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Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| Taking Photograph for Memories |
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| Zameer |
| 01/05/03 at 10:48:34 |
| I have heard that many scholars don’t agree with Photography, but as we are normal human being and not a prophet, is okay to do so? I raise this question as I requested a photo of a new born child to be mailed to me, but my cousin who recently reverted to “Deep in Islam” refused to do so saying this could be a sin and don’t like to take a chance. But my view is that there were no Photography during Prophet’s time and there is no such evidence of hadeeds concerning this topic. None of us is worshiping our ancestor’s photographs, or no we hang the pictures of our late father or mother on the wall. The memorable photographs will be left in an album to be enjoyed by grandchildren. Or to see each other the way we look as we live far away and hardly meet. I believe everything on earth can be used for good and evil, and it is the intention which is very important of every human. |
| Re: Taking Photograph for Memories |
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| amatullah |
| 01/07/03 at 00:09:14 |
| This is what sheikh bin baz said about it that you shouldn't. Maybe someone can translate this accurately. íÞæá ÇáÓÇÆá: ãÇ Íßã ÊÌãíÚ ÇáÕæÑ ÇáÝæÊæÛÑÇÝíÉ áÐæÇÊ ÇáÃÑæÇÍ ááÐßÑì¿ ÇáÌæÇÈ: áÇ íÌæÒ ÌãÚ ÕæÑ ÐæÇÊ ÇáÃÑæÇÍ ááÐßÑì¡ Èá íÌÈ ÅÊáÇÝåǺ áÃä ÇáÑÓæá Úáíå ÇáÕáÇÉ æÇáÓáÇã ÞÇá áÚáí ÑÖí Çááå Úäå: áÇ ÊÏÚ ÕæÑÉ ÅáÇ ØãÓÊåÇ æáãÇ ËÈÊ Ýí ÍÏíË ÌÇÈÑ ÚäÏ ÇáÊÑãÐí æÛíÑå Ãä ÇáäÈí Õáì Çááå Úáíå æÓáã äåì Úä ÇáÕæÑÉ Ýí ÇáÈíÊ¡ æÃä íÕäÚ Ðáß. ÝÌãíÚ ÇáÕæÑ ÇáÊí ááÐßÑì ÊÊáÝ ÈÇáÊãÒíÞ Ãæ ÇáÅÍÑÇÞ¡ æÅäãÇ íÍÊÝÙ ÈÇáÕæÑÉ ÇáÊí áåÇ ÖÑæÑÉ¡ ßÇáÕæÑÉ ÇáÊí Ýí ÇáÊÇÈÚíÉ¡ æãÇ ÃÔÈå Ðáß ããÇ íßæä åäÇß ÖÑæÑÉ áÍÝÙå¡ æÅáÇ ÝÇáæÇÌÈ ÅÊáÇÝåÇ. ÇáÔíÎ ÚÈÏ ÇáÚÒíÒ Èä ÚÈÏ Çááå Èä ÈÇÒ |
| Re: Taking Photograph for Memories |
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| jannah |
| 01/07/03 at 01:25:22 |
| You should ask someone knowledgable you trust as there are different opinions on it. Our Imam doesn't think photographs haram per se, but is of the opinion that you shouldn't hang them on your walls and stuff.. Just keep them in an album or something. |
| Re: Taking Photograph for Memories |
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| ltcorpest2 |
| 01/08/03 at 19:10:28 |
| sorry if i appear totally ignorant (err maybe i should say more ignorant that usual), but do muslims not have pictures of family and friends around the house or kids pictures on your desk at work? |
| Re: Taking Photograph for Memories |
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| Zameer |
| 01/09/03 at 06:43:15 |
| hanging photographs on the wall any pictures is bad as the agels will not enter the house is so. Yes there are lost of muslims unknowingly doing so.. |
| Re: Taking Photograph for Memories |
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| jannah |
| 01/09/03 at 14:27:45 |
| ltcorpest the issue is complex.. in islam creating pictures, paintings of people, statues, living beings etc is not allowed because in the past it has lead to iconography and worshipping these things. but photographs are kind of different because no one is "creating" anything it's a representation of what's there... so rulings differ on it... |
| Re: Taking Photograph for Memories |
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| ltcorpest2 |
| 01/09/03 at 18:37:49 |
| Posted by: Zameer Posted on: Today at 6:43am hanging photographs on the wall any pictures is bad as the agels will not enter the house is so. Yes there are lost of muslims unknowingly doing so.. Posted by: jannah Posted on: Today at 2:27pm ltcorpest the issue is complex.. in islam creating pictures, paintings of people, statues, living beings etc is not allowed because in the past it has lead to iconography and worshipping these things. but photographs are kind of different because no one is "creating" anything it's a representation of what's there... so rulings differ on it... Zameer, Does that say that in the Quran about angels not being where pictures are? And Jannah, Is it the act of hanging it on a wall that is against Islam or is it the worshipping or venerating it? And I would guess digital photography would complicate it even more? Since you can digitally change images then it would not necassarily be a representation but a creation. So, if I sent pictures to a muslim they might be offended? I am thinking about 50 other questions but then it will get too complicated to respond, but this is a huge revelation to me about muslims. |
| Re: Taking Photograph for Memories |
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| BroHanif |
| 01/09/03 at 18:58:13 |
