A R C H I V E S
Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board
| Egypt Makes Christmas a National Holiday |
|---|
| Halima |
| 01/07/03 at 01:36:48 |
| Egypt Makes Christmas a National Holiday Associated Press Cairo, Jan. 6--(AP) A presidential decree making Christmas - which falls on Tuesday on Egypt's Coptic Christian calendar - a national holiday is focusing attention on relations between Christians and Muslims in this overwhelmingly Islamic country. It is the first time a Christian holiday has been officially recognized in modern Egypt. In the past, only Copts, as Egyptian Christians are known, got Christmas off, while the rest of Egypt worked as usual. Several Islamic holidays have long been national holidays.Reaction by some Muslims illustrates the sometimes uneasy relationship between the two faiths, according to Copts who say their identity as Egyptians and their contributions are not adequately recognized. A statement posted on Islammemo, a Web site devoted to conservative Islamic comment, said President Hosni Mubarak made Christmas a holiday because of U.S. pressure to prove Egypt was democratic and respected minorities' rights. The Muslim Brotherhood expressed surprise that the whole country was given the day off when, according to prominent Brotherhood member Essam el-Erian, only students had complained about occasionally having to take exams on Christmas. "It is so strange that the regime is giving the people one more day off, while most government employees are not hard workers," Erian said. Christmas became Egypt's 18th national holiday. Copts have a long history in Egypt - tradition says St. Mark brought Christianity to Egypt just a few years after the death of Christ. Copts were once so dominant here that their name is the ancient name for all Egyptians. Now they are estimated at just 10 percent of Egypt's 68 million people. Copts survived Roman persecution and Arab conquest, and today are generally free to worship in Egypt. But they complain of tensions with the Muslim majority and say they face discrimination, particularly in the job market. At times, they face violence. During an Islamic insurrection in Egypt in the early 1990s, Copts were occasionally attacked by Muslim militants. In 2000, the deadliest Christian-Muslim clashes in years killed 23 people, all but two of them Copts, touched off by an argument between a Coptic merchant and a Muslim shopper in the southern village of el-Kusheh. Last year, 11 people were injured and 50 were arrested after brawls broke out in a southern village after an argument over whether a church's bells tolled too loudly. Human rights groups and the U.S. State Department have noted the lack of attention paid to Coptic history in Egypt's schools, the scant number of Copts in high government posts and scattered reports of forced conversion to Islam and attacks on Copts by Muslim militants. But they say there is little evidence of systematic government discrimination or widespread hatred of Copts among Muslims. While marking Christmas is perhaps the most dramatic move, it is not the first time Mubarak has addressed the concerns of Copts. Last year, Mubarak made it easier for Copts to renovate churches by allowing his aides to grant permission for the work. In the past, only the president could grant such permission, creating long delays. For the last two years, state television has broadcast Coptic Christmas and Easter services. Still, Milad Hana, a Coptic writer, said such steps "do not touch the core Copt demands," including teaching more Coptic history in state schools. Two years ago, an independent think tank run by human rights activist Saad Eddin Ibrahim developed new material on Coptic history for schools, but Coptic Bishop Pisenti said "very few chapters were added to the curricula." Ibrahim's outspokenness about Copts was cited when he was convicted last year of tarnishing Egypt's image, reflecting sensitivity about charges Copts are treated unfairly. Copts also demand more political representation. Copts won three of 454 seats in parliament during 2000 elections and a fourth was appointed by Mubarak. Politicians argue they can do little if voters won't elect Copts, but Hana said Mubarak could appoint more Copts to executive positions. Nabil Abdel Fatah, a Muslim who edits an independent review of religious affairs, said the government is working on behalf of Copts. He cited "a step-by-step policy, begun first by giving space to Coptic writers in opinion pages in semi-governmental newspapers, assigning Coptic figures to ministerial positions, and finally with the national holiday." |
| Re: Egypt Makes Christmas a National Holiday |
|---|
| panjul |
| 01/07/03 at 23:33:01 |
| [slm] It's high time they made Christmas a national holiday. Pakistan had made it a holiday long ago. The rest of the Islamic world should make it a natianol holiday too. I wonder if Indian had Eid off? and how many days? |
| Re: Egypt Makes Christmas a National Holiday |
|---|
| Halima |
| 01/08/03 at 01:30:14 |
| I live in a country where the majority are Christians. Yet the the Islamic holidays are honoured and respected. Eid-Ul-Fitr and Eid-El-Adha are national holidays here. On national events, both religions are represented and even in our parliament. I worked in Somalia which is a predominantly Muslim country before Siad Barre was toppled in 1991. Christmas was a national holiday. Halima |
| Re: Egypt Makes Christmas a National Holiday |
|---|
| Kashif |
| 01/08/03 at 04:44:19 |
| assalaamu alaikum Christmas should be made a national holiday in the Islamic World? Are you including Makkah & Medina in that too? Kashif Wa Salaam |
| NS |
| Re: Egypt Makes Christmas a National Holiday |
|---|
| jaihoon |
| 01/08/03 at 05:13:47 |
| [quote author=panjul link=board=ummah;num=1041921408;start=0#1 date=01/07/03 at 23:33:01] [slm] I wonder if Indian had Eid off? and how many days?[/quote] India has holidays on both Eids. And from the state from where I hail from, even milad Nabi is a holiday. In government departments, Ramadan is given special preference for Muslims. For eid al fitr, its definitely more than a singl day. India is a secular country. If some forces are trying to make it look otherwise, that does not change the entire nation. There is hardly any significant budhist population in india. Yet you will see the The CHAKRA (wheel) in the centre of Indian flag is taken from one of the Asokan Pillars (who converted to Budhsm). In todays situation, India is as much 'Islamic' as any other Muslim countries. At least, Islam is not becoming a 'stranger' in India (as mentioned in hadith) as it presently is in its own land. Personally, i dont see anything wrong in christmas being made a public holiday in Egypt, where there are plenty of christians. As such, it was only recently that a minister in Bahrain attended the mass ceremony of Christmas at a church in Bahrain. We should be glad that Muslim leadership is becoming increasingly *liberal* towards non-Muslims :( |
| Re: Egypt Makes Christmas a National Holiday |
|---|
| M.F. |
| 01/08/03 at 05:43:10 |
| [slm] In Morocco they barely notice Christmas. I get it off cause I work in a binational office, but if it weren't for TV and the few scary men with Santa masks (yes, masks) on the sidewalks no one would know it was christmas, which is just as well for me, there's enough horrible stuff going on on New Year's eve, including gifts, parties, going to clubs, getting drunk etc :( |
| Re: Egypt Makes Christmas a National Holiday |
|---|
| Asim |
| 01/08/03 at 08:15:54 |
| Assalaamu alaikum, [quote]Pakistan had made it a holiday long ago. [/quote] It is Quaidi Azam day on 12/25, not christmas, to mark the birthday of M. A. Jinnah. Wasalaam. |
| Re: Egypt Makes Christmas a National Holiday |
|---|
| panjul |
| 01/09/03 at 22:57:09 |
| [wlm] Are you including Makkah & Medina in that too? No of course not. lol. :D is that true asim? they have 2 days off for chirstman. i thought that it was becuase of christmas! |
