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Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| Canadians just as racist as Americans |
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| Moe_D |
| 12/19/02 at 21:41:53 |
| Muslim garb a liability in job market, study finds Women wearing traditional head scarves turned away by prospective employers By GRAEME SMITH http://www.globeandmail.com Wednesday, December 18, 2002 – Print Edition, Page A10 Employers in Canada's most diverse city often reject women wearing Muslim head scarves in favour of identical candidates who don't, according to an undercover study of hiring practices released yesterday. Researchers chose three pairs of fake job applicants to visit 16 factories, fast-food outlets, and retail stores in Toronto. They selected pairs of women who seemed virtually the same: Their résumés, ages, races, accents, countries of birth and experience in Canada were nearly identical. In many circumstances, the woman wearing a head covering fared worse than her twin. At 12.5 per cent of the sites, the visibly Muslim woman was told that no job was available, while the woman without ascarf was told the opposite. About a quarter of the employers didn't give the visibly Muslim woman a chance to apply for the job but accepted an application from the other woman. More troublesome than the bare statistics are the stories of women whose aspirations are crushed, said Judy Vashti Persad, who worked on the research for a community group called Women Working with Immigrant Women. "It really affects the self-esteem and confidence of these women," Ms. Persad said. One woman wearing a head scarf walked into a clothing factory, Ms. Persad said, and a supervisor told her there were no jobs available. The woman said she'd seen a sign outside advertising vacant positions, but the supervisor repeated the rejection and told her she could not leave her résumé or fill out an application form. When a similar candidate without the scarf walked into the same factory, Ms. Persad said, she was told there were job openings, her résumé was accepted, and she was told to expect a call for an interview. The 69-page study, funded by the municipal and federal governments, uses a quote from an employer as its title: "No Hijab is Permitted Here." Hijab refers to the Muslim dress code for women. Besides the undercover job applications, the study also uses material from focus groups, a small survey, and consultations with service agencies. Identities of both employers and participants were kept confidential for legal reasons, but the study quotes many anonymous women about job hunting. A computer programmer described her conversation with an interviewer: "He told me he would be frank and tell me something nobody else will: that unless I changed the way I dress, I will never be hired for this job or a similar one in another company." Taking off the scarf for the sake of expediency is a serious affront to the beliefs of some Muslims, said Safia Shire, employment program co-ordinator for Culturelink, a not-for-profit agency in Toronto. "It is something personal that needs to be respected," she said. But Ms. Shire, who wears a moderate scarf that leaves her whole face exposed, said she understands the pressure that some women feel to accommodate the growing racism around them. "Lately, things are really different," Ms. Shire said. "I see people staring at me. It's really very hard." The Ontario Human Rights Code instructs employers to accommodate religious observances where reasonably possible. But Ms. Shire says many employers are willing to risk breaking the rules rather than take a chance that their customers will react badly. "Things are not getting easier for Muslims in this country," Nina Karachi-Khaled of the Canadian Council of Muslim Women said. |
| Re: Canadians just as racist as Americans |
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| bhaloo |
| 12/19/02 at 22:21:39 |
| [slm] I had always heard that Canadians were very tolerant people and not racist, this is unfortunate to hear that this sort of behavior is happening there. :( |
| Re: Canadians just as racist as Americans |
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| Abdullah |
| 12/19/02 at 23:20:58 |
| [slm] I would have to say we can't make generalizations and compare between Canadians and Americans, because I have heard praise for both sides in the acceptance issue at different times. For example, muslims tell me USA is better ("it rocks") because people only care about money, not how you look, as long as you get the job done. As a Canadian, born and raised but still of a "minority group", it always sucked growing up in the 80's and 90's. I always wished I was white to be honest. I am SO Canadian yet I am still asked when I came here. I only imagine how my dad felt when he came in '65. But as I grew up, more and more immigrants came, and the mainstream WASPs became the minority in many areas. Now I'm not trying to paint this as a color issue, but it deals with impressions of people. Islam is not tolerated in many many places. Even places that know Islam very well, or places where muslims are a new addition. Even where it is tolerated, there is always subtle racism (that's not exactly the best word as Islam is not a racial concept). The Sikhs here have come a long way and are accepted everywhere, but they did it by really showing their Canadian spirit- something I think a lot of muslims wouldn't want to or should be doing (ie. supporting Canada on all issues). I feel like Shayton is teasing me, whispering that my beard will never get me a job, as I have began searching. And I am amongst the cynics that believes my beard will not get me a job in the marketing/management field because they want clean-shaven, "goodlooking" hotshots, I guess I have to have more trust in Allah SWT. Its just something I have to fight I tell myself. Sadly, I was born here, but I feel its time for me to leave soon. I don't even want to stay here. Multiculturalism sucks in that way- I would rather give up my culture and be accpeted rather than being a "mosaic" and always standing apart. My own mind has such a dichotomy, whether Canada is racist or not, that I can't decide on any one opinion. It really depends where you are here. |