| Hiyas [quote]Is it the act of hanging it on a wall that is against Islam or is it the worshipping or venerating it? [/quote] Tough one again... some people especially in the Mid east and in the Us have a picture of the current leader or past legendary PM. Just in Mecca and Medina you have huge frames of the current king, i.e. King fahd. I'm not too comfortable with that, sure keep it in an album but not on a wall Do that in Cold Britania and someone would think his deep into politics... |
| Re: Taking Photograph for Memories |
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| Zameer |
| 01/10/03 at 06:39:53 |
| Bro hanif, yes me too ask my self why would people hang the king's photo in all establishments..(I believe, it is to respect the king may be) but it not necessarily that we should believe and follow the way of the Saudi citizens, because of the reason they just born in the land of birth of Islam. I have read the artical on SHAHI MUSLIM that hanging any kind of pictures of living things is bad and the angels will not enter the house.. |
| Re: Taking Photograph for Memories |
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| Sparrow |
| 01/10/03 at 07:09:42 |
| This is an interesting topic. So back in the day would Muslims have been allowed to have paintings done of their children say, as long as they were not displayed? Peace, Sparrow |
| Re: Taking Photograph for Memories |
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| Caveat |
| 01/10/03 at 16:27:07 |
| Firstly I like to say is that I"m shocked that the administrators said their Imaam said it's not haraam. It is surprising to know someone with the title of an Imaam would consider it not haraam when there's lots of literature, and authentic hadeeth out there clearly stating other wise. With that in mind, here's the answer from real Scholars. --------------------- Question #10668: Taking pictures for memories ? Answer: Praise be to Allaah. The basic principle concerning making pictures of any animate being, whether it is a human or any animal, is that it is haraam, whether the pictures are three-dimensional or are drawn on paper, cloth or walls, etc., or are photographs (taken with a camera), because of the reports in the saheeh ahaadeeth which state that that is not allowed, and threaten the one who does that with a painful torment, and because they may lead to shirk in the form of standing respectfully before them, humbling oneself before them, drawing close to them and venerating them in a manner that is only befitting for Allaah. They are also forbidden because this is a kind of trying to match the creation of Allaah, and because of the temptation inherent in some of them, such as pictures of actresses and naked women, and so-called beauty queens. Among the ahaadeeth which state that this is haraam and that it is a major sin is the hadeeth of Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him), who said, “I heard the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say: ‘Whoever makes an image in this world will be told to breathe the soul into it on the Day of Resurrection, and he will never be able to do that.’” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari and Muslim). He [Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him)] also narrated that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Every image-maker will be in the Fire, and every image that he made will be made to appear to him and will torment him in Hell.” Ibn ‘Abbaas said: “If you must do that, then make trees and things that have no soul.” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari and Muslim). The general meaning of the ahaadeeth is that it is absolutely forbidden to make images of anything that has a soul. Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa’imah, 1/456-457 Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen said, when he was asked about pictures: making pictures for this purpose is haraam and is not permitted. That is because making pictures for memories is haraam, because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, “The angels do not enter any house in which there is an image,” (narrated by al-Bukhaari, Bid’ al-Khalq, 2986), and whatever the angels do not enter had no goodness in it. Fataawa Manaar al-Islam, 3/759 Islam Q&A Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid (www.islam-qa.com) |
| Re: Taking Photograph for Memories |
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| muslimah853 |
| 01/10/03 at 16:43:15 |