| 01/10/03 at 16:07:05 |
| panjul |
| Re: Egypt Makes Christmas a National Holiday |
|---|
| tq |
| 01/10/03 at 08:13:51 |
| Assalamo elikuim Yes Dec 25 is Quaid's birthday . But as far as I remeber there used to be some TV programmes about christmas also on PTV besides QuaideAzam's . They now have two days off ? what days 25 & 26 or 24 & 25 ? Wasalam tq |
| Re: Egypt Makes Christmas a National Holiday |
|---|
| Sabr |
| 01/10/03 at 13:54:27 |
| [slm] As I read the post I remembered the following hadith with saddness :' (Volume 9, Book 92, Number 422: Narrated Abu Sa'id Al-Khudri: The Prophet [saw] said, "You will follow the ways of those nations who were before you, span by span and cubit by cubit (i.e., inch by inch) so much so that even if they entered a hole of a mastigure, you would follow them." We said, "O Allah's Apostle! (Do you mean) the Jews and the Christians?" He said, "Whom else?" May Allah save us from Shirk and biddah and help us always to adhere to quran and sunnah . Ameen [wlm] |
| Re: Egypt Makes Christmas a National Holiday |
|---|
| panjul |
| 01/10/03 at 16:08:13 |
| [slm] As i see it, we have no right to ask non muslim to give us days off or officially recognize our holidays, if we dont recognize their important holidays. |
| Re: Egypt Makes Christmas a National Holiday |
|---|
| BroHanif |
| 01/11/03 at 09:14:34 |
| [quote]As i see it, we have no right to ask non muslim to give us days off or officially recognize our holidays, if we dont recognize their important holidays. [/quote] What is a definition of thier holiday ??? If its christmas then in the UK I didnt see many people celebrating it in the churches, heck manyof the broadsheet papers and local papers did not even utter a single word of complaint against the continued occupation of the so called birth place of Isa Alayhis Salaam peace be upon him. Christmas has been more of a marketing campaign than anything else. In my view many of them don't even know why they are celebrating, sheep following sheep comes to mind. |
| NS |
| Re: Egypt Makes Christmas a National Holiday |
|---|
| Sparrow |
| 01/11/03 at 10:00:42 |
| [quote author=BroHanif link=board=ummah;num=1041921408;start=0#11 date=01/11/03 at 09:14:34] What is a definition of thier holiday ??? If its christmas then in the UK I didnt see many people celebrating it in the churches, heck manyof the broadsheet papers and local papers did not even utter a single word of complaint against the continued occupation of the so called birth place of Isa Alayhis Salaam peace be upon him. Christmas has been more of a marketing campaign than anything else. In my view many of them don't even know why they are celebrating, sheep following sheep comes to mind. [/quote] I think this is really offensive. Please don't presume to know that we "don't know why" we are celebrating Christmas simply because you don't see us celebrating it the way you deem appropriate. How do you know who goes to church and who doesn't? Who are you to judge how people worship, celebrate or think about Christmas? It would be nice if people gave the same respect to other religions that they demand for their own. Sparrow |
| NS |
| Re: Egypt Makes Christmas a National Holiday |
|---|
| BroHanif |
| 01/11/03 at 10:50:51 |
| [quote]Who are you to judge how people worship, celebrate or think about Christmas[/quote] Err so what is celebrating at xmas...??? . What is the history of celebrating xmas? Is there no link to Palestine ? Please do enlighten us. At work I asked the religious question on Xmas, nobody really knew the answer but were happy to receive xmas cards and buy gifts for their loved ones. Some of the guys said themselves that it don't make sense all this buying and receiving, yet they don't want to upset the aple cart, carry on with the same tradition that their parents did, but have no idea to why they are doing it. And also read my post again it says how can one celebrate xmas when the land is occupied and is under threat. Can one celebrate xmas but don't give a damn about the so called birth place of Isa A.S ?. For me in the UK I was dissapointed that the churces didn't get together to condem the occupied stance, why the continue silence ?. Why do we have tanks rolling about in Bethleham and upto 500,000 people are under occupation, few people ventured out for xmas mass because of the fear of the terrorist organisation there. And what do we have in the UK nobody hardly uttering a single word against this action, in fact there are some Christian Fundamentalist who approve of this method of the occupying force. |
| NS |
| Re: Egypt Makes Christmas a National Holiday |
|---|
| amatullah |
| 01/11/03 at 12:27:26 |
| Not sure how i feel about this...Ofcourse it is good to be respectful. But I don't think x-mas should be a national holiday in Muslim countries. I think if we look more in the long term it will be problematic not to have a holiday for anyone who consider theirs a religion even if it is something outside of the people of the book. Then it might become a big issue internationally meanwhile we cannot possibly acoomodate that. I mean here they do reconize our holidays but not just us or judiasim. Anyone can have a religious holiday recognized and can ask for a day off and to demand a certain amount of celebration by gov. Besides how come being respectful or considerate mostly translates into the celebrating. What does celebrating intails? what if we are against that? Wouldn't it be better to show by actions a certain mercy etc. I mean I think from experience the north american and european whites have a great time in the guld and south east asia, they are paid better and many people have this inferiority complex as a result of the colonization and they think they must have foreign expertise which the locals don't or didn't get properly if htey did study outside. Not even just that. I think in history, their churches and synagogues still stand today on Muslim land not touched. I think that shows our respect for their religion more than anything. In fact, i read yesterday a Muslim stopped someone from torching a syngogue in the US as well. I think it is commonly acknowledged not being rude or judgemental but even the neighbours they say it x-mas is a big commercial thing and the christ is out of christmas now. I asked how it came about and about the date of christmas and they weren't sure, it was just a nice reason to be together as a family and give gifts and show your love. Yet they drank and faught alot from the sounds of it. hmmm i read the highest suicide rate here is in x-mas time. I don't know if it is the financial overburdoning or if it is that people do feel something is wrong. Just thinking outloud... |
| Re: Egypt Makes Christmas a National Holiday |
|---|
| Sparrow |
| 01/11/03 at 13:51:16 |