| Re: Canadians just as racist as Americans |
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| amatullah |
| 12/22/02 at 07:45:40 |
| Here is some disturbing information on attitudes in Canada towards Muslims. I am beginning to think the extent of the multi-culturalism is a Chinese new years dragon parade sham. Subject: Poll supports limiting Muslim immigration Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 22:10:17 -0500 Canadian attitudes on immigration hardening against Muslims: poll 44 % support putting limit on immigration Mike Blanchfield The Ottawa Citizen Saturday, December 21, 2002 The image of the "Canadian mosaic" as a benevolent tapestry of different cultures and religions is challenged by a new poll that indicates a strong core of support for keeping Muslim immigrants out of the country more than a year after the trauma of Sept. 11, 2001. The results suggest that hardened attitudes to immigration -- particularly from Muslim countries -- which emerged in the immediate aftermath of the terrorist attacks on New York City and Washington, D.C., have moderated only slightly. In November, a poll for Maclean's magazine, Global TV and the Citizen asked 1,400 Canadians across the nation to assess various ways the government might want to respond to the threat of terrorism. "Restricting the number of immigrants that come to Canada from Muslim countries" received a 44-per-cent approval rating, with support running highest in Central Canada and lowest in Alberta and British Columbia. A marginally lower number -- 42 per cent -- opposed such restrictions, while 12 per cent of respondents were neutral. The 44-per-cent approval was down from 49 per cent a year earlier, but the continuing strength of support for restricting Muslims su rprised the Strategic Counsel, the Toronto pollster that conducted the Nov. 1-12 telephone survey, whose national results are considered accurate within 3.1 percentage points, 19 times out of 20. Adding to the impression of a tough attitude, 51 per cent of respondents said refugee claim-ants should be kept in a secure location -- jails, essentially -- before their cases are heard, down from 59 per cent a year earlier. And 60 per cent said anyone who arrives on an airplane without valid identification should be sent back on the next flight to the place from which they came, compared to 65 per cent in last year's poll. "Given our history for being a haven for refugees, there doesn't seem to be quite the public support for what you'd want," said pollster Michael Sullivan. "It questions our commitment to the mosaic." Mr. Sullivan says the Sept. 11 attacks may have unleashed a sleeping intolerance toward foreigners across Canada. He says the poll results raise some provocative questions about Canada's nice-guy image. "I suspect it's 9/11. Has this allowed, somehow, some of our more intolerant feelings to become more socially acceptable? "Are we more comfortable voicing them?" The poll indicates that attitudes vary by region. Support for restricting the number of immigrants from Muslim countries was highest in Quebec at 48 per cent, followed by Ontario at 45 per cent, and lowest in Alberta at 35 per cent,followed by B.C. at 39 per cent. The figures were 42 per cent for Saskatchewan and Manitoba and 43 per cent in Atlantic Canada. On the question of sending back people who arrive without valid identification, support was highest in Alberta at 65 per cent, followed by Ontario at 64 per cent, and lowest in Quebec, at 51 per cent. The figures were 61 per cent in B.C., 60 per cent in Saskatchewan/Manitoba and 56 per cent in Atlantic Canada. Support for keeping refugee claimants in a secure location until their cases are heard was highest in Ontario at 55 per cent, followed by Alberta at 52 per cent, and lowest in Sask-atchewan/Manitoba at 43 per cent, followed by B.C. at 45 per cent. The figure was 50 per cent in Quebec and 47 per cent in Atlantic Canada. The regional margins of error, at a 95 per cent confidence level, were within 5.8 percentage points in both B.C. and Alberta, 7.5 in Saskatchewan/Manitoba, 5.1 in Ontario, 5.8 in Quebec and 6.7 in Atlantic Canada. Canadian attitudes to immigration have traditionally "waxed and waned" -- the harder the economic conditions, the harsher the attitude towards immigrants, Mr. Sullivan says. "A lot of people see refugees as people who want to jump the queue. I'm not sure we've always been as hospitable as we might believe." Unlike the U.S., Canada does not detain refugee claimants in jails until their claims can be verified. But plans surfaced recently that show $20 million has been set aside for an immigration detention centre near Pearson Airport in Toronto. The plans show the facility would have escape-proof rooms and barbed wire fences. Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 22:10:17 -0500 Canadian attitudes on immigration hardening against Muslims: poll 44 % support putting limit on immigration Mike Blanchfield The Ottawa Citizen Saturday, December 21, 2002 The image of the "Canadian mosaic" as a benevolent tapestry of different cultures and religions is challenged by a new poll that indicates a strong core of support for keeping Muslim immigrants out of the country more than a year after the trauma of Sept. 11, 2001. The results suggest that hardened attitudes to immigration -- particularly from Muslim countries -- which emerged in the immediate aftermath of the terrorist attacks on New York City and Washington, D.C., have moderated only slightly. In November, a poll for Maclean's magazine, Global TV and the Citizen asked 1,400 Canadians across the nation to assess various ways the government might want to respond to the threat of terrorism. "Restricting the number of immigrants that come to Canada from Muslim countries" received a 44-per-cent approval rating, with support running highest in Central Canada and lowest in Alberta and British Columbia. A marginally lower number -- 42 per cent -- opposed such restrictions, while 12 per cent of respondents were neutral. The 44-per-cent approval was down from 49 per cent a year earlier, but the continuing strength of support for restricting Muslims su rprised the Strategic Counsel, the Toronto pollster that conducted the Nov. 1-12 telephone survey, whose national results are considered accurate within 3.1 percentage points, 19 times out of 20. Adding to the impression of a tough attitude, 51 per cent of respondents said refugee claim-ants should be kept in a secure location -- jails, essentially -- before their cases are heard, down from 59 per cent a year earlier. And 60 per cent said anyone who arrives on an airplane without valid identification should be sent back on the next flight to the place from which they came, compared to 65 per cent in last year's poll. "Given our history for being a haven for refugees, there doesn't seem to be quite the public support for what you'd want," said pollster Michael Sullivan. "It questions our commitment to the mosaic." Mr. Sullivan says the Sept. 11 attacks may have unleashed a sleeping intolerance toward foreigners across Canada. He says the poll results raise some provocative questions about Canada's nice-guy image. "I suspect it's 9/11. Has this allowed, somehow, some of our more intolerant feelings to become more socially acceptable? "Are we more comfortable voicing them?" The poll indicates that attitudes vary by region. Support for restricting the number of immigrants from Muslim countries was highest in Quebec at 48 per cent, followed by Ontario at 45 per cent, and lowest in Alberta at 35 per cent,followed by B.C. at 39 per cent. The figures were 42 per cent for Saskatchewan and Manitoba and 43 per cent in Atlantic Canada. On the question of sending back people who arrive without valid identification, support was highest in Alberta at 65 per cent, followed by Ontario at 64 per cent, and lowest in Quebec, at 51 per cent. The figures were 61 per cent in B.C., 60 per cent in Saskatchewan/Manitoba and 56 per cent in Atlantic Canada. Support for keeping refugee claimants in a secure location until their cases are heard was highest in Ontario at 55 per cent, followed by Alberta at 52 per cent, and lowest in Sask-atchewan/Manitoba at 43 per cent, followed by B.C. at 45 per cent. The figure was 50 per cent in Quebec and 47 per cent in Atlantic Canada. The regional margins of error, at a 95 per cent confidence level, were within 5.8 percentage points in both B.C. and Alberta, 7.5 in Saskatchewan/Manitoba, 5.1 in Ontario, 5.8 in Quebec and 6.7 in Atlantic Canada. Canadian attitudes to immigration have traditionally "waxed and waned" -- the harder the economic conditions, the harsher the attitude towards immigrants, Mr. Sullivan says. "A lot of people see refugees as people who want to jump the queue. I'm not sure we've always been as hospitable as we might believe." Unlike the U.S., Canada does not detain refugee claimants in jails until their claims can be verified. But plans surfaced recently that show $20 million has been set aside for an immigration detention centre near Pearson Airport in Toronto. The plans show the facility would have escape-proof rooms and barbed wire fences. |
| Re: Canadians just as racist as Americans |
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| Sabr |
| 12/27/02 at 14:08:12 |
| [slm] I think muslims are treated unfairly not only in Canada and the US but also down here in the Caribbean ! Its the stigma associated with post Sept 11 (prevealent b4 Sept 11 but now highly rampant ) Employers shun muslim women away.....(they think we aint got no brain under our hijaab-even though our universities are filled with muslim sisters )!! :P and ive heard of muslim bros shaving their beard b4 an interview !! Its sort of a hidden kind of oppression ..guess its common in any part of the world but strange though,,,,, this type of inequity only serves to strengthen us allhamdu-llilah . :) [wlm] |
| Re: Canadians just as racist as Americans |
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| Dude |
| 01/03/03 at 17:55:30 |