| [slm] As far as I know, on this issue there is legitimate difference of opinion. There are scholars who allow photography on the grounds that it is not like paintings in the sense that it only captures an image which is there as opposed to drawing, painting, or sculpting it. Other scholars forbid it regardless. In any case, as with any other issues of legitimate difference of opinion, both are acceptable. No one can be censured for following one or the other view. Sparrow, to answer your question, the answer, as far as I know, is no. The problem with paintings isn't so much the hanging of them, it is the making of them in the first place. Islamic scholars agree that the painting of animate objects is not allowed, whether one hangs them or not, but with the advent of photography, there has been two opinions on this particular phenomenon. Paintings are still out. Of course, nothing wrong with hanging pictures of flowers :) |
| Re: Taking Photograph for Memories |
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| sofia |
| 01/10/03 at 16:49:26 |
| "Creating" (by drawing, painting, sculpting, etc) an image of an animate object (something which has a soul, like a person or animal) is forbidden in Islaam, according to the majority of scholars, if not all of them. That's one of the reasons Islaamic art deals more with geometric shapes and intricate designs - focusing more on symmetry/balance - than with pictures of humans/animals (for the most part). Pictures of what one may perceive as God is somewhat of an even greater trespass. As humans, we do not know the shape/image of God. Without getting into the question of "do people who draw really think they are 'creating' what God created and/or do they really worship it?" or even the content of what's drawn - the point is that when God has forbidden something, there is wisdom behind it. One small example. The perceived image of Jesus, peace be upon him. For many Muslims, the depiction of Jesus as being white, brown, black, etc in various parts of the world, is a non-issue, but also quite offensive. It doesn't matter what he (or any other Prophets) looked like. It's also proven the point that sometimes we focus too much on the Messenger, and not the basic message. In Islaam, we don't worship the Messengers/Prophets. Only the One, True God. Invariably, the creation of that image ends up being worshipped (major sin in Islaam). Anyhow, there's even more difference of opinion when it comes to whether or not photographs of animate objects falls into "image making." Some think it's ok. Others, do not. Main point is that both sides have their proofs, and the scholars have looked at more evidence than we have. [As mentioned, to be on the safe side, it's suggested to put photographs of animate objects in albums, and not on display (and definitely not to have for "glorification" purposes, at any level), and/or suggest only taking pictures of/drawing inanimate objects.] And, yes, this poses a whole host of other questions like, what about video/digital imaging, etc.? Some of the scholars have dealt with/continue to deal with these issues. Again, they're looking at more evidence than you or I before they claim that something is allowed or not. You won't find the final answer on photographs here on this board. Allahu'Alim, best to consult with the scholars on these fiqh-type issues. Here are some related links: Excerpts from Qaradawi's, "The Lawful and the Prohibited." This is from the chapter of "The Home." Keep scrolling down for comments on statues, paintings, pictures, etc. http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Books/Q_LP/ch2s3pre.htm#Islam%20Prohibits%20Statues A discussion on the topic of "tasweer" on Muhammad AlShareef's message board http://forums.delphiforums.com/khutbah/messages/?msg=1344.1 |
| 01/10/03 at 18:23:32 |
| sofia |
| Re: Taking Photograph for Memories |
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| ltcorpest2 |
| 01/10/03 at 19:19:01 |
| so, would one who believes that pictures are wrong also believe that it would be wrong to view either television or movies? especially the new movies such as star wars and the two towers where images of animate objects are created digitally? Creating" (by drawing, painting, sculpting, etc) an image of an animate object (something which has a soul, like a person or animal) is forbidden in Islaam, according to the majority of scholars, if not all of them. would that make all cartoons haraam? (this is weird i am starting to know some of the Islamic lingo) |
| Re: Taking Photograph for Memories |
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| ltcorpest2 |
| 01/10/03 at 20:09:36 |
| one more thing. can anyone give the verses in the quran that mentions this so I could read it for myself? Is the teaching this strictly from the quran or does it come from other sources also? |
| Re: Taking Photograph for Memories |
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| Fatimah |
| 01/10/03 at 20:33:03 |