| [quote author=BroHanif link=board=ummah;num=1041921408;start=0#13 date=01/11/03 at 10:50:51] Err so what is celebrating at xmas...??? . What is the history of celebrating xmas? Is there no link to Palestine ? Please do enlighten us. I'm not sure what the challenge is here although there seems to be some sort of assumption that I don't know anything about Xmas. Sorry to disappoint you there. Would you like me to present a discussion on the historical aspects? Pagan and/or Mesopotamian influences? Perhaps I could start a new thread, "18th Century Xmas," I've done a lot of reading on that. What is your comment about the link to Palestine in regard to? I looked at my original post and couldn't find the part where I stated or implied that there was no link to Palestine. At work I asked the religious question on Xmas, nobody really knew the answer but were happy to receive xmas cards and buy gifts for their loved ones. Some of the guys said themselves that it don't make sense all this buying and receiving, yet they don't want to upset the aple cart, carry on with the same tradition that their parents did, but have no idea to why they are doing it. Did you ask these questions of your co-workers because you were genuinely curious or because you wanted to confirm opinions you already held about Xmas? In my experience it's kind of hard to hear what people are saying clearly when I'm listening for only those things that confirm my own preconceived notions. But hey, maybe you really wanted to know. In that case I'll assume that your co-workers have been living under rocks for most of their lives because I don't know a single Christian who doesn't know the historical aspects of Xmas. You're right here though, it's kind of silly to do anything you don't want to just out of habit. Hmmmm, kind of reminds me of the time I asked a musliml friend about an apect of Islamic celebration and got the answer: "We've always done it that way, that's why." Perhaps there are sheep in *every* religion? And also read my post again it says how can one celebrate xmas when the land is occupied and is under threat. Can one celebrate xmas but don't give a damn about the so called birth place of Isa A.S ? For me in the UK I was dissapointed that the churces didn't get together to condem the occupied stance, why the continue silence ? Why do we have tanks rolling about in Bethleham and upto 500,000 people are under occupation, few people ventured out for xmas mass because of the fear of the terrorist organisation there. And what do we have in the UK nobody hardly uttering a single word against this action, in fact there are some Christian Fundamentalist who approve of this method of the occupying force. [/quote] Could it be because the people who care care year round and those who don't never will? What kind of hypocrite only cares once a year? I'm against the occupation of Palestine all the time, and don't feel the need to bolster my efforts in December. In my own meager way I do what I can to end the occupation (letters to the editor that sort of thing) year round, yet by your logic because I am not in front of the White House with a protest sign around Xmastime I and others like me are "sheep" who don't know a thing about Christmas. And Christian Fundamentalists have been siding with Israel for years. It shouldn't be a surprise that they continue to do so at Christmas. I'd be curious to know if you were this concerned about Jesus' birthplace when Palestinians were occupying the Church of the Nativity. Sparrow |
| NS |
| Re: Egypt Makes Christmas a National Holiday |
|---|
| Sparrow |
| 01/11/03 at 13:54:39 |
| Hi all, Just wanted to mention that I messed up the quotes thing in my earlier post (big shock there) and some of my responses to BRo Hanif are attributed to him in the quoted sections. Just didn't want any misconceptions as to who said what. Peace, Sparrow |
| Re: Egypt Makes Christmas a National Holiday |
|---|
| BroHanif |
| 01/11/03 at 16:28:13 |
| Sparrow, Again you have failed to answer my question, before we get too personal my post was on why there is a major silence on the current situation with regards to Palestine. I'm merely seeking answers, perhaps probing ones brain, I'm not here to question, Christianity, Judaism or Islaam. All three religions have a linkage to Hazrat Isa A.S.. Now at Xmas time I see many cards with the image of a young baby in a barn, in a cradle surrounded by his so called guardians and well wishers. Tell me where is this place ? Is it now in Washington D.C. or Oxford St in London ? If it is in Palestine then dosen't it make you think that if a certain belief is attributed to a particular religion surely they must voice their concerns about what is happening especially when many Christians around the world are not going to Palestine to practice xmas mass ?. Thats why I said that many in the UK bid each other merry xmas yet, surely its not a very merry xmas when the so called birth place of Christ in under occupation. Or have I got it wrong where the term 'merry xams' means that one would enjoy the celebration and all its fetivities yet obsolving the Christian linkage to xmas ?. [quote]I'd be curious to know if you were this concerned about Jesus' birthplace when Palestinians were occupying the Church of the Nativity. [/quote] Yep I was concered, just in case the terrorist forces managed to fire a tank shell into the church killing my Christian and Muslim brothers and sisters. |
| NS |
| Re: Egypt Makes Christmas a National Holiday |
|---|
| Dude |
| 01/11/03 at 16:44:16 |
| The moderator should consider merging this thread with this one: http://www.jannah.org/cgi-bin/madina/YaBB.pl?board=lighthouse;action=display;num=1038995719;start=15 Hanif, I think the point Sparrow is trying to make is that you’re being a hypocrate in showing such blatant disrespect for others’ religions, beliefs, holidays, and traditions. I’m sure I’m correct in assuming that you hope your fellow workmates and non-Muslim friends show you the same respect during Ramadan and at Eid, so why is this respect not returned? Why is there such hostility towards what is, like Eid, a wonderful religious holiday that (for the vast majority) brings people together and encourages people to give to others, and spend time self-reflecting on what they can do to be less selfish? What’s the problem? I don’t resent that fact that perhaps Christmas time and Eid remind people that they should be giving to the less fortunate- either Christmas hampers, food banks, orphanages, charities…whatever. Yes, people should be conscious of the need to give year round, but nobody is perfect. Nothing wrong with a little reminder every year to thank God for how lucky you are, and to remind you that you should be sharing your wealth with the needy. |
| Re: Egypt Makes Christmas a National Holiday |
|---|
| BroHanif |
| 01/11/03 at 20:36:59 |
| Salaams, [quote]I think the point Sparrow is trying to make is that you’re being a hypocrate in showing such blatant disrespect for others’ religions, beliefs, holidays, and traditions. [/quote] If its being disrepectful to merely challenge people on the silence of the continued occupation of the holy land then yes I am disrespectful. For too long we have been silent and if my post causes disrespect, then do think for one second what I have said in my previous posts. How do you think the Muslims would feel if an illegal entity occupied Macca and Medina, do you hink we could celebrate Eid-Ul-Fitr and Eid Ul Adha ?. As a Muslim it is my duty to defend all the prophets, whether that be Musa A.S., Isa A.S. or Haroon A.S. Recently the BBC aired a programme to raise a debate that whether or not the Virgin Mary was either raped by a roman soldier, or had a relationship with someone that bore Hazrat Isa A.S., to me it spoke that this is another attempt to discredit a prophet of Allah. Again the time is coming that when people of faiths and understanding be they Muslims, Christians or Jews will have to defend the prophets of Allah. Even after posting my comments you still think that I am disrespectful then I'm sorry you've lost the plot, this thread is going nowhere and its best to shut it. |
| NS |
| Re: Egypt Makes Christmas a National Holiday |
|---|
| Dude |
| 01/14/03 at 12:07:58 |
| Fair enough. I don’t think people are missing the point- you’re on a mission to bring attention to the issues, which is great. Having said that, you’re missing an important point as well: you’ve shown blatant disrespect for others’ religions, beliefs, holidays, and traditions (to repeat myself). There are as many Muslims out there whom aren’t on the same campaign as you…are you going to criticize their rights to celebrate Eid? I don’t see you giving equal criticisms for Muslims for turning a blind eye towards a tense Christmas in Bethlehem. You’re coming across as very anti-Christian, and more than a little biased. Just like it is wrong for non-Muslims to paint all Muslims with the same brush (extremists), it is equally wrong for Muslims to paint all Christians with the same brush (fanatical). Give your head a shake. Again, I think your intentions are sound, but you've taken a decidedly anti-Christian stance, where it may be more appropriate to take an anti-extremist or anti-violence stance...regardless of religion. |