| Pretty quick to pull the “racist” card, aren’t we? ::) I live in Surrey, BC (a suburb of Vancouver). The population in Surrey is largely East Indian. Mostly, the Sikhs have the largest community, but there is a very strong Fijian Muslim community too. I am a Caucasian, Canadian born and raised male, and I married a Fijian Muslim. Story: the first time I walked into a Halal butcher to buy some meat was before my wife and I were married. It was during the month of Ramadan, and I wanted to surprise her by cooking her a dinner to break her fast. I went to the Halal butcher, and after standing 10 minutes, watching people come and go, buying bags full of lamb, beef, chicken, and goat, I speak up and ask for some help (I hadn’t been acknowledged). I explain that I need some steaks. They’re out of beef. All beef? Yes. OK. How about some chicken? None left, sorry. Lamb? No. They then ask me why I just don’t go to Safeway and buy some food. I explain that I need some Halal meat for my fiancée, and that I saw a bunch of people just leave with full orders, and that there must be some left they could sell me. They give me a bag full of lamb, and take $15.00 from me. Happy, I take the lamb back home to my apartment, where my roommate is waiting. He’s a chef. He was going to help me cook the food, and I to bring it over to my fiancé’s house for dinner, after their prayers. He opens the bag and asks, “Where the hell did you buy this?”. I tell him from the local Halal butcher (Shaieesta’s Meets, Surrey). He asks me if I paid for it. I said, of course, why? “Because they gave you scraps.” For the record: Canada is, by far, the best Natioj to live in the world. We are the most tolerant of any. Yes, racism exists everywhere, but not nearly to the extent of in the rest of the world (especially Eastern European Nations, the Middle East, Africa, and the US). That being said, we are the envy of the world for our combined wealth, cultural diversity, safety, and social systems. If you want to be successful in Canada, and get an education, there is nothing to stop you, and the Government will even help get you going. The sky is the limit here, and by the way, we have the most beautiful natural environment, too. My wife is clearly an immigrant minority, and has a Muslim last name. She has never had a problem in challenging for highly competitive jobs, and getting them. It could be that employers want employees to shave their beards just like they want them to wear a suit. It doesn’t matter if you’re Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist, Catholic, or Amish…some companies want to portrait a certain image and dress code, and in order to work there, you have to conform. My message to any Canadian complaining about our quality of living: get the hell out of MY COUNTRY! Please, go back to the Middle East, Croatia, Mainland China, Vietnam, Northern Ireland, Russia, or wherever it is you escaped from. You don’t deserve to live in the greatest nation in the world! I AM CANADIAN! |
| 01/03/03 at 17:57:09 |
| Dude |
| Re: Canadians just as racist as Americans |
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| se7en |
| 01/03/03 at 19:06:38 |
| [quote]My message to any Canadian complaining about our quality of living: get the hell out of MY COUNTRY! Please, go back to the Middle East, Croatia, Mainland China, Vietnam, Northern Ireland, Russia, or wherever it is you escaped from. You don’t deserve to live in the greatest nation in the world! [/quote] Ohhh.. I get it. If you're *white* and treated badly based on skin color, you have the right to complain and demand the situation be rectified, because this is a country based on fair treatment, tolerance, and equality and we need to work to make our country one that fulfills it's ideals. But if you're more of a mocha color, and the same things happens to you, you should just shut up and take it, or go somewhere else. Sound right to you? [quote]It doesn’t matter if you’re Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist, Catholic, or Amish…some companies want to portrait a certain image and dress code, and in order to work there, you have to conform. [/quote] So this is a country that prides itself on diversity, multi-culturalism, and tolerance, yet to be successful you have to dress and act like a white, anglo-saxon protestant ??? I don't know if all this makes sense to you, but it sure doesn't make sense to me. Let's be real, and not front behind nice words like "multi-culturalism" and "diversity" unless we truly mean them. If you truly pride yourself in living in a tolerant society, how can you look at these studies and not have the desire to rectify these inconsistencies? How can the solution be 'go back to your home country' or 'change your culture/religion/personal preference to conform' and not changing the confines of society?? just some things to think about.. |
| 01/03/03 at 19:28:32 |
| se7en |
| Re: Canadians just as racist as Americans |
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| BroHanif |
| 01/03/03 at 19:24:47 |
| Salaams, [quote]It doesn’t matter if you’re Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist, Catholic, or Amish…some companies want to portrait a certain image and dress code, and in order to work there, you have to conform. [/quote] When you work for the Lord, the Lord provides. Dude, are you ok ???. You live in a dream world mate if you come out with comments like that. I feel sorry for your Fijian wife, just a question would you mind if her current employer asked her to wear a skirt which was the same width as a belt, high heels and a beige nylon see through blouse and oh yeah have to have her hair in a bun no hijaab, just wondering ?would you approve something like that ?. Salaams Hanif |
| NS |
| Re: Canadians just as racist as Americans |
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| Dude |
| 01/04/03 at 20:21:25 |
| You're both pretty easy wind-ups. The fact is, in most government or union jobs in Canada, if you're a white male, the deck is stacked against you as far as applying and successfully obtaining employment. Most government and union positions have internal mandates to hire a certain amount of ethnic minorities, and a certain number of females. Get over yourselves. In Canada, you really have no excuse to use the racism excuse. |