| salam alaikum, just to repeat, there are differences of opinion about these things. :) -------------------------------------------------------- Question: What is the shar’i ruling on video tapes on which there are (pictures of) animals, for teaching children? Answer: Praise be to Allaah. There is nothing wrong with that, this will keep them from watching bad things. From the fatwas of Shaykh Muhammad ibn Saalih al-‘Uthaymeen, Majallat al-Da’wah, issue no. 1823, p. 54. (www.islam-qa.com) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Question: I have a question regarding pictures -Are pictures that are manafactured through means such as video, computers etc. (i.e. they come on and off the screen)permissable? Can you please verify this with proof and evidence? Answer: Praise be to Allaah. The ruling on a thing depends on the way in which it is perceived. It is essential to know how the picture-making you refer to is done. The author of Risaalat Ahkaam al-Tasweer (The ruling on picture-making) said: 1. Movie pictures or pictures on a cinema film: This is a method which transmits moving pictures with sound for a limited time span, showing all the events that happened within this time frame. The picture which is shown by the film on the screen is the shadow or reflection of that thing, not its real essence, after it has been recorded on the film. It says in al-Sharee’ah al-Islamiyyah wa’l-Funoon (Islamic sharee’ah and the Arts) that the cinema is called [in Arabic] akhyaliyyah [from khayaal, meaning shadow or dim reflection], “because it shows the shadows of things, not their real essence.” 2 – TV pictures This is a method which transmits pictures and sounds at the same time via an electrical impulse. This is the result of the effect of light from the object whose picture is being taken being reflected on a mica sheet which is covered with a vast number of tiny particles made of photosensitive material, manufactured from silver oxide and caesium, of which the particles are separated from one another and isolated electrically. This kind of image-making using machines is very similar to the image on a movie film, but in TV pictures, the images are changed to electronic signals, then to electromagnetic waves, which are then either sent via antennas to be picked up by the receiving apparatus in TV sets, within the range that the signal can reach, or they are sent to be stored in the form of magnetic changes on plastic tapes that have been plated with the appropriate magnetic substance that can store these waves. In order to show what has been recorded on these tapes after these waves have been stored, it has to pass through a machine which transforms it once more into electronic signals then sends it to a screen in the form of electrical signals, so that it appears as a picture, but only after a complex operation. The TV set is the equipment which receives the electrical waves and gathers them, then transmits them in a regulated manner in the form of a picture with complete features. There is another kind which is considered to be similar to this kind of image-making. This is something similar to the telephone which is used in some industrially-advanced countries, which transmits both the voice and the image of the speaker, so both parties can see one another on the screen of the device on which they are talking. Similarly, there are cameras which are installed at the doors of houses. This system picks up the voice and image of the person who is coming to the house and transmits it to a screen inside the house, so that whoever is inside the house can see it clearly. And similarly there is equipment which is used to watch out for criminals stealing and so on in banks, stores, etc. These kinds of equipment are considered to be of one kind, but are used for a variety of purposes, whereby the camera covers the area which is to be watched over, and it transmits the images to a screen like a TV, where the image appears clearly. New things are appearing all the time, and we do not know what will appear in the future. If this indicates anything, it indicates the mind-boggling expansion of the use of machines to make images of both kinds, both still and moving, in many areas, including manufacturing, war, security, education, medicine, social, etc. Ahkaam al-Tasweer by Ahmad ibn ‘Ali Waasil, p. 65-67 Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen said: With regard to pictures made in the modern fashion, they fall into two categories: The first category is those which have no tangible substance (and can only be seen by running them through a machine), as I was told is the case with pictures on video tapes. There is no ruling at all concerning these, and they do not come under the prohibition at all. Hence the scholars who forbid making pictures with cameras on paper (photographs) permitted this (video pictures), and said that there is nothing wrong with this. Then it was asked, is it permissible to film lectures which are given in