| Re: Egypt Makes Christmas a National Holiday |
|---|
| zomorrud |
| 01/14/03 at 14:12:11 |
| [color=blue]bismillah.. assalamu alaikum/ peace Bro Hanif wrote: [quote]At work I asked the religious question on Xmas, nobody really knew the answer but were happy to receive xmas cards and buy gifts for their loved ones. Some of the guys said themselves that it don't make sense all this buying and receiving, yet they don't want to upset the aple cart, carry on with the same tradition that their parents did, but have no idea to why they are doing it. [/quote] Then Sparrow wrote: [quote]But hey, maybe you really wanted to know. In that case I'll assume that your co-workers have been living under rocks for most of their lives because I don't know a single Christian who doesn't know the historical aspects of Xmas. [/quote] I am lost here. Where in the first quote was it clarified what the question was and how did it end up being assumed to be about "..the historical aspects of Xmas." Maybe Sparrow can enlighten us on the historical aspects anyway. What most muslims find confusing is the date of christmas not being the actual birth date of Jesus, peace be upon him. But, please feel free to dispel misconceptions. [quote]You're right here though, it's kind of silly to do anything you don't want to just out of habit. Hmmmm, kind of reminds me of the time I asked a musliml friend about an apect of Islamic celebration and got the answer: "We've always done it that way, that's why." Perhaps there are sheep in *every* religion? [/quote] I agree here. There are many muslims who are ignorant of many aspects of their religion and Islam's history. You won't find Bro Hanif or others denying that. So, let's not go into a tit-for-tat here. [quote]I'd be curious to know if you were this concerned about Jesus' birthplace when Palestinians were occupying the Church of the Nativity. [/quote] Interesting choice of words. What and who made you think that they were occupying the church rather than taking refuge in there? It all depends on your perspective. Why not try to see it from their angle, rather than the way western media tries to spin it up? By the way Dude, there is no general hostility towards christmas celebrations among muslims. There is a christian population in many middle eastern countries (Iraq, Palestine, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan & Egypt] and they continue to live peacefully side by side with muslims each having the freedom to observe their holidays. What muslims don't like is to be taken for granted. Your reference to another thread (Merry Christmas in the Bebsi folder), is just confusing things here. But to try to make you understand what muslims feel when someone wishes them "Merry Christmas" when it is obvious that that they are not Christian, imagine the following. Imagine that you are living in Egypt for example. It should be obvious to everyone from there that you are not Arab (and further on not muslim). Besides, everyone in your workplace knows that you are not muslim. (You mentioned before that you're Canadian from an Irish descent). Now, what be your response if someone wished you "Eid Mubarak" , assuming that you'd know what that means? You probably would thank the person who said it, but explain that you don't celebrate Eid. Deep down, wouldn't you be wondering what made that person think that you celebrated Eid, given your obvious Canadianness?? Wouldn't you be bothered by that person's assumption that everyone must be like him/her? However, the real point of this thread is the discussion of minorities having their holidays made official public holidays. take care wassalamu alaikum [/color] |
| 01/14/03 at 17:24:45 |
| zomorrud |
| Re: Egypt Makes Christmas a National Holiday |
|---|
| ltcorpest2 |
| 01/14/03 at 19:09:31 |
| hey Zomorrud, I like your posts, always insightful. I have never been to Egypt or any other muslim country , but if I did and was there for any holiday and someone said Eid Mubarak or anything of that nature (It is kind of confusing with the Bebzi stand topic) I do not think that it would be right to say that I do not celebrate your holiday. I know that I would give the greeting back, it seems to make common sence. And Hanif you are right, many people have no idea what the holiday is anymore, I do not know if any of you would ever watch Charles Dickens' "A Christmas Carol" but his writing of the book was for that cause. It was a holiday that had lost its importance and meaning. . If its being disrepectful to merely challenge people on the silence of the continued occupation of the holy land then yes I am disrespectful. For too long we have been silent and if my post causes disrespect, then do think for one second what I have said in my previous posts. How do you think the Muslims would feel if an illegal entity occupied Macca and Medina, do you hink we could celebrate Eid-Ul-Fitr and Eid Ul Adha ?. Hanif, are we talking about the recent incursions by Israel or the whole state of Israel? And I am glad you posted this Because it was a question I have been contemplating for a while. While, God forbid nothing happnes to anyones holy sites, Would that affect your belief or ability to follow God. What if Mecca was nuked or Bethlehem or Jerusalem or Rome or the Ganges (my aplogies to those to those whose holy sites I have left out, and not that I believe that all these places are by themselves holy)? My thought is that God is holy alone and not a physical site and it would have a limited affect on how I would practice my faith. It would be very sad if anything like that would occur, but it would not take away who God is which is ultimately the only thing that counts. |
| Re: Egypt Makes Christmas a National Holiday |
|---|
| panjul |
| 01/14/03 at 22:19:38 |
| [slm] If Makkah and Madina were ever bombed (God forbid), it would not affect my faith. But places of worship are important, by bombing places of worship ur saying to the world, I want to destroy you. Places of worship *represent* you. Well, no one wants to be destroyed or have the properties destroyed and so they defend themselves. Defense is a basic human right. If something like that were to happen, (God forbid), I don't think i could sit by and watch......I would take revenge, somehow or another. |
| Re: Egypt Makes Christmas a National Holiday |
|---|
| siddiqui |
| 01/15/03 at 10:50:25 |
| [slm] In all this melee I was just wondering if Egypt was ever an Islamic/Muslim country and we here are arguing about the rights and wrongs of its having a national holiday for christmas [wlm] |
| Re: Egypt Makes Christmas a National Holiday |
|---|
| Dude |
| 01/15/03 at 12:27:00 |
| Zomorrud, When somebody says “Merry Christmas”, it is generally meant as a well wish. Typically, a person’s first thought isn’t to assume somebody is Christian, and offer them a greeting towards their “religious” holiday, it is with the intent to wish good fortune on somebody. It’s like saying, “I hope things are going well for you”. Of course I’d return the greeting…personally, I wouldn’t stop them to say I don’t celebrate the holiday. When somebody gives you a greeting like this, it may be because they generally hope good things for you…not necessarily to imply they think you should be a believer in the Bible. Whenever somebody says Eid Mubarak to me, I respond in kind. If I were living in a Jewish country, I know I would respond in kind to “happy Hanukah”, too. In fact, my sister (who is a Baptist) makes the effort to phone my in-laws and kids every Eid to wish them Eid Mubarak. In turn, my in-laws send her a Christmas card. It’s about mutual respect. So, I guess I don’t get it. I don’t understand how somebody can take any sincere well wish like “Merry Christmas” or “Eid Mubarak” as insulting. The “A Christmas Carol” analogy is a great example. Christmas has evolved to have more meaning to more people than the original religious intent. |