| Re: Canadians just as racist as Americans |
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| Anonymous |
| 01/04/03 at 23:52:48 |
| OK get over your whiteness buddy guy dude! ?For the record: Canada is, by far, the best Nation to live in the world. We are the most tolerant of any. Yes, racism exists everywhere, but not nearly to the extent of in the rest of the world (especially Eastern European Nations, the Middle East, Africa, and the US). That being said, we are the envy of the world for our combined wealth, cultural diversity, safety, and social systems. If you want to be successful in Canada, and get an education, there is nothing to stop you, and the Government will even help get you going. The sky is the limit here, and by the way, we have the most beautiful natural environment, too. ? -Nice little patriotic outburst. I love Canada but i?m not going to lie just because I love it! Canada is not the mythical land you?re making it into. Not all dreams come true with hard work. Immigrants do face hardships when they get here, and their offspring?s future is effected and it is not taken into consideration when they look at GPA?s and all that. Here is a nice article which states what most of us feel these days even more than pre 9/11 http://islamonline.org/English/News/2002-12/19/article07.shtml but you wouldn?t know living in your skin about daily systemic abuse. Whether you like to admit it or not there is something called insitutionalized racism. And it IS practiced here. And by the way if something happened once to you coz someone is having a bad day or is insulted or whatever, it doesn?t mean they were racist towards you?*racism* is about history, power and privilege. You do the math buddyguy. Many many years ago, my father who by the way looks white, and has an education and a rare field of work, for years he didn?t get a call back from dropping off a resume. When he finally changed his name to something that sounds white he did get a job selling furniture on commission. Yeah reach for the stars, the world is your oyster. (when you are white in Canada with a Europ sounding name!) And i still consider that he has the light-skin privilege there. Don?t get me wrong, you can make it, there is always tokenism in Canada, and if you sell your soul, your culture, your religion, you will most definately have a better chance, EH? About the nature part, it is most beautiful but that too is in need of protection as we are cutting down the last of the rainforests for money! It all falls under the same notion of progress and guidelines that your agenda seems to operate under. I feel embaressed to say i am the same as YOU canadian. What a disgrace you are telling people to go back where they come from if they have any bad experiences here! ? My wife.... ? - I think you should stop validating everything you write in every other post by the fact that you have a fijian muslim wife. I don?t want to get into that whole can of worms too much but let?s just say just because someone has a black friend doens?t automatically make them anti-racist, or at least a non-racist person. Anyway she?s not some trophy piece. ? My message to any Canadian complaining about our quality of living: get the hell out of MY COUNTRY! Please, go back to the Middle East, Croatia, Mainland China, Vietnam, Northern Ireland, Russia, or wherever it is you escaped from. You don?t deserve to live in the greatest nation in the world! ? - this is not YOUR country! It is *native* land to begin with. And look at the conditions they live in! The institutionalized racism is clear. They have taken away their religion and land and given them a bottle instead or they live in unsanitary conditions on reserves. Never mind the abuse in schools and they weren?t allowed to speak their language until mostly it was lost. Within one hundred years of colonization, most of the native population was completely wiped out. That is called genocide! So let?s not romanticize our history a little too much. Drop the pink paint brush and look at the even more recent history and Canada?s own concentration camps. I love Canada but i?m not going to pretend that we don?t have systemic racism here. It was built on it and we need to redeem that whole mistake instead of building on it and adding insult to injury. And who are *you* to dismiss anyone?s experience here anyway? It?s their country just as much as it is theirs and everyone should be able to complain or praise or try to change or whatever. So quick to pull the redneck card aren?t you? Oh well Surry is same mentality as the bible belt chilliwack and abistford,etc. area. This whole mentality of if you love something that there can never be anything wrong with it, and love it or leave it and all this bs just really annoys me. It is exactly this right wing uninformed idealolgy that is bringing Canada further down in the protection of human rights especially since the events of 9/11. So first you sound like a nationalistic ignorant mouthpiece, then you?re a beer commercial?! ?I AM CANADIAN! There was a parody on this except it was an anti-beer commercial and at the end they shout I?.AM?.AN?.A*******! Just thought I?d mention it.. EastVan vibe (more accurately Coast Salish Territory!) |
| Re: Canadians just as racist as Americans |
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| se7en |
| 01/05/03 at 03:04:52 |
