quality article about that on my website [url=http://tyo.phpwebhosting.com/islambank.community/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=180]CLICK HERE[/url].


        Lastly, Zulfikar Bhutto, witht he support of Alama Moudoodi,
        together ammended the constitution of Pakistan to include
        in clear language that Qadianis are NOT MUSLIM.

        And Lahore (Pakistan) is the birth place of Qadianism.




        Back in India, at the Jami Masjid Dehli, there was a Debate
        between one of the Great Sunni Imams of the day and Ghulam
        Qadian himself.

        In front of 50,000 muslims in the masjid, The Sunni Imam
        began by challenging Mr. Qadian:

        The Imam ordered a pen on the table where they were sitting
        to rise up and write the Shahada in arabic, IF he, the Sunni
        Imam was correct.

        50,000 people witnessed this with their own eyes.

        Then the Sunni Imam challenged the Qadiani-founder to
        do the same. The pen did not move.

        That about did it for that debate.

        My grandfather was in that Jamaat that day and told the
       story to my dad who then told it to me so many years later
       when I first asked him about these people.




        ~ HiMY! ~



   
Re: The Ahmediyyat
jannah
02/12/02 at 09:49:48
This thread is now closed.


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