the mosques? The (scholarly) view was that it is better not to do that, because it may disturb the worshippers and because they may film things that may not be appropriate, and so on. The second category is fixed or still pictures on paper (photographs) … But the matter needs further discussion if one wants to make these kind of permissible pictures. For they are subject to five rulings which depend on the intention. If the intention is something forbidden, then it is haraam. If he intends something waajib (obligatory), then it is waajib. Sometimes pictures may be essential, especially moving pictures. For example, if we see someone in the act of committing a crime against a person’s rights, such as an attempt to kill and so on, and we cannot prove it in any way but by taking pictures, then in this case taking pictures becomes waajib, especially in cases where pictures may decide the case. The means are subject to the rulings on the ends. If we make these pictures in order to prove the identity of a person for fear that someone else may be accused of the crime, this is also acceptable, indeed it is essential. But if we take these pictures just to enjoy looking at them, this is undoubtedly haraam... And Allaah knows best.” (See Al-Sharh al-Mumti’, 2/197-199) Islam Q&A Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid (www.islam-qa.com) |
| Re: Taking Photograph for Memories |
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| se7en |
| 01/11/03 at 02:03:08 |
| as salaamu alaykum wa rahmatAllah, [quote]Firstly I like to say is that I"m shocked that the administrators said their Imaam said it's not haraam. It is surprising to know someone with the title of an Imaam would consider it not haraam when there's lots of literature, and authentic hadeeth out there clearly stating other wise. With that in mind, here's the answer from real Scholars. [/quote] *deep breath* With due respect to you sis/bro Caveat, I feel compelled to respond to some things you've said in your post. First of all, in response to the specific issue of photograpy, yes there are indeed many authentic texts that talk about the prohibition of creating animate objects. The vast majority of the early scholars did not extend this prohibition to include pictures of inanimate objects, as is mentioned in the quote by Ibn Abbass included in the fatwa you posted. Also, there's a text that mentions that in the famous incident in which Rasulullah [saw] tore down curtains that depicted animate objects -- that this fabric was later made into pillows used in a lowly manner. Thus it is a minority opinion among scholars that such depictions are permissible *if* they are treated in a lowly fashion, i.e., on carpets and so forth. As well, photography was not in existence at the time of Rasulullah [saw], and is in it's processing and technology different than 'making' pictures or statues. Anyway, I do not mean to get into a debate with you about the issue of *photography*, about which is the the stronger opinion or backed by more textual evidence.. but simply to note that there are many different *legitimate* opinions on the issue, *based* on the authentic texts and ijtihaad. Simply because a scholar holds an opinion different than the one you are familar with does not make it illegitimate or incorrect. I strongly urge you to take it upon yourself to learn more about the adaab of al ikhtilaaf. In matters that are not related to usul but instead are related to the furoo' wal juziyaat there is room for differences of opinion, many of which are in the fold of the sharh' and acceptable. Differences of opinion occur for a number of reasons.. the actual language of the matn may be open to more than one intepretation.. there may be differences of opinion on the authoritativeness of the text.. there may be differences in the usul al fiqh, etc. I doubt very much that you will find *any* scholar questioning how "real an imam is" simply because they differ in an opinion on a matter in which there is room for ikhtilaaf. This is exactly the reason why issues like this should not be discussed on the message board. It's very easy to bring forth a fatwa that goes along with what you believe to be true; but quite another matter altogether to understand it's place alongside differing opinions. w'Allahu a'lam. wasalaamu alaykum wa rahmatAllah. |
| 01/11/03 at 02:13:54 |
| se7en |
| Re: Taking Photograph for Memories |
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| jannah |
| 01/11/03 at 02:08:19 |
| Well said se7en... Sorry ltcorpest.. see what happens when Muslims start trading fatwas :P hmm well my imam has a black belt so my imam can beat up your imam !! j/k... a jowk... halal jowk... if you don't get it just hit next... This thread is now closed. |
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