| Re: Egypt Makes Christmas a National Holiday |
|---|
| bhaloo |
| 01/15/03 at 23:44:28 |
| [slm] [quote author=Dude link=board=ummah;num=1041921408;start=15#25 date=01/15/03 at 12:27:00]So, I guess I don’t get it. I don’t understand how somebody can take any sincere well wish like “Merry Christmas” or “Eid Mubarak” as insulting[/quote] What does the phrase "Merry Christmas" mean? Its a way of congratulating someone on Christmas, something that I don't practice. As the great scholar Ibn al-Qayyim, may Allaah have mercy on him, said in Ahkaam Ahl al-Dhimmah: "Congratulating the kuffaar on the rituals that belong only to them is haraam by consensus, as is congratulating them on their festivals and fasts by saying ‘A happy festival to you’ or ‘May you enjoy your festival,’ and so on. If the one who says this has been saved from kufr, it is still forbidden. It is like congratulating someone for prostrating to the cross, or even worse than that. It is as great a sin as congratulating someone for drinking wine, or murdering someone, or having illicit sexual relations, and so on. Many of those who have no respect for their religion fall into this error; they do not realize the offensiveness of their actions. Whoever congratulates a person for his disobedience or bid’ah or kufr exposes himself to the wrath and anger of Allaah." I have relatives that are Christian, and one of them asked a few days before Christmas if I celebrate it. I told them I don't. Its clearly forbidden for Muslims to celebrate it or to take part in it. And when they had their celebrations I didn't attend it nor did I participate in it. They do understand there are problems with Christianity that they are trying to deal with. Dude, there is a question I have for you, that I mean to ask a few months back, but why aren't you Muslim? ??? |
| Re: Egypt Makes Christmas a National Holiday |
|---|
| ltcorpest2 |
| 01/16/03 at 00:14:01 |
| I think saying merry Christmas is the equivalant to saying happy Birthday. It is like saying have a happy 4th or or have a great weekend when you leave work on friday or saying happy birthday to a colleage or friend. While it is a fairly important holiday for my family and since we (my household) are the only ones that religion plays a significant role in our lives , we try to direct it in the most positive ways. But while I believe that Jesus' birth was a fairly significant day, I would think that most christians would put Easter way way above as a religious holiday and would hold that as the most important holiday. Bahloo, if it is wrong to say those things I understand, but maybe you can give some evidence as to why and where it states that, it would be appreciated. that was some intesting analogies about saying merry Christmas to drinking wine or murder or illicit sexual relations. not sure I would have picked those but that is what makes this an interesting world. I was wondering is it harram to go to a christian or other religious service and maybe in what circumstances would it be Ok? As for example if a friend asks you to go to his church and he would reciprocate in turn, would you go? |
| Re: Egypt Makes Christmas a National Holiday |
|---|
| UmmWafi |
| 01/16/03 at 03:36:01 |
| [slm] I am interested in two aspects of this particular thread. One is, why did the author choose to start a thread of this nature in Ummah Community Centre. I would be very keen to discover the author's thoughts and opinions on such an issue (if it is an issue) beyond just cut and paste. Second, I would be extremely interested to see what comes of this thread eventually. Now, I shall do some speculations of my own. The thread is about a supposedly Muslim country (I shudder to use the word Islamic country) declaing a decidedly Christian-based celebration as a national holiday. Now, there can be two reasons for such a thread to be posted in the Ummah. One is the fact that the author (or more accurately the paster) finds that such an event should be of interest and concern to the Ummah for either negative or positive reasons. Second, the author/paster merely wants us to have a good read while resting from the Amazing Race. As option two is perhaps not accurate, let us now consider reason one. Why would an event such as this be of interest and importance to the Muslim Ummah and in what way and light ? Personally, this declaration holds little or no interest and importance to me. As the world in general and the Muslim community in particular gravitates steadily towards escalating violence and chaos, there are several fundamental (ooppss I mentioned the F word) questions we need to answer, or at least understand. One is, exactly how competent and prepared are we in facing future possible attacks on our Deen and bastions of faith ? An honest and quick assessment on activities and progress (sic) of events since 9/11 by Muslim leaders (and I am being veeeryyy generous here) , Muslim organisations and the Muslim world in general, yields a very disturbing result. Basically Muslims in general (note I mentioned in general so please dont jump at me on specifics) are trapped in a quagmire of confusion, anger, hurt and fear. Very strong emotions. Very powerful too. Yet, what is even more disturbing is the fact that Muslim powers (again the definition must be taken liberally) lack an essential ingredient sorely needed to ensure victory in any campaign : hikmah or wisdom. Lest you think I have veered very much off the topic as I have been accused of in the past ( ;D) let me assure you that I am still in focus. Let us re-examine the issue. What is fundamentally (the F word again) at stake ? Hmm..anyone care to tell me ? Our honour ? Our dignity ? Our pride ? Seriously, I fail to know. Perhaps we can look at the various ways of interpreting this event. From a fiqh stance, how would the 'ulama respond to this based on the Revelations and the sunnahs ? I am very sure they would be vey involved in a very comprehensive legal exposition of the matter. But, what say the people of Sauf ? They would tell you to go back to the basic and look for the answer in your soul. You see, they believe in one very simple yet profound principle. The right and wrong of something very much depends on how it affects your spiritual development and journey towards hayat al-Haq. Declaring Christmas as a national holiday is the very least (if at all) of Egypt's assumed crimes. Compared to her failure to be effective and prominent in defusing the many explosive and detrimental situation that marred, insulted and decried the sanctity of Islam and Muslims ( think compliance of half-baked UN-led plans etc ), this is absolutely nothing. It's just a move to allow some people to celebrate their beliefs as they deemed fit without harming Islam in general. Oh wait, this sounds familiar. Ah yes, tolerance, I believe was the ordr of the day during the time of the Prophet [saw]. With due respect to Uncle Hanif (still with one F), I can understand the disappointment of many Muslims on the reception of such a news ( talk about timing eh). However, let us all exercise hikmah and see how such situations can work positively for us. For example in our public education programmes we can emphasise how a state run on a seemingly intolerant religion allows for harmonious relationship amongst its populations as opposed to places that shouts slogans of democracy and freedom and yet failed to practise the same. At a time when Islam is being painted and accused of so many vile things, hikmah is needed to persevere and win. Angry words over small scuffles are a waste of time when we consider that we have bigger battles to win, Insya'Allah. As for the few who demand that Muslims show the same respect as they have been showed, by all means we will. Except we have not been shown respect. Nevertheless we will, as we had in the past and as we will continue to do so, ignore the many condescensions shown to us and maintain adab, as required of us and as perfected by our beloved Prophet [saw] With regards to the bombing of Mecca and Medina (na'udzubillah), that is nothing short of stupid and suicidal. Anyone with the least modicum of knowledge abt Islam and Muslims would know the significance of the Ka'abah to us with regards to our faith. Unless of course anyone has seen Muslims going around with the locket of a Ka'abah at the end of their necklace, either as a sign of faith or as the latest rap accessories. Ka'abah is representative of unity of worship, it was never worshipped. Wassalam Famous last words : When we are wished Merry Christmas by anyone, for heaven's sake just smile. It won't kill ya. |