| [quote]The fact is, in most government or union jobs in Canada, if you're a white male, the deck is stacked against you as far as applying and successfully obtaining employment. Most government and union positions have internal mandates to hire a certain amount of ethnic minorities, and a certain number of females. [/quote] Is there racism in Canada? It seems by your post that your answer to this question is yes, but that it's a negligible amount. I'd argue that it doesn't seem 'negligible' to the people it happens to, in the same way your treatment in the meat market - which many non-white people encounter on a daily basis - was not something very easy for you to accept or ignore. What I still don't understand is this: You acknowledge that racism and discrimination are wrong, and you claim that you are proud to be a citizen of a country that has the ideals of equality and fair treatment for all. Yet, when people bring forth a study that shows how certain people and companies are not in line with these ideals, that are indeed acting in an extremely *un*Canadian manner, you insult the *victim* and not those guilty of the crime. See why I'm having trouble? Not sure what "wind-up" means (hope it has nothing to do with my mocha color :P) have a [] on me and I hope I've given you some stuff to think about. peace |
| 01/05/03 at 03:11:52 |
| se7en |
| Re: Canadians just as racist as Americans |
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| bhaloo |
| 01/06/03 at 01:21:01 |
| [slm] Hey Dude, welcome to the board. If I didn't choose the nick bhaloo I probably would have gone with the nick Mocha gave me, surfer dude. :) Se7en, wind up is probably Canadian slang for someone that gets upset easily. Your supposed to be the Sheikha ul Slang, you should know these things. :P Rascism exists everywhere and I think it has a lot to do with ignorance and not working together or being with people of different races and cultures. Based on the facts presented there's racism in Canada, just like there is elsewhere. I'm not in favor of having quotas for certain races for certain jobs. I think the best person for the job should be given it, but the laws here in the US, say otherwise. In a way its a kind of reverse discrimination, trying to correct a wrong that happened a few decades back by punishing people of other races today. |
| 01/06/03 at 01:26:57 |
| bhaloo |
| Re: Canadians just as racist as Americans |
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| sofia |
| 01/06/03 at 10:08:52 |
| Disclaimer: I am not for or against Affirmative Action. However (and maybe this is off-topic, since it hasn't been mentioned directly): my understanding of why Affirmative Action came into being is because different groups of people do not start out with the same resources, and according to some legislators, that's not fair. Someone from the ghetto who makes it as a lawyer, for example, overcomes a lot more hurdles than someone who grew up in a rich suburb, and not even just financially-speaking. If you don't think so, spend some time in places where there are people who are less fortunate than you. Put yourself in their shoes, and see what you would/could do to make it out. And then reflect on how you would be treated once you did get out, how you'd maintain, etc. An interesting book related to this: "Soul Sister" by Grace Halsell, who disguised herself as African-American back in the '50-60s in Harlem and Mississippi, I believe. It'd be interesting to see how things have changed, maybe there's a more current book on this subject. But the fact remains, the '50-60's was way after slavery ended. That being said, is this acceptible in society, to keep the power structure as is? Or can we do more to help those with more obstacles (ie, give them more resoures)? Or can we remove these obstacles, all together (that being ideal)? These are the questions that led to Affirmative Action (from an idealistic standpoint). If we allow things to play out as is (currently), it will obviously not result in the "survival of the fittest," but rather, the survival of the advantaged. If that were not the case, then we'd have a more even distribution of socio-economic status across different ethnic groups by now, without affirmative action. Don't fall into the "bell curve" trap (ie, that some ethnic groups are just less intelligent/less resourceful/more lazy); that's plain racist. Anyhow, like I said, I haven't solidified my opinion on Affirmative Action, and I'm not saying it's a perfect system, just providing an overly simplistic background on it. It can be abused, and it has, no doubt. But I wonder if those who are not "disadvantaged" (relatively speaking) really understand what it means to be disadvantaged. And for those who think that just because "slavery" no longer exists, racism doesn't either, I don't know what to tell you. Maybe, get out more often. Good general read: http://www.wponline.org/vil/books/zb%5Fmri/justice%5Fand%5Fequality.htm From Prophet Muhammad's (s) last speech: “O People! Your Lord is One and your father is one (Adam). You all are from Adam, and Adam was made from dust. Verily, the most honorable amongst you in the sight of God is the one who has piety. No Arab is better than a non-Arab, except if he has more taqwa (God-consciousness/piety). Have I conveyed the message?" |
| NS |
| Re: Canadians just as racist as Americans |
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| Dude |
| 01/06/03 at 17:47:45 |