| 01/16/03 at 03:45:44 |
| UmmWafi |
| Re: Egypt Makes Christmas a National Holiday |
|---|
| Halima |
| 01/16/03 at 08:36:37 |
| UmmWafi, "I am interested in two aspects of this particular thread. One is, why did the author choose to start a thread of this nature in Ummah Community Centre. I would be very keen to discover the author's thoughts and opinions on such an issue (if it is an issue) beyond just cut and paste. Second, I would be extremely interested to see what comes of this thread eventually". [color=Green][/color]My response: I live in a country the majority are Christians yet we the Muslim minority are well respected because we are part of the fabric of the society in this country. Also, I work in a multicultural, multireligious organization. Except for one incident after Sep. 11, my religion is respected. I expect and demand that my religion be respected both by my government and the organizaition I work for. Hence both Muslims and non-Muslims in the country and at my place of work wish me Eid Mubarak on both Eids. And they just don't say it, they mean it. And then I saw this article which surprised me because I considered Egypt a Muslim country, period! I decided to post it at the Umma board because it where world issues and things which interest the Umma are posted/discussed. Because I wanted to get the feelings/thoughts of other Muslims about it. "Now, I shall do some speculations of my own. The thread is about a supposedly Muslim country (I shudder to use the word Islamic country) declaing a decidedly Christian-based celebration as a national holiday. Now, there can be two reasons for such a thread to be posted in the Ummah. One is the fact that the author (or more accurately the paster) finds that such an event should be of interest and concern to the Ummah for either negative or positive reasons. Second, the author/paster merely wants us to have a good read while resting from the Amazing Race". [color=Maroon][/color]Well, I am not resting from the race. I read everybody's response and I am actually learning from each. People are entitled to their opinions. What is not important to you may be to me. I am absorbing the sentiments of Muslims sisters and brothers. And whether we like it or not, we have to co-exist with people of other faiths. I have no problem with that so long as my religion is not attacked. I do not take any bullshit from anybody who attacks my religion or tells me that I am in the wrong religion. If I demand respect, I should give it back. It is a two way street. Believe it or not, Muslims here do take Islam bashing lying down or keeping quiet. We are a minority with a voice. "As option two is perhaps not accurate, let us now consider reason one. Why would an event such as this be of interest and importance to the Muslim Ummah and in what way and light ? Personally, this declaration holds little or no interest and importance to me. As the world in general and the Muslim community in particular gravitates steadily towards escalating violence and chaos, there are several fundamental (ooppss I mentioned the F word) questions we need to answer, or at least understand. One is, exactly how competent and prepared are we in facing future possible attacks on our Deen and bastions of faith ? An honest and quick assessment on activities and progress (sic) of events since 9/11 by Muslim leaders (and I am being veeeryyy generous here) , Muslim organisations and the Muslim world in general, yields a very disturbing result. Basically Muslims in general (note I mentioned in general so please dont jump at me on specifics) are trapped in a quagmire of confusion, anger, hurt and fear. Very strong emotions. Very powerful too. Yet, what is even more disturbing is the fact that Muslim powers (again the definition must be taken liberally) lack an essential ingredient sorely needed to ensure victory in any campaign : hikmah or wisdom." [color=Blue][/color]And wishing somebody Merry Christmas does make me less of a Muslim. Wisdom entails looking at the coin on both sides. Our Prophet [saw] talked of co-existence, being tolerant and good neighbourliness including those of other faiths. So, let's exercise the Hikmah and Wisdom the way Rasullah [saw] did. Let's not be hippocrates either. Wasalaam. Halima |
| Re: Egypt Makes Christmas a National Holiday |
|---|
| UmmWafi |
| 01/16/03 at 10:49:59 |
| Assalamu'alaikum wr wb [quote][color=Blue][/color]And wishing somebody Merry Christmas does make me less of a Muslim. Wisdom entails looking at the coin on both sides. Our Prophet [saw] talked of co-existence, being tolerant and good neighbourliness including those of other faiths. So, let's exercise the Hikmah and Wisdom the way Rasullah [saw] did. Let's not be hippocrates either.[/quote] I am afraid I misunderstood. Are u saying wishing somebody Merry Christmas does make u less of a Muslim ? Your reiteration of the point abt co-existence and tolerance etc, where in my post did I disagree with that ? Ahhh hippocrites. Please enlighten us what to you is being hippocritical and how we can all not be hippocritical. Bearing in mind, I refrained from responding in the original Christmas thread and summarily made a one liner abt it here. Thank you for your contributions. Wassalam |
| 01/16/03 at 11:45:06 |
| UmmWafi |
| Re: Egypt Makes Christmas a National Holiday |
|---|
| Dude |
| 01/16/03 at 10:59:43 |
| Bhaloo, You asked me why I’m not Muslim (I’m assuming you think I’m Christian). The reason is because I don’t believe in many aspects of Islam. I grew up Catholic, attending catechism and an Irish Catholic Church, but I’m not currently a practicing Catholic either, for the same reasons: I don’t believe in all the aspects. There are certain aspects of both Christianity and Islam that I find believable, and I do buy in to most of the pillars and commandments (although giving up pork in the household has been pure torture. Ummmm….bacon….arghrarghrarghrarghrarghrarghrarghr…..). ;) ;D I am definitely not atheist, more agnostic…I have spiritual belief, and I believe that if your good, you go to heaven, and if you’re bad, you’ll fry in hell. I believe that God has a day of judgment for everyone, and it is everyone’s responsibility to be the best person they can be to themselves, their family, and their fellow human. I know, pretty basic…let’s just say I’m still searching for a faith I can believe in, or find comfort in my own. For example, I have real trouble with this: [quote]"Congratulating the kuffaar on the rituals that belong only to them is haraam by consensus, as is congratulating them on their festivals and fasts by saying ‘A happy festival to you’ or ‘May you enjoy your festival,’ and so on. If the one who says this has been saved from kufr, it is still forbidden. It is like congratulating someone for prostrating to the cross, or even worse than that. It is as great a sin as congratulating someone for drinking wine, or murdering someone, or having illicit sexual relations, and so on. Many of those who have no respect for their religion fall into this error; they do not realize the offensiveness of their actions. Whoever congratulates a person for his disobedience or bid’ah or kufr exposes himself to the wrath and anger of Allaah."