| I’m personally not against affirmative action either, although it has never affected me. I tend to believe that most employers worth working for will hire the strongest candidate, and affirmative action helps ensure this by giving visible minorities and woman a fair shot in the interview process. Besides, it seems affirmative action only gets airtime when it comes to Government or Union jobs. I have bigger issues with unions (don’t get me started) than affirmative action. Some good points above. Yes- a “wind-up” is someone who is (get ready for it) easily wound-up. For the record as well, the Natives in this country have been given a raw deal with the expediency (or lack thereof) our Provincial Governments are taking in settling land-claim issues. I do take serious issue with Mr. / Mrs. (politically correct here) Anonymous saying that Canada is not my Country. I was born here, and pay taxes. Many of my taxes go directly into supporting our Native reserves, who’s own system of band leadership is the most corrupt form of dictatorship in this country. The natives own worst enemies, for the most part, are themselves. As far as my view on immigration / refugees- I personally support anyone who wants to come to Canada and make a positive contribution to our society. European, African, Asian- whatever. Some of the most amazing success stories are of immigrants who come to Canada with nothing, and completely re-build their lives, and raise their families here. My Father in Law is one- came to Canada under the sponsorship of his son, who got established here. He brought with him 3 kids and his wife. He worked in sawmills, under the table (and losing 4 fingers in the process), and eventually saved enough to start a small cabinet shop. He then bought land, and built a house. He closed his cabinet shop once he reached 65, but his house is paid for, and all 3 of his young children are now contributing members of society. This is a true success story, and yes, he faced racism along the way. Look into any of the ethnic neighborhoods around here (little Croatia, Portugal, Italy, India, China Town…), and you find similar success stories everywhere. And yes, my Grandparents came here from Ireland with nothing, too. My point is this: there are many, many other nations in this world whom have a legitimate claim to being victims of racism, or political suppression. Would I rather be a 16 year-old Native on the streets of Vancouver, or a homeless 16 year-old in Afghanistan? Yugoslavia? Iraq? Jordan? How about Mexico, or even the US? Absolutely I'd rather be destitute in Vancouver. Give me a bad day in Canada over a good day in the streets of Palestine any day. I thank God every day I was born a Canadian. Here, if you are destitute but really have the desire, you can get help from a multitude of social or charitable programs that will help you get back on your feet. Too many healthy young people around here are too busy blaming the government or others for the situation they find themselves in. Usually, these people are born and raised in Canada. If they had half an ounce of the work ethic of some of the immigrants and refugees I’ve been privileged to be associated with over the years, they wouldn’t be in the situation they find themselves in. It’s all about perspective, and you should be thankful to live here. Think about where you could be… BTW Anonymous- nice job on the Surrey slag (LOL). Do you want me to get going with some Vancouver East End bombs? Oops…I guess I already did… Interesting News article today from our local rag: [quote]Salim Jiwa The Province; with News Services Monday, January 06, 2003 Hundreds of Arabs and Pakistanis living illegally in the United States are crowding Canada's border crossings, fearful the war on terror will bring a crackdown on illegal immigrants. The surge at crossings in Quebec, Ontario and B.C. appears to reflect mounting fear among foreigners without legal status in the U.S. that they face a greater risk of deportation, especially if they are of Middle Eastern, South Asian or North African origin. In the past week, almost 250 people have flocked to the border crossing at Lacolle, Que., seeking asylum, Immigration Ministry spokesman Jean Cheney told the Boston Globe. Other border crossings report similar numbers. In a normal week, less than a dozen people seek refugee status in this manner. The influx appears to be caused by new U.S. laws introduced after the terrorist attacks on Sept. 11, 2001, which require non-permanent American residents from designated countries of origin to register with federal agencies before the end of this month. Adding to that worry is concern Canada will soon tighten its own immigration regulations, in accordance with a new U.S.-Canada accord. Under a joint "smart border" agreement called the Safe Third Country Agreement, Canada could begin automatically turning back claimants trying to enter the country from the U.S. No firm implementation date has been set, but the regulations could go into effect as early as this spring. Many of those arriving at Canada's borders made their move after nearly 1,000 Muslim men who turned up to register with U.S. immigration authorities in Los Angeles were thrown in jail two weeks ago. University of B.C. political science professor Dr. Hani Faris says a buildup of anti-Islamic paranoia in the U.S. is forcing Muslims to seek refugee status in Canada. "There have been over the past two years progressive steps taken by the U.S. administration that actually do not give comfort or allow these communities to rest at ease," said Faris, a Lebanese-Canadian who is the author of five books on Arab issues. "Some members of this community who are not U.S. citizens feel their chances of obtaining legal residency are remote." Faris, who works with the Canadian Arab Justice Committee, said Muslim communities feel they are targets of discriminatory legislation, including requirements ordering men mainly from Muslim countries who have overstayed their visas to register by the end of this month. They also fear they will not get a fair hearing. "We cannot in good faith recommend people go register," said Peter Schey, a lawyer with the Center for Human Rights and Constitutional Law in Los Angeles. "We support a fair and effective registration program," Schey said. "But in L.A. so much fear has been created." By this Friday, men from Afghanistan, Algeria, Bahrain, Eritrea, Lebanon, Morocco, North Korea, Oman, Qatar, Somalia, Tunisia, the United Arab Emirates and Yemen must report to U.S. Immigration. Men from Pakistan and Saudi Arabia must report by Feb. 21. While some U.S. lawmakers feel Canada is a haven for refugees, Canadian authorities point out that the U.S. in effect supplied almost 50 per cent of Canada's total refugee influx. Annually, 21,000 people who have entered the U.S., mostly from Mexico, South America, Iran and China, present themselves as refugees at Canada's borders. More than 44,000 refugee claimants were allowed into Canada in 2001, some 13,000 of them entering by way of the U.S. sjiwa@pacpress.southam.ca [/quote] |
| 01/06/03 at 17:55:23 |
| Dude |
| Re: Canadians just as racist as Americans |
|---|
| amatullah |
| 01/06/03 at 23:49:50 |
| dude read this http://cbc.ca/storyview/MSN/2003/01/06/khan030106 |
| Re: Canadians just as racist as Americans |
|---|
| Dude |
| 01/07/03 at 12:00:24 |
| I was going to post that this morning, but you beat me to it. Pretty sad- a huge loss for not only the Muslim community, but the City of Surrey and Province of BC. Khan is / was one of those people that I referred to- he made a positive contribution to the area. What truly sets him apart is that he extended himself to anyone whom needed help, not just Muslims (which is often the case around here). I guess we’ll have to wait to see what the investigation turns up- if anything. They have a couple of leads already. My hope is that it turns out that he wasn’t involved in any illegal activity himself, but possibly related to someone who got in too deep. Very, very sad. My gut feeling is that this is “Upna” related in some way. Khan was very highly respected throughout the whole community- not just among East Indians. Surrey has had huge problems with East Indian Gangs in the last 10 years; the turf war is out of control, and it seems that somebody is being gunned down now almost weekly. As we’ve pointed out here, there is no true “promised land”. Vancouver is one of the safest places to live, anywhere…but we have our problems. The foreign gangs are a problem these days. The East Indian gangs in Surrey, and the Asian gangs in Richmond. They don’t seem to cross each others paths, but maybe that is because they are too busy killing there own off. Again, it isn’t to the extent of what we see in other countries, where gangs or mafia essentially run the country, but they are a problem. Really, they make the rest of their “communities” look bad. This is one reason a lot of people unconnected to the communities paint all East Indians or Asians with the same brush. It doesn’t help when the RCMP investigate these matters, and the community stays quiet…possibly afraid to come forward with information that may lead to arrests. |
| Re: Canadians just as racist as Americans |
|---|
| panjul |
| 01/07/03 at 23:25:52 |
| I do take serious issue with Mr. / Mrs. (politically correct here) Anonymous saying that Canada is not my Country. I was born here, and pay taxes. Many people that face discrimination in Canada (and the US for that matter) were born there too and pay taxes. Consider this: If after you grandparents became citizens of Canada, and if they had faced racism and someone told them to go back to where they came from, wouldn't that make you angry. I bet it would. So when you said "go back to your country!" to people who complained of coming across racism, you had no *right* to say that. |
| Re: Canadians just as racist as Americans |
|---|
| Dude |
| 01/08/03 at 10:52:05 |
| Don't put words in my mouth. People have a right to complain all they want, but some of what I've read are very petty, and from what I see, these people are the types that automatically cry racism if they don't get what they want- instead of working harder or smarter. Take a walk through ANY Vancouver, Toronto, Montreal, or Ottawa office building, and you'll more than likely see more ethnic minorities than you would assume possible. In many, they outnumber caucasians. Nothing wrong with that, as far as I'm concerned. A lot of posters here bring up past history (Canada's treatment of the Japanese in WWII, the slaughter of Natives when Europeans colonized this country, etc, etc...), but in the present, if you can't come to Canada as an immigrant from any impoverished country, and make a better life for yourself and your children, you are a useless tit. One of my favorite Canadians is Olympic Gold Medallist Daniel Igali ( http://www.igali.com/ ), a Nigerian-born and raised wrestler who first visited Canada during the Commonwealth games, and decided not to come home. He became a Canadian citizen, attended Simon Fraser University, and eventually won Olympic Gold for Canada in Sydney. When he won, he laid out our flag, kissed it, and danced around it. It was, bar-none, the best tribute I've ever seen, and it brought a tear to my eye. He gets it, and we're proud to have him. |
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