[/quote] I also have real problems with anybody who justifies violence for religious reasons. Christians, Muslims, and Jews have all been the biggest perpetrators of violent acts and terrorism, as history has shown. Both Christians and Muslims will argue that those who commit violent acts in the name of religion aren’t truly faithful to that religion, but the problem is that in their minds, they are. And there are far too many devoutly religious believers / groups in this world that find it acceptable to take another’s life, simply on the basis that they have different beliefs. I can’t bring myself to be tied to any religion that has been associated with the slaughter of fellow humans in the name of religion. I log on here so that I can get a broader understanding of true Muslim beliefs, and a wide spectrum. Great discussion too. Don’t take my personal beliefs as insults- some of the people closet to me (from Muslims, to Jews, to Christians, to Buddhists) are devout believers in their religions, and they lead exemplary lives. I also have life-long friends whom are atheist or agnostic (like I am) whom also lead exemplary lives. I personally believe to should follow people for the example they set, regardless of their spiritual beliefs. At the end of the day, I truly believe God will judge everyone equally on his or her individual “balance sheet”, regardless of religion. |
| Re: Egypt Makes Christmas a National Holiday |
|---|
| Halima |
| 01/16/03 at 12:08:29 |
| [If I demand respect, I should give it back. It is a two way street. Believe it or not, Muslims here do take Islam bashing lying down or keeping quiet. We are a minority with a voice.] Correction: Should read Muslims here do NOT take Islam bashing lying down or keeping quiet. Which is true as was the case during the allied attack on Afghanistan. Muslims here demonstrated in the streets and talk about it fervently in the media. They outspoken in every aspect regarding their welfare as well as Islam. [I am afraid I misunderstood. Are u saying wishing somebody Merry Christmas does make u less of a Muslim?] YES. [Your reiteration of the point abt co-existence and tolerance etc, where in my post did I disagree with that ?] Your whole attitude implies that. Reading between the lines shades light what not being said outright. [Ahhh hippocrites. Please enlighten us what to you is being hippocritical and how we can all not be hippocritical. ] NOT US, UmmWafi but YOU. Hippocritical here means wanting Muslims to be respected at cost while Muslims should not respect others. NO MAN IS AN ISLAND. And you can disagree with me all you want. It will not affect me one bit. Have a nice day. Halima |
| Re: Egypt Makes Christmas a National Holiday |
|---|
| Abu_Hamza |
| 01/16/03 at 21:12:10 |
| [slm] Subhan Allah. This thread, in some ways, is really a microcosm of all the frequently committed blunders on this message board :) From misunderstandings to misrepresenting to bad da'wah to personal insults. It's all in here. Wow! But without getting into any of that, I just want to point out something which, perhaps, many of us often forget. That is, when it comes to Islamic issues, we don't need to talk about *everything*! There are things that are simply pointless to get into. Why do we have to have an opinion on every single thing? Or do we? The point is, what's the point of discussing whether Egypt's decision of making Christmas a national holiday is a good thing or a bad thing? First, will it change our impression of the Egyptian government? No. But more importantly, is this a discussion that we, as laymen who don't know the basics and objectives of our sharee'ah, can maintain? [Hint: look for the answer by reading this thread again :-[] Look, when (when?) and Islamic state comes into existence, the khaleefah, along with his administration and the fuqahaa [legal scholars and/jurists] and qaadees [judges], would make many decisions depending on the circumstances of his populace. One of these decisions would have to involve how to run the economy of the state. That's when he will decide whether or not the people of his nation would have "official holidays." And *if* there is a decision to have official holidays for the people, then he will decide further which holidays the state will mandate. What exactly the minority rights are going to be will depend on what type of minorities reside in the state, what the nature of their stay in the state is (i.e. legal status) and what kinds of responsibilities they share with other residents of the state. Running a state is no simple task! The sharee'ah, in fact, tells us very *little* about how to run a state. A lot is left to the ijtihaad of the khaleefah and the ulemaa around him. This is why Islamic teachings are a teaching for all times and places. Because there is so much room for growth and adaptation *within* the bounds of the sharee'ah. So whereas the decision of what kinds of holidays the nation should should is made by the khalifah and his administration, and not us. Whereas the khilafah does not exist today! Whereas Egypt is *not* the khilafah, nor is its leader one who is chosen by his people to be their leader, nor its form of government a government based on the tenets of Islam. Whereas most of us are not even scantly learned in the maqaasid [objectives] of the sharee'ah to hold a fruitful - let alone scholarly - discussion on this topic. I say our opinion on this issue really doesn't matter! I wonder if we do have an opinion one way or another, how we would react if we live to see the day when a khilafah is established and thriving on this earth, and the khaleefah decides to enforce a ruling on this issue which goes against our opinon! Scary thought. And we wonder why we don't have a khilafah. Because if we did, we wouldn't have it the next day! Subhan Allah. Wallahu ta'ala a'lam [And Allah knows best]. Wassalamu alaikum wa rahmatullah. |
| Re: Egypt Makes Christmas a National Holiday |
|---|
| bhaloo |
| 01/16/03 at 22:46:09 |
| [slm] Dude, I get the impression that you are very close to becoming a Muslim. [quote author=Dude link=board=ummah;num=1041921408;start=30#31 date=01/16/03 at 10:59:43]Bhaloo, You asked me why I’m not Muslim (I’m assuming you think I’m Christian). The reason is because I don’t believe in many aspects of Islam. I grew up Catholic, attending catechism and an Irish Catholic Church, but I’m not currently a practicing Catholic either, for the same reasons: I don’t believe in all the aspects. [/quote] What aspects of Islam don't you believe in? You'll find that its very close to Christianity and Judaism. Muslims believe in One, Unique, Incomparable God; in the Angels created by Him; in the prophets through whom His revelations were brought to mankind; in the Day of Judgement and individual accountability for actions; in God's complete authority over human destiny and in life after death. Muslims believe in a chain of prophets starting with Adam and including Noah, Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Job, Moses, Aaron, David, Solomon, Elias, Jonah, John the Baptist, and Jesus, peace be upon them. But God's final message to man, a reconfirmation of the eternal message and a summing-up of all that has gone before was revealed to the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) through Gabriel. So you see its a continuation of the message, and is the final revelation. There's even places in the Bible talking about Prophet Muhammad (SAW). I used to read up on a lot of this stuff, its really interesting. [quote] There are certain aspects of both Christianity and Islam that I find believable, and I do buy in to most of the pillars and commandments (although giving up pork in the household has been pure torture. Ummmm….bacon….arghrarghrarghrarghrarghrarghrarghr…..). ;) ;D [/quote] So it sounds like you accept the basics, and are maybe having problems with some of the laws? ??? [quote] I am definitely not atheist, more agnostic…I have spiritual belief, and I believe that if your good, you go to heaven, and if you’re bad, you’ll fry in hell. I believe that God has a day of judgment for everyone, and it is everyone’s responsibility to be the best person they can be to themselves, their family, and their fellow human. I know, pretty basic…let’s just say I’m still searching for a faith I can believe in, or find comfort in my own. For example, I have real trouble with this: [/quote] That's just saying that Muslims aren't allowed to participate in the religious festivals of other religions. You can understand why that is, right? That's something thats based on their religious beliefs. There's no harm at all in Muslims and CHristians and Jews getting together for lunch, dinner, or whatever and having a good time. [quote] I also have real problems with anybody who justifies violence for religious reasons. Christians, Muslims, and Jews have all been the biggest perpetrators of violent acts and terrorism, as history has shown. Both Christians and Muslims will argue that those who commit violent acts in the name of religion aren’t truly faithful to that religion, but the problem is that in their minds, they are. And there are far too many devoutly religious believers / groups in this world that find it acceptable to take another’s life, simply on the basis that they have different beliefs. I can’t bring myself to be tied to any religion that has been associated with the slaughter of fellow humans in the name of religion. [/quote] Look what the Quran says here in Surah 60:8 Allah forbids you not with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just Muslims are allowed to defend and fight back against those that attack them. But should stop when the oppression has ended. Doesn't that make sense? If you think about it, any country in the world that is attacked, wouldn't they want to defend themselves and fight back? [quote] I log on here so that I can get a broader understanding of true Muslim beliefs, and a wide spectrum. Great discussion too. [/quote] We got some pretty fun people on here, some of them are being a little lazy and not posting. ;) [quote] At the end of the day, I truly believe God will judge everyone equally on his or her individual “balance sheet”, regardless of religion. [/quote] Can I ask how you know that? p.s. As a side comment about this Egyptian topic which this thread is supposed to be about. I think most Muslims view Egypt or any other country like Pakistan, saudi arabia, etc. as Muslim countries, when the truth is they are not ruled according to the laws of Islam. So its kind of an eye opener for some people to see things like Christams trees appearing. Its kind of a wake up call for them to maybe re-examine the policies of these countries. If this article woke someone up to what's going on, then alhumdullilah. There's no reason for anyone to get upset and starting fights. We're brothers and sisters here, and we should be working to help each other and trying to better our lives. p.p.s. I was very surprised that Umm Wafi used the F-word. :o |
| Re: Egypt Makes Christmas a National Holiday |
|---|
| UmmWafi |
| 01/16/03 at 23:52:25 |
| Assalamu'alaikum wr wb [quote]Your whole attitude implies that. Reading between the lines shades light what not being said outright. NOT US, UmmWafi but YOU. Hippocritical here means wanting Muslims to be respected at cost while Muslims should not respect others. NO MAN IS AN ISLAND.[/quote] Astarghfirullah, astarghfirullah, astargfirullah. I was always reminded by a very close friend to practise husnuzan. It's difficult sometimes but the benefits outweigh the disadvantages (if any). Thus, it is rather surprising to actually find someone reading between my lines and attitudinal implications to conclude emphatically about something which is rather difficult to know for certain over a medium such as this message board. However, the deed is done. My deepest regret to all readers of this thread if I have offended any and all. I would like to seek your sincere forgiveness for this lapse on my part. Despite the fact my intention and my post content did not state nor imply any sentiments or call for disrespect to non-Muslims, I have apparently been accused of that. My biggest regret is that I have been accused of being a hypocrite which is something the Prophet [saw] abhor at all cost. Astarghfirullah. Should I really come across as being a hypocrite, then again, my apologies for I would then not do justice to presenting myself as a Muslim. May Allah SWT forgive me for being a munafiq, na'udzubillah. At this juncture, perhaps it would be good if I take time off from the board to do sincere muhasabah on all my writings and actions. My very best wishes to all my beautiful akhawat and ikhwan on this board. May Allah continue to Bless you with His Nur so that Jihad, proper Jihad may be carried out. May we all contribute towards realising a world where peace reigns again, Insya'Allah. PS Br Bhaloo, yes the F-word...something that has become dirty no ? PPS Maliha, I will still work with you on the questions for the Amazing Race Insya'Allah though not much help I will be :) PPPS To Sis Barr, thank you for the loan of your PC to type this message. How poetic that this cliffhanger should be typed in an environment that saw me pushing for change. Thank you to for introducing me to this board and for all the love given. Wassalam. |
| 01/16/03 at 23:54:59 |
| UmmWafi |
| Re: Egypt Makes Christmas a National Holiday |
|---|
| jannah |
| 01/17/03 at 05:15:20 |
| [slm] Ummwafi the fault is not yours.. it's mine. Please don't leave. I should have closed this thread a long time ago. I really don't know why I left it open. My only excuse is that I haven't been reading the posts here properly and trying desperately not to make the record of the most thread lockings in one week.. Secondly let me reiterate some rules here... First no one is allowed to insult anyone else - to call them hypocrites or anything else. The sad thing is most arguments nowadays degenerate into personal insults--( this is when a moderator should close a thread - because it is not beneficial discussion and becomes emotions and reactions). And what is even sadder is that people let the insults stop them from doing whatever good they are doing. Thirdly, I cannot figure out what is happenning with the Muslims and NonMuslims on this board. First for the Muslims - true this message board is purposely built for Muslims but there are alot of nonMuslims who wish to contribute, to ask their questions, they want to give their perspective - missionary or just plain curious - don't judge which. They are also part of this board. This means we should not be treating anyone with hostility and we should strive to discuss with them in an unemotional, unreactionary manner. also beware of putting across *your* opinion as *the* opinion of all muslims. if you have a personal opinion make sure everyone knows it is a personal opinion, because if someone nonmuslim finds it offensive or irrational and it becomes a point of contention in understanding/accepting Islam, it is *your* responsibility. For the NonMuslims - if you insult Muslims on a Muslim board it is obvious what reaction you will get. so please make your points, discuss and share your viewpoints but do so in a manner that is with warmth and respect instead of hostility --you'll get a better response and discussion and in turn will be understood better.. I feel like the mother again.. if you can't play nice...you're not allowed to play.. this thread is closed. |
| 01/17/03 at 05:22:39 |
| jannah |
Madinat al-Muslimeen Islamic Message Board |